At 11:17 PM 2/15/04 +0000, peter wrote:
i collected a number of paperbark maple seeds (acer griseum) last fall and
stuck them in the freezer over the winter.
i have a couple of questions about getting these seeds to germinate and
hopefully grow into trees (albeit small ones in a pot) in the future.
firstly, what is the ideal medium to sow seeds in?
i have previously tried peat pots but had no luck as it appears that the
peat pots remained so wet that the seeds rotted.
secondly, when would be the best time to sow these seeds?

Peter

Acer griseum can be somewhat difficult. Hopefully they weren't too dry
before you stored them. These have impermeable seed coats, so it is
probably best to nick them first. This is best done with pair of concave
cutters. Take a small slice out of the seed coat without damaging the
kernel inside. I haven't thought about this much, but you probably don't
have to cut all the way through as long as you remove some of that tough
glassy outer shell. All you are trying to do is create a way for water to
get into the seed. This can also be done by soaking the undisturbed seed
coat in Muraitic acid (as it comes from the hardware store for pool or
concrete treatment). Soak for about 15 minutes, then rinse them thoroughly.
Be very careful with acid and follow all the precautions. You only need
enough acid to cover the seed, so don't get carried away.

Next, soak the seed overnight in warm water (it doesn't have to stay warm).
Rinse and repeat this process one or two more times. Drain off all the
excess water. Mix the seed with an equal amount of DRY vermiculite. Put the
mixture in a ziplock bag and then in the refrigerator (NOT freezer). Keep
it there for 3 months. Take the seed out and sow it. The medium doesn't
make a lot of difference as long as doesn't stay too wet. I sow Acer seed
in my regular bonsai mix. Do this outdoors under bright light, but not
direct sunlight (if you have sunlight up there). I place the see on top of
the soil, lightly press it into the mix, then just barely cover it with a
little bit of finer mix or vermiculite or peat moss, enough to keep the
seed moist.

It should germinate within a few weeks. If it doesn't, chance are that the
seed wasn't viable. That's a common problem with Acer griseum. Cut a seed
open with your concave cutters and examine the kernel. Often the seed coat
is empty with this species. If there is a kernel, it should be creamy white
and solid, but not chalky or dry looking. If it is dark and/or very soft
and mushy, it is rotted.

If the seed is still viable after three months, but still not germinated,
return it to the refrigerator for another 3 month moist pretreatment, then
back outside to 70F again. Acer will sometimes require multiple pretreatments.

Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14

http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Marc Zimmerman++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

At 11:17 PM 2/15/04 +0000, peter wrote:
i collected a number of paperbark maple seeds (acer griseum) last fall and
stuck them in the freezer over the winter.
i have a couple of questions about getting these seeds to germinate and
hopefully grow into trees (albeit small ones in a pot) in the future.
firstly, what is the ideal medium to sow seeds in?
i have previously tried peat pots but had no luck as it appears that the
peat pots remained so wet that the seeds rotted.
secondly, when would be the best time to sow these seeds?

Peter

Acer griseum can be somewhat difficult. Hopefully they weren't too dry
before you stored them. These have impermeable seed coats, so it is
probably best to nick them first. This is best done with pair of concave
cutters. Take a small slice out of the seed coat without damaging the
kernel inside. I haven't thought about this much, but you probably don't
have to cut all the way through as long as you remove some of that tough
glassy outer shell. All you are trying to do is create a way for water to
get into the seed. This can also be done by soaking the undisturbed seed
coat in Muraitic acid (as it comes from the hardware store for pool or
concrete treatment). Soak for about 15 minutes, then rinse them thoroughly.
Be very careful with acid and follow all the precautions. You only need
enough acid to cover the seed, so don't get carried away.

Next, soak the seed overnight in warm water (it doesn't have to stay warm).
Rinse and repeat this process one or two more times. Drain off all the
excess water. Mix the seed with an equal amount of DRY vermiculite. Put the
mixture in a ziplock bag and then in the refrigerator (NOT freezer). Keep
it there for 3 months. Take the seed out and sow it. The medium doesn't
make a lot of difference as long as doesn't stay too wet. I sow Acer seed
in my regular bonsai mix. Do this outdoors under bright light, but not
direct sunlight (if you have sunlight up there). I place the see on top of
the soil, lightly press it into the mix, then just barely cover it with a
little bit of finer mix or vermiculite or peat moss, enough to keep the
seed moist.

It should germinate within a few weeks. If it doesn't, chance are that the
seed wasn't viable. That's a common problem with Acer griseum. Cut a seed
open with your concave cutters and examine the kernel. Often the seed coat
is empty with this species. If there is a kernel, it should be creamy white
and solid, but not chalky or dry looking. If it is dark and/or very soft
and mushy, it is rotted.

