"Bill" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Marie Dodge" wrote:

"Bill" wrote in message
...

Big brevity snip.

Perhaps worth a try.

Bill
.............

http://www.seedsofchange.com/enewsletter/issue_28/issue_28.aspProtect

Your Crops Sanely and Humanely
Hot Pepper Wax
Capsaicin, the ingredient in hot peppers that gives them heat, is a
powerful feeding deterrent and will even kill many insect pests. Hot
pepper wax is a formulation containing capsaicin, which can be sprayed
regularly on plants to prevent damage from aphids, whiteflies, spider
mites, thrips, leafhoppers, scales and many other soft-bodied insects.
It can also be used as a feeding deterrent for rabbits and deer. Waxes
in the mixture help the spray stick to leaves making it last up to two
weeks. Be sure to respray newly emerged leaves during that time period.
And don't worry, the pepper spray washes off easily enough that it
won't
linger after harvest.

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

I hesitate to buy even more products since nothing has worked so far. The
Neem Oil (about $12) was supposed to work and didn't. Rotenone (around
$9)
didn't work... couldn't find pyrethrum. The light summer oil ($10) was
supposed to work. I have about 8 things here (over $90 w/chemicals) and
none made more than a small difference in the whitefly and mite
populations.
The pests must be gaining immunity to the organic pesticides as they have


the chemicals. My gardens are large and it's now starting to run into a
lot
of money - and there's little improvement.

http://www.johnnyseeds.com/catalog/p...earch&search=p
yrethrum&item=637

http://www.biconet.com/botanicals/rps.html

Sounds like you have a challenge. Best practice may be to go fallow.

As I mentioned somewhere here,.. this garden laid fallow 2 years due to an
accident I had. Several surgeries on my knee and physical rehab kept me out
of the garden. I'm surrounded by woodland and fields... and both are full
of insects and bugs. Virus and bacterial diseases have not been a problem.
I never saw whitefly here before, or spider-mites. The biggest pests were a
few Japanese beetles and the ubiquitous SVB. Aphids one year when we lived
in town.

I believe the spidermites came in on a gift palm I recieved last winter. It
was incurable so I trashed it this spring. Most likely not before a few
mites fell of it.......... The whitefly probably came in on one of
the seedlings I bought last spring.

Thanks for the URLs.


Best

Bill

Ps Rotenone has human health issues. Big ones!

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

Marie Dodge said:

I believe the spidermites came in on a gift palm I recieved last winter. It
was incurable so I trashed it this spring. Most likely not before a few
mites fell of it.......... The whitefly probably came in on one of
the seedlings I bought last spring.

There's an old remedy for spider mites that might be worth a try, and
might not be too expensive. It combines wheat flour, buttermilk,
and water. The Organic Method Primer recommends it, and various
proportions are mentioned. Here's a recipe from a website:

1/8 cup buttermilk
1 cup wheat flour
1-1/4 gallons of water

http://www.diynetwork.com/diy/gt_org...693956,00.html


--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

After enlightenment, the laundry.

"Pat Kiewicz" wrote in message
...
Marie Dodge said:

I believe the spidermites came in on a gift palm I recieved last winter.
It
was incurable so I trashed it this spring. Most likely not before a few
mites fell of it.......... The whitefly probably came in on one
of
the seedlings I bought last spring.

There's an old remedy for spider mites that might be worth a try, and
might not be too expensive. It combines wheat flour, buttermilk,
and water. The Organic Method Primer recommends it, and various
proportions are mentioned. Here's a recipe from a website:

1/8 cup buttermilk
1 cup wheat flour
1-1/4 gallons of water

http://www.diynetwork.com/diy/gt_org...693956,00.html

Have you found any of these concoctions to work for you? So far the only
thing I've seen make any difference this past week is called Organocide. I
got it at Lowe's. It's made with fish oil and smells like Cod Liver Oil. We
went to the Extension Office today with samples from our garden. The agent
didn't find signs of anything but whitefly and 2-spot spider mites. He said
they were the worst infested leaves he ever saw. We have to stop making our
own compost because there is no real way to kill them off in compost. I
could spread the problem all over the property with compost from the
gardens. He told us of a place we can get all the free stuff to compost we
can haul away. We're going to burn the entire pile we now have and get the
shredded stuff he told us about.



