Ohioguy wrote:
billy quoted:
....
Laboratory studies have shown teratogenic effects of roundup in
animals[13] [14]. These reports have proposed that the teratogenics are
caused by impaired retinoicacid signaling[15]. A 2011 report by Earth
Open Source asserts that the roundup active ingredient - glyphosate -
has caused birth defects in laboratory animal tests[16].

I would question the initial assumptions of any study done by a group
called "Earth Open Source". Most likely, they simply decided that they
wanted to see certain results, then did what they could in the study to
try to make them happen.

i have no idea how credible many of
these cites are. you're welcome to post
some actual knowledge on the subject
instead of slander.


A 2008 scientific study has shown that Roundup formulations and
metabolic products cause the death of human embryonic, placental, and
umbilical cells in vitro, even at low concentrations.

Yep, applying various chemicals directly to a human embryo will do
that. Peanut butter and jelly probably will, too. However, in real
life they are a bit less likely to come into direct contact with a human
embryo, don't you think?

heh, i always thought such studies as pretty
far fetched too, but if you want to use them as
a basis of comparison or to test mutagenisis then
they at least say "this substance is worse than
that other one". which is useful to know even if
the likelyhood of direct contact is low.

i think the most useful studies are those that
get into the liver metabolic pathways and other
organs of the body that might accumulate or
filter the substance in question. i notice not
many cite mentions actual accumulation in the
body or how the liver or other organs processes
glyphosate.


Deliberate ingestion of Roundup herbicide in quantities ranging from 85
to 200 ml has resulted in death within hours of ingestion,

Wow, I'm sure there is a whole list of various products, not meant
for human consumption, that would cause discomfort or death if we ate
them. How about that box of roofing nails out in the garage?

a good source of iron.


Now I know I'm just being a bit hard on you. Obviously it would be
safer if we didn't use any pesticides. However, that isn't going to
happen,

it happens here all the time (no pesticides).
in this case glyphosate isn't a pesticide anyways
it is a herbicide.


and there are times that crops would completely fail without
them.

unlikely to be true. many pests when left alone will
not kill the host plant completely. they will chew some
leaves and then spin a cocoon and then pupate and go on
to the next generation like many other critters.

this season i have several examples of pests doing
some damage, but not "complete failure" level damage.
i've left them alone and most of the plants have easily
outgrown the damage.


I'm just saying that I question the impartiality of any studies
out there, because the studies are often funded by groups that are
wanting to bolster a certain, pre-determined point of view. The
environmental groups want to prove that things are dangerous, while the
companies that make the products want to prove that they are not. It's
not good science. I try to see both sides of the issue, because most of
my relatives are farmers, but I also have a BS in Environmental Studies.

i wouldn't say that from what you write here.


I'm not ready to go organic, and probably never will. However, I do
try to only use insecticides, fungicides and such after I have verified
a problem that is spreading. Several times I've waited too long and
lost most of a crop.

there are few plantings i've done and lost
"most" and as of yet i've not lost "everything"
not ever. interplanting, mixed beds, paying
attention and getting at some troubles when
first noticed goes a long ways towards avoiding
later losses.


Even so, I'm not comfortable with spraying "just
in case". I figure that my "spraying as necessary" approach probably
only uses 10% of the chemicals that most of the fruits and vegetables at
the store have on them. Plus, I know which chemicals were used, and
they tend to be those that don't hang around as long.

i'm glad. it seems that much of
what people do when they put in lawns
and gardens is try to outdo the neighbors
on how many pounds of fertilizers and
poisons they can shove at the problems
and how much water they can pollute.

i don't have much good to say about
the commercial farmers here either.
the number of times they spray on a
windy day when not much reaches the
ground/weeds is sad. the way they plow
right up to the edge of the ditches
or burn and trench through ditches or
don't leave any kind of erosion
control or cover crops for the winter
is like saying they don't even care
about actually building fertile topsoil.
instead they pump fertilizers and
chemicals at the problems. all those
chemicals run off too in some form or
another.

i don't know how you can think any
of this current chemical infusion madness
is sustainable or good for the long term.


songbird

it happens here all the time (no pesticides).
in this case glyphosate isn't a pesticide anyways
it is a herbicide.

There are many different kinds of pesticides. Herbicides kill
plants. Fungicides kill fungus. Insecticides kill insects. There are
also rodenticides, biocides and others. Anyway, these are all pesticides.


this season i have several examples of pests doing
some damage, but not "complete failure" level damage.
i've left them alone and most of the plants have easily
outgrown the damage.

I have previously had a fungus get so out of control that it
completely wiped out my gourds. This was despite applying garden
sulphur to the leaves. I have also had other vine crops utterly
destroyed by squash vine borer. This last one is very aggravating,
because you can even have large fruits on the vine, and be expecting a
harvest when it happens.


i'm glad. it seems that much of
what people do when they put in lawns
and gardens is try to outdo the neighbors

I never use fertilizer or anything on my lawn. What's the point?
You just have to mow more often, and it kills off fireflies and
diversity. Why pay for something you don't need, just to force yourself
to spend more time mowing and buying more gasoline, which pollutes the
air further? Anyway, I have more clover and variety out in the yard
than just about anybody else nearby. The 'Trugreen' trucks like to
target our house as one of the lone standouts in the neighborhood when
they go around trying to drum up business. I know it probably sounds
strange, but I'll put chemicals on my food way before I'll spray it all
around the yard. My plants have to look like they're dying or
something, though, and I do tend to try to manually pick off the
offending critters first, if possible.

