"len gardener" wrote in message
as humasn we need to get aways from the broadacre export farmer
mentality, the cost to habitat destruction is huge, and it also
impacts on our weather ie.,. reducing our chances of rain in the
droughts that are part of earths cycle. the b/a farmers here decimate
vast aeas of habitat on somewaht merginal ground, and after around 7
+- years they simply move on and leave the newly created desert behind
there is no requirement as there is with mining to rehabilitate the
area as they further encroach.

Any cites to support that claim of moving on after 7 years? I've not seen
any such suggestion anywhere even though I do know that Queensland has a
reputation for being full of knuckledraggers.

our farmers need to be in our communities where on small holdings
maybe up to 40 acres +- they produce in season staples for those
communities and supplied from farmer to consumer no middle man, the
farmer then gets to share the common wealth of his community, instead
of the way they now do it through a series of middle men who onsell
not so fresh food at prices people can barely afford and not
representative of what the farmers meager offering was.

Unfortunately that thought now lives with the Ark.

The best land near the cities has all gone under revolting McMansions and
people actually choose those things over living in high rises or older
smaller houses.

My Grandfather used to run a market garden in Botany in NSW. Every time I
drive anywhere near Sydney Airport, I think of those market gardens and how
fertile that land would have been given what is growing in the area round
there now. Mind you if it had come down the line of inheritance, my bloody
cousin would also have sold it off to developers as he has done with the
farm that he inherited as the eldest male. So poof, there goes a farm of 5
generations on land that was first selected and cleared by the first
ancestor who came to this country. No sentiment for the fact that it was
the only farm left in the district which was still entire and as selected
and which was the only one still in original hands after 150 years. And
because he likes money. And he really IS a good farmer.

like that adelaide hills thing that land should basically be returned
to habitat is has always been very marginal land (why do people think
the farmers walked away from it after they ahd milked it for waht they
could?), anyone living there should alocate enough land use for their
own personnal food needs, as any commercial venture sooner or later is
driven by the need for more and more turn over.

people can grow enough of the non staples their family needs in a very
small space, we had this type of system back in the late 40's and into
the 50's+, fresh in season food was affordable for all families, and
the food miles was very low so another positive factor, the farmer
casme around a couple or so times a week selling fresh produce, or we
went to the farm. eggs were right there as fresh as the day from the
farm, and fresh unadulterated milk was delivered intoi 1 gallon
stainless billy at our front door not sure may have been each second
day?? homes should be modest enough and land sufficient enough for
families to grow some of their own.

Have you looked over the back fences in your area? What you say is all fine
in theory, but I know from living in the country where there is lots of
land, and even in the drought we still had enough water to grow veggies
round here, how few people actually grow anything edible. Not even a herb
patch!

They'll go and spend 2 bucks buying a plastic packed bunch of miserable
coriander rather than spending a few minutes putting in a few seeds and
doing a bit of watering now and then. A whole seasons worht of coriander
could be had for the 2 bucks they spend, but they'd rather buy it than put
in a small effort.

And if you've taken notice of some of the questions that appear here time
and time again, it is obvious how out of touch with the soil most people
are, and this is supposed to be a gardening group!

No-one with even a modicum of observational skills and who has grubbed about
in soil for more than a few years would use a raft of chemicals on plants or
would fail to understand the importance of insects in having a balance in
the garden. But the basic questions keep coming... "how do I kill....",
"how do I improve...." I often wonder whether people have heard of the
library/google or know the role of the earthworm, or understand the most
simple things about the soil, like microflora etc.

Most people seem to see their garden environment as a place that they treat
like they are doing some form of extension of their home decorating. " A
row of Mop Top Robonia and on the other side some standard roses" type
thinking. That is all quite nice to achieve, but first principles of soil
and it's management and how everything else relies on it seems to be almost
an afterthought.

You and I both know that plants and gardens aren't home decorating, but we
actually grub in the soil. Too many people seem to get wacky ideas from
those ghastly TV/magazines on gardens rather than getting out there and
learning by doing. And there really is no better teacher than time and
experience.

so to me the permaculture sustainable farmer is the one who is moving
closer to his consumers, not lauding themselves growing stuff on
denuded dry habitat land.