--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

After enlightenment, the laundry.

Marie Dodge said:



"Pat Kiewicz" wrote in message
...

There's an old remedy for spider mites that might be worth a try, and
might not be too expensive. It combines wheat flour, buttermilk,
and water. The Organic Method Primer recommends it, and various
proportions are mentioned. Here's a recipe from a website:

1/8 cup buttermilk
1 cup wheat flour
1-1/4 gallons of water

http://www.diynetwork.com/diy/gt_org...693956,00.html

Have you found any of these concoctions to work for you?

This one, no, but I have had people say it did work for them. And it even
turns up on some extension service websites:
http://everest.ento.vt.edu/~idlab/ve...idermites.html

And the following article references a study which found that "(f)our applications
have been shown to kill 95 % of red spider mite infestation."
http://www.infonet-biovision.org/def...anicPesticides

But having seed your pictures (after my post) it looks like your infestation is
so bad that burning everything would be the best thing at this point. I'd maybe
even consider running a flame over every inch of garden.

Then hit every dormant shrub or tree in the vicinity of the garden with some
dormant sprays of oil before they break bud next spring.

Then maybe hit the area with lime sulfur after bud break:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/6oozzc
= http://www.infrc.jp/english/KNF_Data...a/C6-6-238.pdf

--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

After enlightenment, the laundry.

"Pat Kiewicz" wrote in message
...
Marie Dodge said:



"Pat Kiewicz" wrote in message
...

There's an old remedy for spider mites that might be worth a try, and
might not be too expensive. It combines wheat flour, buttermilk,
and water. The Organic Method Primer recommends it, and various
proportions are mentioned. Here's a recipe from a website:

1/8 cup buttermilk
1 cup wheat flour
1-1/4 gallons of water

http://www.diynetwork.com/diy/gt_org...693956,00.html

Have you found any of these concoctions to work for you?

This one, no, but I have had people say it did work for them. And it even
turns up on some extension service websites:
http://everest.ento.vt.edu/~idlab/ve...idermites.html

OK. I'm sure it did. Unfortunately none of the organic products or
concoctions have ever worked for us. Many people claim Neem Oil worked for
them and it did nothing to even slow them down in my garden. I threw away
another $10, $12 for the Neem Oil. The light oil "Organicide" did damage
the plants as I thought it might. The mites continue on but the white fly
population was cut by maybe 25%. Hardly worth the expense. I would like to
know what organic or inorganic actually works on mites other than Kelthane
which I can't get anymore. Kelthane was the only product I ever had that
killed the mites in two sprayings.


And the following article references a study which found that "(f)our
applications
have been shown to kill 95 % of red spider mite infestation."
http://www.infonet-biovision.org/def...anicPesticides

Actually it says: "Flour preparations Flour mixed in water *is said to be*
very effective against aphids and spider mites.." I'm curious, said by who?
Where were the experiments done and by who? I couldn't find any further
information.


But having seed your pictures (after my post) it looks like your
infestation is
so bad that burning everything would be the best thing at this point. I'd
maybe
even consider running a flame over every inch of garden.

No one I know has ever seen such an infestation of whitefly and spider mite,
including the extension agent. The heat, low humidity and lack of rain is
certainly contributing to this infestation. In fact it's spreading across
the grass, other wild plants and the trees on the property around us. It's
spread to the flower beds. At this point trying to control the mite and
w/flies is a waste of time.


