Robert Sturgeon wrote:

On 27 Dec 2003 15:06:03 GMT,
(Frank White) wrote:

snipped the un important stuff

We're talking about a complete and total breakdown
scenario, here, something that shuts down all commercial
and government operations and lasts for years. And
while I'm sure that, eventually, we'd get the oil
pumping, the refineries producing, and the transport
network going again in such a case, it could take a
LONG TIME.

You can call me a raving optimist if you like, but my honest
best guess is that it will always take less time to restart
oil refineries and an economy to support them than to
refurbish steam engines, learn to use them and put them to
efficient use.

If you want to sit around and not do anything until
gas starts being delivered to your local filling
station again, no matter how hungry you get, fine with
me. Or if you have a oil well in your back yard and
the knowledge and ability to crack the crude down, or
you can produce bio-diesel, that's fine too. As for
me, if it's a matter of starving, farming by hand
and horse, or firing up a steamer, I know which *I*
am going to do.

YMMV

Our mileage will be the same. We're guessing which scenario
is the more likely and which planning makes the most sense.
You are certainly welcome to fiddle with your steam engines
or whatever you're doing. In my honest opinion, people who
do that are pursuing a hobby, like archery or going to
renaissance fairs, SCA gatherings, whatever. The survival
aspects are so minimal as to be insignificant. But survival
is a good excuse for the expenditures.


I have start looking around for substitutes for Diesel fuel and
lubricants for machinery. Well low and behold I found a sub
that grows well in the high deserts of Oregon and doesn't need
that much water

The RAPESEED produces an oil that is a direct substitute for
diesel fuel. From what I understand it can be used directly
but it is really dirty. If you put the oil through a process
of fractional distillation (I guess the old booze still will
have more than one use) it cleans up very nicely.

According to the Oregon State University agricultural extension
service we should expect to get 1200 lbs of RAPEseed per acre in
an average year.

When the seed is expressed for oil the oil recovery is about
10% by weight. So 1200 lbs of Rapeseed will yield 120 lbs
(20 gallons) of low quality diesel fuel. I suspect that through
fractional distillation we would probably get 18 gallons of
fuel per acre and 1 to 1.5 gallons of lubrication oil.

The distilled Rapeseed oil would also provide oil for lamps for
lighting.

So if we plant 100 acres of Rape seed we could expect to get
1800 gallons of high quality diesel fuel.

The Independent


--
Robert Sturgeon,
proud member of the vast right wing conspiracy
and the evil gun culture.

Jim Dauven wrote:

I have start looking around for substitutes for Diesel fuel and
lubricants for machinery. Well low and behold I found a sub
that grows well in the high deserts of Oregon and doesn't need
that much water

The RAPESEED produces an oil that is a direct substitute for
diesel fuel. From what I understand it can be used directly
but it is really dirty. If you put the oil through a process
of fractional distillation (I guess the old booze still will
have more than one use) it cleans up very nicely.

According to the Oregon State University agricultural extension
service we should expect to get 1200 lbs of RAPEseed per acre in
an average year.

When the seed is expressed for oil the oil recovery is about
10% by weight. So 1200 lbs of Rapeseed will yield 120 lbs
(20 gallons) of low quality diesel fuel. I suspect that through
fractional distillation we would probably get 18 gallons of
fuel per acre and 1 to 1.5 gallons of lubrication oil.

The distilled Rapeseed oil would also provide oil for lamps for
lighting.

So if we plant 100 acres of Rape seed we could expect to get
1800 gallons of high quality diesel fuel.

The Independent



Just a couple of thoughts, Jim.

Rape (Canola) oil is a non-drying oil and was used (highly refined) as
a high-speed lubricant at one time.

You need to add pitch or resin to it to make a decent lamp fuel.

[ That's what the Ukrainians do, anyway. ]

Makes good soap too.

Wood gas is a *much* better idea for fuel and light. A fraction of the
work.


-dir

--
The greatest fine art of the future will be the making
of a comfortable living from a small piece of land.

Abraham Lincoln

"David I. Raines" wrote:

Snipped

Just a couple of thoughts, Jim.

