First of all, thanks to everyone who responded to my post about red
maples. As a beginner, this group is a lot of help to me.

Today I drove quite a long distance to go to a bonsai nursery called
Bonsai Northwest. It turns out that until now what I've seen is
pictures of really cool bonsais, and in-real-life bonsais of the type
that you buy for someone when you can't figure out what to get them for
Christmas and they subsequently kill because they don't know that
junipers have to be outdoors.

All I can say is "Wow." It turns out that a picture of a really cool
bonsai only conveys about 1/100th of it's coolness. I'm both excited
about the possibilites and depressed about the collection of hacked up
junipers and boxwoods on my patio. I guess part of my lesson of the
day is that it looks like if you buy an unpromising plant and bust your
backside for the better part of a decade, you can have a respectable
looking bonsai. On the other hand, if you buy an already great plant
and bust your butt for the better part of a decade (and somehow learn
some skill along the way), you can make a bonsai that is a wonder to
behold.

It's probably still worth it for me to work on average plants because I
need to figure out what I'm doing somehow, but I can now see as how
buying $12 red maples at the hardware store probably isn't what bonsai
masters do.

So anyway, my question is totally unrelated to this. Is there any good
books about bonsai that people recommend? Pretty much all of the ones
I've seen are beginning surveys of the techniques, which is fine but
there's only so many of those you need to read.

Thanks again!

Scooter:

You have come upon a major truth about bonsai. Congratulations!

My first reaction is to suggest that you ask the folks at Bonsai Northwest
(Seattle?) your book question and BUY IT FROM THEM. Then you will have
demonstrated your sincerity and willingness to "pay" for information and can
feel entitled to keep on asking questions.

However, you indicate that it's a long trip for you, so let's try another
approach.

First, the book: I'd recommend John Naka's Bonsai Techniques I. Read between
the lines, see how you do with it, then, perhaps go to the second book,
Bonsai Techniques II. Do NOT buy them on eBay. Then can be bought at list
price from either Bonsai Clubs International or the American Bonsai Society.
Keep your beginner books. Most of them have solid info on how to keep your
trees alive. Others will recommend other books. Use your local library. If
they don't have the book you want, they can usually get it from another
library.

Next, find a club, and if possible, a teacher. While there's a lot of good
info on the internet, there's no substitute for personal contact.

The next step is to find what trees work for you. Ones with cultural and
maintenance needs that match what you (and your climate) can give. For this
process, I use little trees until I learn if the species can survive in my
care.

Good luck!

Bart
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scooter the Mighty"
To:
Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 12:53 AM
Subject: [IBC] Thanks, pointless pontificating, and another question.


First of all, thanks to everyone who responded to my post about red
maples. As a beginner, this group is a lot of help to me.

Today I drove quite a long distance to go to a bonsai nursery called
Bonsai Northwest. It turns out that until now what I've seen is
pictures of really cool bonsais, and in-real-life bonsais of the type
that you buy for someone when you can't figure out what to get them for
Christmas and they subsequently kill because they don't know that
junipers have to be outdoors.

All I can say is "Wow." It turns out that a picture of a really cool
bonsai only conveys about 1/100th of it's coolness. I'm both excited
about the possibilites and depressed about the collection of hacked up
junipers and boxwoods on my patio. I guess part of my lesson of the
day is that it looks like if you buy an unpromising plant and bust your
backside for the better part of a decade, you can have a respectable
looking bonsai. On the other hand, if you buy an already great plant
and bust your butt for the better part of a decade (and somehow learn
some skill along the way), you can make a bonsai that is a wonder to
behold.

It's probably still worth it for me to work on average plants because I
need to figure out what I'm doing somehow, but I can now see as how
buying $12 red maples at the hardware store probably isn't what bonsai
masters do.

So anyway, my question is totally unrelated to this. Is there any good
books about bonsai that people recommend? Pretty much all of the ones
I've seen are beginning surveys of the techniques, which is fine but
there's only so many of those you need to read.

