Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
....
we have wandered far afield,
but i'm going to return and ask
about the two calorie output vs
one Billy pulled out of ?


This is called "Modeling Behavior".

on the catwalk...
shake it Billy.


The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals by Michael
Pollan
p.45 - 46
http://www.amazon.com/Omnivores-Dile...ls/dp/01430385
83/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815576&sr=1-1

The reason Greene County is no longer green for half the year is
because
the farmer who can buy synthetic fertility no longer needs cover crops
to capture a whole year's worth of sunlight he has plugged himself
into
a new source of energy. When you add together the natural gas in the
fertilizer to the fossil fuels it takes to make the pesticides, drive
the tractors, and harvest, dry, and transport the corn, you find that
every bushel of industrial corn requires the equivalent of between a
quarter and a third of a gallon of oil to grow it gallons of oil
per acre of corn. (Some estimates are much higher.) Put another way,
it takes more than a calorie of fossil fuel energy to
produce a calorie of food; before the advent of chemical fertilizer
the
Naylor farm produced more than two calories of food energy for every
calorie of energy invested.

you need to mark the citations quotes
differently from your own words.

i cannot tell if the following remark
is yours or the "authority" you are citing...


From the standpoint of industrial efficiency, it's too bad we can't
simply drink the petroleum directly.

not an EPA approved
use of that material! i am
shocked at you Billywonkanobi. ( )


and the other question for
Billy is how does organic
gardening sequester carbon
dioxide? improving soil is
good, mixing organic stuff in
and making all the various
critters happy is great, but
that is nutrient cycling not
carbon sequestration... we
need carbon sequestration
at this point. can we get
that via organic gardening
methods at present?

Only in terms of bio-mass, unless you include "terra preta", and its
charcoal.

*ding ding!*


Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web
Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis
Ch.1, second paragraph.
http://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Microb.../dp/0881927775
/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815176&sr= 1-1

In addition to all the living organisms you can see in garden soils
(for
example, there are up to 50 earthworms in a square foot [0.09 square
meters] of good soil), there is a whole world of soil organisms that
you
cannot see unless you use sophisticated and expensive optics. Only
then
do the tiny, microscopic organisms nematodes A mere teaspoon of
good garden soil, as measured by microbial geneticists, contains a
billion invisible bacteria, several yards of
equally invisible fungal hyphae, several thousand protozoa, and a few
dozen nematodes.

do you know that there are
places where earth worms are
not native and they are considered
alien invasive species?

have you studied any forest
floor ecologies?


Gaia's Garden, Second Edition: A Guide To Home-Scale Permaculture
(Paperback)
by Toby Hemenway
p.78
http://www.amazon.com/Gaias-Garden-S...ulture/dp/1603
580298/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271266976&sr=1-1

Like most living things, leaves are made primarily of
carbon-containing
compounds: sugars, proteins, starches, and many other organic
molecules.
....


1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus : Charles C.
Mann
http://www.amazon.com/1491-Revelatio...mbus/dp/140003
2059/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269536235&sr=1-1

....
Trees store vast amounts of carbon in their trunks,
branches, and leaves. When they die or people cut them down, the
carbon
is usually released into the atmosphere, driving global warming.
Experiments by Makoto Ogawa of the Kansai Environmental Engineering
Center, near Kyoto, Japan, demonstrated that charcoal retains its
carbon
in the soil for up to fifty thousand years.

ah yes, that's a helpful
idea and i suspect people
will be amending away.
since it is a lighter
material i may include
some in my tulip bed
topping soil mix.


i really need to study
charcoal production methods...
perhaps a solar oven could
do it... gotta go look now.

still gotta do it. *sigh*
i'm sensitive to smoke though
that it would have to be a
pretty well engineered device.

*mad scientist chuckle*


songbird

In article ,
"songbird" wrote:

Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
...
we have wandered far afield,
but i'm going to return and ask
about the two calorie output vs
one Billy pulled out of ?


This is called "Modeling Behavior".

on the catwalk...
shake it Billy.

Well, that lowered the level.