Rape (Canola) oil is a non-drying oil and was used (highly refined) as
a high-speed lubricant at one time.

You need to add pitch or resin to it to make a decent lamp fuel.

[ That's what the Ukrainians do, anyway. ]

Makes good soap too.

Wood gas is a *much* better idea for fuel and light. A fraction of the
work.


Actually the distillation of wood will produce methanol which
when added to Rapeseed oil and place under pressure at 350 C.
produces a biodiesel that is only slightly dirtier than petroleum
based diesel fuels but with no sulfur dioxide emissions and lower
CO2 emissions, yet delivers 94.5% of the power out put of diesel.

The methalesterfication of rapeseed oil as well as peanut oil,
soybean oil, corn oil, olive oil, cottonseed oil, is a fairly
straight forward process that produces a generally high quality
biodiesel fuel from the oils. The creation of biodiesel fuel
plants are well advanced in Japan, France and Germany were many
commercial busses and taxies are running on biodiesel.

With the cheap manufacturing of Methanol from natural gas
and the abundance of vegetable oils in this country it is thought
that biodiesel could be economically competitive with petroleum
based diesel but with lower toxic emissions of green house
gases such as elimination of SO2 and lower CO2 emissions.
The dirty emissions from biodiesel is mainly soot which is
carbon and filters out of the atmosphere very quickly.

I am looking at the method of the methalesterfication of
rapeseed oil, and other oils too, in order to make biodiesel
in event of TEOTWAWKI scenario.

I have the layout of the equipment in a university lab in
Japan that did a lot of research into the methalesterfication
of Rapeseed oil to convert it into RME.

It was a stainless steel metal cylinder that allowed the raw
oil methanol mix to be pumped into the bottom, heated to 350
degrees centigrade (750 degrees fhernhite) and pressurize
the cylinder to 900 psi before the pressure valve allowed the
vapor to escape into a cooling tower to liquefy into biodiesel.

The Independent



--
The greatest fine art of the future will be the making
of a comfortable living from a small piece of land.

Abraham Lincoln

Jim Dauven wrote:

[...]



Actually the distillation of wood will produce methanol which
when added to Rapeseed oil and place under pressure at 350 C.
produces a biodiesel that is only slightly dirtier than petroleum
based diesel fuels but with no sulfur dioxide emissions and lower
CO2 emissions, yet delivers 94.5% of the power out put of diesel.

The methalesterfication of rapeseed oil as well as peanut oil,
soybean oil, corn oil, olive oil, cottonseed oil, is a fairly
straight forward process that produces a generally high quality
biodiesel fuel from the oils. The creation of biodiesel fuel
plants are well advanced in Japan, France and Germany were many
commercial busses and taxies are running on biodiesel.

With the cheap manufacturing of Methanol from natural gas
and the abundance of vegetable oils in this country it is thought
that biodiesel could be economically competitive with petroleum
based diesel but with lower toxic emissions of green house
gases such as elimination of SO2 and lower CO2 emissions.
The dirty emissions from biodiesel is mainly soot which is
carbon and filters out of the atmosphere very quickly.

I am looking at the method of the methalesterfication of
rapeseed oil, and other oils too, in order to make biodiesel
in event of TEOTWAWKI scenario.

I have the layout of the equipment in a university lab in
Japan that did a lot of research into the methalesterfication
of Rapeseed oil to convert it into RME.

It was a stainless steel metal cylinder that allowed the raw
oil methanol mix to be pumped into the bottom, heated to 350
degrees centigrade (750 degrees fhernhite) and pressurize
the cylinder to 900 psi before the pressure valve allowed the
vapor to escape into a cooling tower to liquefy into biodiesel.

The Independent

Interesting. I know someone who runs their car on "bio-diesel" so it is
certainly feasible. It's just that the work involved in making the
fuel is considerable.

Seems to me that you would have trouble making enough fuel to just till
the land to make the fuel to till the land....and so on.

Remember, agriculture and industry are heavily subsidized in present-day
America. You won't have those subsidies to make things seem easier than
they are.

