Theo,

The answer is not simple. However... I do not grow tropicals, only temperate
climate hardy plants in zone 6.5 If one uses a soiless mix (e.g. 80% Turface
or similar), Micronutrients are important although more so for some species
than others. Micro nutrients are not essential throughout the year. Bonsai
use different things at different times of their annual cycle. I use a
commercial product called Micromax once per year, in the early spring just as
the buds are opening. 1/2 level teaspoon per gallon of soil in the pot gives
near miraculous results in the color, quality, and substance of leaves on the
bonsai. My observation is taht the trace elements provided are most needed
when the new leaves are forming but are of very limited use after the leaves
have hardened off. At that point regular fertilizers seem to have enough stuff
in them to keep the juices flowing properly. Regular use of micro
nutrientscould actually be toxic to some plants.

Julian Adams
Adams' Bonsai
Lynchburg, VA

Theo,

The answer is not simple. However... I do not grow tropicals, only temperate
climate hardy plants in zone 6.5 If one uses a soiless mix (e.g. 80% Turface
or similar), Micronutrients are important although more so for some species
than others. Micro nutrients are not essential throughout the year. Bonsai
use different things at different times of their annual cycle. I use a
commercial product called Micromax once per year, in the early spring just as
the buds are opening. 1/2 level teaspoon per gallon of soil in the pot gives
near miraculous results in the color, quality, and substance of leaves on the
bonsai. My observation is taht the trace elements provided are most needed
when the new leaves are forming but are of very limited use after the leaves
have hardened off. At that point regular fertilizers seem to have enough stuff
in them to keep the juices flowing properly. Regular use of micro
nutrientscould actually be toxic to some plants.

Julian Adams
Adams' Bonsai
Lynchburg, VA

On 23 Nov 2004 it was written:

Theo,

The answer is not simple. However... I do not grow tropicals, only temperate
climate hardy plants in zone 6.5 If one uses a soiless mix (e.g. 80% Turface
or similar), Micronutrients are important although more so for some species
than others. Micro nutrients are not essential throughout the year. Bonsai
use different things at different times of their annual cycle. I use a
commercial product called Micromax once per year, in the early spring just as
the buds are opening. 1/2 level teaspoon per gallon of soil in the pot gives
near miraculous results in the color, quality, and substance of leaves on the
bonsai. My observation is taht the trace elements provided are most needed
when the new leaves are forming but are of very limited use after the leaves
have hardened off. At that point regular fertilizers seem to have enough stuff
in them to keep the juices flowing properly. Regular use of micro
nutrientscould actually be toxic to some plants.



Oh my. I must disagree here. I must. With everything except
the first sentence, which is true: The answer is not simple.

The chemical life of plants also is not simple and cannot be
simplified in one or several brief e-mails -- at least not by me
in MY limited understanding.

But plants grow ALL year -- even when we say they're dormant
they grow a little -- somewhere. And as they do, they use the
nutrients they find in the soil to help them grow. Most native
soils are well-enough stocked with macro- and micro-nutrients
that trees and shrubs almost never need fertilizing, despite the
claims of the home-garden-oriented fertilizer manufacturers!

Bonsai soil on the other hand, is deficient in nutrients --
almost sterile in many cases. And bonsai soil drains so quickly
that any chemicals we add are quickly leached away by our
frequent watering. This is why we fertilize at weekly or twice-
weekly intervals -- to replace the nutrients that the soil lacks
and loses.

So bonsai need regular feeding to thrive -- both in macro- and
micronutrients. They need NPK, & S generally to grow roots,
stems and leaves (not necessarily in that order ;-). The
micronutrients (Fe, Mn, Zn, Cu, B, S (tho it usually is
considered a macronutrient), and Mo take care of the minutiae of
plant life. And they do it all year long!

Try withholding iron (Fe, a micronutrient) from a bonsai at
any time of year and you will almost immediately begin seeing
signs of chlorosis (grow azaleas in alkaline conditions, which
prevent uptake of Fe, and see how pale the leaves immediately
become). Ditto Manganese, Mn. Lack of other micronutrients
affects things you don't see as easily, such things as the
thickness of cell walls, the production of enzymes and hormones,
and a host of other vital processes in plants.

But who am I to argue with "the way it's been done." However,
_I_ won't give my plants a jolt of micronutrients once or twice
a year; they get them in small doses every time I feed (or
*almost* every time, I use fish emulsion sometimes and it lacks
many/most? micronutrients) -- which is throughout the year, but
less frequently in winter.

But as they say: Different strokes.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature
encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Hi Jim
Jim Lewis wrote:


I don't want to beat a dead horse, Theo, but you seem intent of
doing what you want to do anyway, but "fertilizer" is defined
simply as "a substance used to make soil more fertile."
Fertility is: "capable of sustaining abundant plant growth."

