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#1
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OT but a welcome bit of brightness
On Thursday, May 2, 2013 9:44:34 AM UTC-6, songbird wrote:
Roy wrote: ... That so-called "Devil's Bargain" is total bullshit fiction. dude, you just quoted an entire article (and double spaced it) and then added one line? songbird Sorry about that....will edit if and when there is another posting. |
#2
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OT but a welcome bit of brightness
In article ,
Roy wrote: On Thursday, May 2, 2013 9:44:34 AM UTC-6, songbird wrote: Roy wrote: ... That so-called "Devil's Bargain" is total bullshit fiction. dude, you just quoted an entire article (and double spaced it) and then added one line? songbird Sorry about that....will edit if and when there is another posting. Feel free to offer some citations for your responses, otherwise it is just opinion, and you know what they say about opinions. -- Remember Rachel Corrie http://www.rachelcorrie.org/ Welcome to the New America. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg |
#3
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OT but a welcome bit of brightness
Billy wrote:
.... Feel free to offer some citations for your responses, otherwise it is just opinion, and you know what they say about opinions. from _Permaculture_, Bill Mollison, 1990 p. 377 "SOILS In drylands, any soil humus can rapidly decompose (in dry-cracked soils) to nitrates with heat and water, giving a sometimes lethal flush of nitrate to new seedlings. Dry cultivated soils exacerbates this effect. Mulches or litter on top of the soils prevents both soil cracking and the lethal effect of rapid temperature gains that cook feeder roots at the surface, so that in subsequent rains there is less roots to absorb water. Fire is destructive of this protective litter. After fire and cultivation, most of the soil nitrogen, sulphur, and phosphorous is lost, and even a cool fire loses plant nutrients to soil water and leaching. When we know more of the effects of fire in drylands, it is my opinion that we will use any other method (slashing, rolling, even light grazing) to reduce fire litter to soil mulch. It now seems probable that Aboriginal burning has not only gravely depleted soil nutrients, but caused a breakdown in soil structure, and perhaps been in great part responsible for the saltpans that preceded agriculture. However, agriculture itself is a mon- strously effective way to speed up this process and intensify it." an opinion from someone who wrote a primary text on permaculture. it would be interesting to know what observations he used to form that opinion. i've yet to see anyone else make the obvious connection between grassland burnings and soil depletion for drylands. to me the thought upon seeing fires almost anyplace is of all those nutrients going up in smoke. the book has been interesting overall. i like many of his perspectives and how to treat an area based upon the limit of the water supply and that you cannot have more people than the worst case scenario will support. also he recognizes overgrazing as the most damaging problem for many areas that are currently having trouble feeding people. and like me he laments the loss of the forests. songbird |
#4
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OT but a welcome bit of brightness
In article ,
songbird wrote: Billy wrote: ... Feel free to offer some citations for your responses, otherwise it is just opinion, and you know what they say about opinions. from _Permaculture_, Bill Mollison, 1990 p. 377 And this would be "Permaculture : a designer's manual / by Bill Mollison ; illustrated by Andrew Jeeves", 576 pages, Tagari Publications (December 1988) Good thing his books are available at the library. They are very pricy. "SOILS In drylands, any soil humus can rapidly decompose (in dry-cracked soils) to nitrates with heat and water, giving a sometimes lethal flush of nitrate to new seedlings. Dry cultivated soils exacerbates this effect. Mulches or litter on top of the soils prevents both soil cracking and the lethal effect of rapid temperature gains that cook feeder roots at the surface, so that in subsequent rains there is less roots to absorb water. Warm, wet environments also lead to rapid breakdown of organic material (OM). This is also the reason that healthy soil should only be 5% by weight, 10% by volume "OM". Otherwise, you'll pollute just like chemical fertilizers. Fire is destructive of this protective litter. After fire and cultivation, most of the soil nitrogen, sulphur, and phosphorous is lost, and even a cool fire loses plant nutrients to soil water and leaching. When we know more of the effects of fire in drylands, it is my opinion that we will use any other method (slashing, rolling, even light grazing) to reduce fire litter to soil mulch. It now seems probable that Aboriginal burning has not only gravely depleted soil nutrients, but caused a breakdown in soil structure, and perhaps been in great part responsible for the saltpans that preceded agriculture. However, agriculture itself is a mon- strously effective way to speed up this process and intensify it." In the book by Charles Mann, "1492", it was noted that the Amazonians used "slashed and burn" agriculture, which was detrimental to the land. Exhausting the laterite soil, they had to move every couple of years IIRC. Subsequent archeology revealed that the Amazonians had a much more complex society that wasn't reflected in their "slash, and burm" agriculture. Prior to the arrival of diseased Europeans, many Amazonians lead an urban life based on great orchards. However, to protect themselves against European diseases, Amazonians left their cities to live in small groups, which survived by subsistent farming. an opinion from someone who wrote a primary text on permaculture. it would be interesting to know what observations he used to form that opinion. i've yet to see anyone else make the obvious connection between grassland burnings and soil depletion for drylands. to me the thought upon seeing fires almost anyplace is of all those nutrients going up in smoke. The soil