Then hit every dormant shrub or tree in the vicinity of the garden with
some
dormant sprays of oil before they break bud next spring.
Then maybe hit the area with lime sulfur after bud break:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/6oozzc
=
http://www.infrc.jp/english/KNF_Data...a/C6-6-238.pdf


We live out in the country so that's impossible. We're surrounded by
woodland and underbrush, weeds and wildflowers. It would take thousands of
dollars and aerial spraying would be required. But thanks for the info.....

--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

After enlightenment, the laundry.

Marie Dodge said:

"Pat Kiewicz" wrote in message
...
Marie Dodge said:

In reference to wheat flour/buttermilk mite remedy:
Have you found any of these concoctions to work for you?

This one, no, but I have had people say it did work for them.

Actually, I should have said "no, I've never used it myself." I rarely
use any pesticides these day, and even those are mainly limited to soap
and pyrethrin.

Many people claim Neem Oil worked for
them and it did nothing to even slow them down in my garden.

Neem oil has some very few legitimate uses but is touted as a panacea.
And there is no such thing as a panacea. I would have warned you off
that...

I would like to
know what organic or inorganic actually works on mites other than
Kelthane
which I can't get anymore. Kelthane was the only product I ever had that
killed the mites in two sprayings.

Lime sulfur, maybe, as per info at: http://preview.tinyurl.com/6oozzc

(Lime sulfur is a long-standing remedy for a long list of mites, including
mange mites and chiggers as well as horticultural pests.)

BUT! I wouldn't expect any remedy (even Kelthane, if you could get it) to
help at this point. But dusts (flour or mineral) are legitimate remedies
for insects and mite pests. Call them 'particle films' and they even sound
....exciting:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/6j3m22

Which takes you to:
http://www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles...ook%20Chapter%
20Particle%20Film%20Technolgy.pdf

That document contains the following line:

"Although not mineral-based, Ghate and Marshall (1962) suppressed eggs
and mobile forms of European red mite and two-spotted spider mites with a
combination of buttermilk and wheat flour."

The kaolin-based product, Surround (R), which is mention in the
document cited above, is available mail-order to home gardeners from
various places (if anyone is interested).


Then hit every dormant shrub or tree in the vicinity of the garden with
some
dormant sprays of oil before they break bud next spring.
Then maybe hit the area with lime sulfur after bud break:

We live out in the country so that's impossible. We're surrounded by
woodland and underbrush, weeds and wildflowers. It would take
thousands of
dollars and aerial spraying would be required. But thanks for the info.....

Hell, even people who *don't* live out in the country are surrounded by
other peoples yards with plenty of trees, bushes, weeds and flowers
which are *completely* beyond their control, let alone being beyond their
*budget*! Why did you assume I meant such a hugely extensive action?

Perhaps I should have thrown in the word "immediate" before "vicinity."
As in, if you have a row of raspberries, or a hedge row, or a couple
of peach trees next to the garden, spray *them* (they almost certainly
need the protection, after what's happened this year).

Next year, you will need to invest in prevention, which is always less
expensive and more effective than trying to cure. (Prevention is
less expensive, though not FREE.)

Right now you are hit hard with "throwing good money after bad"
regret/anger, and the fact that the most reasonable action at this point is
to destroy everything you planted for this year, which hurts.

HURTS BIGTIME!

--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

After enlightenment, the laundry.

In article ,
Pat Kiewicz wrote:

But thanks for the info.....

I'll second that. Very informative post. Thank you Pat.
--

Billy
Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1009916.html

"Pat Kiewicz" wrote in message
...
Marie Dodge said:

"Pat Kiewicz" wrote in message
...
Marie Dodge said:

In reference to wheat flour/buttermilk mite remedy:
Have you found any of these concoctions to work for you?

This one, no, but I have had people say it did work for them.

Actually, I should have said "no, I've never used it myself." I rarely
use any pesticides these day, and even those are mainly limited to soap
and pyrethrin.

I know what you mean. I seldom had bug/insect problems in my gardens. This
is the first wf and sm I've ever seen here. Usually just a few tomato horn
worms, a squash bug or two and a couple Japanese beetles... they've never
been a problem. Only SBV are here every year.


