n writes:
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
Charlie wrote in message
On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 18:02:59 +1000, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given
wrote:

Well the US is blessed in many ways with less marginal land/climate
positive
factors than we are/have, so perhaps the effects aren't so evident to
your
people, but I am frequently amazed at some of the comments I see about
global warning from US residents. Denial is the most frequent
response.
No-one here is doing that anymore - even our Prime Minister has finally
realised that it's a problem and he's a good friend of Geo. Bush.

You wouldn't believe some of the comments you hear from US residents
about a a great number of deadly issues.......it's frightening and sad.
We are in a world of hurt here, and it isn't looking better, day by
day. From your other post is sounds as if Oz is headed down the same
path.

Hey...we dragged the Ozzites into our stupid war. Their guvmint's even
putting the same stuff in the kool-aid to get their subjects to believe
the war's a great thing.

Actually that is not quite right. Before the Iraq war, the opinion polls
in
Oz were 65% AGAINST the war whereas in the US it was about the same
percentage FOR the war. Our PM made the decision to send troops off in
the
face of strong local opposition and that opposition has hardened more but
not hugely for the time that our troops have been a way. Our PM, who is
quite cunning sometimes, also obviously realised that body bags were not
a
good look for him so he only sent a very few troops (IIRC it's in the
order
of about 1200 troops) and made sure that they were in a relatively safe
area
of Iraq. That way, he could be seen to be supporting our allies but
wasn't
running too great a risk. Bush can still claim that the US has an ally
in
Oz but given that our contribution is so small, he's obviously desperate
to
continue to have any allies.

Australia has always been one of my hoped-for travel destinations so it
matters what you folks think of us. Hopefully, you folks don't believe
the media reports (read: government reports) about the support for the war
by those in the U.S. I suspect those support percentages are inflated or
carefully "collected." While we in our area are not notorious current
administration supporters, there was only one person I knew who supported
the invasion. Irony? She professes to be a christian (lower case
deliberate) - which brings me to a sign posted pre-invasion at our local
raceway, "Who would Jesus bomb?" Of course, none of her children are in
the military - though the way things are going, the draft will catch her
youngest. (Did I say "draft?" If our current administration attacks Iraq
as well, where do people think these troops are going to come from?)

Since a child and learning of Hitler's "actions" regarding large segments
of Germany and neighboring countries population, I wondered how the people
of that country could allow their government to do such horrible things.
Tragically, we are getting a lesson in that now with what our own
administration is doing. It (he!) keeps telling us that we are "safer"
now when reality indicates to me that it is exactly what "we" are doing
that is breeding hatred and more terrorists. I'm wondering how many of us
would do things we thought we never could if we were faced with the
horrors "we" (read: our government) are responsible for inflicting in a
country who did not ask us to visit.

Apart from the horrors being experienced by so many because of our
administration's decisions, is the truly tragic idea that the rest of the
world gets of U.S. citizens. Most of us would never deliberately do what
has been done, yet we are guilty by being here and not stopping it. It is
beyond my comprehension how enough people voted for that person for him to
continue (note omission of "to get elected or re-elected"). Now, the
current administration has "altered" laws enough that it would be highly
unlikely any real movement for change could be rapid, not while he is
still there. To the credit of our country, there was a house-cleaning
last year in the legislative branch of our government, but sadly not
enough. Perhaps next year will finish it, but four years (or rather
eight) too late for hundreds of thousands of innocent people. There is no
way this can have a good outcome because of what has already happened.
"Damage control" is the term so often used when prevention works so much
better so there is no need for "damage control."

The garden is my life line. I take care of it, and it responds. Usually,
that response is good food to eat. The least I get from it is being
closer to where the entire world (especially our "developed" nations)
needs to be, in tune with nature. The wonder of watching things grow is
necessary to our own internal harmony. It was my garden which helped me
take major steps towards the very difficult adjustment after my son's
death, being reminded every day how things really can continue and even
flourish in spite of us humans.

