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#1
22-01-2004, 07:04 PM
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[IBC] Training Black Pine was growth retardant
At 09:56 AM 1/22/04 -0500, Isom, Jeff (EM, PTL) wrote:
I am sure glad that someone finally asked that - I've been wondering about it for some time. It seems that unless you somehow luck out and find some pretty old material, you are stuck waiting for years for it to grow if all you have are slow growing plants. I would love, for example, to get a couple of JBPs. However, I can't afford anything really old and I'm not yet patient enough to wait for 20 years for the thing to get thicker than a pencil. I would love to be pointed in the direction of a fast-growing pine that would give me a similar appearance in a shorter space of time (say 10 year ;-)). I would also think that if it grows faster, larger starter stock would be available at a lesser cost. Plus, if I botch it up I haven't ruined a really old tree! From: Nina Shishkoff ] Hey, it's my turn to be stupid for three minutes: bonsai masters, is it really slow growth that we want in bonsai? In my experience (15 years of being a newbie!), the fast growing trees are the ones you can really train. Slow growing ones (like my mountain hemlock), I had to simply try not to ruin too much. So I'm thinking that a growth retardant isn't very useful in bonsai. Whatcha think? I have some experience with growth retardants. I did some trial testing of SuMagic before it was released. I would have to go back and check the literature, but I don't think it would work on conifers. It worked quite well on Fuchsia and the dreaded Serissa. By worked well, I mean it certainly did retard internode length and reduced leaf size. It's effectiveness for bonsai is still questionable in my mind. Contrary to the effect of some of the other growth retardants, SuMagic made Fuchsia and Serissa flower like mad. If there is a place for growth retardants in bonsai, it would be in the final stages where small leaf size and tight internodes are desired. It can certainly achieve that. The problem is that the response is difficult to control and varies greatly with species and even cultivars, so you have to know the the response beforehand to determine the dosage. This means that you would have to have some victims to practice on. The other problem is that the response is short lived and without continued use, the plant will revert to its prior leaf size and internode length. This would be mightily unsightly in a bonsai. I created some really Frankensteinish little Serissa. They looked like dwarfs that found the steroid bottle. Apart from the problems, and the potential for good effects, I would never use the stuff for bonsai. To me it just takes all the fun out of achieving satisfying results through pruning and other, more organic, approaches. Now, this comes from someone who has an economic interest in developing prebonsai as quickly as possible. Which leads me to the next subject: how do you achieve both satisfying fine growth and large caliper and taper at the same time for difficult species like conifers? First of all, it ain't easy. Second, it isn't intuitive either. I can't tell you how many pages I have written about pine growth and responses to pruning, etc. in response to inquiring minds. If you want fast growth (and results), it's hard to beat black pine, Pinus thunbergii. I have seen monster trees in landscapes around here, four foot internodes (that's less than one years growth) nearly two inches thick. So, they have the potential, but how do you rectify that ability to grow with the need for 2 inch needles and 1 inch internodes? In short, the easiest, most direct, and clearest approach is the use of sacrifice branches and all its attendant requirements. I can't tell you how many pines I have seen in person, in galleries, in shows, in email, that are basically sticks in pots. And unless, they are planted out and allowed to grow, in ten years they will be...sticks in pots. Black pines in training should not be allowed to see anything approaching a bonsai pot for at least five to ten years for shohin (1 1/2 to 2 inch trunk caliper, 10 inches tall), up to 20 to 30 years and 20 gallon pots (or inground) for larger plants up to 6 inch caliper, 3 feet tall. I have covered a lot of this ground in the articles on Pines at my website, but briefly I will review the use of sacrifice branches to achieve fast results. Before you get to use sacrifice branches effectively, you first have to spend about five years preparing seedlings to be one and two gallon prebonsai. That's another couple of pages, but is covered at the website pretty thoroughly. Once you have a 12 to 16 inch tall pine seedling that is covered top to bottom with both nodal AND internodal branches (no 6 inch internodes!) you can start using sacrifices. Sacrifice branches do TWO things. They thicken and strengthen the trunk up to their point of attachment. That's the obvious result. The other, not so obvious result, is that they WEAKEN branches and growth above them. Therein lies the secret to achieving tremendous growth and refined branching _at the same time_ in black pines. Once you have achieved the trunk line you desire (oh how easily he said that), you can use sacrifice branches strategically to increase _caliper_ AND _taper_ AND still be able to develop well ramified branching. You start in the top of the tree, but not the apex, so you have to define the apex first. Grow a sacrifice under the apex. This has been the hardest lesson for my apprentice to learn: when to stop. You HAVE to remove this sacrifice when this section of the tree has approached the final caliper for THIS position in the tree. Otherwise, you a too fat top and the