From what little I know of plant biology/nomenclature, this plant shouldn't
exist as a distinct species.

It is not a distinct species; it is a hybrid. The full name is xPyracomeles
vilmorinii. (The "x" in front of the name is actually a times sign.) I found a
complete entry in the Hillier manual. The parents are Pyracantha
crenato-serrata x Osteomeles anthyllidifolia var. subrotunda. The leaves follow
the habit of the Osteomeles parent, being partly pinnate & partly lobed. Also
according to Hillier, it does have fruits. Apparently some specimens do, &
perhaps some are sterile. It originated in cultivation somewhere in France
before 1922. It is listed on the Web as being hardy in Zones 6 to 9. It is also
reported to be resistant to salt spray and air pollution. Apparently there are
no named cultivars. It must be fairly easy to grow from seed, or difficult from
cuttings.

Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

It must be fairly easy to grow from seed, or difficult from
cuttings.

But . . . if you can grow it from seed, what would you get?
AFIK, hybrids (almost by definition) are mules (sterile) and can
only be propagated vegetatively. If seeds are viable, that says
sexual reproduction works, and the resulting seedling
could/would/may be entirely different from either of its parents
(and how could you be certain who both parents were, anyway,
plants and their pollen being the promiscuous things that they
are?). Presumably (?) pollen from either of the originating
species could have done the dirty deed.

If it DOES reproduce sexually (and more or less true to type)
wouldn't that be the first (or even last) step to species-hood?

Puzzled, perplexed, and bewildered.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - "People,
when Columbus discovered this country, it was plum full of nuts
and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just
about all gone." -- Uncle Dave Macon, old-time musician

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But . . . if you can grow it from seed, what would you get? AFIK, hybrids
(almost by definition) are mules (sterile) and can only be propagated
vegetatively.

That is not at all true. It is more likely to be true in animals, but people
have been breeding plant hybrids for hundreds of years. God has been
experimenting with them for longer than that.

If seeds are viable, that says sexual reproduction works, and the resulting
seedling
could/would/may be entirely different from either of its parents

Not necessarily. First-generation plant hybrids are generally intermediate
between the parents, with occasional exceptions.

(and how could you be certain who both parents were, anyway, plants and
their pollen being the promiscuous things that they are?)

Not as promiscuous as you think. When a bee sets out for a certain plant, she
will go from one plant of that species to the next until she is through.
Pollinators rarely skip around, which is why natural hybrids are actually quite
rare. Unusual hybrids may occur when man plants near each other two related
plants which come from opposite ends of the earth & have no natural
hybridization barriers. This is how we got the Dunkeld larch, and was probably
the origin of the Pyracomeles and xFatshedera lizei. The parentage of such
plants is usually obvious to the naked eye, & also determined by logic due to
the presence of both parents, but today many natural hybrids are being
determined by advanced microscopic techniques.

Presumably (?) pollen from either of the originating species could have done
the dirty deed.

The name of a plant hybrid is the same regardless of which is the seed or
pollen parent. I am not familiar with all animal hybrids, but the differences
between hinnies & mules, and ligers & tiglons, is significant enough to warrant
different names.

If it DOES reproduce sexually (and more or less true to type) wouldn't that
be the first (or even last) step to species-hood?

It might in nature, but here we are talking about a spontaneous garden hybrid,
which is something different.


Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

I agree with everything Iris says except (possibly) this bit:-

and was probably
the origin of the Pyracomeles and xFatshedera lizei. The parentage of
such
plants is usually obvious to the naked eye, & also determined by logic
due to
the presence of both parents, but today many natural hybrids are being
determined by advanced microscopic techniques.

I'm sure I recall reading somewhere that Pyracomeles is a chimera
created through grafting. Tried a web search to confirm this but can't
find anything on it. Perhaps my memory is faulty? Does anyone else know
any more?

Cheers

Kev Bailey





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In a message dated 3/8/03 3:23:31 PM,
writes:
I'm sure I recall reading somewhere that Pyracomeles is a chimera created
through grafting.

If Pyracomeles were a graft chimera, it would be noted in the Hillier manual.
It is a (probably) spontaneous garden hybrid like the Dunkeld larch. There
are a number of graft chimeras in the Rosaceae. In writing the name of a
graft chimera, the + sign is put in front of it, rather than x.
Iris

"God always answers prayers... Sometimes the answer is No."
Billy Graham

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