I agree with you seen under this point of view yes are fertilizers


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Hi Jim
Jim Lewis wrote:


I don't want to beat a dead horse, Theo, but you seem intent of
doing what you want to do anyway, but "fertilizer" is defined
simply as "a substance used to make soil more fertile."
Fertility is: "capable of sustaining abundant plant growth."

I agree with you seen under this point of view yes are fertilizers


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HI Julian

JRA BONSAI wrote:

Theo,

The answer is not simple. However... I do not grow tropicals, only temperate
climate hardy plants in zone 6.5

I am in Zone 7 Geneva Switzerland 5 needle pines azaleas and maples


If one uses a soiless mix (e.g. 80% Turface
or similar),
this is what I am tending to do as well with red lava or 3-4 mm
granite grit
Micronutrients are important although more so for some species
than others. Micro nutrients are not essential throughout the year. Bonsai
use different things at different times of their annual cycle. I use a
commercial product called Micromax once per year,

Exactly the same I have , is traded by Heuer a yellowish powder

in the early spring just as
the buds are opening. 1/2 level teaspoon per gallon of soil in the pot gives
near miraculous results in the color, quality, and substance of leaves on the
bonsai.
this is what I give

My observation is taht the trace elements provided are most needed
when the new leaves are forming but are of very limited use after the leaves
have hardened off. At that point regular fertilizers seem to have enough stuff
in them to keep the juices flowing properly. Regular use of micro
nutrientscould actually be toxic to some plants.
I know ,as for us too many vitamines :-)

I give a little pinch of Micromax in november .. a little less
than a cofee spoon for 2 aq ft pot

But I was wondering if more was needed ....
now you fully answered to my question

You say that it is no use to give it all year round , and is also
logic as during the period of growth and fertilization the
microelements are contained in the fertilizer cakes or fertilizer like
Biogold
Thanks again you ended my quest :-)



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HI Jim

you are right but as Julian sais she grows in turface (80%
so if you use a rich soil you need less micronutrients as are
contained therein
if you use poor soil you need more micro and macro elements ,

if you use fertilizers that contains them it is ok no supplement needed

all is relative to your plants ans soils how they are cured
I agree plants are alive all the time even if when are leaves less the
buds get plumpy and roots absorb humidity and also substances but
need less when in dormancy , especially of macroelemnts like NPK
in fact end oct. I give NPK 0-10-10 7 drops per gallon just twice
every 20 days for roots and buds to come and a little pinch of
microelemnts since 24 years ..
I was just wondering if more was needed
and the answer in no


Jim Lewis wrote:

On 23 Nov 2004 it was written:


Theo,

The answer is not simple. However... I do not grow tropicals, only temperate
climate hardy plants in zone 6.5 If one uses a soiless mix (e.g. 80% Turface
or similar), Micronutrients are important although more so for some species
than others. Micro nutrients are not essential throughout the year. Bonsai
use different things at different times of their annual cycle. I use a
commercial product called Micromax once per year, in the early spring just as
the buds are opening. 1/2 level teaspoon per gallon of soil in the pot gives
near miraculous results in the color, quality, and substance of leaves on the
bonsai. My observation is taht the trace elements provided are most needed
when the new leaves are forming but are of very limited use after the leaves
have hardened off. At that point regular fertilizers seem to have enough stuff
in them to keep the juices flowing properly. Regular use of micro
nutrientscould actually be toxic to some plants.




Oh my. I must disagree here. I must. With everything except
the first sentence, which is true: The answer is not simple.

The chemical life of plants also is not simple and cannot be
simplified in one or several brief e-mails -- at least not by me
in MY limited understanding.

But plants grow ALL year -- even when we say they're dormant
they grow a little -- somewhere. And as they do, they use the
nutrients they find in the soil to help them grow. Most native
soils are well-enough stocked with macro- and micro-nutrients
that trees and shrubs almost never need fertilizing, despite the
claims of the home-garden-oriented fertilizer manufacturers!

Bonsai soil on the other hand, is deficient in nutrients --
almost sterile in many cases. And bonsai soil drains so quickly
that any chemicals we add are quickly leached away by our
frequent watering. This is why we fertilize at weekly or twice-
weekly intervals -- to replace the nutrients that the soil lacks
and loses.

So bonsai need regular feeding to thrive -- both in macro- and
micronutrients. They need NPK, & S generally to grow roots,
stems and leaves (not necessarily in that order ;-). The
micronutrients (Fe, Mn, Zn, Cu, B, S (tho it usually is
considered a macronutrient), and Mo take care of the minutiae of
plant life. And they do it all year long!