What if you are driven off your land, which you have admitted in earlier
posts is possible and have very prudently planned for. Planning on
escaping on your tractor? [ meant half in jest and half seriously ]

It's gonna be a lot like Beirut here, after the system fails. We've
decided to plan on being able to split on a moment's notice with nothing
but our back packs. With these stashed well away from the Retreat.

There's only one thing that we need that can't be made from native raw
materials: Seeds. We'll have several caches of these "out there". Real
good thing that plants produce them in massive surplus.

Have you looked into no-till farming?
It's working very well for us on a smallish scale, just to feed ourselves.


-dir

--
The greatest fine art of the future will be the making
of a comfortable living from a small piece of land.

Abraham Lincoln

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 14:00:00 -0800, Jim Dauven
***snip***

I have start looking around for substitutes for Diesel fuel and
lubricants for machinery. Well low and behold I found a sub
that grows well in the high deserts of Oregon and doesn't need
that much water

The RAPESEED produces an oil that is a direct substitute for
diesel fuel. From what I understand it can be used directly
but it is really dirty. If you put the oil through a process
of fractional distillation (I guess the old booze still will
have more than one use) it cleans up very nicely.

According to the Oregon State University agricultural extension
service we should expect to get 1200 lbs of RAPEseed per acre in
an average year.

When the seed is expressed for oil the oil recovery is about
10% by weight. So 1200 lbs of Rapeseed will yield 120 lbs
(20 gallons) of low quality diesel fuel. I suspect that through
fractional distillation we would probably get 18 gallons of
fuel per acre and 1 to 1.5 gallons of lubrication oil.

The distilled Rapeseed oil would also provide oil for lamps for
lighting.

So if we plant 100 acres of Rape seed we could expect to get
1800 gallons of high quality diesel fuel.

The Independent

Have you calculated how much fuel it will take per acre to produce
Rapeseed?

Strider


--
Robert Sturgeon,
proud member of the vast right wing conspiracy
and the evil gun culture.

"David I. Raines" wrote:

Jim Dauven wrote:

[...]



Actually the distillation of wood will produce methanol which
when added to Rapeseed oil and place under pressure at 350 C.
produces a biodiesel that is only slightly dirtier than petroleum
based diesel fuels but with no sulfur dioxide emissions and lower
CO2 emissions, yet delivers 94.5% of the power out put of diesel.

The methalesterfication of rapeseed oil as well as peanut oil,
soybean oil, corn oil, olive oil, cottonseed oil, is a fairly
straight forward process that produces a generally high quality
biodiesel fuel from the oils. The creation of biodiesel fuel
plants are well advanced in Japan, France and Germany were many
commercial busses and taxies are running on biodiesel.

With the cheap manufacturing of Methanol from natural gas
and the abundance of vegetable oils in this country it is thought
that biodiesel could be economically competitive with petroleum
based diesel but with lower toxic emissions of green house
gases such as elimination of SO2 and lower CO2 emissions.
The dirty emissions from biodiesel is mainly soot which is
carbon and filters out of the atmosphere very quickly.

I am looking at the method of the methalesterfication of
rapeseed oil, and other oils too, in order to make biodiesel
in event of TEOTWAWKI scenario.

I have the layout of the equipment in a university lab in
Japan that did a lot of research into the methalesterfication
of Rapeseed oil to convert it into RME.

It was a stainless steel metal cylinder that allowed the raw
oil methanol mix to be pumped into the bottom, heated to 350
degrees centigrade (750 degrees fhernhite) and pressurize
the cylinder to 900 psi before the pressure valve allowed the
vapor to escape into a cooling tower to liquefy into biodiesel.

The Independent

Interesting. I know someone who runs their car on "bio-diesel" so it is
certainly feasible. It's just that the work involved in making the
fuel is considerable.

Seems to me that you would have trouble making enough fuel to just till
the land to make the fuel to till the land....and so on.

Remember, agriculture and industry are heavily subsidized in present-day
America. You won't have those subsidies to make things seem easier than
they are.