Given that people now have to live in that denuded dry habitat land (and
increasinlgy will have to do so in the future) I see no problem with trying
to learn to use it and rehabilitate it.

mollison uses those asian communities in asia where the farmer is a
neighbour and produces all the staples for that neighbourhood, makes a
lot of sense and no good putting it in the too hard basket because if
the oil crisis is as bad as what is indicated then our broadacre
farmers are going to have huge problems getting their produce to
market at an affordable profit making price.

They already DO have that problem. But given that consumers don't bloody
care how many food miles their food has done, just so long as they can eat
what they want, when they want, it is consumers who will get hit time and
time again till they get a bit smarter and start to shop smarter. I cannot
believe that any Australian would buy oranges produced in California, but
the shops are full of them and they sell. I won't buy them but I
certainklys ee many shoppers who will buy them without even checking the
little sticky label on them.

need to think outside the square, the answers will come and the sooner
the better.

No it won't. It will just continue with consumers telling the government to
DO something. They are too lazy to do anything themselves like dig a veggie
patch or even grow a few herbs. I despair of humanity. A good dose of
plague might not be such a bad thing.

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
...

need to think outside the square, the answers will come and the sooner
the better.

No it won't. It will just continue with consumers telling the government to
DO something. They are too lazy to do anything themselves like dig a veggie
patch or even grow a few herbs. I despair of humanity. A good dose of
plague might not be such a bad thing.



Well it would rip right through those mega cities. A nice virulent avian flu
that is human transmitted would do the trick, coming soon to your
neighbourhood? I hope not.

There is absolutely no doubt that in the end climate change, overpopulation,
land degradation, water pollution, peak oil and daytime soap operas WILL be
dealt with. The challenge is to do it without allowing the four horsemen to
cause untold misery to billions along the way.

David

"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message

No it won't. It will just continue with consumers telling the government
to
DO something. They are too lazy to do anything themselves like dig a
veggie
patch or even grow a few herbs. I despair of humanity. A good dose of
plague might not be such a bad thing.



Well it would rip right through those mega cities. A nice virulent avian
flu
that is human transmitted would do the trick, coming soon to your
neighbourhood? I hope not.

So do I (when I'm not feeling particularly negative), but I would be
surprised if we don't get another major pestilence of some sort.

There is absolutely no doubt that in the end climate change,
overpopulation,
land degradation, water pollution, peak oil and daytime soap operas WILL
be
dealt with. The challenge is to do it without allowing the four horsemen
to
cause untold misery to billions along the way.

At least 3 of those horsemen are already raging through the world in Iraq,
Africa and each winter as Flu carts off a huge number of people. I can't
quite see why the fourth wouldn't raise it's ugly head in due time too, but
I do agree with the sentiment that we shouldn't wish for it.

In article
,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message

No it won't. It will just continue with consumers telling the government
to
DO something. They are too lazy to do anything themselves like dig a
veggie
patch or even grow a few herbs. I despair of humanity. A good dose of
plague might not be such a bad thing.



Well it would rip right through those mega cities. A nice virulent avian
flu
that is human transmitted would do the trick, coming soon to your
neighbourhood? I hope not.

So do I (when I'm not feeling particularly negative), but I would be
surprised if we don't get another major pestilence of some sort.

There is absolutely no doubt that in the end climate change,
overpopulation,
land degradation, water pollution, peak oil and daytime soap operas WILL
be
dealt with. The challenge is to do it without allowing the four horsemen
to
cause untold misery to billions along the way.

At least 3 of those horsemen are already raging through the world in Iraq,
Africa and each winter as Flu carts off a huge number of people. I can't
quite see why the fourth wouldn't raise it's ugly head in due time too, but
I do agree with the sentiment that we shouldn't wish for it.

Atta girl.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
...

need to think outside the square, the answers will come and the sooner
the better.