Glenna
[off soapbox for own peace of mind]

"Glenna Rose" wrote in message
news:fc.003d09410231090d3b9aca002b3f1551.23109b6@p mug.org...
Australia has always been one of my hoped-for travel destinations so it
matters what you folks think of us.

Until fairly recently Australians mostly had a fairly positive view of the
USA. There is that history of allies during war and economic cooperation.
However recent polls have shown that our opinion of you is now much lower,
the main issue being the Iraq war and the main cause being GWB.

Hopefully, you folks don't believe
the media reports (read: government reports) about the support for the war
by those in the U.S. I suspect those support percentages are inflated or
carefully "collected." While we in our area are not notorious current
administration supporters, there was only one person I knew who supported
the invasion. Irony? She professes to be a christian (lower case
deliberate) - which brings me to a sign posted pre-invasion at our local
raceway, "Who would Jesus bomb?"

Oz is a largely secular State. Anybody who wants to mix politcs and
religion is likely to be considerd by the great majority as not doing the
right thing or a religious nutcase. Rarely religious leaders cross this
line and when they do are often roundly condemned for it. The influence of
the religious right on USA politics is not well known here but the cause for
much head shaking among those who know about it.

Of course, none of her children are in
the military - though the way things are going, the draft will catch her
youngest. (Did I say "draft?" If our current administration attacks Iraq
as well, where do people think these troops are going to come from?)

Since a child and learning of Hitler's "actions" regarding large segments
of Germany and neighboring countries population, I wondered how the people
of that country could allow their government to do such horrible things.
Tragically, we are getting a lesson in that now with what our own
administration is doing. It (he!) keeps telling us that we are "safer"
now when reality indicates to me that it is exactly what "we" are doing
that is breeding hatred and more terrorists.

Our PM didn't have majority support for the war when it all started and has
less now. He will get his comeuppance at the next election in about 2
months.

....snip....


The garden is my life line. I take care of it, and it responds. Usually,
that response is good food to eat. The least I get from it is being
closer to where the entire world (especially our "developed" nations)
needs to be, in tune with nature. The wonder of watching things grow is
necessary to our own internal harmony.

I am not sure about necessary but for many it does add to their harmony.

It was my garden which helped me
take major steps towards the very difficult adjustment after my son's
death, being reminded every day how things really can continue and even
flourish in spite of us humans.


It's hard to be angry or sad when you immerse yourself in the world of
growing things. To me it is nearly as good as surfing (which I cannot do
anymore) because it fills your senses with the immediate and the beautiful
and occupies your body with the physical thus diverting the mind from its
internal problems. Surfing and growing are both powerful modes of active
meditation of more practical value to health than focussing on pie in the
sky when you die.

David

Glenna Rose wrote:
n writes:
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
Charlie wrote in message
On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 18:02:59 +1000, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given
wrote:

Well the US is blessed in many ways with less marginal land/climate
positive
factors than we are/have, so perhaps the effects aren't so evident to
your
people, but I am frequently amazed at some of the comments I see about
global warning from US residents. Denial is the most frequent
response.
No-one here is doing that anymore - even our Prime Minister has finally
realised that it's a problem and he's a good friend of Geo. Bush.

You wouldn't believe some of the comments you hear from US residents
about a a great number of deadly issues.......it's frightening and sad.
We are in a world of hurt here, and it isn't looking better, day by
day. From your other post is sounds as if Oz is headed down the same
path.

Hey...we dragged the Ozzites into our stupid war. Their guvmint's even
putting the same stuff in the kool-aid to get their subjects to believe
the war's a great thing.

Actually that is not quite right. Before the Iraq war, the opinion polls
in
Oz were 65% AGAINST the war whereas in the US it was about the same
percentage FOR the war. Our PM made the decision to send troops off in
the
face of strong local opposition and that opposition has hardened more but
not hugely for the time that our troops have been a way. Our PM, who is
quite cunning sometimes, also obviously realised that body bags were not
a
good look for him so he only sent a very few troops (IIRC it's in the
order
of about 1200 troops) and made sure that they were in a relatively safe
area
of Iraq. That way, he could be seen to be supporting our allies but
wasn't
running too great a risk. Bush can still claim that the US has an ally
in
Oz but given that our contribution is so small, he's obviously desperate
to
continue to have any allies.