Try withholding iron (Fe, a micronutrient) from a bonsai at
any time of year and you will almost immediately begin seeing
signs of chlorosis (grow azaleas in alkaline conditions, which
prevent uptake of Fe, and see how pale the leaves immediately
become). Ditto Manganese, Mn. Lack of other micronutrients
affects things you don't see as easily, such things as the
thickness of cell walls, the production of enzymes and hormones,
and a host of other vital processes in plants.

But who am I to argue with "the way it's been done." However,
_I_ won't give my plants a jolt of micronutrients once or twice
a year; they get them in small doses every time I feed (or
*almost* every time, I use fish emulsion sometimes and it lacks
many/most? micronutrients) -- which is throughout the year, but
less frequently in winter.

But as they say: Different strokes.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature
encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson

************************************************** ******************************
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************************************************** ******************************

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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

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Jim Lewis wrote:

snip

But plants grow ALL year -- even when we say they're dormant
they grow a little -- somewhere.

snip

But as they say: Different strokes.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature
encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Jim:
Tell me how to fertilize trees that are under 6" of leaf mulch, a foot of snow, and
the soil is frozen solid? ;0}

Mine aren't there yet but they will be soon enough!

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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I don't know why we are discussing this; what Jim said is completely
accurate. Bonsai represent a special way of raising plants without
natural soil. In such a situation, micronutrients are necessary all
year long because the trees have no way to get them unless they are
added exogenously. Since bonsai soils don't store much nutrient, the
fertilizer needs to be added all the time.

NPK fertilizers are meant to add the top 3 limiting nutrients to soils
that otherwise DO NOT LACK for fertility. I always use a full
fertilizer complement with my bonsai because I keep them in turface,
bark and grani-grit, a mixture that lacks micronutrients.

Nina, who is putting her trees in winter storage, except that crummy
abutilon and her pathetic collection of indoor bonsai.

On 23 Nov 2004 at 8:05, Nina Shishkoff wrote:

I don't know why we are discussing this; what Jim said is completely
accurate.

Wow! It had to happen sometime! ;-)

But I know why . . . It's 'cause we're basically "garden
people."

Garden people have never ever been able to pass up the "majic"
elixir of the day, week, month, year, or millennium. If it
promises pumpkins you can make a coach and four out of they'll
buy two batches!

And then, of course, they have to pass this "secret" on to their
neighbors. That's how Superthrive (among others) stays in
business.

So many products are sold to home gardeners under totally false
premises (if not pretenses) that there oughta be a law.

Buyer beware!

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature
encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson

************************************************** ******************************
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************************************************** ******************************
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On 23 Nov 2004 at 8:05, Nina Shishkoff wrote:

I don't know why we are discussing this; what Jim said is completely
accurate.

Wow! It had to happen sometime! ;-)

But I know why . . . It's 'cause we're basically "garden
people."

Garden people have never ever been able to pass up the "majic"
elixir of the day, week, month, year, or millennium. If it
promises pumpkins you can make a coach and four out of they'll
buy two batches!

And then, of course, they have to pass this "secret" on to their
neighbors. That's how Superthrive (among others) stays in
business.

So many products are sold to home gardeners under totally false
premises (if not pretenses) that there oughta be a law.

Buyer beware!

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature
encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++
************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Nina

I have not been able to understand why you people do not add natural soil to
the Bonsai compost! I don't think it can really create problems when coarse
ingredients like turface, grit and bark are there in the mix. Soil provides
the basic nutrition to the plants and in fact all flora grow in soil. Or is
there some other reason for using the soiless compost? In India we use
coarse sand/grit, fertile soil and coarse manure in equal parts and all the
plants grow well. Yes we do provide the three meals i.e. breakfast, lunch
and dinner. I add organic fertilizer *Sterameal* which is a mixture of
bonemeal, hornmeal, hoofmeal, bloodmeal and some more organic ingredients;
three times a year, once in spring second time in mid summer and then in
autumn. Being a slow release fertilizer, it dissolves slowly providing macro
as well as micro elements.

Please answer the first sentence.

Regards

Anil Kaushik
Bonsai Club (India)
Chandigarh "The City Beautiful"



I don't know why we are discussing this; what Jim said is completely
accurate. Bonsai represent a special way of raising plants without
natural soil. In such a situation, micronutrients are necessary all
year long because the trees have no way to get them unless they are
added exogenously. Since bonsai soils don't store much nutrient, the
fertilizer needs to be added all the time.

NPK fertilizers are meant to add the top 3 limiting nutrients to soils
that otherwise DO NOT LACK for fertility. I always use a full
fertilizer complement with my bonsai because I keep them in turface,
bark and grani-grit, a mixture that lacks micronutrients.

