Since you both expressed a concern on this subject,..

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUST...3?pageNumber=1

Researchers find "alarming" decline in bumblebees
By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Editor

WASHINGTON | Mon Jan 3, 2011 3:36pm
EST

Genetic tests show that the four affected bumblebee species are inbred
and other tests implicate a parasite called Nosema bombi, Cameron*
said...

They documented a 96 percent decline in the numbers of the four
species, and said their range had shrunk by as much as 87 percent. As
with honeybees, a pathogen is partly involved, but the researchers
also found evidence of inbreeding caused by habitat loss....

*Dr Cameron: http://www.life.illinois.edu/entomol...y/cameron.html

On 01/03/11 6:46 PM, sometime in the recent past Gunner posted this:
Since you both expressed a concern on this subject,..

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUST...3?pageNumber=1

Researchers find "alarming" decline in bumblebees
By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Editor

WASHINGTON | Mon Jan 3, 2011 3:36pm
EST

Genetic tests show that the four affected bumblebee species are inbred
and other tests implicate a parasite called Nosema bombi, Cameron*
said...

They documented a 96 percent decline in the numbers of the four
species, and said their range had shrunk by as much as 87 percent. As
with honeybees, a pathogen is partly involved, but the researchers
also found evidence of inbreeding caused by habitat loss....

*Dr Cameron: http://www.life.illinois.edu/entomol...y/cameron.html

Thanks Gunner. The idea of a bumblebee being inbred sounds like a result of
population decline as opposed to being the source of the decline. All
creatures would inbreed if their numbers declined too much as a mechanism of
survival.

"As with honeybees, a pathogen is partly involved" yet the article doesn't
mention the pathogen specifically. It does use the singular and not the
plural, pathogens, indicating an oversight or somebody has a specific poison
in mind.

--
Wilson 44.69, -67.3

On Jan 5, 9:45 am, Wilson wrote:

Thanks Gunner.

You’re welcome Wilson If this is of a real interest I will continue
to give info as I find it, if not do let me know. Just know I do not
find any real evidence that CCD is/was caused by Bayer Crop Science,
yet we both know neither will be convinced otherwise. I still maintain
there is & has been more than one cause in play as I have outlined
before and we need to find and fix one, but preferably both. We need
to dispense with mythologies, hidden agendas and falsehoods in order
to move forward. I got some xtra time today to wax so without too
much philosophical lecture and debate....

The idea of a bumblebee being inbred sounds like a result of
population decline as opposed to being the source of the decline.

That is the unknown Cameron seeks reason for and her call for more
studies. With such short lifecycles perhaps we will see the
evolutionary outcome in our life, particularly with the
"Africanization" of the honey bee (The AHB) here in the Western
World. It amazes me that people clamoring about the ecological
contamination and protection of species do not know that the honey
bee is a non native species in the US, or much about the Darwinian
hybridization of the AHB. They are the most fittest to survive.
Perhaps a good thing for the preservation of the honey bee, maybe not
so much for those few humans attacked or killed by them so there is
the trade-off. should we kill off the pesticides, the pathogen or
just build a better bee?

All creatures would inbreed if their numbers declined too much as a mechanism of
survival.

Yes, there are instances of that theory in history, yet territory
expansion and evolutionary cross breeding are more prevalent outcomes
in nature. Regardless, her point is to what extent and what outcome
is the loss of this important pollinator, the bumble bee?

"As with honeybees, a pathogen is partly involved" yet the article doesn't
mention the pathogen specifically. It does use the singular and not the
plural, pathogens, indicating an oversight or somebody has a specific poison
in mind.