Many people claim Neem Oil worked for
them and it did nothing to even slow them down in my garden.

Neem oil has some very few legitimate uses but is touted as a panacea.
And there is no such thing as a panacea. I would have warned you off
that...

I have no way to know who tried the products they recommend and who just
makes suggestions because someone told them it worked for their brother's
sister-in-law's tenant's daughter.... you know what I mean.


I would like to
know what organic or inorganic actually works on mites other than
Kelthane
which I can't get anymore. Kelthane was the only product I ever had that
killed the mites in two sprayings.

Lime sulfur, maybe, as per info at: http://preview.tinyurl.com/6oozzc
(Lime sulfur is a long-standing remedy for a long list of mites, including
mange mites and chiggers as well as horticultural pests.)

After looking at the one garden today I don't think it would matter anymore.
The season ends here in Mid October. There's no time left to get a pepper
crop. The damage to the plants is too severe. Too many weeks wasted trying
things people recommended that didn't work, or barely worked. The smelly
Organicide is slowing working, but it's too late now. It will take to long.


BUT! I wouldn't expect any remedy (even Kelthane, if you could get it) to
help at this point. But dusts (flour or mineral) are legitimate remedies
for insects and mite pests. Call them 'particle films' and they even
sound
...exciting:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/6j3m22

I would love to find an organic answer. Very interesting read. Thanks. :^)


Which takes you to:
http://www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles...ook%20Chapter%
20Particle%20Film%20Technolgy.pdf

That document contains the following line:

"Although not mineral-based, Ghate and Marshall (1962) suppressed eggs
and mobile forms of European red mite and two-spotted spider mites with a
combination of buttermilk and wheat flour."

The kaolin-based product, Surround (R), which is mention in the
document cited above, is available mail-order to home gardeners from
various places (if anyone is interested).

I'll look for it locally. Shipping today often costs more than or the same
as the product itself. And at this point these plants are hardly worth
pouring more money on.

We live out in the country so that's impossible. We're surrounded by
woodland and underbrush, weeds and wildflowers. It would take
thousands of
dollars and aerial spraying would be required. But thanks for the
info.....

Hell, even people who *don't* live out in the country are surrounded by
other peoples yards with plenty of trees, bushes, weeds and flowers
which are *completely* beyond their control, let alone being beyond their
*budget*! Why did you assume I meant such a hugely extensive action?

Sorry, must have misunderstood you.


Perhaps I should have thrown in the word "immediate" before "vicinity."
As in, if you have a row of raspberries, or a hedge row, or a couple
of peach trees next to the garden, spray *them* (they almost certainly
need the protection, after what's happened this year).

Oh... OK. Gotcha. :^)


Next year, you will need to invest in prevention, which is always less
expensive and more effective than trying to cure. (Prevention is
less expensive, though not FREE.)
Right now you are hit hard with "throwing good money after bad"
regret/anger, and the fact that the most reasonable action at this point
is
to destroy everything you planted for this year, which hurts.

HURTS BIGTIME!

Yep, it's got one week for us to see serious improvement. If none, then
everything from that garden is being burned, cremated. The ashes will be
spread out by the road. We're not using anything from the gardens for
compost this year. We found a place to get loads of mulch to compost from
the city. It's all shredded tree limbs, bark and leaves. Next year I'll
start spraying the plants the day I set them out.


--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

After enlightenment, the laundry.

On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 20:51:19 -0500, "Marie Dodge"
wrote:


No one I know has ever seen such an infestation of whitefly and spider mite,
including the extension agent.

Do they make dark shadows on your screens at night? Do you have
to wear a bandana when you're working in the garden to avoid
ingesting bunches of whiteflies with each breath? Do they make
pretty abstract patterns on the wall of the house where the
morning sun first hits? Cause, that's what it was like when I
moved into this house in June of 2001.

Something was clearly out of whack with the food chain for such
an explosion of the white fly population. And...spit! thrips,
they were just not as obvious at first.