What if you are driven off your land, which you have admitted in earlier
posts is possible and have very prudently planned for. Planning on
escaping on your tractor? [ meant half in jest and half seriously ]

It's gonna be a lot like Beirut here, after the system fails. We've
decided to plan on being able to split on a moment's notice with nothing
but our back packs. With these stashed well away from the Retreat.

There's only one thing that we need that can't be made from native raw
materials: Seeds. We'll have several caches of these "out there". Real
good thing that plants produce them in massive surplus.

Have you looked into no-till farming?
It's working very well for us on a smallish scale, just to feed ourselves.

-dir

I have planned on using no-till farming with horse drawn
equipment. First I would run the disk harrow behind a two
horse team. That's two acres an hour for 5 hours. Change
horses (you cannot/should not run a horse more than 5 hours)
because the need time for foraging. Then run disk harrow
for another five hours. That way you can disk up 20 acres
a day. The next day run the spring tooth harrow for the
same about of time. (It actually may go faster as the
spring tooth harrow doesn't have the resistance to pulling
that the disk harrow does). Last run the grain drill for
the planting of wheat, oats, barley, rapeseed etc. These
plants are winter planting so you plant them in late september
and let them germinate in the fall rain so they will get
good start for the spring. That way the plant matures while
the moisture from the spring rains is still in the ground.

If you are raising cattle and you keep your cattle in a corral
in the winter you can use a manure spreader to spread manure
on the grain crops in the spring just as ground if thawing
This will provide additional nitrogen for the growing grain
plants. (The object of this is to get the grain as
healthy as possible for increased yield)

Also the rape oil is important here because after fertilization
of the grain heads if you spray the grain with rapeseed oil that
will kill many of the pests like grass hoppers as rapeseed oil
is toxic and does really dry out.

I don't have a horse drawn spray rig yet but it is one of the
things that will have to be constructed.

Crops that you will irrigate, Corn, potatoes, beans, peas,
onions, alfalfa, etc you plant in the spring. One trick you
can do is seed alfalfa over the grain crop that you planted
the fall before. The grain will grow faster than the alfalfa
but the alfalfa will still grow and the plant root nodules will
fix nitrogen into the soil for the grain. You do the same
no till harrow work but then you use a cultivator to make
up the rows. After planting you can then lay the soaker
tubes for a water supply.

Again after these crops have fertilized then a mist of
rapeseed oil will help in pest control.

I have herd that a mist of rapeseed oil will also control
pests on fruit and berries.

So you can see why I am very interested in the rapeseed plant
in a TEOTWAWKI scenario.

The Independent

The Independent

A man with a good supply of horses (6) should be able to
plant 180 to 200 acres of grain crops in the fall and an
additional
up the rows for the planting for crops

--
The greatest fine art of the future will be the making
of a comfortable living from a small piece of land.

Abraham Lincoln

Strider wrote:

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 14:00:00 -0800, Jim Dauven
***snip***



You obviously weren't paying attention as I have posted that I
have collected all kinds of horse drawn farming equipment for
farming in TEOTWAWKI times.

The Independent


Have you calculated how much fuel it will take per acre to produce
Rapeseed?

Strider


--
Robert Sturgeon,
proud member of the vast right wing conspiracy
and the evil gun culture.

Xref: kermit rec.gardens.edible:66125 rec.gardens:260412 misc.survivalism:505240 misc.rural:117211 rec.backcountry:173572

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 22:27:32 -0800, Jim Dauven
wrote:


A man with a good supply of horses (6) should be able to
plant 180 to 200 acres of grain crops in the fall and an
additional
up the rows for the planting for crops

As long as he keeps them out of the rapeseed field....if he dont...he
has dead or sick horses

Gunner

"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should
fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 22:30:07 -0800, Jim Dauven
wrote:



Strider wrote:

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 14:00:00 -0800, Jim Dauven
***snip***



You obviously weren't paying attention as I have posted that I
have collected all kinds of horse drawn farming equipment for
farming in TEOTWAWKI times.

The Independent

Sorry. It didn't connect.

Can the waste plant matter in your process be reused as animal feed or
fertilizer or does the process contaminate it somehow?

Strider


Have you calculated how much fuel it will take per acre to produce
Rapeseed?