only thing you can do is grow a bigger 'tree'. Next, after this is achieved, you move DOWN a position and thicken the next section LOWER. This is how you get taper. Stop when this section is near finished caliper and cut out the sacrifice. Proceed to the next section. Now you should be getting close to the bottom. The final sacrifice (if you are lucky) will in or near the nebari. You can let this one grow as long as you like, except that you have to remember that the scar has to be healed over at some point, so you want that to happen at least a few years before you die in most cases. Now, I didn't say so above, because I didn't want to confuse you, but you can grow lower and upper sacrifices at the same time. But, you must not violate the cardinal principles of removing sacrifices when they have done their job of increasing caliper for that section or when they begin to create problems of their own. You must not allow sacrifices to create reverse taper (a bulge). You must not allow sacrifces to overly weaken the final branches surrounding or above it. You must allow sufficient time for visable scars to heal. Sacrifices should NOT be pruned. Remove all the needles and side branches in the area of the 'tree' so it is not shaded and the sacrifice is easily identified (in the beginning it is easy to forget). These can grow it as long as you like to do the job, six, ten, twelve, sixteen feet, it doesn't matter, as long as you don't violate the principles above. You will often find that it is necessary to stake large sacrifice branches to keep them from pulling the plant over. Very early in the training, usually beginning after the one to two gallon size (and the trunk line is established), you HAVE to begin identifying possible final branches of the 'tree', as well as identifying sacrifice branches. These final branch possibilities are treated just like finished pine bonsai branches (almost). You prune out the candles in summer at the appropriate time, then reduce the resultant secondary branching to a forked branch in winter (the side branch for that position, and the branch extension). You really don't have to get into the 'trick' stuff like needle plucking, but you do want to keep the old dead needles combed out so that the interior stays open and healthy. You can also simply shear needles shorter to introduce more air and light, who cares, nobody is going to see this tree but you. Do NOT remove ANY potential final branches until they become a problem (too fat, utterly useless, in the way of a better branch, etc), and be sure that they CANNOT be used as a potential sacrifice before you remove them. It's amazing how you can change your mind over the years as you and your 'tree' grow. Alternate heavy (shaping) pruning years with light (maintenance only) pruning years to keep your plant growing strongly. Don't let it become rootbound and feed it like mad. It's the busy season for me now, but I hope to get some pictures up in the gallery of various large black pines in training using the above techniques. These pines are about about 15 to 20 years old and have trunk calipers of about 2 to 6 inches. They would be a lot farther along by this point, but they were initially 'rescued' pines and required about five years of corrective work before they reached the point where I could apply the above principles. The rescue techniques would make another interesting article for another time. All is not lost for larger nursery pines, but it ain't easy either. I was also busy trying to understand pines during this 20year period. Growth retardants? Nah, this is way too much fun the way it is. Brent in Northern California Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14 http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mark Zimmerman++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#2
22-01-2004, 08:37 PM
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[IBC] Training Black Pine was growth retardant
snip These pines are about about 15 to 20 years old and have trunk
calipers of about 2 to 6 inches. They would be a lot farther along by this point, but they were initially 'rescued' pines and required about five years of corrective work before they reached the point where I could apply the above principles. The rescue techniques would make another interesting article for another time. All is not lost for larger nursery pines, but it ain't easy either. snip Brent - since you are busy, could you just briefly describe the initial steps (the kind of nursery tree that can be rescued, and generally what you did for the 5 years of corrective work) to prepping a nursery tree to apply the principles you outlined in your last response. Then, since it'll take 5 years until I need to know more - you can write the rest of the article at your leisure ;-) Thanks, Jeff Isom Cleveland, OH / Sunset Zone 39 (where it is snowing and single digit temps, so NOT a busy time for Bonsai!) ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mark Zimmerman++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#3
22-01-2004, 08:52 PM
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[IBC] Training Black Pine was growth retardant
snip These pines are about about 15 to 20 years old and have trunk
calipers of about 2 to 6 inches. They would be a lot farther along by this point, but they were initially 'rescued' pines and required about five years of corrective work before they reached the point where I could apply the above principles. The rescue techniques would make another interesting article for another time. All is not lost for larger nursery pines, but it ain't easy either. snip Brent - since you are busy, could you just briefly describe the initial steps (the kind of nursery tree that can be rescued, and generally what you did for the 5 years of corrective work) to prepping a nursery tree to apply the principles you outlined in your last response. Then, since it'll take 5 years until I need to know more - you can write the rest of the article at your leisure ;-) Thanks, Jeff Isom Cleveland, OH / Sunset Zone 39 (where it is snowing and single digit temps, so NOT a busy time for Bonsai!) ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mark Zimmerman++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#4