Australia has always been one of my hoped-for travel destinations so it
matters what you folks think of us. Hopefully, you folks don't believe
the media reports (read: government reports) about the support for the war
by those in the U.S. I suspect those support percentages are inflated or
carefully "collected." While we in our area are not notorious current
administration supporters, there was only one person I knew who supported
the invasion. Irony? She professes to be a christian (lower case
deliberate) - which brings me to a sign posted pre-invasion at our local
raceway, "Who would Jesus bomb?" Of course, none of her children are in
the military - though the way things are going, the draft will catch her
youngest. (Did I say "draft?" If our current administration attacks Iraq
as well, where do people think these troops are going to come from?)

Since a child and learning of Hitler's "actions" regarding large segments
of Germany and neighboring countries population, I wondered how the people
of that country could allow their government to do such horrible things.
Tragically, we are getting a lesson in that now with what our own
administration is doing. It (he!) keeps telling us that we are "safer"
now when reality indicates to me that it is exactly what "we" are doing
that is breeding hatred and more terrorists. I'm wondering how many of us
would do things we thought we never could if we were faced with the
horrors "we" (read: our government) are responsible for inflicting in a
country who did not ask us to visit.

Apart from the horrors being experienced by so many because of our
administration's decisions, is the truly tragic idea that the rest of the
world gets of U.S. citizens. Most of us would never deliberately do what
has been done, yet we are guilty by being here and not stopping it. It is
beyond my comprehension how enough people voted for that person for him to
continue (note omission of "to get elected or re-elected"). Now, the
current administration has "altered" laws enough that it would be highly
unlikely any real movement for change could be rapid, not while he is
still there. To the credit of our country, there was a house-cleaning
last year in the legislative branch of our government, but sadly not
enough. Perhaps next year will finish it, but four years (or rather
eight) too late for hundreds of thousands of innocent people. There is no
way this can have a good outcome because of what has already happened.
"Damage control" is the term so often used when prevention works so much
better so there is no need for "damage control."

The garden is my life line. I take care of it, and it responds. Usually,
that response is good food to eat. The least I get from it is being
closer to where the entire world (especially our "developed" nations)
needs to be, in tune with nature. The wonder of watching things grow is
necessary to our own internal harmony. It was my garden which helped me
take major steps towards the very difficult adjustment after my son's
death, being reminded every day how things really can continue and even
flourish in spite of us humans.

Glenna
[off soapbox for own peace of mind]

imho the only reason "he" (King George Junior) remains is that daddy
is a director of the CI rhymes with hay. A lifetime position. He would
never have gotten INTO office w/o that ballbat backup that the supreme
court justices (appointed by daddy) most assuredly know about and
fear. Present tense. Nothing different from GGdaddy who raped the
American West and killed thousands to curtail Labor Strikes and sold
guns to both sides in the Civil War, or Gdaddy who financed little
adolph through five different banks: Repeatedly the US tried to freeze
the assets, and every time gdaddy (& company) transferred the funds
destined for little adolph to a different bank on paper, just before
they could be been frozen by the US Government. It's the family
history: profiteering on human death and misery.

"A tyrant is always stirring up some war or other, in order that the
people may require a leader." -Plato

Obviously Plato didn't understand the role of money.~/

"Glenna Rose" wrote in message
n writes:

Actually that is not quite right. Before the Iraq war, the opinion polls
in
Oz were 65% AGAINST the war whereas in the US it was about the same
percentage FOR the war. Our PM made the decision to send troops off in
the
face of strong local opposition and that opposition has hardened more but
not hugely for the time that our troops have been a way. Our PM, who is
quite cunning sometimes, also obviously realised that body bags were not
a
good look for him so he only sent a very few troops (IIRC it's in the
order
of about 1200 troops) and made sure that they were in a relatively safe
area
of Iraq. That way, he could be seen to be supporting our allies but
wasn't
running too great a risk. Bush can still claim that the US has an ally
in
Oz but given that our contribution is so small, he's obviously desperate
to
continue to have any allies.

