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[IBC] Admin - R.A.B. - Long
List Members,
In the past two weeks we have seen an increasing number of argumentative / off topic posts / and increasing numbers of spam posts all received through rec.arts.bonsai. These posts not only waste my time, they waste yours, and fill our archives with what can only be politely described as garbage. We/I have three alternatives: (and others have already said I should not open this up for discussion). So for 24 hours or so let's discuss. I strongly urge any and all lurkers out there to join in this discussion. After that I will close discussion and do what I feel needs to be done. 1) Put up with it. Continue to issue pleas for it not to happen (mostly disregarded and which also fill the archives). I need to say here, that those of you on the list know that I prefer to let most topics run their course, without intervention from me. I'll tell you that several members ask for my intervention or stronger list management from time to time but I try NOT to become the final arbiter of what is or isn't okay for us to discuss as long as it's somehow tied to bonsai. Tom's limericks for example were a wonderful relief for me when they returned (thanks Tom). 2) Sever our link with RAB. Bingo, those who only wish to be spammers/trolls or whatever description you wish to use will no longer have access to all of us unless they Join The List. Of course if they do join, I could then be sterner in the control of posts clear to the point of banishment from the list. Here I need to add that -- I -- found the LIST via RAB. I don't know that I would have ever found you folks without it. We're in this to promote the art/hobby (let's not quibble) of bonsai. Rec.arts lets us be found by newbies. I have no clue right now how many lurkers are out there who read and learn but haven't posted yet. I am willing to post weekly/bi-monthly messages to RAB so that those searching can be invited to the list and find the knowledge they seek. I do know that we currently have 540 subscribed members. 3) Immediately place offenders on a filter list. This will prevent those of us on the mailing list from receiving the problem RAB posts -- unless, of course, someone else on RAB replies to an offending post. (This option would not keep these filtered spammers or other offensive postings from RAB; their posts would continue to show up on RAB). Pressure on our IBC list archives would be relieved -- except for those replies -- since only messages that make it to the list go to the archives. But it would add a lot to my workload. 540 of us. Are you tired of receiving this stuff in your mail. This is, after all is said and done, YOUR LIST. Which would you prefer. For the purpose of open discussion, please post ALL replies to the list. Shelly Hurd - List Owner/Manager ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
Shelly:
I try to be a lurker and only jump in when I can add something to the Bonsai conversations. I personally, think that you have to make the decision! Your work is cut out for you, but when one of those asinine posts come in I delete it and or tell my ISP to put it on the spam list! If our members and lurkers would refrain from answering and wasting band width, your life would be a lot easier. So that is how I as 1/540th of the list vote! Carl Shelly Hurd wrote: List Members, In the past two weeks we have seen an increasing number of argumentative / off topic posts / and increasing numbers of spam posts all received through rec.arts.bonsai. These posts not only waste my time, they waste yours, and fill our archives with what can only be politely described as garbage. Carl L. Rosner - near Atlantic City zone 6/7 www.carlrosner.com http://www.yessy.com/arteacher3725 http://rosner.becanz.net ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
My vote is to just put up with it... I read this list through email, and belong to about 14 other email lists as well. All of them have off topic posts, spam, etc. With a little organizational filtering (each group automatically moves to it's own folder) and a delete button (right under the 'insert' button on most keyboards ;)...) I am able to go through 800+ emails a day in my personal account.