22-01-2004, 08:54 PM
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[IBC] Training Black Pine was growth retardant
snip These pines are about about 15 to 20 years old and have trunk
calipers of about 2 to 6 inches. They would be a lot farther along by this point, but they were initially 'rescued' pines and required about five years of corrective work before they reached the point where I could apply the above principles. The rescue techniques would make another interesting article for another time. All is not lost for larger nursery pines, but it ain't easy either. snip Brent - since you are busy, could you just briefly describe the initial steps (the kind of nursery tree that can be rescued, and generally what you did for the 5 years of corrective work) to prepping a nursery tree to apply the principles you outlined in your last response. Then, since it'll take 5 years until I need to know more - you can write the rest of the article at your leisure ;-) Thanks, Jeff Isom Cleveland, OH / Sunset Zone 39 (where it is snowing and single digit temps, so NOT a busy time for Bonsai!) ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mark Zimmerman++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#5
22-01-2004, 09:00 PM
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[IBC] Training Black Pine was growth retardant
snip These pines are about about 15 to 20 years old and have trunk
calipers of about 2 to 6 inches. They would be a lot farther along by this point, but they were initially 'rescued' pines and required about five years of corrective work before they reached the point where I could apply the above principles. The rescue techniques would make another interesting article for another time. All is not lost for larger nursery pines, but it ain't easy either. snip Brent - since you are busy, could you just briefly describe the initial steps (the kind of nursery tree that can be rescued, and generally what you did for the 5 years of corrective work) to prepping a nursery tree to apply the principles you outlined in your last response. Then, since it'll take 5 years until I need to know more - you can write the rest of the article at your leisure ;-) Thanks, Jeff Isom Cleveland, OH / Sunset Zone 39 (where it is snowing and single digit temps, so NOT a busy time for Bonsai!) ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mark Zimmerman++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#6
23-01-2004, 01:11 AM
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[IBC] Training Black Pine was growth retardant
At 02:30 PM 1/22/04 -0500, Isom, Jeff (EM, PTL) wrote:
snip These pines are about about 15 to 20 years old and have trunk calipers of about 2 to 6 inches. They would be a lot farther along by this point, but they were initially 'rescued' pines and required about five years of corrective work before they reached the point where I could apply the above principles. The rescue techniques would make another interesting article for another time. All is not lost for larger nursery pines, but it ain't easy either. snip Brent - since you are busy, could you just briefly describe the initial steps (the kind of nursery tree that can be rescued, and generally what you did for the 5 years of corrective work) to prepping a nursery tree to apply the principles you outlined in your last response. Then, since it'll take 5 years until I need to know more - you can write the rest of the article at your leisure ;-) Well, since I'm sitting around with this crappy cold, and not feeling like doing anything productive; I will give it a shot. Basically, the difference between proper pine training (my last post) and rescue work on already large pines, is trunk chops and forcing buds. Yes, I know, pines should never be chopped. But this is only true of cutting back to areas that don't have any foliage (needles). Pines can easily be chopped if you cut back to an existing branch, using that branch for the new trunk line. This can be done even on massive trees. I have removed as much as 90% of a tree's growth in this fashion, but the remaining branch(s) must be strong and healthy for the tree to recover. Working with nursery trees, the larger the tree, the more difficult the job, generally. Usually, the chop will define the tree in a significant way. If you haven't read my article on Trunk Development, I recommend that you do that now, because it outlines the procedure for locating curves and branches on the trunkline. The chop will usually occur in one of these places: the lowest strong (existing) branch, the position of the first or second planned final branch position, or just below the planned apex. These will all give you different trees. There are many, many factors involved in this decision making process. I can't possibly go into them all here, but knowing how to do this effectively is how I can command big bucks for my prebonsai pines. I will start with the simplest case. Let's say you have located a good pine with a 2 to 4 inch caliper trunk that has a remarkably strong low branch at six inches. This would be a great find, and they do exist, although it is more likely to find the first strong branch at a foot to 18 inches. In this case, the entire tree above that branch at six inches