A semantically narrow interpretative view perhaps. I read that
passage as "a"... one...in a list of many such pathogens. In peer
reviewed material going back scores of years there is antidotal as
well as documented evidence of many different pathogens related to the
many different species observed in CCD events. Now specifically for
the Bumble Bee study, she absolutely lists the pathogen she found,
Nosema bombi and evidence of another stressor, the inbreeding. Two (2)
causative elements as was reported in the UC/US Army study. You find
not only Nosema, but Vorra; viruses like APV, & IAPV; the many brood
diseases such as SAC, Chalk, Purple, Stone; parasites such as B.
Coeca, Tracheal, etc. found to have infected many hives and many
species, to say “a” single pathogen is responsible. The same goes for
pesticides, yet not given in many of these accusations, such as
Phorbin’s, is dosage and application being used or most likely;
misused. Another strange fact not discussed is why did it take 5
years to kill off the German bees with neonicotinoids, 2003
(introduction) to 2008 (kill-off) banning?.

So again note, there has been identified many different pathogens
from the many different CCD studies, as well as many different types
of pesticides, singularly and in combination with each other, found
in the many kills throughout the many years. There remains to date
no commonality link in these “many” occurrences for one to
arbitrarily assign blame to Bayer. So despite the great desire to
stick it to the evil corporation and Bayer in particuliar, I have to
say there is no evidence to support that theory. I would hazard the
guess that this is a hopeful myth and one of many counter measures
being used to fight the GMO movement.

Go back to the UC/US Army study of 2010 in our last thread. What was
unique in that study was the forensic methodology was as an important
factor as the actual find. I believe it explained why it was not
confirmed beforehand and highlights the state of the art in biological
detection we have now since the WOT. The finding in that specific
case was that it is a combination of two elements, hence the "a
pathogen is partly involved" statement.

Until we get the chance again Wilson, Stay warm and dry

In article 2c7ac91f-b4a0-4236-ae20-c15158e6e3e1
@n2g2000pre.googlegroups.com, says...
Since you both expressed a concern on this subject,..

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUST...3?pageNumber=1

Researchers find "alarming" decline in bumblebees
By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Editor

WASHINGTON | Mon Jan 3, 2011 3:36pm
EST

Genetic tests show that the four affected bumblebee species are inbred
and other tests implicate a parasite called Nosema bombi, Cameron*
said...

They documented a 96 percent decline in the numbers of the four
species, and said their range had shrunk by as much as 87 percent. As
with honeybees, a pathogen is partly involved, but the researchers
also found evidence of inbreeding caused by habitat loss....

*Dr Cameron: http://www.life.illinois.edu/entomol...y/cameron.html

We've been watching this issue for awhile but hadn't run into Cameron's
work. We were hearing reports of bombus decline several years ago but
didn't know the extent.

As with honeybees it's likely complex.

In your explorations have you encountered Varroa Sensitive Hygeine and
have you tried googling 'sub-lethal neonicotinoid bees'.

Wilson wrote:
Gunner posted this:

Since you both expressed a concern on this subject,..

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUST...3?pageNumber=1

Researchers find "alarming" decline in bumblebees
By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Editor

WASHINGTON | Mon Jan 3, 2011 3:36pm
EST

Genetic tests show that the four affected bumblebee species are inbred
and other tests implicate a parasite called Nosema bombi, Cameron*
said...

They documented a 96 percent decline in the numbers of the four
species, and said their range had shrunk by as much as 87 percent. As
with honeybees, a pathogen is partly involved, but the researchers
also found evidence of inbreeding caused by habitat loss....

*Dr Cameron: http://www.life.illinois.edu/entomol...y/cameron.html

Thanks Gunner. The idea of a bumblebee being inbred sounds like a result of
population decline as opposed to being the source of the decline. All
creatures would inbreed if their numbers declined too much as a mechanism of
survival.

Let's see if I have the likely chain of events right. Bumble bees are a
wild pollinator. Honey bees are a domesticated pollinator. Because
honey bees are domesticated they are widly used. Because honey bees
are widely used a lot of them have gone ferral. Ferral honey bee
colonies compete with bumble bees. That competition has reduced their
population. No wonder I know of folks who will destroy any ferral honey
bee nest they find yet I also know of bee keepers who will gather any
ferral nest and use it to reduce inbreeding in their commercial bee
stocks.

On Fri, 07 Jan 2011 17:43:07 +0000, Doug Freyburger wrote:

Wilson wrote:
Gunner posted this:

Since you both expressed a concern on this subject,..