No it won't. It will just continue with consumers telling the government to
DO something. They are too lazy to do anything themselves like dig a veggie
patch or even grow a few herbs. I despair of humanity. A good dose of
plague might not be such a bad thing.



Well it would rip right through those mega cities. A nice virulent avian flu
that is human transmitted would do the trick, coming soon to your
neighbourhood? I hope not.

There is absolutely no doubt that in the end climate change, overpopulation,
land degradation, water pollution, peak oil and daytime soap operas WILL be
dealt with. The challenge is to do it without allowing the four horsemen to
cause untold misery to billions along the way.

David

If it is you and yours' then maybe Farml is right. If it is me and mine,
I'd like a second opinion.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 12:00:51 +1000, "David Hare-Scott"
wrote:


"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message
...

need to think outside the square, the answers will come and the sooner
the better.

No it won't. It will just continue with consumers telling the government
to
DO something. They are too lazy to do anything themselves like dig a
veggie
patch or even grow a few herbs. I despair of humanity. A good dose of
plague might not be such a bad thing.



Well it would rip right through those mega cities. A nice virulent avian
flu
that is human transmitted would do the trick, coming soon to your
neighbourhood? I hope not.

There is absolutely no doubt that in the end climate change,
overpopulation,
land degradation, water pollution, peak oil and daytime soap operas WILL be
dealt with. The challenge is to do it without allowing the four horsemen to
cause untold misery to billions along the way.

David

I fear that is not possible, David. Speaking truth to power has, in my
experience, little effect, and history bears this out, as witnessed by
various prophets, seers, visionaries, and other illuminated and schmart
folks who were ignored by the rich and famous and powerful.

Doesn't have much to do wit schmart people. Sensible people in
industrial societies have fewer children. In the United States of you
know who, each kid costs about a half million $. That is incentive to
anyone who can use their brain.


It is alos interesting that John prophesied so long ago about a world
situation that is taking on an amazing resemblance to what he said.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSw...eature=related

The challenge and the attempt are noble, and required, but I also fear
we are simply ****in' in the wind. Yet try we must, while maintaining
a watchful posture to sidestep what we are able.

I hope I am wrong, but like farml, I too despair of humanity most
times.
Your a Lutheran aren't you Charlie? I listen to Prairie Home Companion
and I'd recognize you anywhere. Just waiting for God's coup de gras?
Well I think we would do just fine if we could get these freakin'
parasites off'en us.(Like Gov. Shrub, he wasn't really elected to
anything else).

Charlie
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 23:10:24 -0700, Billy wrote:


Your a Lutheran aren't you Charlie? I listen to Prairie Home Companion
and I'd recognize you anywhere. Just waiting for God's coup de gras?

Nice try. Please insert another quarter to play again.
What? Not even a smiley face? You are in a mood;-)
However, you are right, as usual. Millions of people around the world
demonstrated against Gov. Shrub's (only office he was ever elected to)
vanity war and they were ignored. Demonstrations never brought the boys
back from Vietnam either. And we have seen that revolutions seem to get
hijacked by hinderbinders that have their own agenda.

Oh, remember that ****ing in the wind, especially on lemon trees, is OK.
It's ****ing into the wind that creates problems;-) (learned this from
Omelet, the smiley faces, not the ****ing, and I can't seem to stop:-)

Well I think we would do just fine if we could get these freakin'
parasites off'en us.(Like Gov. Shrub, he wasn't really elected to
anything else).

You really think so? There are will always be psycopaths and
narcissists in the wings waiting to exert control over the masses.

Twas ever thus.

Charlie
Fortunately, those who follow us will have their own hopes and dreams.
Five thousand years ago, the Egyptians said that the world was going to
ruin in a hand basket and here we are, still going. The rich keep trying
to get richer. If we had a revolution, the new leaders would socialize
the wealth and make themselves chairmen of the board.

But seriously, something has to be done about feeding and housing the
people living one $ 1- $2 a day (1/3 of the planet's pop.) before they
come to our doors and take it.