Strider


--
Robert Sturgeon,
proud member of the vast right wing conspiracy
and the evil gun culture.

Curious - have you actually tried to plant and harvest hundreds of acres
using only horses for power, or is this some kind of academic exercise? The
reason I ask is that people who actually have done so, and books I have read
on pre-tractor farming indicate this is a wildly optimistic scenario.

"Jim Dauven" wrote in message
...


"David I. Raines" wrote:

Jim Dauven wrote:

[...]



Actually the distillation of wood will produce methanol which
when added to Rapeseed oil and place under pressure at 350 C.
produces a biodiesel that is only slightly dirtier than petroleum
based diesel fuels but with no sulfur dioxide emissions and lower
CO2 emissions, yet delivers 94.5% of the power out put of diesel.

The methalesterfication of rapeseed oil as well as peanut oil,
soybean oil, corn oil, olive oil, cottonseed oil, is a fairly
straight forward process that produces a generally high quality
biodiesel fuel from the oils. The creation of biodiesel fuel
plants are well advanced in Japan, France and Germany were many
commercial busses and taxies are running on biodiesel.

With the cheap manufacturing of Methanol from natural gas
and the abundance of vegetable oils in this country it is thought
that biodiesel could be economically competitive with petroleum
based diesel but with lower toxic emissions of green house
gases such as elimination of SO2 and lower CO2 emissions.
The dirty emissions from biodiesel is mainly soot which is
carbon and filters out of the atmosphere very quickly.

I am looking at the method of the methalesterfication of
rapeseed oil, and other oils too, in order to make biodiesel
in event of TEOTWAWKI scenario.

I have the layout of the equipment in a university lab in
Japan that did a lot of research into the methalesterfication
of Rapeseed oil to convert it into RME.

It was a stainless steel metal cylinder that allowed the raw
oil methanol mix to be pumped into the bottom, heated to 350
degrees centigrade (750 degrees fhernhite) and pressurize
the cylinder to 900 psi before the pressure valve allowed the
vapor to escape into a cooling tower to liquefy into biodiesel.

The Independent

Interesting. I know someone who runs their car on "bio-diesel" so it is
certainly feasible. It's just that the work involved in making the
fuel is considerable.

Seems to me that you would have trouble making enough fuel to just till
the land to make the fuel to till the land....and so on.

Remember, agriculture and industry are heavily subsidized in present-day
America. You won't have those subsidies to make things seem easier than
they are.

What if you are driven off your land, which you have admitted in earlier
posts is possible and have very prudently planned for. Planning on
escaping on your tractor? [ meant half in jest and half seriously ]

It's gonna be a lot like Beirut here, after the system fails. We've
decided to plan on being able to split on a moment's notice with nothing
but our back packs. With these stashed well away from the Retreat.

There's only one thing that we need that can't be made from native raw
materials: Seeds. We'll have several caches of these "out there". Real
good thing that plants produce them in massive surplus.

Have you looked into no-till farming?
It's working very well for us on a smallish scale, just to feed
ourselves.

-dir

I have planned on using no-till farming with horse drawn
equipment. First I would run the disk harrow behind a two
horse team. That's two acres an hour for 5 hours. Change
horses (you cannot/should not run a horse more than 5 hours)
because the need time for foraging. Then run disk harrow
for another five hours. That way you can disk up 20 acres
a day. The next day run the spring tooth harrow for the
same about of time. (It actually may go faster as the
spring tooth harrow doesn't have the resistance to pulling
that the disk harrow does). Last run the grain drill for
the planting of wheat, oats, barley, rapeseed etc. These
plants are winter planting so you plant them in late september
and let them germinate in the fall rain so they will get
good start for the spring. That way the plant matures while
the moisture from the spring rains is still in the ground.

If you are raising cattle and you keep your cattle in a corral
in the winter you can use a manure spreader to spread manure
on the grain crops in the spring just as ground if thawing
This will provide additional nitrogen for the growing grain
plants. (The object of this is to get the grain as
healthy as possible for increased yield)

Also the rape oil is important here because after fertilization
of the grain heads if you spray the grain with rapeseed oil that
will kill many of the pests like grass hoppers as rapeseed oil
is toxic and does really dry out.