is trash. The plan would be to change the trunkline to follow this branch. The entire rest of the tree already exists in this branch or will come from it. Cut off the tree at the upper level of the branch collar with a 90 degree cut (not slanted). If this branch still has needles in the node section closest to the trunk, you are in luck. That means that it will be quite possible to get bud break in this section. If it doesn't have needles, but the next nodal section does, there is a lesser chance, but decent chance that budbreak could still occur under the right conditions (later). You want budbreak in these first two internodal sections for two reasons, even if they are the right lengths for the following two trunk sections: one is to develop sacrifice branches to heal over the massive chop scar and the second is to provide for potential final branches should you decide on a shorter tree. Now, the level of the chop can be one of two things. It can be a low moving strong curve that will give your trunkline really good definition, or it can be the first branch position. If the chop is really low and the caliper is quite large, it is better, in my opinion, to put the first branch at the next chop position higher. For a larger pine, this first curve may be too low to carry the first branch. Secondly, you are betting that you can get a bud to break in the right place on really old wood...not likely. Most of the time it is better to leave this first low curve branchless. After a year, you can carve the right angle cut you left to a slanted hollow cut. The tree will have died back as far down the main trunk as it is ever going to after one year, so you can carve down to live tissue. Ok, the first chop is the low curve. The first branch position will be in one of two places. It will either be in the next node, or it will be in the internode before the next node (between the chop and first whorl). You get to decide. It usually depends on how long this internode is and how tall you want the finished pine to be. You can see that you are already mapping out the final image of the pine. You can actually do this at the nursery before you even touch the tree, and you should. In most cases. The height of the final tree will be about three times the height of the first branch. In pines, a somewhat lower or higher position can still be quite spectacular depending on the trunk movement. The trunkline MUST move in opposition to the first low curve is this scenario, and your first branch must be on the outside of the resulting curve. \ //\ first branch / \ If you can get this first branch out of the first node (whorl), light the incense and say a little prayer of thanks; you just saved yourself about three years work. The next trunk section, the one above the first branch also comes out of the same node as the first branch. You can almost NEVER use the central shoot from the node as the next trunk section, even if it is the right length already. the reason is that the trunk will stop moving. The next trunk section has to come out of the whorl and in opposition to the first branch. You can continue this same process all the way to the top of the 'tree'. However, after the trunk section above the first branch, the initial existing tree is just trash. You will have to grow all the trunk sections from nodes that don't even exist yet and you will have to grow potential branches on these trunk sections at the very same time. Ok, how do you do this? Now you have to know something about pine growth patterns. This is covered extensively in the articles at the website, but briefly... Pines will grow one or more nodal sections a year if left undisturbed. The terminal, or strong end bud forms the leader in an ever lengthening straight line until disturbed or damaged. Where the shoot growth stops, either for the season or intra season, a node (whorl) forms and side branches develop from these secondary buds. These radiate around the leader/main shoot. This is shorter, weaker growth. It is kept weak by the dominance of the terminal bud. If you remove the terminal bud, or the shoot it produces, you release the buds and growth in the node below it. The effect mostly stops there. So more buds will break from the node, some of them already existing will open, other dormant buds will form and they too will sometimes open. The effect below the node is minimal, although removing a particularly large strong central shoot will sometimes produced bud break at the next node and sometimes produce internodal bud break. If, instead of just removing the terminal bud/shoot, you remove the NODE as well, you will very often get INTERNODAL bud break. Since this growth comes from dormant buds BETWEEN the needles, rather than existing buds, the resulting growth is JUVENILE. This funny growth will be bluish green and usually wavy. It will return to normal mature growth in a year or two. The best time to do this is midsummer. At that time, you will get the strongest response in the shortest period of time. I do all my heaviest pruning of pines the first week of July (Northern CA). In areas with shorter seasons, you will have to do this earlier. If you want a REALLY strong response and fuzz brush of internodal bud break, cut all the needles in half in this internodal section. Knowing these techniques allows you to do several things. It allows you to develop internodal growth so that you can shorten the nodal distance where necessary to form shorter trunk sections and shorter branch joints. This is extremely important for rescue work. The other thing it allows you to do, is to take a foxtail situation of long internodes with no needles and to FORCE bud break on old wood. You can literally 'chase' the foliage back to the trunk on what were initially