If the seed is still viable after three months, but still not germinated,
return it to the refrigerator for another 3 month moist pretreatment, then
back outside to 70F again. Acer will sometimes require multiple pretreatments.

Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14

http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Marc Zimmerman++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

brent, thank you for the thorough advice. i have always looked forward to
reading your postings for the past few years. although now i have a couple
of more questions:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brent Walston"
Newsgroups: rec.arts.bonsai
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2004 4:15 PM
Subject: [IBC] starting trees from seed


At 11:17 PM 2/15/04 +0000, peter wrote:
i collected a number of paperbark maple seeds (acer griseum) last fall
and
stuck them in the freezer over the winter.
i have a couple of questions about getting these seeds to germinate and
hopefully grow into trees (albeit small ones in a pot) in the future.
firstly, what is the ideal medium to sow seeds in?
i have previously tried peat pots but had no luck as it appears that
the
peat pots remained so wet that the seeds rotted.
secondly, when would be the best time to sow these seeds?

Peter

..

Next, soak the seed overnight in warm water (it doesn't have to stay
warm).
Rinse and repeat this process one or two more times. Drain off all the
excess water. Mix the seed with an equal amount of DRY vermiculite. Put
the
mixture in a ziplock bag and then in the refrigerator (NOT freezer). Keep

have i destroyed these seeds by overwintering them in my freezer? even if
they were in a plastic bag?

it there for 3 months. Take the seed out and sow it. The medium doesn't
make a lot of difference as long as doesn't stay too wet. I sow Acer seed
in my regular bonsai mix. Do this outdoors under bright light, but not
direct sunlight (if you have sunlight up there). I place the see on top of
the soil, lightly press it into the mix, then just barely cover it with a
little bit of finer mix or vermiculite or peat moss, enough to keep the
seed moist.



should i begin this 3 month process right now or wait until next year with
another batch of seeds that have been properly prepared?
if i place the seeds in the fridge for 3 months i will not be sowing them
until almost june which seems rather late in the year to me. i can always
collect some more seed next fall and begin the process in the manner you
recommend, but i would still like to attempt with the seeds i have.
btw, i have never had any success with propogation from cuttings with acer
griseum and i was wondering if you had any advice for rooting from cuttings.
thanks for all the help.
peter

At 03:27 AM 2/16/04 +0000, peter wrote:
brent, thank you for the thorough advice. i have always looked forward to
reading your postings for the past few years. although now i have a couple
of more questions:

have i destroyed these seeds by overwintering them in my freezer? even if
they were in a plastic bag?

Peter
Not necessarily. Keeping seeds in the freezer is a common method of long
term storage. In general, seeds need to be somewhat dry before freeze
storage, but this level of dryness is often a problem for some species,
particular some Acer species which are best germinated fresh. Acer rubrum
cannot be dried or stored at all, but must be sown fresh or it dies. I
don't know where A. griseum lies in this spectrum. In general, there is not
a lot of solid scientific evidence in this area. Norman Deno's work on seed
germination is very good if you are interested in persuing it further.

Keep it there for 3 months. Take the seed out and sow it. The medium doesn't
make a lot of difference as long as doesn't stay too wet. I sow Acer seed
in my regular bonsai mix. Do this outdoors under bright light, but not
direct sunlight (if you have sunlight up there). I place the see on top of
the soil, lightly press it into the mix, then just barely cover it with a
little bit of finer mix or vermiculite or peat moss, enough to keep the
seed moist.



should i begin this 3 month process right now or wait until next year with
another batch of seeds that have been properly prepared?
if i place the seeds in the fridge for 3 months i will not be sowing them
until almost june which seems rather late in the year to me. i can always
collect some more seed next fall and begin the process in the manner you
recommend, but i would still like to attempt with the seeds i have.

I would do it now. I only started the pretreatment of all my seed a few
weeks ago. I am expecting to sow in early May. It's difficult to get last
season's seed any earlier than this from most commercial seed suppliers.
Fresher is always better when it come to Acer seeds. You won't have
invested much by starting now with the seed that you have and seeing what
happens. Do check the seed to make sure they aren't empty before you start.

btw, i have never had any success with propogation from cuttings with acer
griseum and i was wondering if you had any advice for rooting from cuttings.
thanks for all the help.

I haven't tried any cuttings of A. griseum. Dirr and Heuser state that it
is extremely difficult and perhaps impossible, so that doesn't sound too
good. On the other hand, some folks do get fairly good results from seed.
It is a matter of learning the tricks. All species have their little
excentricities. You just have to figure them out.

Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14

http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Marc Zimmerman++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++