Life on the Internet unfortunately has spam and trolls. That is just the way it is. By sheltering yourself trying to hide from it, you will end up with a small closed little community of people with the same ideas and never any new blood to ask those questions about the juniper with glued on rocks. If we do sever the RAB link, and still get spam and trolls, what's next? Invite only to join the group? That way if someone invites a new user to join, and they post off-topic or cause a commotion, we can ban both the new user and the person that invited them... hmm... Thanks. I will go back to lurking now... Jon -----Original Message----- From: Internet Bonsai Club on behalf of Shelly Hurd Sent: Fri 2/25/2005 8:23 AM To: Cc: Subject: [IBC] Admin - R.A.B. - Long SNIP 1) Put up with it. Continue to issue pleas for it not to happen (mostly disregarded and which also fill the archives). I need to say here, that those of you on the list know that I prefer to let most topics run their course, without intervention from me. I'll tell you that several members ask for my intervention or stronger list management from time to time but I try NOT to become the final arbiter of what is or isn't okay for us to discuss as long as it's somehow tied to bonsai. Tom's limericks for example were a wonderful relief for me when they returned (thanks Tom). SNIP 540 of us. Are you tired of receiving this stuff in your mail. This is, after all is said and done, YOUR LIST. Which would you prefer. For the purpose of open discussion, please post ALL replies to the list. Shelly Hurd - List Owner/Manager |
A short opinion:
Recommend severing the RAB link. Those who interested enough in bonsai will find IBC through Google. Peter Aradi Tulsa, Oklahoma ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
I know on Yahoogroups that you can place all new posters on
moderation. We do that with my big group. After they make one or two on topic posts we then allow them un-moderated privileges. It has been a very long time since I have worked with a "list-serve", but if it has that ability then it gets my vote. If not, then your #3 gets my vote. I also found this list via the newsgroup. I think a lot of the problem is members of this list like to respond to off topic posts, which does nothing but add more garbage to the archives. I guess they are not used to working with newsgroups. There you just ignore the OT and keep on going. You also learn to smudge your email address. I am afraid that if all members of this group would vote they would do away with the tie to the newsgroup. Hal - zone 7 Memphis TN ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
On Friday, Feb 25, 2005, at 10:23 America/Chicago, Shelly Hurd wrote:
List Members, In the past two weeks we have seen an increasing number of argumentative / off topic posts / and increasing numbers of spam posts all received through rec.arts.bonsai. These posts not only waste my time, they waste yours, and fill our archives with what can only be politely described as garbage. This was pretty much two threads. Those moron-a-thons seems to have died out for now. The occasional storm of keyboard barf is an inevitable consequence of being open to the world. We/I have three alternatives: (and others have already said I should not open this up for discussion). So for 24 hours or so let's discuss. I strongly urge any and all lurkers out there to join in this discussion. After that I will close discussion and do what I feel needs to be done. 1) Put up with it. Continue to issue pleas for it not to happen (mostly disregarded and which also fill the archives). I need to say here, that those of you on the list know that I prefer to let most topics run their course, without intervention from me. I'll tell you that several members ask for my intervention or stronger list management from time to time but I try NOT to become the final arbiter of what is or isn't okay for us to discuss as long as it's somehow tied to bonsai. Tom's limericks for example were a wonderful relief for me when they returned (thanks Tom). I agree. If it at all related to bonsai in some way it is fine with me. But then I'm pretty good with the delete key too. Unless the list is being overwhelmed by trolls it is a worthwhile sacrifice IMHO. 2) Sever our link with RAB. Bingo, those who only wish to be spammers/trolls or whatever description you wish to use will no longer have access to all of us unless they Join The List. Of course if they do join, I could then be sterner in the control of posts clear to the point of banishment from the list. Here I need to add that -- I -- found the LIST via RAB. I don't know that I would have ever found you folks without it. We're in this to promote the art/hobby (let's not quibble) of bonsai. Rec.arts lets us be found by newbies. I have no clue right now how many lurkers are out there who read and learn but haven't posted yet. I am willing to post weekly/bi-monthly messages to RAB so that those searching can be invited to the list and find the knowledge they seek. I do know that we currently have 540 subscribed members. I also found the list via r.a.b. I'd have never heard of it otherwise. Without it being connected to the list there is one fewer channel available to promote both the IBC and bonsai in general. There is a real danger of the list becoming both pure and extinct without some source of new members. If I could add a 2a) While I don't advocate reducing the link between r.a.b and the list, could the link be made one way, so that the list posts to r.a.b but not vice / versa? just tossing another (sub) option into the mix. This would sanitize the list while still making it's content available to the usenet public. 