I don't have a horse drawn spray rig yet but it is one of the
things that will have to be constructed.

Crops that you will irrigate, Corn, potatoes, beans, peas,
onions, alfalfa, etc you plant in the spring. One trick you
can do is seed alfalfa over the grain crop that you planted
the fall before. The grain will grow faster than the alfalfa
but the alfalfa will still grow and the plant root nodules will
fix nitrogen into the soil for the grain. You do the same
no till harrow work but then you use a cultivator to make
up the rows. After planting you can then lay the soaker
tubes for a water supply.

Again after these crops have fertilized then a mist of
rapeseed oil will help in pest control.

I have herd that a mist of rapeseed oil will also control
pests on fruit and berries.

So you can see why I am very interested in the rapeseed plant
in a TEOTWAWKI scenario.

The Independent

The Independent

A man with a good supply of horses (6) should be able to
plant 180 to 200 acres of grain crops in the fall and an
additional
up the rows for the planting for crops

--
The greatest fine art of the future will be the making
of a comfortable living from a small piece of land.

Abraham Lincoln

Bob Peterson wrote:

Curious - have you actually tried to plant and harvest hundreds of acres
using only horses for power, or is this some kind of academic exercise? The
reason I ask is that people who actually have done so, and books I have read
on pre-tractor farming indicate this is a wildly optimistic scenario.

If you skip turning the soil with a plow you are removing about
1/3 to
1/2 the work of prepairing the soil for farming.

The amount of land that can be cultivated by horse drawn equipment
depends on
the type of crops and the strategy that is used. In growing mixed
crops such
as wheat (winter wheat) rape seed, some varieties of oats and
barley, they are
planted in the fall. Using the no-till method of framing, (where
the land is
not plowed but is harrowed) it is reasonable to expect to prepare
and seed
100 acres in the months of September and October.

These crops will then be harvested in July.

Then using the no-till method in the spring to plant the late
maturing
crops like potatoes, corn, beans, peas, turnips, onions, etc.,
these crops
will be harvested in august or early september so it is reasonable
to
expect to put an additional 100 acres into production.

There fore 180 to 200 acres is the UPPER LIMIT of cultivation with
horses.

The Independent

Bob Peterson wrote:

Curious - have you actually tried to plant and harvest hundreds of acres
using only horses for power, or is this some kind of academic exercise? The
reason I ask is that people who actually have done so, and books I have read
on pre-tractor farming indicate this is a wildly optimistic scenario.

If you skip turning the soil with a plow you are removing about
1/3 to
1/2 the work of prepairing the soil for farming.

The amount of land that can be cultivated by horse drawn equipment
depends on
the type of crops and the strategy that is used. In growing mixed
crops such
as wheat (winter wheat) rape seed, some varieties of oats and
barley, they are
planted in the fall. Using the no-till method of framing, (where
the land is
not plowed but is harrowed) it is reasonable to expect to prepare
and seed
100 acres in the months of September and October.

These crops will then be harvested in July.

Then using the no-till method in the spring to plant the late
maturing
crops like potatoes, corn, beans, peas, turnips, onions, etc.,
these crops
will be harvested in august or early september so it is reasonable
to
expect to put an additional 100 acres into production.

There fore 180 to 200 acres is the UPPER LIMIT of cultivation with
horses.

The Independent

Strider wrote:

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 22:30:07 -0800, Jim Dauven
wrote:

Strider wrote:


Sorry. It didn't connect.

Can the waste plant matter in your process be reused as animal feed or
fertilizer or does the process contaminate it somehow?

Strider


All waste material is valuable, you just have to find a use for
it.
The planting of alfalfa in wheat serves two purposes. One is
fertilization the other is animal feed harvested in late fall.

The alfalfa and wheat stubble provide cover and feed for pheasant
and quail which can be harvested in the fall with a shot gun.
Wheat stalks and chaff from the thrashing process is almost pure
cellulose and is perfect for making nitrocellulose which can be a
plastic or smokeless gun powder.