The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals by Michael
Pollan
p.45 - 46
http://www.amazon.com/Omnivores-Dile...ls/dp/01430385
83/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815576&sr=1-1

The reason Greene County is no longer green for half the year is
because
the farmer who can buy synthetic fertility no longer needs cover crops
to capture a whole year's worth of sunlight he has plugged himself
into
a new source of energy. When you add together the natural gas in the
fertilizer to the fossil fuels it takes to make the pesticides, drive
the tractors, and harvest, dry, and transport the corn, you find that
every bushel of industrial corn requires the equivalent of between a
quarter and a third of a gallon of oil to grow it gallons of oil
per acre of corn. (Some estimates are much higher.) Put another way,
it takes more than a calorie of fossil fuel energy to
produce a calorie of food; before the advent of chemical fertilizer
the
Naylor farm produced more than two calories of food energy for every
calorie of energy invested.

you need to mark the citations quotes
differently from your own words.

i cannot tell if the following remark
is yours or the "authority" you are citing...

It's one paragraph, what do you think?


From the standpoint of industrial efficiency, it's too bad we can't
simply drink the petroleum directly.

not an EPA approved
use of that material! i am
shocked at you Billywonkanobi. ( )


and the other question for
Billy is how does organic
gardening sequester carbon
dioxide? improving soil is
good, mixing organic stuff in
and making all the various
critters happy is great, but
that is nutrient cycling not
carbon sequestration... we
need carbon sequestration
at this point. can we get
that via organic gardening
methods at present?

Only in terms of bio-mass, unless you include "terra preta", and its
charcoal.

*ding ding!*


Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web
Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis
Ch.1, second paragraph.
http://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Microb.../dp/0881927775
/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815176&sr= 1-1

In addition to all the living organisms you can see in garden soils
(for
example, there are up to 50 earthworms in a square foot [0.09 square
meters] of good soil), there is a whole world of soil organisms that
you
cannot see unless you use sophisticated and expensive optics. Only
then
do the tiny, microscopic organisms nematodes A mere teaspoon of
good garden soil, as measured by microbial geneticists, contains a
billion invisible bacteria, several yards of
equally invisible fungal hyphae, several thousand protozoa, and a few
dozen nematodes.

do you know that there are
places where earth worms are
not native and they are considered
alien invasive species?

have you studied any forest
floor ecologies?

Are you trying to say something? It's really not that hard.

Gaia's Garden, Second Edition: A Guide To Home-Scale Permaculture
(Paperback)
by Toby Hemenway
p.78
http://www.amazon.com/Gaias-Garden-S...ulture/dp/1603
580298/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271266976&sr=1-1

Like most living things, leaves are made primarily of
carbon-containing
compounds: sugars, proteins, starches, and many other organic
molecules.
...


1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus : Charles C.
Mann
http://www.amazon.com/1491-Revelatio...mbus/dp/140003
2059/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269536235&sr=1-1

...
Trees store vast amounts of carbon in their trunks,
branches, and leaves. When they die or people cut them down, the
carbon
is usually released into the atmosphere, driving global warming.
Experiments by Makoto Ogawa of the Kansai Environmental Engineering
Center, near Kyoto, Japan, demonstrated that charcoal retains its
carbon
in the soil for up to fifty thousand years.

ah yes, that's a helpful
idea and i suspect people
will be amending away.
since it is a lighter
material i may include
some in my tulip bed
topping soil mix.


i really need to study
charcoal production methods...
perhaps a solar oven could
do it... gotta go look now.

still gotta do it. *sigh*
i'm sensitive to smoke though
that it would have to be a
pretty well engineered device.

*mad scientist chuckle*


songbird
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/2...al_crime_scene

Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
...
we have wandered far afield,
but i'm going to return and ask
about the two calorie output vs
one Billy pulled out of ?


This is called "Modeling Behavior".

on the catwalk...
shake it Billy.

Well, that lowered the level.

oh c'mon, lighten up a little Billy,
i laughed when you got out the
clover tiara and really enjoyed
the grass skirt shimmy.


The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals by Michael
Pollan
p.45 - 46
http://www.amazon.com/Omnivores-Dile...ls/dp/01430385
83/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815576&sr=1-1

The reason Greene County is no longer green for half the year is
because
the farmer who can buy synthetic fertility no longer needs cover
crops to capture a whole year's worth of sunlight he has plugged
himself into
a new source of energy. When you add together the natural gas in the
fertilizer to the fossil fuels it takes to make the pesticides,
drive the tractors, and harvest, dry, and transport the corn, you
find that every bushel of industrial corn requires the equivalent
of between a quarter and a third of a gallon of oil to grow it
gallons of oil per acre of corn. (Some estimates are much higher.)
Put another way, it takes more than a calorie of fossil fuel energy
to
produce a calorie of food; before the advent of chemical fertilizer
the
Naylor farm produced more than two calories of food energy for every
calorie of energy invested.

you need to mark the citations quotes
differently from your own words.

i cannot tell if the following remark
is yours or the "authority" you are citing...