Hoping the daylight puts you into a better mood;-) dang!
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Wed, 09 Apr 2008 09:43:52 -0700, Billy wrote:

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 23:10:24 -0700, Billy wrote:


Your a Lutheran aren't you Charlie? I listen to Prairie Home Companion
and I'd recognize you anywhere. Just waiting for God's coup de gras?

Nice try. Please insert another quarter to play again.
What? Not even a smiley face? You are in a mood;-)
However, you are right, as usual. Millions of people around the world
demonstrated against Gov. Shrub's (only office he was ever elected to)
vanity war and they were ignored. Demonstrations never brought the boys
back from Vietnam either. And we have seen that revolutions seem to get
hijacked by hinderbinders that have their own agenda.

Heh. Sorry friend. I figgered giving you a nip was safer, and would
be tolerated better than nipping someone else, like my Lovey fer
instance. ;-)

Yeah, bit of a downcycle today. You know the routine. I have found
that contained within the major fluctuations there are some minor ones
as well. Kinda sucks sometimes. Been feeling the need for a couple
days, but have resisted, as at this time I am well aware of where this
would lead. What I need is to be able to go wallow in the soil and get
the back of me neck redded and wear myself out physically. Days on end
of cloudy rainy weather, this time of year, are not good for me. And
they are calling for three more with snow on two of them. But I'll be
alright, just gotta wait it out sometimes.


Oh, remember that ****ing in the wind, especially on lemon trees, is OK.
It's ****ing into the wind that creates problems;-) (learned this from
Omelet, the smiley faces, not the ****ing, and I can't seem to stop:-)

Heh heh, gotta remember which way to face when fertilizing. :-)

Well I think we would do just fine if we could get these freakin'
parasites off'en us.(Like Gov. Shrub, he wasn't really elected to
anything else).

You really think so? There are will always be psycopaths and
narcissists in the wings waiting to exert control over the masses.

Twas ever thus.

Charlie
Fortunately, those who follow us will have their own hopes and dreams.
Five thousand years ago, the Egyptians said that the world was going to
ruin in a hand basket and here we are, still going. The rich keep trying
to get richer. If we had a revolution, the new leaders would socialize
the wealth and make themselves chairmen of the board.

But you must keep in mind, the Egyptian world did go, as the world only
extended to the limits of their knowledge. So it was for other
societys. Unfortunately we have finally become viral and spread
worldwide, so it only stands to reason, since the house of cards is now
a global house of cards, for all intents and purposes of economics and
dependencies, that a collapse will be of epic proportions. Collapses
of yesteryear were of epic proportion to those who collapsed.

And it is intersesting that much of the turmoil, given our global
dependency upon oil, is centered in one of large oil producing areas of
the world,which by coincidence is also home to several of the worlds
warring religions, and which coincidentlay id rumored to be the cradle
of civilization.

But, having said this, I realize that for the most part, our knowledge,
though worldwide and extending a very tiny way into space, is limited
and we make our prophesies and predictions based upon this limited
knowledge. All comes down to we really don't know shit from shinola.

The prophets of old may have been inspired (I do believe that some of
us have seen with other eyes and things didn't appear the same ever
after), but it is now not hard to see and project into the future the
results of our actions. Destruction of resources and warring and food
insufficiency on regional scales have simply gone global and a
contraction is coming. Logistics bears this out.

But, as you say, perhaps the generations that make it, will have dreams
that don't involve control and such and make a better go of it. SO, I
quess our task is to try and ensure that some knowledge and some of the
good ideals and dreams get passed on to the next generations. I'm
doing my damndest to see to this.

As far as predictions of the end and God destroying us, God needn't
lift a finger to end this. We are doing quite well ourselves and I am
confident we shall succeed in our endeavour. We have freewill to do as
we choose.


But seriously, something has to be done about feeding and housing the
people living one $ 1- $2 a day (1/3 of the planet's pop.) before they
come to our doors and take it.

See above.


Hoping the daylight puts you into a better mood;-) dang!