3) Immediately place offenders on a filter list. This will prevent those of us on the mailing list from receiving the problem RAB posts -- unless, of course, someone else on RAB replies to an offending post. (This option would not keep these filtered spammers or other offensive postings from RAB; their posts would continue to show up on RAB). Pressure on our IBC list archives would be relieved -- except for those replies -- since only messages that make it to the list go to the archives. But it would add a lot to my workload. It would not work. Usenet trolls tend to post in packs and use sock puppets (multiple identities) to chatter with and among themselves. You would be chasing phantoms all day. Ignoring them drives them off pretty quickly. 540 of us. Are you tired of receiving this stuff in your mail. This is, after all is said and done, YOUR LIST. Which would you prefer. For the purpose of open discussion, please post ALL replies to the list. This lurker (when I have something worth saying about bonsai I will, but my trees tell me I need to practice a lot before I start giving anybody advice) recommends that we all try to maintain a sense of humor about the whole thing. Jerks are just a fact of life. Think of them like aphids. Poison gas isn't needed when a blast from the hose will work. ************************************************** ********************* ********* ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ********************* ********* -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
Shelly Hurd wrote:
List Members, I'm not a member, but may I, being the culprit of this whole ... issue, also add some thoughts? So, unless I'm not already banned, here it goes: I don't understand the need for the IBC mailing list to be attached to r.a.b.. Mailing lists should be closed, period. Closed in a sense that at least a (possibly free) registration is required. Usenet, on the other hand, is open. If you make a hybrid, you should at least make it moderated on the open end: messages posted on RAB should be approved by a moderator before allowed into the mailing list. That being said, may I ask you why the mailing list is at all necessary? I mean, reading and posting to Usenet is almost identical to e-mail, archiving is taken care of by Google. For free, may I add. With unlimited searching capabilities, too. Which is more than a bargain, if you ask me. --------- IBC has (at least) three means of communication: 1. Web-based forum (or, as it's called on IBC, interactive galleries). 2. Mailing list (e-mail). 3. Usenet (rec.arts.bonsai and alt.bonsai). The first two are struggling with archiving problems, the third isn't. Now, if you ask me, the web-based forum is more than enough. Having two means of communication (web + mailing list) makes it more complicated, right? No? OK, if not, then I don't see the problem of setting up one more account in ones mail client to also handle a Usenet newsgroup. Which takes care of the detachment problem: members of the mailing list wouldn't miss anything by being detached. They should monitor the r.a.b. independently of the mailing list. Problem solved. And another thing: just as you don't like r.a.b. "intruders" (me), I don't like being lectured on Usenet (by a IBC mailing list moderator(s)) what I can and can't do on the mailing list. Let me stress this: I have absolutely nothing to do with the mailing list. That's entirely _your_ problem. |
Jon Morris wrote:
By sheltering yourself trying to hide from it, you will end up with a small closed little community of people with the same ideas and never any new blood New blood has free access through http://internetbonsaiclub.org/user_e...task,register/ , so ... no problem there. |
Carl Rosner wrote:
Your work is cut out for you, but when one of those asinine posts Asinine? Like those limerick banters you mean? I agree. ;-) come in I delete it and or tell my ISP to put it on the spam list! That's not spam you're dealing with, Carl. There's a big difference. And your ISP knows it. Besides, your ISP can't ban anybody from posting to Usenet NGs. Usenet is a distributed network. It would take _all_ the ISPs (in the world!) to completely ban somebody. |
On 25 Feb 2005 at 11:34, Philip Diamond wrote: 3) Immediately place offenders on a filter list. This will prevent