So, I started releasing lacewings. The yard was horribly
overgrown, so I also cut back or completely down shrubs and weedy
trees that looked like they were especially overwhelmed by the
whiteflies. I released some ladybugs, too, and the next spring
released more lacewings and ladybugs. I talked to my neighbors
with varying success about not using broad spectrum pesticides,
and made sure they all knew what ladybug and lacewing larva
looked like. It took 2 years (and 3 summers) but things finally
swung back into better balance. I still get a whitefly outbreak
every summer, but I put yellow sticky traps out around the garden
for a little extra protection, and let nature take its course
elsewhere. Of course, I get all tingly and feel like an Uber
Garden Geek when I find ladybug eggs or lacewing larva on a plant
that has whitefly. I've been down right orgasmic over the
proliferation of squirrel treefrogs this year, too.

The heat, low humidity and lack of rain is
certainly contributing to this infestation. In fact it's spreading across
the grass, other wild plants and the trees on the property around us. It's
spread to the flower beds. At this point trying to control the mite and
w/flies is a waste of time.

Yeah, we were in our fifth year of drought when I moved out here.
I'm sure that contributed to the pest explosion.


Penelope

--
You have proven yourself to be the most malicious,
classless person that I've encountered in years.
- "pointed"

"Penelope Periwinkle" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 20:51:19 -0500, "Marie Dodge"
wrote:


No one I know has ever seen such an infestation of whitefly and spider
mite,
including the extension agent.

Do they make dark shadows on your screens at night? Do you have
to wear a bandana when you're working in the garden to avoid
ingesting bunches of whiteflies with each breath?

Yes. I must use a bandanna not to inhale them. I haven't looked at the
window screens at night.

Do they make
pretty abstract patterns on the wall of the house where the
morning sun first hits? Cause, that's what it was like when I
moved into this house in June of 2001.

The type we have do not leave the plants.

Something was clearly out of whack with the food chain for such
an explosion of the white fly population. And...spit! thrips,
they were just not as obvious at first.

So, I started releasing lacewings. The yard was horribly
overgrown, so I also cut back or completely down shrubs and weedy
trees that looked like they were especially overwhelmed by the
whiteflies. I released some ladybugs, too, and the next spring
released more lacewings and ladybugs.

As I mentioned in another post. My ex-husband released these same
"beneficials" plus a third (I can't recall the 3rd one) in the old garden
where I used to live. In 48 hours we couldn't find one left! Not one, but
the pests were still there. And even back then they were expensive. How did
you keep them from flying away?

I talked to my neighbors
with varying success about not using broad spectrum pesticides,
and made sure they all knew what ladybug and lacewing larva
looked like. It took 2 years (and 3 summers) but things finally
swung back into better balance. I still get a whitefly outbreak
every summer, but I put yellow sticky traps out around the garden
for a little extra protection, and let nature take its course
elsewhere. Of course, I get all tingly and feel like an Uber
Garden Geek when I find ladybug eggs or lacewing larva on a plant
that has whitefly. I've been down right orgasmic over the
proliferation of squirrel treefrogs this year, too.

I'd like to know how you kept them in your garden. I know my ex-husband was
bitterly disappointed they were all gone in 2 or maybe 3 days leaving him
with a nice charge on his chargecard and the pests still there to deal with.
I'm not sure what all was infesting that garden but do remember the cucumber
beetles, root worms on the root crops, corn ear worms, SVBs, tomato horn
worms and something that about wiped out the asparagus as he waited for the
beneficials to arrive. He bought some pesticide from a local Co-op and
sprayed the garden several times.... but that was apparently before all
these insects and bugs developed immunity because it took care of the
problem quickly. I remember the corn, rootcrops and squash being a total
loss. He sprayed them too late but we did save the other crops.

The heat, low humidity and lack of rain is
certainly contributing to this infestation. In fact it's spreading across
the grass, other wild plants and the trees on the property around us. It's
spread to the flower beds. At this point trying to control the mite and
w/flies is a waste of time.

