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On 21 Nov 2004 at 9:58, Theo wrote:
Hi I normally give some microelements mixed with the repotting soil and sometimes I sprinkle some this period of the year on the surface but when is the best period and how often shouldl micro elements be given to the bonsai ? once per ear twice ? more often .. I agree it all depends about the retention of the soil and the washing of the same for strong rains any advice? Thanks The best way is to fertilize with a fertilizer that already contains microelements, since trees need and use them all year long (even hibernating trees need their sustenance). But they don't need MUCH of any one of them -- fractions of a percent per unit of fertilizer/water -- and adding microelements yourself to trees in small pots can easily overdose them. Once a year, assuming your bonsai soil is a free-draining mix would be far to little; the stuff would vanish in a day or two, and I do not know how efficiently trees' roots take up the minor elements. So, I'd recommend a fertilizer that contains it all so that your trees have what they need throughout the year. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Bonsaiests are like genealogists: We know our roots! ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#2
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Yeah, Jim, the word should be written:
"MICRO-elements", so that everyone would know that the emphasis is on first syllable. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Lewis" To: Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 9:29 AM Subject: [IBC] Microelemnts On 21 Nov 2004 at 9:58, Theo wrote: Hi I normally give some microelements mixed with the repotting soil and sometimes I sprinkle some this period of the year on the surface but when is the best period and how often shouldl micro elements be given to the bonsai ? once per ear twice ? more often .. I agree it all depends about the retention of the soil and the washing of the same for strong rains any advice? Thanks The best way is to fertilize with a fertilizer that already contains microelements, since trees need and use them all year long (even hibernating trees need their sustenance). But they don't need MUCH of any one of them -- fractions of a percent per unit of fertilizer/water -- and adding microelements yourself to trees in small pots can easily overdose them. Once a year, assuming your bonsai soil is a free-draining mix would be far to little; the stuff would vanish in a day or two, and I do not know how efficiently trees' roots take up the minor elements. So, I'd recommend a fertilizer that contains it all so that your trees have what they need throughout the year. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Bonsaiests are like genealogists: We know our roots! ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#3
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I don't know why we are discussing this; what Jim said is completely
accurate. Bonsai represent a special way of raising plants without natural soil. In such a situation, micronutrients are necessary all year long because the trees have no way to get them unless they are added exogenously. Since bonsai soils don't store much nutrient, the fertilizer needs to be added all the time. NPK fertilizers are meant to add the top 3 limiting nutrients to soils that otherwise DO NOT LACK for fertility. I always use a full fertilizer complement with my bonsai because I keep them in turface, bark and grani-grit, a mixture that lacks micronutrients. Nina, who is putting her trees in winter storage, except that crummy abutilon and her pathetic collection of indoor bonsai. |
#4
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On 23 Nov 2004 at 8:05, Nina Shishkoff wrote:
I don't know why we are discussing this; what Jim said is completely accurate. Wow! It had to happen sometime! ;-) But I know why . . . It's 'cause we're basically "garden people." Garden people have never ever been able to pass up the "majic" elixir of the day, week, month, year, or millennium. If it promises pumpkins you can make a coach and four out of they'll buy two batches! And then, of course, they have to pass this "secret" on to their neighbors. That's how Superthrive (among others) stays in business. So many products are sold to home gardeners under totally false premises (if not pretenses) that there oughta be a law. Buyer beware! Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#5
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Nina
I have not been able to understand why you people do not add natural soil to the Bonsai compost! I don't think it can really create problems when coarse ingredients like turface, grit and bark are there in the mix. Soil provides the basic nutrition to the plants and in fact all flora grow in soil. Or is there some other reason for using the soiless compost? In India we use coarse sand/grit, fertile soil and coarse manure in equal parts and all the plants grow well. Yes we do provide the three meals i.e. breakfast, lunch and dinner. I add organic fertilizer *Sterameal* which is a mixture of bonemeal, hornmeal, hoofmeal, bloodmeal and some more organic ingredients; three times a year, once in spring second time in mid summer and then in autumn. Being a slow release fertilizer, it dissolves slowly providing macro as well as micro elements. Please answer the first sentence. Regards Anil Kaushik Bonsai Club (India) Chandigarh "The City Beautiful" I don't know why we are discussing this; what Jim said is completely accurate. Bonsai represent a special way of raising plants without natural soil. In such a situation, micronutrients are necessary all year long because the trees have no way to get them unless they are added exogenously. Since bonsai soils don't store much nutrient, the fertilizer needs to be added all the time. NPK fertilizers are meant to add the top 3 limiting nutrients to soils that otherwise DO NOT LACK for fertility. I always use a full fertilizer complement with my bonsai because I keep them in turface, bark and grani-grit, a mixture that lacks micronutrients. Nina, who is putting her trees in winter storage, except that crummy abutilon and her pathetic collection of indoor bonsai. ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#6