Nina, who is putting her trees in winter storage, except that crummy
abutilon and her pathetic collection of indoor bonsai.


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****
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Anil said:
I have not been able to understand why you people do not add natural
soil to the Bonsai compost!

There are 3 reasons for this:

1) Bonsai need well-drained conditions above almost everything else,
and the kind of non-soil mix we use gives very good drainage. There
is almost no way to add soil to a gravel-based potting medium without
clogging the air pores.

2) Most of our information on container-growth of plants comes from
the nursery industry, and in the US essentially no one uses soil in
their container mixes. I just did a survey of what the major
Rhododendron growers in the US use for their potting mix, and they all
use nonsoil mixes (and their mixes are essentially the same except for
the source of bark, which varies regionally). Since full-spectrum
fertilizers are readily available, there is no need for a soil
component in commercial nurseries.


3) Nonsoil mixes start out with few pathogens, and with a few
precautions, can stay disease-free. Mixes that use soil have to be
sterilized, and autoclaving soil changes its properties.

A few years ago I was involved in a survey of the Pythium flora in
greenhouses in the East coast (Pythium is the organism that causes
"damping off" and many root rots) and the results of our survey were
startlingly different from the results of scientists doing this sort
of work 40 years ago. The reason appears to be that most greenhouses
now use soilless mix and don't start their plants from seed as much,
preferring to buy flats from wholesalers. So the species of Pythium
in greenhouses today aren't coming in on soil; they're coming in on
the plants.

Nina, who uses no soil in her plant experiments, either.

I guess the climate is different as well the species of trees you grow
and their growing season , most probaly is all year round, or more
than in cold climates like Ny or north europe

Anil Kaushik wrote:

Nina

I have not been able to understand why you people do not add natural soil to
the Bonsai compost! I don't think it can really create problems when coarse
ingredients like turface, grit and bark are there in the mix. Soil provides
the basic nutrition to the plants and in fact all flora grow in soil. Or is
there some other reason for using the soiless compost? In India we use
coarse sand/grit, fertile soil and coarse manure in equal parts and all the
plants grow well. Yes we do provide the three meals i.e. breakfast, lunch
and dinner. I add organic fertilizer *Sterameal* which is a mixture of
bonemeal, hornmeal, hoofmeal, bloodmeal and some more organic ingredients;
three times a year, once in spring second time in mid summer and then in
autumn. Being a slow release fertilizer, it dissolves slowly providing macro
as well as micro elements.

Please answer the first sentence.

Regards

Anil Kaushik
Bonsai Club (India)
Chandigarh "The City Beautiful"




I don't know why we are discussing this; what Jim said is completely
accurate. Bonsai represent a special way of raising plants without
natural soil. In such a situation, micronutrients are necessary all
year long because the trees have no way to get them unless they are
added exogenously. Since bonsai soils don't store much nutrient, the
fertilizer needs to be added all the time.

NPK fertilizers are meant to add the top 3 limiting nutrients to soils
that otherwise DO NOT LACK for fertility. I always use a full
fertilizer complement with my bonsai because I keep them in turface,
bark and grani-grit, a mixture that lacks micronutrients.

Nina, who is putting her trees in winter storage, except that crummy
abutilon and her pathetic collection of indoor bonsai.



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****

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****

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But this is a sort of (with)out-of-soil-growing !


Nina Shishkoff wrote:

Anil said:

I have not been able to understand why you people do not add natural

soil to the Bonsai compost!

There are 3 reasons for this:

1) Bonsai need well-drained conditions above almost everything else,
and the kind of non-soil mix we use gives very good drainage. There
is almost no way to add soil to a gravel-based potting medium without
clogging the air pores.

2) Most of our information on container-growth of plants comes from
the nursery industry, and in the US essentially no one uses soil in
their container mixes. I just did a survey of what the major
Rhododendron growers in the US use for their potting mix, and they all
use nonsoil mixes (and their mixes are essentially the same except for
the source of bark, which varies regionally). Since full-spectrum
fertilizers are readily available, there is no need for a soil
component in commercial nurseries.


3) Nonsoil mixes start out with few pathogens, and with a few
precautions, can stay disease-free. Mixes that use soil have to be
sterilized, and autoclaving soil changes its properties.

A few years ago I was involved in a survey of the Pythium flora in
greenhouses in the East coast (Pythium is the organism that causes
"damping off" and many root rots) and the results of our survey were
startlingly different from the results of scientists doing this sort
of work 40 years ago. The reason appears to be that most greenhouses
now use soilless mix and don't start their plants from seed as much,
preferring to buy flats from wholesalers. So the species of Pythium
in greenhouses today aren't coming in on soil; they're coming in on
the plants.

Nina, who uses no soil in her plant experiments, either.

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