Actually, a little sunshine has helped considerably, though I'm still
feelin' a little frosty. Maybe catch ya' later, maybe not til the
morning, but I'm quite sure though that many of the good folk round
these here parts are hopin' for much later. ;-)

Charlie

I'm tellin' ya Charlie, it's no use coddling 'em. They're just gonna
have ta grow up. If gardeners can't be civil, I guess there isn't any
hope for anyone:-(

Sorry to hear about the rain and snow. To top it all off, there was a
report that La Nina might foreshadow a drought. Interesting times indeed.

Well, I got my flour. Twenty-five pounds of it @ $2.29/5 lb. I may end
up looking like a fool but I'll eat the flour eventually. It's just
basic unbleached white flour. I'd like to have gotten whole wheat flour
but I'm afraid the germ would make it go rancid. Now to get some
hermetically sealed containers and some of that dry ice you was talking
about. Hell. I may have a cylinder of CO2 out in the garage. I'd better
check. Later.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

In article , Charlie wrote:

We recently popped open a bucket of cornmeal on it's tenth anniversary
of entering into storage. Smelled and tasted just fine. Been stored
at a constant 50-60 F.

As far as the CO2 tank, I would think you would need a *very* slooow
release so as to percolate thru the density. Feed your CO2 or nitrogen
or dry ice from the bottom, as you no doubt realize. And fer cryin'
out loud, don't do it in a small space. Ventilation. And if you use
dry ice, I used a chunk about the size of a small fist, busted up, on
the bottom, dumped in the goodies and set the lid on loosely and give
it overnight to do it's thing, and then hammer home the lid without
having disturbed the container. If you want double insurance, toss in
O2 absorbers right before sealing.

I also tossed in the bottom of each container a goodly sized packet of
silica gel fer the heck of it.

Have any questions, ask. I've been thru this thoroughly.

Charlie
What kind of containers do you use? I'm thinking those snap top
containers with the rubber gaskets like the Grolsch beer bottles, 'cept
wider.

Nitrogen is a waste of money. It is (effectively) the same density as
air (which is 70% nitrogen) and just stirs things up. CO2 and argon are
heavier than air and will displace it. Still, it is best to do a long
slow overkill with it.

Where do you get O2 absorbers?

Got the first of the plastic sheets onto the pepper garden today. Our
days have been nice, cool breezy afternoons, nearly freezing at night.
The mosquitos are back:-(
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

In article ,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

They'll go and spend 2 bucks buying a plastic packed bunch of miserable
coriander rather than spending a few minutes putting in a few seeds and
doing a bit of watering now and then. A whole seasons worht of coriander
could be had for the 2 bucks they spend, but they'd rather buy it than put
in a small effort.

Hah. I've tried to grow coriander in Sydney. I'd never seen a plant with
only two leaves bolt before...

They already DO have that problem. But given that consumers don't bloody
care how many food miles their food has done, just so long as they can eat
what they want, when they want, it is consumers who will get hit time and
time again till they get a bit smarter and start to shop smarter. I cannot
believe that any Australian would buy oranges produced in California, but
the shops are full of them and they sell.

There was the time I bought a few lemons -- and I KNEW that lemons were in
season at the time, and assumed they were local -- got home and saw the word
California on the stickers! Aiee!

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

http://chookiesbackyard.blogspot.com/

Chookie wrote:

Hah. I've tried to grow coriander in Sydney. I'd never seen a plant with
only two leaves bolt before...

Lol, I know exactly what you mean.

"Terryc" wrote in message
Chookie wrote:

Hah. I've tried to grow coriander in Sydney. I'd never seen a plant
with only two leaves bolt before...

Lol, I know exactly what you mean.

Plant in your winter. You must both be in a much hotter climate than I am.
I had huge bushes and I planted in spring.

"Chookie" wrote in message
news:ehrebeniuk-E4EAEC.23360110042008@news...

Hah. I've tried to grow coriander in Sydney. I'd never seen a plant with
only two leaves bolt before...


I only grow it during the winter, it's frost hardy.

David