bare branches. There are tons more styling stuff that I could talk about, but these are the basic tools of pine rescue as well as training tools for pines that are already in good shape but still need corrective work. I caution you. You cannot do all these things at once. As I said in the previous post, you alternate strong pruning/shaping years with maintenance years to allow the tree to rest and grow. If you get carried away, it will die. Pines are not deciduous trees. If you don't leave enough foliage and terminal buds on them after pruning to support the trees, they will DIE. This is mostly a matter of experience, so always be sure to err on the side of caution. Brent in Northern California Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14 http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mark Zimmerman++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#7
23-01-2004, 03:41 AM
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[IBC] Training Black Pine was growth retardant
In addition to Brent's great comments would like to suggest that you look at
P. sylvestris (Scots pine), particularly if you want to start with low cost nursery stock. There is really no substitute for buying from a high quality nursery like Evergreen GardenWorks, but if your budget is tight you can often find 1 - 10 gallon Scots pines at the end of season sales with a good size trunk and low branching. I have found that they tend to hold their first branch whorl (often 2 - 4 inches [5 - 10 cm] above the roots) longer than other pines when grown under mass production nursery conditions. If you find one of these, you can cut it back severely and apply the methods that Brent has outlined the branches in the first whorl. However, I suggest that you initially cut back a few inches above the first whorl and allow a season of growth before repotting or other work since these low branches are often very weak - particularly when the pine is a couple of meters tall. Since Scots pine tends to bud back fairly well, grow strongly like P. thunbergiana, and have shorter needles it is becoming my favorite. There also some fantastic Scots pines being developed in Europe which is also encouraging to those like me who like to start from scratch. Marty At 02:30 PM 1/22/04 -0500, Isom, Jeff (EM, PTL) wrote: snip These pines are about about 15 to 20 years old and have trunk calipers of about 2 to 6 inches. They would be a lot farther along by this point, but they were initially 'rescued' pines and required about five years of corrective work before they reached the point where I could apply the above principles. The rescue techniques would make another interesting article for another time. All is not lost for larger nursery pines, but it ain't easy either. snip ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mark Zimmerman++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#8
23-01-2004, 03:41 AM
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[IBC] Training Black Pine was growth retardant
In addition to Brent's great comments would like to suggest that you look at
P. sylvestris (Scots pine), particularly if you want to start with low cost nursery stock. There is really no substitute for buying from a high quality nursery like Evergreen GardenWorks, but if your budget is tight you can often find 1 - 10 gallon Scots pines at the end of season sales with a good size trunk and low branching. I have found that they tend to hold their first branch whorl (often 2 - 4 inches [5 - 10 cm] above the roots) longer than other pines when grown under mass production nursery conditions. If you find one of these, you can cut it back severely and apply the methods that Brent has outlined the branches in the first whorl. However, I suggest that you initially cut back a few inches above the first whorl and allow a season of growth before repotting or other work since these low branches are often very weak - particularly when the pine is a couple of meters tall. Since Scots pine tends to bud back fairly well, grow strongly like P. thunbergiana, and have shorter needles it is becoming my favorite. There also some fantastic Scots pines being developed in Europe which is also encouraging to those like me who like to start from scratch. Marty At 02:30 PM 1/22/04 -0500, Isom, Jeff (EM, PTL) wrote: snip These pines are about about 15 to 20 years old and have trunk calipers of about 2 to 6 inches. They would be a lot farther along by this point, but they were initially 'rescued' pines and required about five years of corrective work before they reached the point where I could apply the above principles. The rescue techniques would make another interesting article for another time. All is not lost for larger nursery pines, but it ain't easy either. snip ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mark Zimmerman++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#9
23-01-2004, 03:44 PM
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[IBC] Training Black Pine was growth retardant
Brent - thanks!!!! And, by the way, I have read every article on your web
site multiple times and have copies saved on my PC. I also copy and save your informative posts like these last two. I'm very appreciative that you are willing to share the knowledge you have gained the painful way - through trial, error and experimentation! Marty - funny you should suggest this... In addition to Brent's great comments would like to suggest that you look at P. sylvestris (Scots pine), particularly if you want to start with low cost nursery stock. I just happen to have a Scots pine on which I was planning to try Brent's methodology. I'd like to practice at least a couple of times on $25 Scots pines before I try it on a $100+ JBP (even the "inexpensive" nursery ones are not all the inexpensive!). I will photograph my progress and post. By the way, when is the "best" time of year to do the initial "chop?" Thanks again! Jeff Isom Cleveland, OH / Sunset Zone 39 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mark Zimmerman++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#10