The only way I'm interested in "outdoing" the neighbors is perhaps by
installing a cistern to capture some of the rainwater to water plants
with, or maybe in converting more of my lawn into a productive garden.
If we had enough room, I would also have a small wetland area in the
back. This year I planted some garden crops out in the front yard,
around the mailbox. (kohlrabi and kale) I may expand this slowly. I
would like almost my whole front yard to be a garden, but I'm a bit
worried about how the neighbors in this area would react to something
that unusual. We are fairly new to the place, and I'm already putting
out an urban chicken coop in the back yard.

Ohioguy wrote:
songbird wrote:

it happens here all the time (no pesticides).
in this case glyphosate isn't a pesticide anyways
it is a herbicide.

There are many different kinds of pesticides. Herbicides kill
plants. Fungicides kill fungus. Insecticides kill insects. There are
also rodenticides, biocides and others. Anyway, these are all pesticides.

ah, ok, i see what you mean. i wouldn't use
pesticide in place of herbicide as i generally
don't consider many weeds to be pests (just a
few).


this season i have several examples of pests doing
some damage, but not "complete failure" level damage.
i've left them alone and most of the plants have easily
outgrown the damage.

I have previously had a fungus get so out of control that it
completely wiped out my gourds. This was despite applying garden
sulphur to the leaves.

yeah, these humid midwest summers can be
hell on the dry loving plants.


I have also had other vine crops utterly
destroyed by squash vine borer. This last one is very aggravating,
because you can even have large fruits on the vine, and be expecting a
harvest when it happens.

sure, that would suck. we have had more trouble
from people stealing melons/squash than losing them
from bugs. we haven't grown any now for a few years
because of that. this season there is a vagrant
squash plant that i'll let grow and we'll see how
it goes. if the borers get it i won't fret, the
plant is a freebie and the space will be covered
one way or another. if the squash plant can do
it then i won't need to worry about a different
cover until the peas go in again.


i'm glad. it seems that much of
what people do when they put in lawns
and gardens is try to outdo the neighbors

I never use fertilizer or anything on my lawn. What's the point?
You just have to mow more often, and it kills off fireflies and
diversity. Why pay for something you don't need, just to force yourself
to spend more time mowing and buying more gasoline, which pollutes the
air further?

majorly agreed...


Anyway, I have more clover and variety out in the yard
than just about anybody else nearby. The 'Trugreen' trucks like to
target our house as one of the lone standouts in the neighborhood when
they go around trying to drum up business. I know it probably sounds
strange, but I'll put chemicals on my food way before I'll spray it all
around the yard. My plants have to look like they're dying or
something, though, and I do tend to try to manually pick off the
offending critters first, if possible.

i hand pick first too. if the trouble is
aphids i sometimes will prune or pull the
plant. lately the ladybugs have been doing
ok in keeping the gardens clear of aphids.


The only way I'm interested in "outdoing" the neighbors is perhaps by
installing a cistern to capture some of the rainwater to water plants
with,

i'd love it if we had that kind
of setup here too. we use the well
water as it is good, but rain water is
much better.


or maybe in converting more of my lawn into a productive garden.

we have done that here to the point
where only about 5% of the grass/lawn is
left to mow. that makes me happy as i
would much rather plant gardens, weed,
mulch, harvest, etc than mow. now that
i've converted the one large area that
used to be a field of random weeds into
more managed spaces including a supply of
green manure for other gardens and making
fertilizer (using worms).


If we had enough room, I would also have a small wetland area in the
back. This year I planted some garden crops out in the front yard,
around the mailbox. (kohlrabi and kale) I may expand this slowly. I
would like almost my whole front yard to be a garden, but I'm a bit
worried about how the neighbors in this area would react to something
that unusual. We are fairly new to the place, and I'm already putting
out an urban chicken coop in the back yard.

if you are in a city or town there may
even be regulations about how tall your
grass can be before you start getting
threats of mowing from the outside. i
was rather amazed when i lived with my
exgf that she got a letter for letting a
few plants grow taller in her lawn so
they could flower and set seed (we suspected
her ex for instigating that). oy!

i'm tremendously lucky here, we aren't
in the city/town and no nearby neighbors
to harrass us over such things. the only
trouble we get is from drifting sprays
from the farm fields or runoff if there
is a lot of rain quickly.

we have a small pond, but it is kept
sterile (not my doing, i would like
a real frog habitat, but that's not
happened yet). i use various methods
for keeping runoff sequestered in low
areas but if it is dry for a week or
two then these areas go dry. i would
like to have a much deeper spot for a
pond but not yet. some day...
i have a good source of water that
could be used to keep the level somewhat
constant and i have a design in mind
but getting it by the management and
going is a whole different story.

good luck with your plans.


songbird