It's one paragraph, what do you think?

i said i could not tell... i think " is a good
symbol to use around texts from others...


....
Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web
Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis
Ch.1, second paragraph.
http://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Microb.../dp/0881927775
/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815176&sr= 1-1

In addition to all the living organisms you can see in garden soils
(for
example, there are up to 50 earthworms in a square foot [0.09 square
meters] of good soil), there is a whole world of soil organisms that
you
cannot see unless you use sophisticated and expensive optics. Only
then
do the tiny, microscopic organisms nematodes A mere teaspoon of
good garden soil, as measured by microbial geneticists, contains a
billion invisible bacteria, several yards of
equally invisible fungal hyphae, several thousand protozoa, and a
few dozen nematodes.

do you know that there are
places where earth worms are
not native and they are considered
alien invasive species?

have you studied any forest
floor ecologies?

Are you trying to say something? It's really not that hard.

the words "good soil" were used
in reference to "50 worms per sq ft".
not all good soil contains worms.
in some places they are invasive and
destructive.


songbird

In article ,
says...


the words "good soil" were used
in reference to "50 worms per sq ft".
not all good soil contains worms.
in some places they are invasive and
destructive.

Better give a citation for this one.

In article ,
phorbin wrote:

In article ,
says...


the words "good soil" were used
in reference to "50 worms per sq ft".
not all good soil contains worms.
in some places they are invasive and
destructive.

Better give a citation for this one.

http://www.wormdigest.org/content/view/89/2/

--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden
What use one more wake up call?

In article ,
says...
In article ,
phorbin wrote:

In article ,
says...


the words "good soil" were used
in reference to "50 worms per sq ft".
not all good soil contains worms.
in some places they are invasive and
destructive.

Better give a citation for this one.

http://www.wormdigest.org/content/view/89/2/



....but I wanted songbird to do the work.

That said, I knew about the Euroworms in North America but hadn't
thought about their takeover affecting native species.

It stands to reason that they would, and that that they would be a
problem.

In article ,
phorbin wrote:

In article ,
says...
In article ,
phorbin wrote:

In article ,
says...


the words "good soil" were used
in reference to "50 worms per sq ft".
not all good soil contains worms.
in some places they are invasive and
destructive.

Better give a citation for this one.

http://www.wormdigest.org/content/view/89/2/



...but I wanted songbird to do the work.

That said, I knew about the Euroworms in North America but hadn't
thought about their takeover affecting native species.

It's not a matter of native species. Apparently, northern forests have
adapted to piles of un-decomposed leaves. The invasive earthworms do
just what all gardeners want them to do, they decompose the leaf litter,
thereby changing the forest environment. It is my understanding that
this changed environment "may" threaten some species of trees, and
plants, but has not done so, so far. Probably need a forester to answer
this question.



It stands to reason that they would, and that that they would be a
problem.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/2...al_crime_scene

In article ,
phorbin wrote:

In article ,
says...


the words "good soil" were used
in reference to "50 worms per sq ft".
not all good soil contains worms.
in some places they are invasive and
destructive.

Better give a citation for this one.

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/invasives...rthworms/index.
html
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/2...al_crime_scene

In article
,
Billy wrote:

In article ,
phorbin wrote:

In article ,
says...


the words "good soil" were used
in reference to "50 worms per sq ft".
not all good soil contains worms.
in some places they are invasive and
destructive.

Better give a citation for this one.


Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web
Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis
http://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Microb.../dp/0881927775
/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815176&sr= 1-1

Ch.1, paragraph 2
"In addition to all the living organisms you can see in garden (HELLO)
soils (for example, there are up to 50 earthworms in a square foot [0.09
square meters] of good soil), . . ."
----

We were talking garden soils so she segues into forestry. She is either
dense or a troll.
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/invasives...rthworms/index
..html
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/2...al_crime_scene

Billy wrote:
....
We were talking garden soils so she segues into forestry. She is
either dense or a troll.

we were talking about
feeding the world using
organic methods vs.
current agri-chem-oil.

asides and tangents happen
in usenet.


songbird (for most bird species the male sings