24-01-2004, 06:32 AM
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[IBC] Training Black Pine was growth retardant
Jeff,
If you are going to leave a fairly long stub as I suggested when you do the chop I would do it in mid winter. That way the end of the stub will dry out a bit so it won't bleed nearly as badly when the tree starts to grow. You can then cut the stub back the following late winter - it will bleed some, but since it is not an active branch/trunk it should not bleed too much. Heavy cuts in pines are generally made in late winter / early spring to allow a little drying before heavy sap flow, but not so much that you get die back into parts you want to keep. That being said I have chopped 4 cm diameter trunks back during peak sap flow and they bleed and end up OK. Finally, make sure the tree is well established when doing the chop. A freshly repotted tree needs all of the branches it has to grow roots and be strong for the upcoming trunk chop. Marty In addition to Brent's great comments would like to suggest that you look at P. sylvestris (Scots pine), particularly if you want to start with low cost nursery stock. I just happen to have a Scots pine on which I was planning to try Brent's methodology. I'd like to practice at least a couple of times on $25 Scots pines before I try it on a $100+ JBP (even the "inexpensive" nursery ones are not all the inexpensive!). I will photograph my progress and post. By the way, when is the "best" time of year to do the initial "chop?" ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Mark Zimmerman++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#11
28-01-2004, 05:42 AM
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[IBC] Training Black Pine was growth retardant
On 22 Jan, Brent Walston wrote:
(snip) If, instead of just removing the terminal bud/shoot, you remove the NODE as well, you will very often get INTERNODAL bud break. Since this growth comes from dormant buds BETWEEN the needles, rather than existing buds, the resulting growth is JUVENILE. This funny growth will be bluish green and usually wavy. It will return to normal mature growth in a year or two. The best time to do this is midsummer. At that time, you will get the strongest response in the shortest period of time. I do all my heaviest pruning of pines the first week of July (Northern CA). In areas with shorter seasons, you will have to do this earlier. If you want a REALLY strong response and fuzz brush of internodal bud break, cut all the needles in half in this internodal section. Knowing these techniques allows you to do several things. It allows you to develop internodal growth so that you can shorten the nodal distance where necessary to form shorter trunk sections and shorter branch joints. This is extremely important for rescue work. The other thing it allows you to do, is to take a foxtail situation of long internodes with no needles and to FORCE bud break on old wood. You can literally 'chase' the foliage back to the trunk on what were initially bare branches. Brent ‹ Concerning this "foxtail" situation, the goal (as I understand it from your description above and elsewhere) is to "chase" the foliage back on a branch that has no foliage by removing the node above the section in question; on the other hand, removing a node on a branch with no foliage on the internode below it will quite likely result in dieback of that branch (at least to the next lower branch). I'm missing something here, I think. Could you clarify? Blake in Houston |
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#13
29-01-2004, 04:12 PM
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[IBC] Training Black Pine was growth retardant
At 05:36 AM 1/28/04 +0000, Blake and Jennifer Wilkins wrote:
On 22 Jan, Brent Walston wrote: (snip) If, instead of just removing the terminal bud/shoot, you remove the NODE as well, you will very often get INTERNODAL bud break. Since this growth comes from dormant buds BETWEEN the needles, rather than existing buds, the resulting growth is JUVENILE. This funny growth will be bluish green and usually wavy. It will return to normal mature growth in a year or two. The best time to do this is midsummer. At that time, you will get the strongest response in the shortest period of time. I do all my heaviest pruning of pines the first week of July (Northern CA). In areas with shorter seasons, you will have to do this earlier. If you want a REALLY strong response and fuzz brush of internodal bud break, cut all the needles in half in this internodal section. Knowing these techniques allows you to do several things. It allows you to develop internodal growth so that you can shorten the nodal distance where necessary to form shorter trunk sections and shorter branch joints. This is extremely important for rescue work. The other thing it allows you to do, is to take a foxtail situation of long internodes with no needles and to FORCE bud break on old wood. You can literally 'chase' the foliage back to the trunk on what were initially bare branches. Brent ‹ Concerning this "foxtail" situation, the goal (as I understand it from your description above and elsewhere) is to "chase" the foliage back on a branch that has no foliage by removing the node above the section in question; on the other hand, removing a node on a branch with no foliage on the internode below it will quite likely result in dieback of that branch (at least to the