those of us on the mailing list from receiving the problem RAB posts -- unless, of course, someone else on RAB replies to an offending post. (This option would not keep these filtered spammers or other offensive postings from RAB; their posts would continue to show up on RAB). Pressure on our IBC list archives would be relieved -- except for those replies -- since only messages that make it to the list go to the archives. But it would add a lot to my workload. It would not work. Usenet trolls tend to post in packs and use sock puppets (multiple identities) to chatter with and among themselves. You would be chasing phantoms all day. Ignoring them drives them off pretty quickly. If only we WOULD ignore them -- but we don't. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
On 25 Feb 2005 at 11:12, janhal wrote:
I know on Yahoogroups that you can place all new posters on moderation. We do that with my big group. After they make one or two on topic posts we then allow them un-moderated privileges. It has been a very long time since I have worked with a "list-serve", but if it has that ability then it gets my vote. If not, then your #3 gets my vote. I also found this list via the newsgroup. I think a lot of the problem is members of this list like to respond to off topic posts, which does nothing but add more garbage to the archives. I guess they are not used to working with newsgroups. There you just ignore the OT and keep on going. You also learn to smudge your email address. I am afraid that if all members of this group would vote they would do away with the tie to the newsgroup. IF we could put RAB messages on "moderation" and I'm not sure we could, that would be a LOT more work for Shelly. But Shelly, you might want to ask ease-home if messages from "Newsgate" (which, as the gateway, is subscribed to the list) could be put on moderation. I'd never thought of that -- perhaps for good reason, since it means that the list manager -- YOU, Shelly -- would have to approve *every* posting from RAB. :-( Aargh. Jim Lewis - - Hit THINK before you hit SEND ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
A short opinion:
Recommend severing the RAB link. Those who interested enough in bonsai will find IBC through Google. Peter Aradi -------------------------------- Over the 9 years I have been on the list I have learned to delete and stay cool. Nevertheless, it still has an effect which we cannot help having a reaction to that isn't pleasant or healthy for anyone and casts a discouragment over new-comers. As we know from a recent msg, it also is the cause of returning-old-timers, with their wanted experience and help, to just leave us again regretfully. I support Peter's reaction to this - sever RAB and understand that genuinely interested people who would like a good contact will find us without difficulty. I know I say this without possibly understanding a loss to some very nice people on RAB, but we have carryed the burden for long enough - hopefully they will understand. This situation could get worse. There are times when the list has breaks of argumentive and even unpleasant situations, but our nature is that we can accept that as a group and tolerate our natural outbursts occasionally much like a family - however - the spam is so aggressively and explosively intrusive it can spoil a whole day without any reasonable understanding in our receiving it. Shelly, we are much aware of the burden you carry, but I think, like Peter, the time has come to close this uncontrollable intrusion; it will be a representation of our best intentions for sincere bonsai folks and those who support and work for the list. Lynn Lynn Boyd, Oregon, USA ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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This is how I found this lsit, I am a proud lurker who learns alot reading
my daily Bonsai fix. I do not mind deleting off topic posts, but those that abuse the lsit are just annoying. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Cowing" Speaking for myself, I did not find the list through RAB. I found it through a Yahoo search on bonsai, and came directly to the IBC website. I don't read newsgroups. I simply don't have the time. Maybe I'm strange this way. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
Its like a car case, it's stupid but we are drawn to it and could watch it
for the entire time it's on TV. Haaa ~Tony HB,CA -----Original Message----- From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On Behalf Of Jim Lewis Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 10:37 AM To: Subject: [IBC] Admin - R.A.B. - Long On 25 Feb 2005 at 11:34, Philip Diamond wrote: 3) Immediately place offenders on a filter list. This will prevent those of us on the mailing list from receiving the problem RAB posts -- unless, of course, someone else on RAB replies to an offending post. (This option would not keep these filtered spammers or other offensive postings from RAB; their posts would continue to show up on RAB). Pressure on our IBC list archives would be relieved -- except for those replies -- since only messages that make it to the list go to the archives. But it would add a lot to my workload. It would not work. Usenet trolls tend to post in packs and use sock puppets (multiple identities) to chatter with and among themselves. You would be chasing phantoms all day. Ignoring them drives them off pretty quickly. If only we WOULD ignore them -- but we don't. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