Yeah, we were in our fifth year of drought when I moved out here.
I'm sure that contributed to the pest explosion.

Something is, that's for sure. Oddly enough the two older gardens only have
whitefly and are still producing. The garden with the spider-mite and WF is
a total loss - and that's the new garden that laid fallow two years due to
my accident. It's never been sprayed with anything.



Penelope

--
You have proven yourself to be the most malicious,
classless person that I've encountered in years.
- "pointed"

"Marie Dodge" writes:
Actually it says: "Flour preparations Flour mixed in water *is said to be*
very effective against aphids and spider mites.." I'm curious, said by who?

You might be interested in an aphid spray I use. 1 part denatured alcohol +
3 parts water. Spray onto the pests. They cease moving immediately, and more
importantly, never move again. I have not found it to harm any plants, but
there is nothing stopping you hosing it off 10 mins after applying if you
wish, as by then it has done its job. As always, it would be wise to do a
test spraying on just one plant initially, and then on the others 2 or 3
days later. I've found it ideal for killing aphids clustered on the tender
new tips of plants such as roses and lemons.

Denatured alcohol is called "methylated spirits" here in Australia. It's
just ethyl alcohol with a trace amount of an evil-tasting stuff to stop
people drinking it and evading the alcohol tax. (You could use cheap vodka
in place of the alcohol I suppose!!)

You could try it on spider mite. I have used it on small grubs, but doubt
that it would kill whitefly.

We live out in the country so that's impossible. We're surrounded by
woodland and underbrush, weeds and wildflowers. It would take thousands of
dollars and aerial spraying would be required. But thanks for the info.....

I read that aphids can over-winter on thistles. Skeptical, next winter I
took a closer look. They sure do: the leaves were thick with aphids. Then
I found one milk thistle with no aphids on its leaves. I pulled it up and
found its roots clad in an overcoat with aphids! So one measure you could
take is to make sure there are no milk thistles in fallow parts of your
garden.
--
John Savage (my news address is not valid for email)

"John Savage" wrote in message
...
"Marie Dodge" writes:
Actually it says: "Flour preparations Flour mixed in water *is said to be*
very effective against aphids and spider mites.." I'm curious, said by
who?

You might be interested in an aphid spray I use. 1 part denatured alcohol
+
3 parts water. Spray onto the pests. They cease moving immediately, and
more
importantly, never move again. I have not found it to harm any plants,
but
there is nothing stopping you hosing it off 10 mins after applying if you
wish, as by then it has done its job. As always, it would be wise to do a
test spraying on just one plant initially, and then on the others 2 or 3
days later. I've found it ideal for killing aphids clustered on the tender
new tips of plants such as roses and lemons.

Thanks for the info John. Aphids haven't been a problem here at all but
will try it if some appear. I haven't seen an aphid in ages. The 2-spotted
spider mite and common Whitefly appear to be immune to everything including
oils (summer and Neem). Today I noticed my prize Gardenia on the back porch
has MEALY BUGS!!!!!!!! :*(


Denatured alcohol is called "methylated spirits" here in Australia. It's
just ethyl alcohol with a trace amount of an evil-tasting stuff to stop
people drinking it and evading the alcohol tax. (You could use cheap vodka
in place of the alcohol I suppose!!)

You could try it on spider mite. I have used it on small grubs, but doubt
that it would kill whitefly.

We live out in the country so that's impossible. We're surrounded by
woodland and underbrush, weeds and wildflowers. It would take thousands
of
dollars and aerial spraying would be required. But thanks for the
info.....

I read that aphids can over-winter on thistles. Skeptical, next winter I
took a closer look. They sure do: the leaves were thick with aphids. Then
I found one milk thistle with no aphids on its leaves. I pulled it up and
found its roots clad in an overcoat with aphids! So one measure you could
take is to make sure there are no milk thistles in fallow parts of your
garden.
--
John Savage (my news address is not valid for email)