songbird wrote:
we have wandered far afield,
but i'm going to return and ask
about the two calorie output vs
one Billy pulled out of ?


I would be interested to see that too.

and the other question for
Billy is how does organic
gardening sequester carbon
dioxide?

I am guessing that in the long term organic horticulture has only a mild
effect in storage. If you have 10% organic material in your soil you are
sequestering more carbon than if you have 1% but it isn't going to be a big
carbon sink. Assuming that you can still feed the numbers required. OTOH
if you don't use all the chemferts that require energy to manufacture then
you are saving some at that end.

improving soil is
good, mixing organic stuff in
and making all the various
critters happy is great, but
that is nutrient cycling not
carbon sequestration... we
need carbon sequestration
at this point. can we get
that via organic gardening
methods at present?


This can only be answered properly by careful numeric modelling but I don't
have a reference for it. My guess is that it won't be so valuable. However
if combined with other methods such as forest re-planting and organic
pasture management we might make some progress. Regarding the latter, I
have seen studies that say that pastures (as opposed to crops) can store
significant carbon. To do this you need to grass-feed your animals instead
of ripping out the pastures to grow corn to feed them in lots.

i really need to study
charcoal production methods...
perhaps a solar oven could
do it... gotta go look now.



I think that this would be possible but the big question is what would be
the energy cost and financial cost to do it.

Regardless of sequestration there is no mid-term solution unless we stop
burning fossil fuel at such a rate. We must decide to do this as a species,
the limits of availability will make the decision for us in respect of oil
quite soon but there is enough coal left to send earth well into the
greenhouse if we keep burning it at an increasing rate. And only one
long-term solution: stop population growth.

David

In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

songbird wrote:
we have wandered far afield,

Only to those not paying attention. My point about organic, before you
launched into your unsupported attack on "organic", was the when you get
organic, you get more nutrients into your diet. If the enhanced
nutrition of "organic" kept you from getting sick, then that would be a
good deal wouldn't it? There are an increasing number of studies showing
enhanced levels of vitamins in organic produce. More over vitamins have
only been recognized for about 100 years. Now there appears to be
another class of compounds, flavonols
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavonoid, which are important to human
health. We wondered from your field to point out that part of the
benefit of growing organic was to eat healthier foods. Cheap food that
lets you get sick isn't such a good deal. Or as they say about
Americans, we are over fed and under nourished.
but i'm going to return and ask
about the two calorie output vs
one Billy pulled out of ?
If you don't have my 9:46 AM post from today, I'll happily repost it for
you.



I would be interested to see that too.

and the other question for
Billy is how does organic
gardening sequester carbon
dioxide?
Also in the 9:46 AM post

I am guessing that in the long term organic horticulture has only a mild
effect in storage. If you have 10% organic material in your soil you are
sequestering more carbon than if you have 1% but it isn't going to be a big
carbon sink. Assuming that you can still feed the numbers required. OTOH
if you don't use all the chemferts that require energy to manufacture then
you are saving some at that end.

Long story short, charcoal can last 50,000 years, and it can have the
added benefit of improving the fertility of the soil.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/2...al_crime_scene

On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 18:26:01 -0700, against all advice, something
compelled Billy , to say:

There are an increasing number of studies showing
enhanced levels of vitamins in organic produce.



Cite three.

Thank you.

In article ,
Steve Daniels wrote:

On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 18:26:01 -0700, against all advice, something
compelled Billy , to say:

There are an increasing number of studies showing
enhanced levels of vitamins in organic produce.



Cite three.

Thank you.

http://www.rawfoodexplained.com/the-...e-against-comm
ercially-grown-foods.html



http://www.plantmanagementnetwork.org/pub/cm/symposium/organics/delate/

http://www.rawfoodlife.com/Articles_...commercial_foo
d/organic_vs_commercial_food.htm

http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/107555301750164244

http://www.twnside.org.sg/title2/susagri/susagri018.htm

http://www.ota.com/organic/benefits/nutrition.html

http://www.organixentral.co.uk/rutgers.html
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/2...al_crime_scene

In article , says...

Assuming that you can still feed the numbers required. OTOH
if you don't use all the chemferts that require energy to manufacture then
you are saving some at that end.

You probably already know that nitrogen production uses natural gas as
its feedstock...

phorbin wrote:
In article , says...

Assuming that you can still feed the numbers required. OTOH
if you don't use all the chemferts that require energy to
manufacture then you are saving some at that end.

You probably already know that nitrogen production uses natural gas as
its feedstock...

Yes. The Haber process produces greenhouse gases as a by-product and it is
a factor in the overall energy economy as that natural gas could be used
(for example) to generate electric power or to run cars. The process can
also use other hydrocarbons or none at all.

The haber process can be run from hydrogen produced electrolytically which
doesn't generate GHG if you get your electricity from renewable sources but
that would increase the price of fertiliser at current renewable electricity
prices.

David