I don't mind deleting the off topics...just takes an extra second or two,
depending on how many there are. Have a happy weekend! Tony Huntington Beach,CA -----Original Message----- From: Internet Bonsai Club ] On Behalf Of Shelly Hurd Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 8:24 AM To: Subject: [IBC] Admin - R.A.B. - Long List Members, In the past two weeks we have seen an increasing number of argumentative / off topic posts / and increasing numbers of spam posts all received through rec.arts.bonsai. These posts not only waste my time, they waste yours, and fill our archives with what can only be politely described as garbage. We/I have three alternatives: (and others have already said I should not open this up for discussion). So for 24 hours or so let's discuss. I strongly urge any and all lurkers out there to join in this discussion. After that I will close discussion and do what I feel needs to be done. 1) Put up with it. Continue to issue pleas for it not to happen (mostly disregarded and which also fill the archives). I need to say here, that those of you on the list know that I prefer to let most topics run their course, without intervention from me. I'll tell you that several members ask for my intervention or stronger list management from time to time but I try NOT to become the final arbiter of what is or isn't okay for us to discuss as long as it's somehow tied to bonsai. Tom's limericks for example were a wonderful relief for me when they returned (thanks Tom). 2) Sever our link with RAB. Bingo, those who only wish to be spammers/trolls or whatever description you wish to use will no longer have access to all of us unless they Join The List. Of course if they do join, I could then be sterner in the control of posts clear to the point of banishment from the list. Here I need to add that -- I -- found the LIST via RAB. I don't know that I would have ever found you folks without it. We're in this to promote the art/hobby (let's not quibble) of bonsai. Rec.arts lets us be found by newbies. I have no clue right now how many lurkers are out there who read and learn but haven't posted yet. I am willing to post weekly/bi-monthly messages to RAB so that those searching can be invited to the list and find the knowledge they seek. I do know that we currently have 540 subscribed members. 3) Immediately place offenders on a filter list. This will prevent those of us on the mailing list from receiving the problem RAB posts -- unless, of course, someone else on RAB replies to an offending post. (This option would not keep these filtered spammers or other offensive postings from RAB; their posts would continue to show up on RAB). Pressure on our IBC list archives would be relieved -- except for those replies -- since only messages that make it to the list go to the archives. But it would add a lot to my workload. 540 of us. Are you tired of receiving this stuff in your mail. This is, after all is said and done, YOUR LIST. Which would you prefer. For the purpose of open discussion, please post ALL replies to the list. Shelly Hurd - List Owner/Manager ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
As with many, I'm quite skilled in the use of my delete button, and I use
mailwasher to preview mail before downloading it to my machine. Trolls and spammers happen, and while i wish they didn't, well, they do. I have long thought that being joined at the hip with RAB was botha blessing and a curse. We really have no way to determine the impact. There's a lot of good (people joinign the list ebcause they found the group, people participating only in the group because they don't want to join yet another mailing list), and there's a lot of bad. Perhaps a big part of the problem, and that's where *we* are guilty, is that we respond to spammers and trolls. It's been said often enough, ignore them. As tempting as it is, we shouldn't rise up to the bait. But we do. Inevitably. What gets trolls going is that they get a response. If they don't, they get bored and go away. They would be amused by this thread I would imagine, they managed to cause a lot of consternation. I can keep it or leave it, RAB. But my inclination would be to let the kiddies do their thing and ignore them... Nic ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
Group,
Keep the posts coming, I'm also receiving private messages, but I prefer those everyone can see. Most of you have remembered to SNIP my lengthly post, so I say thank you. Please DO remember to SNIP unnecessary portions when you reply. This is MORE about our ARCHIVE space (which we PAY for) than it is about the spammers. I too use my delete key with wreckless abandon. Regards, Shelly Hurd - List Owner/Manager ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
The big problem is not spammers or off topic mails, we will always have