The planting of flax for flax seed and flaxseed oil (linseed oil)
is an ideal crop because the flax seed is a food source, linseed
oil can be used in preservatives, and the flax stalk is the source
of linen fiber for making long wearing clothes.

The vines from vegetables such as beans, peas and corn stalks
can be used for animal feed. Plants such as potatoes and tomatoes
are members of the nightshade family and can build up dangerous
alkaloids that are toxic. These plants should be used for
composting with animal dung.

With the no-till strategy of farming it is advisable to run a disk
harrow over the harvested land as soon as the food crop is
removed.
( I disagree with this where alfalfa and grain are planted
together) but for potatoes and tomatoes this chops the plants
up and turns them under into the soil to decompose. The been
and pea plants can be left laying in the field as cattle and
goats will readily eat them. Of course goats and cattle also
leave piles of fertilizer in the same fields.

What I am trying to do is take the old technologies of horse
drawn farming (which may be the only way to farm if there is
a collapse of the energy production and distributions systems)
coupled with the advances made in farm technology and organic
farming of today. Remember if the energy production and
distribution system fails, there will be no herbicides,
pesticides, fertilizers, and fuel for equipment.
That means that we will have to use natural fertilizers such
as animal dung and nitrogen fixing plants to a maximum extent.
The pesticides will have to be replaced by natural pesticides
such as the toxic Rapeseed oil, (You can buy that stuff at most
nurseries today as a house hold pesticide, and I am told it
makes a good insect repellent also). Planting Rapeseed around
the edges of a food crop will also discourage pests from
entering the food crop. (Rapeseed border will have to be 50 to
100 feet wide however).

While a lot of what I have been thinking and researching
is not really that economically feasible with today's
reliance on chemical, mechanized farming, if the crunch comes
it will provide a source of abundant food, fiber, leather,
and some fuel to start a rebuilding process.

Hell even in the advent of a major war in the middle east
when our oil supplies are shut down, the production of
biodiesel by individuals to run their own equipment will
be of a economic benefit. The excess fuel can then be
sold to energy companies. (I like the idea of Texaco
buying diesel from me)

The Independent






Have you calculated how much fuel it will take per acre to produce
Rapeseed?

Strider


--
Robert Sturgeon,
proud member of the vast right wing conspiracy
and the evil gun culture.

Strider wrote:

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 22:30:07 -0800, Jim Dauven
wrote:

Strider wrote:


Sorry. It didn't connect.

Can the waste plant matter in your process be reused as animal feed or
fertilizer or does the process contaminate it somehow?

Strider


All waste material is valuable, you just have to find a use for
it.
The planting of alfalfa in wheat serves two purposes. One is
fertilization the other is animal feed harvested in late fall.

The alfalfa and wheat stubble provide cover and feed for pheasant
and quail which can be harvested in the fall with a shot gun.
Wheat stalks and chaff from the thrashing process is almost pure
cellulose and is perfect for making nitrocellulose which can be a
plastic or smokeless gun powder.

The planting of flax for flax seed and flaxseed oil (linseed oil)
is an ideal crop because the flax seed is a food source, linseed
oil can be used in preservatives, and the flax stalk is the source
of linen fiber for making long wearing clothes.

The vines from vegetables such as beans, peas and corn stalks
can be used for animal feed. Plants such as potatoes and tomatoes
are members of the nightshade family and can build up dangerous
alkaloids that are toxic. These plants should be used for
composting with animal dung.

With the no-till strategy of farming it is advisable to run a disk
harrow over the harvested land as soon as the food crop is
removed.
( I disagree with this where alfalfa and grain are planted
together) but for potatoes and tomatoes this chops the plants
up and turns them under into the soil to decompose. The been
and pea plants can be left laying in the field as cattle and
goats will readily eat them. Of course goats and cattle also
leave piles of fertilizer in the same fields.