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUST...3?pageNumber=1

Researchers find "alarming" decline in bumblebees By Maggie Fox,
Health and Science Editor

WASHINGTON | Mon Jan 3, 2011 3:36pm
EST

Genetic tests show that the four affected bumblebee species are inbred
and other tests implicate a parasite called Nosema bombi, Cameron*
said...

They documented a 96 percent decline in the numbers of the four
species, and said their range had shrunk by as much as 87 percent. As
with honeybees, a pathogen is partly involved, but the researchers
also found evidence of inbreeding caused by habitat loss....

*Dr Cameron:
http://www.life.illinois.edu/entomol...y/cameron.html

Thanks Gunner. The idea of a bumblebee being inbred sounds like a
result of population decline as opposed to being the source of the
decline. All creatures would inbreed if their numbers declined too much
as a mechanism of survival.

Let's see if I have the likely chain of events right. Bumble bees are a
wild pollinator. Honey bees are a domesticated pollinator. Because
honey bees are domesticated they are widly used. Because honey bees are
widely used a lot of them have gone ferral. Ferral honey bee colonies
compete with bumble bees. That competition has reduced their
population. No wonder I know of folks who will destroy any ferral honey
bee nest they find yet I also know of bee keepers who will gather any
ferral nest and use it to reduce inbreeding in their commercial bee
stocks.

Honeybees have been used for centuries, if competition from them were the
cause for the decline in bumblebees it would have happened a long time
ago. That's not to say that there is no relationship. If the problem is a
disease then domestic honeybees might very well be the vector that's
spreading the disease to wild bees. Domestic bee hives are trucked around
the country which gives them the opportunity to pick up diseases from one
state and then to carry it to another state in a matter of weeks.

In article ,
General Schvantzkoph wrote:

On Fri, 07 Jan 2011 17:43:07 +0000, Doug Freyburger wrote:

Wilson wrote:
Gunner posted this:

Since you both expressed a concern on this subject,..

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUST...3?pageNumber=1

Researchers find "alarming" decline in bumblebees By Maggie Fox,
Health and Science Editor

WASHINGTON | Mon Jan 3, 2011 3:36pm
EST

Genetic tests show that the four affected bumblebee species are inbred
and other tests implicate a parasite called Nosema bombi, Cameron*
said...

They documented a 96 percent decline in the numbers of the four
species, and said their range had shrunk by as much as 87 percent. As
with honeybees, a pathogen is partly involved, but the researchers
also found evidence of inbreeding caused by habitat loss....

*Dr Cameron:
http://www.life.illinois.edu/entomol...y/cameron.html

Thanks Gunner. The idea of a bumblebee being inbred sounds like a
result of population decline as opposed to being the source of the
decline. All creatures would inbreed if their numbers declined too much
as a mechanism of survival.

Let's see if I have the likely chain of events right. Bumble bees are a
wild pollinator. Honey bees are a domesticated pollinator. Because
honey bees are domesticated they are widly used. Because honey bees are
widely used a lot of them have gone ferral. Ferral honey bee colonies
compete with bumble bees. That competition has reduced their
population. No wonder I know of folks who will destroy any ferral honey
bee nest they find yet I also know of bee keepers who will gather any
ferral nest and use it to reduce inbreeding in their commercial bee
stocks.

Honeybees have been used for centuries, if competition from them were the
cause for the decline in bumblebees it would have happened a long time
ago. That's not to say that there is no relationship. If the problem is a
disease then domestic honeybees might very well be the vector that's
spreading the disease to wild bees. Domestic bee hives are trucked around
the country which gives them the opportunity to pick up diseases from one
state and then to carry it to another state in a matter of weeks.

http://www.esajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1890/02-0626?journalCode=ecol

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=...+graphical+dec
line&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart

I deal with this complex issue just by providing a habitat that living
things like. Water,plants and pollen and insects to eat.

In return I get wonder.

Last year mantis yielded two juveniles I saw hope I see an egg cluster
this spring. Seen no honey bee's but bumblebees and all sorts of small
wasps were about.