them. The problem is that otherwise serious members responding to these off topic/spam mails on the list. Feel free to discuss whatever, but do it off list. I dont think any of Shellys suggestions cure this problem. This is each and everyones resposibility, what type off list do we want. I would be interesting to hear what you want. That way I (and others) can make up my mind if this is the list for me. Right now it´s not. Henrik Gistvall, Uppsala, Sweden ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
I pretty much agree with most of what Nic and others have said, RAB can be a
pain at times, but deleting the spam and troll messages is no big deal. We aren't really inundated with the stuff, it seems to come and go in spurts. The big thing is to not respond to it, just delete it. The list traffic has slowed to a virtual trickle compared to what it used to be six or eight years ago; if we cut RAB loose it may drop even further. I originally found the list through RAB, although I may have found it without RAB anyway, and I know that there used to be, and maybe still are, some regular contributors who read and post through RAB. Regards, Roger Snipes ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicolas Steenhout" I have long thought that being joined at the hip with RAB was botha blessing and a curse. Perhaps a big part of the problem, and that's where *we* are guilty, is that we respond to spammers and trolls. It's been said often enough, ignore them. As tempting as it is, we shouldn't rise up to the bait. But we do. Inevitably. What gets trolls going is that they get a response. If they don't, they get bored and go away. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
On 25 Feb 2005 at 23:14, Henrik Gistvall wrote:
I dont think any of Shellys suggestions cure this problem. Not so. The mailing list administrator has 100% control over what gets on or doesn't get on the list -- if he wants to use it. He can moderate everyone, approving what they send before it appears on the list, or just some folks. He can prohibit any individual from posting to the list. LSoft filters spam from the mailing list (but can't tell RAB spam from legit RAB messages). It can do (or at least does) nothing about trolls and troublemakers on RAB. The List administrator has limited control over users of RAB. He can keep certain RAB users' messages from appearing on the list, but cannot control what they put on RAB. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - List manager emeritus ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
5) Make RAB a moderated newsgroup. It would take a lot of time & effort to
make this change, as the RFD/CFV process takes a minimum of 2 months, but it could be well worth it. Wayne, What's the process? Who'd do it? Sent To whom? How? _I_'d be willing to consider doing it. Jim Lewis - - Hit THINK before you hit SEND ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
I have posted occasionally to the IBC galleries, and slightly more often to
rec.arts.bonsai I'm not subscribed to the IBC mailing list, so I only access the content of r.a.b via a newsgroup reader - this allows me to simply skip the material (both real bonsai content that I'm not interested in, and the 'garbage' Shelly spoke of). I think both provide a good forum for sharing information and ideas. Personally people have been very kind and helpful when I've posted. I would like to continue to have this resource (r.a.b) available to me in the future. -- Michael Cameron Alliston, Ontario, Canada |
I'd vote to leave it the way it is. I get more spam in my email account at
work than I get through this list. I don't remember how I found the list but I think it was through RAB. The concern I have about severing the link is the potential for becoming more of an "elite group of bonsai snobs" (as I've heard the list called) than we are now (No I'm not saying we are - just repeating a perception). When a discussion becomes argumenative or tedious I just start deleting posts. Bill Neff ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
Every once in a while I consider joining another group; I listen to the
other group (Jazz, art, whatever) for a while and realize how GREAT this group is- we are literate, we stay on topic, and we are nice. Our problems with spammers and idiots are minor. I like the community of my dear friends on the maillist, but I'd like to reach out to newbies and lurkers on RAB without having to hang out there. My time is limited and I have a dial-up connection! Nina |
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:01:32 +0100, Eltee wrote:
Your isp can ban people from inappropriate posting on USENET, if, the group is classified as a moderated group. I don't know if this one is but surely one of the mods knows. If it is moderated, you can then report the spammers for posting off topic and harrassing posts. The reputable ones, especially the large USENET providers will warn their customers. Not 100% effective but it deters most nuisance posters. That's not spam you're dealing with, Carl. There's a big difference. And your ISP knows it. Besides, your ISP can't ban anybody from posting to Usenet NGs. Usenet is a distributed network. It would take _all_ the ISPs (in the world!) to completely ban somebody. |