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I guess the climate is different as well the species of trees you grow
and their growing season , most probaly is all year round, or more than in cold climates like Ny or north europe Anil Kaushik wrote: Nina I have not been able to understand why you people do not add natural soil to the Bonsai compost! I don't think it can really create problems when coarse ingredients like turface, grit and bark are there in the mix. Soil provides the basic nutrition to the plants and in fact all flora grow in soil. Or is there some other reason for using the soiless compost? In India we use coarse sand/grit, fertile soil and coarse manure in equal parts and all the plants grow well. Yes we do provide the three meals i.e. breakfast, lunch and dinner. I add organic fertilizer *Sterameal* which is a mixture of bonemeal, hornmeal, hoofmeal, bloodmeal and some more organic ingredients; three times a year, once in spring second time in mid summer and then in autumn. Being a slow release fertilizer, it dissolves slowly providing macro as well as micro elements. Please answer the first sentence. Regards Anil Kaushik Bonsai Club (India) Chandigarh "The City Beautiful" I don't know why we are discussing this; what Jim said is completely accurate. Bonsai represent a special way of raising plants without natural soil. In such a situation, micronutrients are necessary all year long because the trees have no way to get them unless they are added exogenously. Since bonsai soils don't store much nutrient, the fertilizer needs to be added all the time. NPK fertilizers are meant to add the top 3 limiting nutrients to soils that otherwise DO NOT LACK for fertility. I always use a full fertilizer complement with my bonsai because I keep them in turface, bark and grani-grit, a mixture that lacks micronutrients. Nina, who is putting her trees in winter storage, except that crummy abutilon and her pathetic collection of indoor bonsai. ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ -- MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» |
#7
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Anil Kaushik wrote:
Nina I have not been able to understand why you people do not add natural soil to the Bonsai compost! I don't think it can really create problems when coarse ingredients like turface, grit and bark are there in the mix. snip Please answer the first sentence. Regards Anil Kaushik Bonsai Club (India) Chandigarh "The City Beautiful" Anil: With the encouragement of my wife, the queen of compost, Anita Hawkins, this year I started adding compost to my soil as part of the organic component. I have found that *sifted* compost (note the emphasis) is not dense, but is actually very fluffy and water still drains well from it. It is certainly not the largest part of my soil, generally no more than about a third, but I had pretty good results this year. The more coarse part of my soil is composted bark, turface, and gravel. I am not as strict in measuring it as some are. I have not had any problems with root rot, etc. that could happen if I weren't careful. This provides, I feel, the natural organic elements that the tree is going to look for in nature. Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#8
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HI Craig
I agree with your wife I started making compost home made the very best is made with oak leaves or Chestnut leaves this year I had a huge mushroom and few small ones that come out of it the compost is very soft and as you do I will use wuth crushed red lava or granite 3 to 5 mm 1/3 of composta and the rest garnite or lava I already stared with some and roots are very nice and the soil dires accordning as you wish if you dd some bark of sequoia I have few sequoias in my park and 2 has been cut and the bark is available first I sterilize it in steam with microwawes and than I cut it in small dices , according teh mix I do can take 1 week to dry Craig Cowing wrote: Anil Kaushik wrote: Nina I have not been able to understand why you people do not add natural soil to the Bonsai compost! I don't think it can really create problems when coarse ingredients like turface, grit and bark are there in the mix. snip Please answer the first sentence. Regards Anil Kaushik Bonsai Club (India) Chandigarh "The City Beautiful" Anil: With the encouragement of my wife, the queen of compost, Anita Hawkins, this year I started adding compost to my soil as part of the organic component. I have found that *sifted* compost (note the emphasis) is not dense, but is actually very fluffy and water still drains well from it. It is certainly not the largest part of my soil, generally no more than about a third, but I had pretty good results this year. The more coarse part of my soil is composted bark, turface, and gravel. I am not as strict in measuring it as some are. I have not had any problems with root rot, etc. that could happen if I weren't careful. This provides, I feel, the natural organic elements that the tree is going to look for in nature. Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ -- MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» |
#9
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Anil Kaushik wrote:
I have not been able to understand why you people do not add natural soil to the Bonsai compost! I don't think it can really create problems when coarse ingredients like turface, grit and bark are there in the mix. Soil provides the basic nutrition to the plants and in fact all flora grow in soil. Or is there some other reason for using the soiless compost? In India we use coarse sand/grit, fertile soil and coarse manure in equal parts and all the plants grow well. Anil There have been good responses to your question, but I believe there was only one that was close to my feeling about why you are successful in your regime while we have chosen our soilless route: The answer, I believe is the difference in our climates. I am sure that it is as hard for you to imagine what conditions are like in a temperate climate as it is for me to comprehend growing in the tropics. None the less, I will take a crack at it. The species which you grow and your climate means that there is activity of some sort year round, although I am sure there are periods of slower growth. In temperate climates there are long periods of almost no growth activity whatsoever. What this means is that your soil is in a constant state of wet/dry cycling. That is, water movement is nearly continual. Under such conditions, soil decomposition is minimal, and soil collapse is not not much of a problem. But I do note that you repot every year or so. At that rate of repotting, particle degradation would not be a problem even for those of us in a temperate climate. Our repotting rates are usually two to three years, up to ten years or more for pines. This longer period argues for more stable constituents. Additionally, in cold climates, the freeze/thaw cycling in winter is a factor in particle degradation as is the lack of a proper wet/dry cycling during the dormant season. Our soils tend to stay WET for most of the winter, which can be as long as October through March. That is a very long period of inactivity for a mostly inorganic soil. Use of a stable soilless mix insures that aeration is still present during this period, and soil composting is minimal. I seldom notice that my soil collapses much during the growing season for healthy plants, however at the end of a winter where we get 30 inches of rain in three or four months, spring definitely brings signs of soil problems, notably soil levels sinking in nursery containers. Now of course, it is possible for us in the temperate zones to grow in a mix similiar to yours, as it is possible for you to grow in soilless mixes. I have never been dogmatic about soil mixes, that is why I try to point out the principles of soil theory rather than a rigid recipe. Each soil recipe is going to require it's own concomitant regime of watering and other environmental care. In the tropics, yours works fine with your cultural practices, in temperate zones we are finding that soilless mixes work best with our cultural practices. If it works, it works. I usually don't even question what a person uses for soil if their trees are healthy. However, when someone isn't satisfied with the growth they are getting, or have a declining tree, the first thing I do is examine the soil. Most times the soil is too heavy in organic and fine material, and so I will recommend a soilless mix. Followup has shown me that I am usually right about this, as health and vigor improves. But this is for our climate and our cultural practices. This is a problem in an international forum, so the realization of such and an appropriate disclaimer are usually helpful. Brent EvergreenGardenworks.com ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#10
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On 23 Nov 2004 at 8:05, Nina Shishkoff wrote:
I don't know why we are discussing this; what Jim said is completely accurate. Wow! It had to happen sometime! ;-) But I know why . . . It's 'cause we're basically "garden people." Garden people have never ever been able to pass up the "majic" elixir of the day, week, month, year, or millennium. If it promises pumpkins you can make a coach and four out of they'll buy two batches! And then, of course, they have to pass this "secret" on to their neighbors. That's how Superthrive (among others) stays in business. So many products are sold to home gardeners under totally false premises (if not pretenses) that there oughta be a law. Buyer beware! Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#11
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Jim Lewis wrote: On 21 Nov 2004 at 9:58, Theo wrote: Hi I normally give some microelements mixed with the repotting soil and sometimes I sprinkle some this period of the year on the surface but when is the best period and how often shouldl micro elements be given to the bonsai ? once per ear twice ? more often .. I agree it all depends about the retention of the soil and the washing of the same for strong rains any advice? Thanks The best way is to fertilize with a fertilizer that already contains microelements, since trees need and use them all year long (even hibernating trees need their sustenance). But they don't need MUCH of any one of them -- fractions of a percent per unit of fertilizer/water -- and adding microelements yourself to trees in small pots can easily overdose them. Once a year, assuming your bonsai soil is a free-draining mix would be far to little; the stuff would vanish in a day or two, and I do not know how efficiently trees' roots take up the minor elements. So, I'd recommend a fertilizer that contains it all so that your trees have what they need throughout the year. HI Jim I see I have bought 2 poinds of it few years ago and give a coffee spoon in teh mix and in novembere on the soil some peopel uso jin liquid 2% with water to give to teh soil to acidify it and is good for roots too but not with pines .. Jorge Penalba advice some S sulphur dust on the soil, so I decided to buy some S sulphur and suddenly checked on my microelements box to see if there was any there it is in teh mix ,a high % 15 !!! now the point is will once per year do enough ,or is better maybe to give some each yeach qarter of the year ? teh box says that the quantity is good ( 2 lbs for a 4 sq ft of soil .. but does not say once in spring or november or sparingly... say nothing ! MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» |