--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden

"Always tell the truth and you don't have to remember anything."
--Mark Twain.

General Schvantzkoph wrote:
Doug Freyburger wrote:

Let's see if I have the likely chain of events right. Bumble bees are a
wild pollinator. Honey bees are a domesticated pollinator. Because
honey bees are domesticated they are widly used. Because honey bees are
widely used a lot of them have gone ferral. Ferral honey bee colonies
compete with bumble bees. That competition has reduced their
population. No wonder I know of folks who will destroy any ferral honey
bee nest they find yet I also know of bee keepers who will gather any
ferral nest and use it to reduce inbreeding in their commercial bee
stocks.

Honeybees have been used for centuries, if competition from them were the
cause for the decline in bumblebees it would have happened a long time
ago. That's not to say that there is no relationship. If the problem is a
disease then domestic honeybees might very well be the vector that's
spreading the disease to wild bees. Domestic bee hives are trucked around
the country which gives them the opportunity to pick up diseases from one
state and then to carry it to another state in a matter of weeks.

It's also true that argiculture has been growing for millennia and
continues to grow. Populations work by how-many more than by
any-at-all. If honey bees were invasive compared to bumble bees they
would have started driving them out early on. If honey bees compete on
a near even basis then the steady increase of agricultural use would be
a deciding factor.

I suspect both are true. Bumble bees are suseptible to whatever causes
colony collapse disorder and ferral honey bees have gradually pushed
down the polulation of bumble bees without driving them rapidly towards
extinction.

On Jan 7, 9:43*am, Doug Freyburger wrote:
Wilson wrote:
Gunner posted this:

Since you both expressed a concern on this subject,..

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUST...3?pageNumber=1

Researchers find "alarming" decline in bumblebees

There are studies that show the bumble bee and the honey bee coexist
quite readily with the honey bee being the pollinator of choice for
agricrops because of its pollen collector design and "buzziness" .
The bumble is larger and not as effective in collecting and
pollinating, also tends to mark it's flower so others don't visit
until the scent is worn off.

There is not much consensus for the territory competition theory as a
major cause. More likely smaller hives and crop loss to urbanization
is restricting foraging opportunities. Still remains to be seen.

In your explorations have you encountered Varroa Sensitive Hygeine and
have you tried googling 'sub-lethal neonicotinoid bees'.-

I used your suggestion and googled them both, The Varroa Sensitive
Hygeine Queen is interesting and maybe quite useful in restoring
populations but again we need to identify and control all the
factors. The however is still believed to be pathogen(s) and
stressor(s).

as for the 'sub-lethal neonicotinoid angle . Do note that the
drunken beeor mad bee syndrome is very similiar, be it caused by
natural fermentation, corn syrup, etc. So perhaps that is one of the
stressor. (loss of inhibition perhaps?) Again there is increased
levels of pesticides ( to include miticides to control the pathogens)
found in all hives and bees to include neonicotinoid. But these are
all found in healthy as well as collapsed hives and this has been
going on for many more years than neonicotinoid has been around.
Again I would have to ask why did it take 5 years for a major kill off
in the FRG? Not logical. But to your specifics concern If you get a
chance read this in its entirety, here is a snippet.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0009754

High Levels of Miticides and Agrochemicals in North American Apiaries:
Implications for Honey Bee Health:

"Since 1999, beekeepers in France experiencing bee losses described as
“mad bee disease” have blamed the systemic neonicotinoid pesticide,
imidacloprid [14]. Lab studies confirmed its toxicity to bees,
including impaired learning and memory [10], and field studies found
low levels of imidacloprid in a high percentage of pollen samples
collected from maize, sunflower and canola [7], [8]. Conflicting data
exist for establishing a causal relationship between imidacloprid and
honey bee losses, yet regulatory concerns remain [15]."

Go back to the UC/US Army study of 2010 in our last thread

Sorry...... its the U. of Montana/US Army...... not the U of Colorado.

I'll add for those who don't know that there are several grades of
soaker hose, better quality soaker hose lasts for many years and does
not waste water.