next lower branch). I'm missing something here, I think. Could you clarify? Blake Right. If there are no needles before the node, you cannot remove it without risk of killing that branch. You must only remove the central bud/shoot and perhaps some of the side shoots leaving enough foliage from the node to keep the branch alive. This should force new buds from the node and will sometimes force one or two internodal buds to break. If it doesn't, all you can do is to let the shoots grow vigorously for a year or two and try the same thing again. Once you get an internodal bud growing strongly, you can remove the node. If you still have to have buds farther back, you continue the process, thus 'chasing' the foliage back. This can take years. Sometimes it just doesn't work and despite your best efforts, you won't get any bud break on the old wood. For this reason, don't get locked into just one design. If you leave all the potential final branches as I recommended earlier, you should be able to develop another 'tree'. Sometimes it will have to be significantly larger, somtimes it can be cut back to a lower branch and significantly smaller. There is rarely just one 'tree' in good material. That is the beauty of well prepared stock, you get to find the best 'tree' out of many choices. I can't stress enough how important it is to have the pine growing vigorously. This means putting it in a good sized pot or in the ground, leaving a lot of foliage, and feeding like mad. Summer seems to be the best time for forcing the kind of growth you need to do this kind of work. Most people get too hung up on the 'bonsai-ness' of the tree to ever successfully train it. Forget bonsai when you are trying to get pines to back bud in the early stages of training. For many years, they will look grotesque, except to those who can appreciate what real potential looks like. Brent in Northern California Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14 http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Marc Zimmerman++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#14
29-01-2004, 09:02 PM
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[IBC] Training Black Pine was growth retardant
---*----*----*
^c ^b ^a OK if the above is a pine branch and you are reading right to left, with the right * being the tip, can you cut only before the second node (represented by the * and ^a )or can you actually cut at ^b if you have needles below? I take it that cutting at ^c probably will kill the branch unless there were needles below that. Kitsune Miko Right. If there are no needles before the node, you cannot remove it without risk of killing that branch. You must only remove the central bud/shoot and perhaps some of the side shoots leaving enough foliage from the node to keep the branch alive. This should force new buds from the node and will sometimes force one or two internodal buds to break. If it doesn't, all you can do is to let the shoots grow vigorously for a year or two and try the same thing again. Once you get an internodal bud growing strongly, you can remove the node. If you still have to have buds farther back, you continue the process, thus 'chasing' the foliage back. This can take years. Sometimes it just doesn't work and despite your best efforts, you won't get any bud break on the old wood. For this reason, don't get locked into just one design. If you leave all the potential final branches as I recommended earlier, you should be able to develop another 'tree'. Sometimes it will have to be significantly larger, somtimes it can be cut back to a lower branch and significantly smaller. There is rarely just one 'tree' in good material. That is the beauty of well prepared stock, you get to find the best 'tree' out of many choices. I can't stress enough how important it is to have the pine growing vigorously. This means putting it in a good sized pot or in the ground, leaving a lot of foliage, and feeding like mad. Summer seems to be the best time for forcing the kind of growth you need to do this kind of work. Most people get too hung up on the 'bonsai-ness' of the tree to ever successfully train it. Forget bonsai when you are trying to get pines to back bud in the early stages of training. For many years, they will look grotesque, except to those who can appreciate what real potential looks like. Brent in Northern California Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14 http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Marc Zimmerman++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Marc Zimmerman++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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#15
30-01-2004, 03:55 PM
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[IBC] Training Black Pine was growth retardant
Hopefully Brent or someone else with actual experience will answer this (or
correct me so that I don't kill a branch this spring).... My understanding is that you can cut a healthy pine at ^b. As long as there are green needles remaining, the branch can be cut and will produce buds - there is always the hope (possibility) that you will get some dormant buds to pop in the ^c area as well. Jeff Isom Cleveland, OH / Sunset Zone 39 snip ---*----*----* ^c ^b ^a OK if the above is a pine branch and you are reading right to left, with the right * being the tip, can you cut only before the second node (represented by the * and ^a )or can you actually cut at ^b if you have needles below? I take it that cutting at ^c probably will kill the branch unless there were needles below that. Kitsune Miko ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Marc Zimmerman++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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