#12
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now the point is
will once per year do enough ,or is better maybe to give some each yeach qarter of the year ? teh box says that the quantity is good ( 2 lbs for a 4 sq ft of soil .. but does not say once in spring or november or sparingly... say nothing ! I have to repeat, Theo that the instructions on the package undoubtedly were NOT written to apply to bonsai. Use that stuff according to directions (a couple of time a year, probably) on plants in your garden. For bonsai, use a fertilizer regularly that contains the micronutrients. Jim Lewis - - This economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment. - Gaylord Nelson ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#13
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Jim Lewis wrote: now the point is will once per year do enough ,or is better maybe to give some each yeach qarter of the year ? teh box says that the quantity is good ( 2 lbs for a 4 sq ft of soil .. but does not say once in spring or november or sparingly... say nothing ! I have to repeat, Theo that the instructions on the package undoubtedly were NOT written to apply to bonsai. Use that stuff according to directions (a couple of time a year, probably) on plants in your garden. For bonsai, use a fertilizer regularly that contains the micronutrients. right guess It says nothing .. but as I always did as you are suggesting and most of the time the microelements are contained in the organis fertilizer so will give in spring and late autumn as usaual .. Thanks Jim MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» |
#14
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Anil said:
I have not been able to understand why you people do not add natural soil to the Bonsai compost! There are 3 reasons for this: 1) Bonsai need well-drained conditions above almost everything else, and the kind of non-soil mix we use gives very good drainage. There is almost no way to add soil to a gravel-based potting medium without clogging the air pores. 2) Most of our information on container-growth of plants comes from the nursery industry, and in the US essentially no one uses soil in their container mixes. I just did a survey of what the major Rhododendron growers in the US use for their potting mix, and they all use nonsoil mixes (and their mixes are essentially the same except for the source of bark, which varies regionally). Since full-spectrum fertilizers are readily available, there is no need for a soil component in commercial nurseries. 3) Nonsoil mixes start out with few pathogens, and with a few precautions, can stay disease-free. Mixes that use soil have to be sterilized, and autoclaving soil changes its properties. A few years ago I was involved in a survey of the Pythium flora in greenhouses in the East coast (Pythium is the organism that causes "damping off" and many root rots) and the results of our survey were startlingly different from the results of scientists doing this sort of work 40 years ago. The reason appears to be that most greenhouses now use soilless mix and don't start their plants from seed as much, preferring to buy flats from wholesalers. So the species of Pythium in greenhouses today aren't coming in on soil; they're coming in on the plants. Nina, who uses no soil in her plant experiments, either. |
#15
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But this is a sort of (with)out-of-soil-growing !
Nina Shishkoff wrote: Anil said: I have not been able to understand why you people do not add natural soil to the Bonsai compost! There are 3 reasons for this: 1) Bonsai need well-drained conditions above almost everything else, and the kind of non-soil mix we use gives very good drainage. There is almost no way to add soil to a gravel-based potting medium without clogging the air pores. 2) Most of our information on container-growth of plants comes from the nursery industry, and in the US essentially no one uses soil in their container mixes. I just did a survey of what the major Rhododendron growers in the US use for their potting mix, and they all use nonsoil mixes (and their mixes are essentially the same except for the source of bark, which varies regionally). Since full-spectrum fertilizers are readily available, there is no need for a soil component in commercial nurseries. 3) Nonsoil mixes start out with few pathogens, and with a few precautions, can stay disease-free. Mixes that use soil have to be sterilized, and autoclaving soil changes its properties. A few years ago I was involved in a survey of the Pythium flora in greenhouses in the East coast (Pythium is the organism that causes "damping off" and many root rots) and the results of our survey were startlingly different from the results of scientists doing this sort of work 40 years ago. The reason appears to be that most greenhouses now use soilless mix and don't start their plants from seed as much, preferring to buy flats from wholesalers. So the species of Pythium in greenhouses today aren't coming in on soil; they're coming in on the plants. Nina, who uses no soil in her plant experiments, either. -- MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» |
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