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On 25 Feb 2005 at 19:29, Michael Cameron wrote:
I have posted occasionally to the IBC galleries, and slightly more often to rec.arts.bonsai I'm not subscribed to the IBC mailing list, so I only access the content of r.a.b via a newsgroup reader - this allows me to simply skip the material (both real bonsai content that I'm not interested in, and the 'garbage' Shelly spoke of). I think both provide a good forum for sharing information and ideas. Personally people have been very kind and helpful when I've posted. I would like to continue to have this resource (r.a.b) available to me in the future. -- No matter which option Shelly ends up implementing, you will NOT be deprived of rec.arts.bonsai. You MAY, however, be deprived of the 540 of us mailing list members whose messages also go to RAB -- just as RAB messages come to the list. I'd estimate that you'd cut the kind and helpful folks by about 1/2 to 2/3. Jim Lewis - - Hit THINK before you hit SEND ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
Thanks Wayne. I'll take a hard look at these pages, but not
this close to the end of a long hard day. ;-) Jim On 26 Feb 2005 at 1:29, Wayne C. Morris wrote: In article 421F644D.15746.54FF1F@localhost, (Jim Lewis) wrote: 5) Make RAB a moderated newsgroup. It would take a lot of time & effort to make this change, as the RFD/CFV process takes a minimum of 2 months, but it could be well worth it. Wayne, What's the process? Who'd do it? Sent To whom? How? _I_'d be willing to consider doing it. I'm not terribly familiar with the process, but I dug up a few links to get you started... This page describes the process: http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/big-eight.html Here's a handbook for would-be moderators: http://www.landfield.com/usenet/moderators/handbook/ Here's a FAQ: http://www.swcp.com/~dmckeon/mod-faq.html And here's a page describing some of the problems & pitfalls: http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/mod-pitfalls.html ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
Jim
Absolutely! That IS the best SOLUTION. List members can and SHOULD do that. Regards Anil Kaushik Bonsai Club (India) Chandigarh "The City Beautiful" If only we WOULD ignore them -- but we don't. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
On 26 Feb 2005 at 1:29, Wayne C. Morris wrote:
Well, I decided to take a quick look at the first and immediately discovered: "There is currently a moratorium on converting unmoderated newsgroups to moderated newsgroups, and proposals of that type will not be accepted." So, it was a thought. :-( jim I'm not terribly familiar with the process, but I dug up a few links to get you started... This page describes the process: http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/big-eight.html Here's a handbook for would-be moderators: http://www.landfield.com/usenet/moderators/handbook/ Here's a FAQ: http://www.swcp.com/~dmckeon/mod-faq.html And here's a page describing some of the problems & pitfalls: http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/mod-pitfalls.html ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
I am for ignoring the problem - somehow I just know which posts don't have
anything to do with Bonsai and somehow I avoid reading them. We spend too much time arguing about the problem and not enough effort ignoring the idiots. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
I couldn't agree more. From local forsale newsgroups to programmers
newsgroups, the people here are nice and the spam is at a minimum. If you check Ziff Davis and other online/offline newsletters and magazines, spam is increasing exponentially. It is simply getting worse and worse. I see very little here compared to elsewhere. In the last issue, much was caused simply from cross-posting. Set the mailing list to block cross-posts and then just us in RAB will get the crap. I didn't see any posts from RAB members personally...just cross posts in that last go-round. Bonsai engenders almost no crossposting at all and would block maybe one in several hundred valid posts...which would still get to RAB and if us RAB guys answered it, it would make it to the mailing list. If Jim wanted to clue me in on the service we use to send to a mailing list from a newsgroup, I might could help implement that. My (informed) $0.02 worth. Like some of these other RAB posts mention, we are used to it and it really isn't that bad...comparitively speaking to what's going on lately. If you take alt.autos.ford, probably 30% of the new threads are crap. John still in Houston "Nina" wrote in message oups.com... Every once in a while I consider joining another group; I listen to the other group (Jazz, art, whatever) for a while and realize how GREAT this group is- we are literate, we stay on topic, and we are nice. Our problems with spammers and idiots are minor. I like the community of my dear friends on the maillist, but I'd like to reach out to newbies and lurkers on RAB without having to hang out there. My time is limited and I have a dial-up connection! Nina |