Thanks again!

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Dear Scooter,
Your post started OK when you said that it might take 10 years to produce a
good bonsai; but then you drifted a bit when you implied that it's better to
buy a good bonsai to start with and save the 10 years of effort. I learned,
over a period of 45 years in bonsai, that the beauty in bonsai is in the
process, not the result. Watching your tree develop over 10 years is far
more important than enjoying one which someone else has created.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scooter the Mighty"
To:
Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 12:53 AM
Subject: [IBC] Thanks, pointless pontificating, and another question.


First of all, thanks to everyone who responded to my post about red
maples. As a beginner, this group is a lot of help to me.

Today I drove quite a long distance to go to a bonsai nursery called
Bonsai Northwest. It turns out that until now what I've seen is
pictures of really cool bonsais, and in-real-life bonsais of the type
that you buy for someone when you can't figure out what to get them for
Christmas and they subsequently kill because they don't know that
junipers have to be outdoors.

All I can say is "Wow." It turns out that a picture of a really cool
bonsai only conveys about 1/100th of it's coolness. I'm both excited
about the possibilites and depressed about the collection of hacked up
junipers and boxwoods on my patio. I guess part of my lesson of the
day is that it looks like if you buy an unpromising plant and bust your
backside for the better part of a decade, you can have a respectable
looking bonsai. On the other hand, if you buy an already great plant
and bust your butt for the better part of a decade (and somehow learn
some skill along the way), you can make a bonsai that is a wonder to
behold.

It's probably still worth it for me to work on average plants because I
need to figure out what I'm doing somehow, but I can now see as how
buying $12 red maples at the hardware store probably isn't what bonsai
masters do.

So anyway, my question is totally unrelated to this. Is there any good
books about bonsai that people recommend? Pretty much all of the ones
I've seen are beginning surveys of the techniques, which is fine but
there's only so many of those you need to read.

Thanks again!

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++


************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

First of all, thanks to everyone who responded to my post about red
maples. As a beginner, this group is a lot of help to me.


That's what we're for . . .

snip

'm both excited
about the possibilites and depressed about the collection of hacked up
junipers and boxwoods on my patio. I guess part of my lesson of the
day is that it looks like if you buy an unpromising plant and bust your
backside for the better part of a decade, you can have a respectable
looking bonsai. On the other hand, if you buy an already great plant
and bust your butt for the better part of a decade (and somehow learn
some skill along the way), you can make a bonsai that is a wonder to
behold.


Some of it is why you are interested in bonsai in the first
place. You may find that its the path to the bonsai that is the
most rewarding, not necessarily owning or doing THE prize-
winning tree. It may be doing as well as you can, but not being
the world's bonsai poobah. It may just be the peace and
tranquillity while you sit among your trees -- and we all can
use more of that.

It's probably still worth it for me to work on average plants because I
need to figure out what I'm doing somehow, but I can now see as how
buying $12 red maples at the hardware store probably isn't what bonsai
masters do.

If they're out to prove "mastership" they may do just that; how
better to show what you can do than to take a clunker and make a
ferrari out of it?

But you're right (and see above for, perhaps, a better outlook ;-
). Probably most "masterpiece" trees were other-than-hardware
specimens. Time was when the masterpieces were all collected
trees, but that's becoming more and more difficult these days,
and carefully nurtured nursery or home-grown trees are the more
likely candidates today.


So anyway, my question is totally unrelated to this. Is there any good
books about bonsai that people recommend? Pretty much all of the ones
I've seen are beginning surveys of the techniques, which is fine but
there's only so many of those you need to read.

I suggest you look at the Book Review and Knowledge Base
Sections of the IBC website (URL below). Bart's advice is
excellent, also.