What I am trying to do is take the old technologies of horse
drawn farming (which may be the only way to farm if there is
a collapse of the energy production and distributions systems)
coupled with the advances made in farm technology and organic
farming of today. Remember if the energy production and
distribution system fails, there will be no herbicides,
pesticides, fertilizers, and fuel for equipment.
That means that we will have to use natural fertilizers such
as animal dung and nitrogen fixing plants to a maximum extent.
The pesticides will have to be replaced by natural pesticides
such as the toxic Rapeseed oil, (You can buy that stuff at most
nurseries today as a house hold pesticide, and I am told it
makes a good insect repellent also). Planting Rapeseed around
the edges of a food crop will also discourage pests from
entering the food crop. (Rapeseed border will have to be 50 to
100 feet wide however).

While a lot of what I have been thinking and researching
is not really that economically feasible with today's
reliance on chemical, mechanized farming, if the crunch comes
it will provide a source of abundant food, fiber, leather,
and some fuel to start a rebuilding process.

Hell even in the advent of a major war in the middle east
when our oil supplies are shut down, the production of
biodiesel by individuals to run their own equipment will
be of a economic benefit. The excess fuel can then be
sold to energy companies. (I like the idea of Texaco
buying diesel from me)

The Independent






Have you calculated how much fuel it will take per acre to produce
Rapeseed?

Strider


--
Robert Sturgeon,
proud member of the vast right wing conspiracy
and the evil gun culture.

Strider wrote:

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 22:30:07 -0800, Jim Dauven
wrote:

Strider wrote:


Sorry. It didn't connect.

Can the waste plant matter in your process be reused as animal feed or
fertilizer or does the process contaminate it somehow?

Strider


All waste material is valuable, you just have to find a use for
it.
The planting of alfalfa in wheat serves two purposes. One is
fertilization the other is animal feed harvested in late fall.

The alfalfa and wheat stubble provide cover and feed for pheasant
and quail which can be harvested in the fall with a shot gun.
Wheat stalks and chaff from the thrashing process is almost pure
cellulose and is perfect for making nitrocellulose which can be a
plastic or smokeless gun powder.

The planting of flax for flax seed and flaxseed oil (linseed oil)
is an ideal crop because the flax seed is a food source, linseed
oil can be used in preservatives, and the flax stalk is the source
of linen fiber for making long wearing clothes.

The vines from vegetables such as beans, peas and corn stalks
can be used for animal feed. Plants such as potatoes and tomatoes
are members of the nightshade family and can build up dangerous
alkaloids that are toxic. These plants should be used for
composting with animal dung.

With the no-till strategy of farming it is advisable to run a disk
harrow over the harvested land as soon as the food crop is
removed.
( I disagree with this where alfalfa and grain are planted
together) but for potatoes and tomatoes this chops the plants
up and turns them under into the soil to decompose. The been
and pea plants can be left laying in the field as cattle and
goats will readily eat them. Of course goats and cattle also
leave piles of fertilizer in the same fields.

What I am trying to do is take the old technologies of horse
drawn farming (which may be the only way to farm if there is
a collapse of the energy production and distributions systems)
coupled with the advances made in farm technology and organic
farming of today. Remember if the energy production and
distribution system fails, there will be no herbicides,
pesticides, fertilizers, and fuel for equipment.
That means that we will have to use natural fertilizers such
as animal dung and nitrogen fixing plants to a maximum extent.
The pesticides will have to be replaced by natural pesticides
such as the toxic Rapeseed oil, (You can buy that stuff at most
nurseries today as a house hold pesticide, and I am told it
makes a good insect repellent also). Planting Rapeseed around
the edges of a food crop will also discourage pests from
entering the food crop. (Rapeseed border will have to be 50 to
100 feet wide however).

While a lot of what I have been thinking and researching
is not really that economically feasible with today's
reliance on chemical, mechanized farming, if the crunch comes
it will provide a source of abundant food, fiber, leather,
and some fuel to start a rebuilding process.

Hell even in the advent of a major war in the middle east
when our oil supplies are shut down, the production of
biodiesel by individuals to run their own equipment will
be of a economic benefit. The excess fuel can then be
sold to energy companies. (I like the idea of Texaco
buying diesel from me)

The Independent






Have you calculated how much fuel it will take per acre to produce
Rapeseed?

Strider


--
Robert Sturgeon,
proud member of the vast right wing conspiracy
and the evil gun culture.