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Hi Jim
why not send every monday an automatic mail suggesting memebers not to loose time in idle talk ar answering to banter/OT topics .. after all most of people are "supposed to be adult* here and might understand .. In the french and some Italians site every monday the chart of the NG is automatically published . why not to do something here as well ? my and only 2 cents to this topic Theo Jim Lewis wrote: On 26 Feb 2005 at 1:29, Wayne C. Morris wrote: Well, I decided to take a quick look at the first and immediately discovered: "There is currently a moratorium on converting unmoderated newsgroups to moderated newsgroups, and proposals of that type will not be accepted." So, it was a thought. :-( jim I'm not terribly familiar with the process, but I dug up a few links to get you started... This page describes the process: http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/big-eight.html Here's a handbook for would-be moderators: http://www.landfield.com/usenet/moderators/handbook/ Here's a FAQ: http://www.swcp.com/~dmckeon/mod-faq.html And here's a page describing some of the problems & pitfalls: http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/mod-pitfalls.html ************************************************ ******************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************ ******************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ -- MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» |
Dear Shelly
Immediately place offenders on a filter list, i usually use del key without wasting any time to read or reply. , i have no knowledge of RAB. keep up the difficult job of list owner. ovais Pakistan Bonsai Society ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
Bonsai lurker wrote:
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:01:32 +0100, Eltee wrote: Your isp can ban people from inappropriate posting on USENET, if, the group is classified as a moderated group. I don't know if this one is but surely one of the mods knows. If it is moderated, you can then report the spammers for posting off topic and harrassing posts. The reputable ones, especially the large USENET providers will warn their customers. Not 100% effective but it deters most nuisance posters. I'd hate to rain on your parade but your "Not 100% effective" could as well be "Not 10% effective". And that's not the worst news. The worst news is that with just a little header hack one can bypass any moderation on any newsgroup. Not even a hack, mind you. Just the right header. And ... one more thing, dear lurker: A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is it such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail? That's not spam you're dealing with, Carl. There's a big difference. And your ISP knows it. Besides, your ISP can't ban anybody from posting to Usenet NGs. Usenet is a distributed network. It would take _all_ the ISPs (in the world!) to completely ban somebody. |
Bonsai lurker wrote:
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:01:32 +0100, Eltee wrote: Your isp can ban people from inappropriate posting on USENET, if, the group is classified as a moderated group. I don't know if this one is but surely one of the mods knows. If it is moderated, you can then report the spammers for posting off topic and harrassing posts. The reputable ones, especially the large USENET providers will warn their customers. Not 100% effective but it deters most nuisance posters. I'd hate to rain on your parade but your "Not 100% effective" could as well be "Not 10% effective". And that's not the worst news. The worst news is that with just a little header hack one can bypass any moderation on any newsgroup. Not even a hack, mind you. Just the right header. And ... one more thing, dear lurker: A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is it such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail? That's not spam you're dealing with, Carl. There's a big difference. And your ISP knows it. Besides, your ISP can't ban anybody from posting to Usenet NGs. Usenet is a distributed network. It would take _all_ the ISPs (in the world!) to completely ban somebody. |
I would like to see some moderation of the junk that is associated with this
list. One of the main problem is that many list members appear to reply to many of this type of post, or is this just other spammers making it look like this. Has any body thought to banning members who reply to spam. I am willing to agree to any measure that would cut some, most , all of the rubbish out. Lynette Sydney Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shelly Hurd" To: Sent: Saturday, 26 February 2005 3:23 Subject: [IBC] Admin - R.A.B. - Long LIST. Which would you prefer. For the purpose of open discussion, please post ALL replies to the list. Shelly Hurd - List Owner/Manager ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Gregory Brenden++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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