For bonsai design "standards" and how-to, I suggest David
DeGroot's "Basic Bonsai Design" as THE best to start with. It
is available from the American Bonsai Society only, as far as I
know. Colin Lewis' "The Art of Bonsai Design" gives you insight
into his philosophy. Another Brit, Peter Adams has a series of
now-hard-to-find books that deal with the how-to of design.
www.bibliofind.com or www.abebooks.com will be your best bets
for Peter's books. Deborah Koreshoff's book -- "Bonsai: It's
Art, Science, History and Philosophy" -- is, perhaps, the best
overall bonsai text out there today. It may be out of print now
and if so that's a shame, but would be available at either of
the above URLs. I just got Charles Ceronio's "Bonsai Styles of
the World" which is very useful, but overly expensive.

Jim Lewis - - This economy is a wholly
owned subsidiary of the environment. - Gaylord Nelson

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Dear Scooter,
Your post started OK when you said that it might take 10 years to
produce a
good bonsai; but then you drifted a bit when you implied that it's
better to
buy a good bonsai to start with and save the 10 years of effort. I
learned,
over a period of 45 years in bonsai, that the beauty in bonsai is in
the
process, not the result. Watching your tree develop over 10 years is
far
more important than enjoying one which someone else has created.

*********
I believe you misread me. I was saying it was going to be 10 years
either way, so why not start with good material and end up with a
better product? I didn't particularly mean buying premade bonsais
either, just starting from promising stock.

Thanks for your comments though. I agree that process is most of the
fun

HI Marty
each side has his positive and negative side
the discussion is endless
why exist trade of bonsai in a different stage of growth ?
for those who appreciate to start at a defined point ..
some people have time ahead of them to grow from seedlings some others
wants to enjoy the sight of a bonsai made by someone else .. or give
tehir personal print to something taht nature made herself like in
yamadori
if you wish a Van Gogh you can paint it yourself
or buy a printed copy of the original
or buy the original
each of them will bring you a different kind of satisfaction
the same for bonsai no absolute truth



Marty Haber wrote:

Dear Scooter,
Your post started OK when you said that it might take 10 years to
produce a good bonsai; but then you drifted a bit when you implied that
it's better to buy a good bonsai to start with and save the 10 years of
effort. I learned, over a period of 45 years in bonsai, that the beauty
in bonsai is in the process, not the result. Watching your tree develop
over 10 years is far more important than enjoying one which someone else
has created.

Scooter,

Both Jim and Marty's advice is good, I too learned long ago that for me the
joy of bonsai is more in the --doing-- than anything else. Yes, I enjoy
going out and looking at the tree's I worked on for years and telling myself
that finally they're bonsai, but I've also got quite a few I had for years
that are still dogs, and not surprisingly I get great joy from them too.

Peter Chen's Bonsai Master Class is a very good book (IMHO) and our own Herb
Gustafson has several, The Bonsai Workshop comes immediately to mind.

When you learn to be at peace with what you're working on, and can see in
your mind where it's going in the future, you'll be making great strides in
the joy of bonsai.

Regards,
Shelly Hurd - Central CA - Sunset Zone 8-USDA Zone 9



----- Original Message -----
From: "Scooter the Mighty"

SNIP
All I can say is "Wow." It turns out that a picture of a really cool
bonsai only conveys about 1/100th of it's coolness. I'm both excited
about the possibilites and depressed about the collection of hacked up
junipers and boxwoods on my patio. I guess part of my lesson of the
day is that it looks like if you buy an unpromising plant and bust your
backside for the better part of a decade, you can have a respectable
looking bonsai. On the other hand, if you buy an already great plant
and bust your butt for the better part of a decade (and somehow learn
some skill along the way), you can make a bonsai that is a wonder to
behold.
SNIP
So anyway, my question is totally unrelated to this. Is there any good
books about bonsai that people recommend? Pretty much all of the ones
I've seen are beginning surveys of the techniques, which is fine but
there's only so many of those you need to read.

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Edmund Castillo++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++