needs to have organic material in order to hold moisture, and to feed the micro-organisms that compose the soil ecology, which ultimately feed the plants. Whether the "OM" is lost by the rapid oxidation of cellulose in a fire, or the stimulation of micro-organism in the soil from aeration caused by a plow doesn't make any difference. Any consistent loss of "OM" from the soil will reduce it's fertility. the book has been interesting overall. i like many of his perspectives and how to treat an area based upon the limit of the water supply and that you cannot have more people than the worst case scenario will support. also he recognizes overgrazing as the most damaging problem for many areas that are currently having trouble feeding people. and like me he laments the loss of the forests. The forests, of course, are the source of freshwater. songbird -- Remember Rachel Corrie http://www.rachelcorrie.org/ Welcome to the New America. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg |
#5
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OT but a welcome bit of brightness
Billy wrote:
songbird wrote: Billy wrote: ... Feel free to offer some citations for your responses, otherwise it is just opinion, and you know what they say about opinions. from _Permaculture_, Bill Mollison, 1990 p. 377 And this would be "Permaculture : a designer's manual / by Bill Mollison ; illustrated by Andrew Jeeves", 576 pages, Tagari Publications (December 1988) Good thing his books are available at the library. They are very pricy. been a very interesting read. i think the general information in it is worth contemplation. i'm not sure some of his political or other views are really needed, but how could anyone write such a large topical book like this and not wander off on a few rants here or there? sadly, it really needed a good editor and more proof readers to catch the many textual layout mistakes, miswords, and outright factual errors. [moles don't eat/store bulbs, but they may shift them a little bit in their diggings -- other creatures that use their tunnels may eat and store bulbs, but that is a whole different thing...] "SOILS In drylands, any soil humus can rapidly decompose (in dry-cracked soils) to nitrates with heat and water, giving a sometimes lethal flush of nitrate to new seedlings. Dry cultivated soils exacerbates this effect. Mulches or litter on top of the soils prevents both soil cracking and the lethal effect of rapid temperature gains that cook feeder roots at the surface, so that in subsequent rains there is less roots to absorb water. Warm, wet environments also lead to rapid breakdown of organic material (OM). This is also the reason that healthy soil should only be 5% by weight, 10% by volume "OM". Otherwise, you'll pollute just like chemical fertilizers. i think this can vary, if you have an actively growing crop with heavy roots already established then it should be able to soak up extra nutrients quickly. Fire is destructive of this protective litter. After fire and cultivation, most of the soil nitrogen, sulphur, and phosphorous is lost, and even a cool fire loses plant nutrients to soil water and leaching. When we know more of the effects of fire in drylands, it is my opinion that we will use any other method (slashing, rolling, even light grazing) to reduce fire litter to soil mulch. It now seems probable that Aboriginal burning has not only gravely depleted soil nutrients, but caused a breakdown in soil structure, and perhaps been in great part responsible for the saltpans that preceded agriculture. However, agriculture itself is a mon- strously effective way to speed up this process and intensify it." In the book by Charles Mann, "1492", it was noted that the Amazonians used "slashed and burn" agriculture, which was detrimental to the land. Exhausting the laterite soil, they had to move every couple of years IIRC. Subsequent archeology revealed that the Amazonians had a much more complex society that wasn't reflected in their "slash, and burm" agriculture. Prior to the arrival of diseased Europeans, many Amazonians lead an urban life based on great orchards. However, to protect themselves against European diseases, Amazonians left their cities to live in small groups, which survived by subsistent farming. i suspect it was the fact that the whole area basically collapsed and the entire social setup was likely destroyed too. what remained were some fairly isolated groups and those groups not being a part of the central peoples may have had taboos about copying their ways of terra preta or tree farming. "Look what happened to them! We better do something different." an opinion from someone who wrote a primary text on permaculture. it would be interesting to know what observations he used to form that opinion. i've yet to see anyone else make the obvious connection between grassland burnings and soil depletion for drylands. to me the thought upon seeing fires almost anyplace is of all those nutrients going up in smoke. The soil needs to have organic material in order to hold moisture, and to feed the micro-organisms that compose the soil ecology, which ultimately feed the plants. Whether the "OM" is lost by the rapid oxidation of cellulose in a fire, or the stimulation of micro-organism in the soil from aeration caused by a plow doesn't make any difference. Any consistent loss of "OM" from the soil will reduce it's fertility. yes, but the added harm in fire is that some nutrients are lost to the air and dispersed. even those that can float for a long time would end up 70-80% in the oceans. at least with localized decays you have a better chance of keeping trace nutrients in the area. the book has been interesting overall. i like many of his perspectives and how to treat an area based upon the limit of the water supply and that you cannot have more people than the worst case scenario will support. also he recognizes overgrazing as the most damaging problem for many areas that are currently having trouble feeding people. and like me he laments the loss of the forests. The forests, of course, are the source of freshwater. a big part of it. songbird |
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