Australia has always been one of my hoped-for travel destinations so it
matters what you folks think of us.

Unfortunately I think that Bush has done the US a lot of harm to it's
international reputation, but don't let that worry you since he's on is way
out. The next President you get may appear to have a brain.

Americans I've met have all been charming people and since political beliefs
are usually the last thing one discusses with a tourist, just delay any
foreign travel plans till he goes.

Hopefully, you folks don't believe
the media reports (read: government reports) about the support for the war
by those in the U.S. I suspect those support percentages are inflated or
carefully "collected."

The figures I saw about support for the war in the US were all prior to the
US going into Iraq - it was in the phase where Bush was trying to garner
support to take subsequent action. If my memory serves me right, the stats
was from a variety of news related sources (and I would have been very
suspicious of any US government figures on anything). At the time it made
sense to me that this would be an accurate reflection of US opinion given
that the Administration was running the WMD, revenge type scenario. Lets
face it, the Administration did THE most blatant manipulation of public
opinion that I think I've ever seen. Sadly it seemed to work at the time.

Anyway, the opinion polls also seemed to reflect the sort of opinion that
was regularly expressed in one of the (politically conservative) ngs I was
reading most frequently at that time. In that ng, there were only 3 regular
non US posters (who were all anti going to Iraq) and about 3 US poster who
was against going to Iraq. All the rest of the posters in the US seemed to
be strongly in favour (this ng was dominated by those who lived in the US).
I notice that the support has now dropped away to the extent that now there
would probably only be about 3 Americans who actively support the war -
needless to say, I thought those individuals were knuckledraggers when thye
expressed thier opinion pre war and I've seen no reason to thing that htye
are any different based on thier posting history since the start of the war.

While we in our area are not notorious current
administration supporters, there was only one person I knew who supported
the invasion. Irony? She professes to be a christian (lower case
deliberate) - which brings me to a sign posted pre-invasion at our local
raceway, "Who would Jesus bomb?" Of course, none of her children are in
the military - though the way things are going, the draft will catch her
youngest. (Did I say "draft?" If our current administration attacks Iraq
as well, where do people think these troops are going to come from?)

I know just what you mean. Religious fundies always worry me whether they
are christain fundies or any other sort. I much prefer to associate with
those who are lapsed or atheist. They don't think that their God is right
and/or will protect them.

Since a child and learning of Hitler's "actions" regarding large segments
of Germany and neighboring countries population, I wondered how the people
of that country could allow their government to do such horrible things.
Tragically, we are getting a lesson in that now with what our own
administration is doing. It (he!) keeps telling us that we are "safer"
now when reality indicates to me that it is exactly what "we" are doing
that is breeding hatred and more terrorists.

Nicely put. It always stuns me that we are being fed bullshit to make us
fear ridden about the dangers of terrorism so that we will accept, without
due criticism, the means that our respective governments are introducing to
'protect' us. The fact is that we are losing those things which a truly
'free' society should value most in order to catch a few 'terrorists',
nutters, fanatics or whatever.

I'm wondering how many of us
would do things we thought we never could if we were faced with the
horrors "we" (read: our government) are responsible for inflicting in a
country who did not ask us to visit.

Apart from the horrors being experienced by so many because of our
administration's decisions, is the truly tragic idea that the rest of the
world gets of U.S. citizens. Most of us would never deliberately do what
has been done, yet we are guilty by being here and not stopping it. It is
beyond my comprehension how enough people voted for that person for him to
continue (note omission of "to get elected or re-elected"). Now, the
current administration has "altered" laws enough that it would be highly
unlikely any real movement for change could be rapid, not while he is
still there. To the credit of our country, there was a house-cleaning
last year in the legislative branch of our government, but sadly not
enough. Perhaps next year will finish it, but four years (or rather
eight) too late for hundreds of thousands of innocent people. There is no
way this can have a good outcome because of what has already happened.
"Damage control" is the term so often used when prevention works so much
better so there is no need for "damage control."

Yes. I won't comment because I will probably mention Guantanamo Bay, and
then have to put my boot through my computer screen as I froth at the mouth.
My only consolation at the appalling nature of our current government is
that it isn't as bad as yours. That is not much comfort to you, but I do
feel for you.

I will also say that I actually despaired of America and Americans a few
years ago, but lately I have come back to thinking that they are the good
and decent people that I used to think they were. It was like the whole of
America had suddenly lost any capacity for reasoned thought.

For a long time before and after the start of the Iraq war, it seemed to me
that no American would tolerate less than total and wholehearted support for
any action the US wanted to take against anyone, for any reason whatsoever.

That sort of reaction worried me at the time but I feel more heartened at
what I'm recently reading from American posters of more recent times.

The garden is my life line. I take care of it, and it responds. Usually,
that response is good food to eat. The least I get from it is being
closer to where the entire world (especially our "developed" nations)
needs to be, in tune with nature. The wonder of watching things grow is
necessary to our own internal harmony. It was my garden which helped me
take major steps towards the very difficult adjustment after my son's
death, being reminded every day how things really can continue and even
flourish in spite of us humans.

I do know what you mean even though I have had no such sad circumstances as
you have had to live through. Please accept my heartfelt sympathy although
I know that nothing I could ever say could ease your pain.

I too have found my garden a solace as I recovered from cancer therapy. I
was burned to a crisp from radiation therapy and as weak as a kitten from
the operation, the lack of appetite and chemotherapy but would go out and
drag rocks around rebuilding, manuring, digging and planting what I called
my 'hard, hungry bed'. If I couldn't do something I would occasionally ask
my husband to move a single stone but I tried to do as much of it on my own
as a life affirming experience. I now look at this bed and feel good just
by looking at it. It's not the prettiest or the best flower bed I have but
it is the one of which I am most fond. It doesn't worry me one iota that
no-one but my husband can understand why this bed speaks to me.

As I worked, I used to think of a haiku that I read many years ago. I've
forgotten how to put it into the form of a haiku but the words we
"A man truly understands the meaning of life when he plants a shade tree
under which he knows he will not sit".

Glenna
[off soapbox for own peace of mind]

And that comment also resonates with me. At times switching off is all we
can do if we are to try to stay in any way sane.

In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

However recent polls have shown that our opinion of you is now much lower,
the main issue being the Iraq war and the main cause being GWB.

Hell, David, our opinion of us is lower because of Dubya too.
--
FB - FFF

Billy

Get up, stand up, stand up for yor rights.
Get up, stand up, Don't give up the fight.
- Bob Marley

Billy wrote:
In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:


However recent polls have shown that our opinion of you is now much lower,
the main issue being the Iraq war and the main cause being GWB.


Hell, David, our opinion of us is lower because of Dubya too.

Yup. The Dixie Chicks had the right idea.

In article
,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

And that comment also resonates with me. At times switching off is all we
can do if we are to try to stay in any way sane.
Which is all that International corporations could hope for. Watch
Ruppert Murdoch news and a sit com and don't worry your pretty little
head about freedom and Blackwater. Show your hands and salute the rank.

**** Bush
--
FB - FFF

Billy

Get up, stand up, stand up for yor rights.
Get up, stand up, Don't give up the fight.
- Bob Marley

In article
,
Billy wrote:

**** Bush
--
FB - FFF

Billy

From what I've heard and read, he'd like that.

;-)
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down." -- Steve Rothstein

In article ,
Omelet wrote:

In article
,
Billy wrote:

**** Bush
--
FB - FFF

Billy

From what I've heard and read, he'd like that.

;-)

I think you are referring to what Osama is doing to him;-)
I doubt he is capable of real human relations, considering what he has
done to so many people, for just money.
--
FB - FFF

Billy

Get up, stand up, stand up for yor rights.
Get up, stand up, Don't give up the fight.
- Bob Marley