Frogleg wrote:
On Wed, 12 May 2004 19:40:48 GMT, Mark & Shauna wrote:
Frogleg wrote:

I doubt no-till will ever be the norm but it is far more than an erosion
control and makes complete sense if you can employ it. As I stated
however this can be hard to do on a massive scale. The mere amount of
organic mulch that would be needed on large commercial farms would be
overwhelming in generation and application. No-till does produce far
better soil and therefore growing conditions for crops however I dont
think the increased yeilds of no-till practices would offset the expense
(both dollars and environmental) of going no-till on mass.

Actually, no-till is probably much easier to do on a large scale. Many
of the big farm equipment companies make machines specifically for the
purpose of no-till.

I didn't say erosion control was the *only* presumed benefit of
no-till farming. Soil compaction is reduced by not using heavy
machinery in the fields. Fossil fuel is saved and pollution avoided by
not using heavy machinery in the fields. (I wonder if harvest is by
hand.)

I don't know where you live but you might call your state's extension
service and see if they can put you in touch with someone actually using
no-till processes. You might learn a lot.

As I understand it, no-till means no weed-clearing, with planting or
seeding accomplished by slits or holes poked through existing organing
matter. I fail to understand how this reduces weeds. I also understand
that crop yields are *lower* with no-till, but one feels so good about
being 'green' that it doesn't matter.

While no single system will work better than all others in all cases,
no-till certainly does not result in *lower* yields in most cases.
Here's a piece at the University of Maryland (where much of the no-till
technology was poineered, IIRC):
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/MCE/Publicat...ion.cfm?ID=259

And another (PDF) from Iowa State University:
http://www.exnet.iastate.edu/Publications/PM1097.pdf

If you don't believe them, here's a farmer writing about no-till:
http://www.cedarmeadowfarm.com/TFSArticle08.html

--
HLS

Hi Frogleg,

I had to go to my land now, I will give more detail if I can find it
in my notes when I'm back.

Dead body of life form(plant root, earthworm, fungus...) in soil
are
organic matter, this does not till in by man. For soil contain high
organic matter, tillage can avoided by the first day. For those
soil
void of organic matter, planting cover crop and mulch can work, but
do
take long time. So I choose to till in organic matter before
implement no-till system.

But if you were willing to wait "a long time," how would mulch make
it
down to the soil that needs to be improved? I have a lot of worms in
my compost, but the clay ground underneath is still...clay.

A soil lack of oxygen(water log, compact..) will hinder life
form(plant root, earthworn...) to go into it.

Eartthworm don't like low PH soil.


Tilling certainly kills plants
(weeds) and buries the remains, but that means *more* organic
matter
in the soil

Most weed are succulent, the organic matter in a form(starch...)
that
will not last long.

Maybe in Malaysia. Weeds here are pretty much regular ol' plants,
grasses, and vines.

Tillage do cause lost of those(humus...) that can
last long. So most of the time, organic matter introduce by
tillage
does not compensate the lost cause by it. In my case, I till in a
lot
of lignin(rice hull), and lost non(soil void of organic matter).

How does tilling reduce organic matter?

All organic matter can decopose to become carbon and nutrient.
Decoposition go faster when oxygen are available. This is why compost
pile are recommended to turn for airation. Tillage do bring in oxygen.


I have nothing against mulch. However, if the mown weeds contain
seeds
or parts that easily root, I don't see how this is any 'solution'
to
the problem of weeds competing with desired plants.

Weed can regrow from root, weed can grow from seed... But there is
mulch to suppress there grow. A transplat in polythene bag provide
a
good start. By the time weed push through the mulch, the transplant
already establish, can compete better than weed. Without weeding,
the
harvest are satisfactory. Of course I can weeding and make it look
like a normal garden, but just don't feel the need. I prefer spend
my
resource on other thing.

I don't know your methods, but around here, mulch has to be
regularly
re-applied to surpress weeds. And my experience is that desired
plants
that have to compete with weeds for water (in short supply at some
times of year) do poorly, no matter how vigorously they start out.

I'm refer to annual crop, vegetable..., those just take a few months
to mature. For perenial, mulch of course should be re-applied. There
is something else you had to do to make this work, but I can assure
you that it's working at my land.

Sorry! I'm in a rush, will not check my spelling or wording at all.

Regards,
Wong

--
Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

Hi Frogleg,

I can't find it in my notes, I think has been deleted, so I will reply
base on what I remember.

But if you were willing to wait "a long time," how would mulch make
it
down to the soil that needs to be improved?

Direct way as a night crawler(earthworm) pull the mulch down to the
tunnel.

Indirect way as a slug eating the mulch, and die in a tunnel due to
old age.

I have a lot of worms in
my compost, but the clay ground underneath is still...clay.

If the worms in the compost do not want to move down to your clay
soil, this is what you get.

It can be they don't like your soil(low PH, water log...), or they
don't have the need(looking for shelter, water...) to do it.

If you plant some deep root type plant on your compost after it's
cured, you will see the soil are changing.

But you have to make sure the plant will bear with your soil. There is
some plant that can live in a low PH, water log soil.

Most weed are succulent, the organic matter in a form(starch...)
that
will not last long.

Maybe in Malaysia. Weeds here are pretty much regular ol' plants,
grasses, and vines.

Succulent just a generic indicator of lack of lignin, search in Google
to find up the % of lignin in your *regular ol' plants,
grasses, and vines*.

I don't know your methods, but around here, mulch has to be
regularly
re-applied to surpress weeds. And my experience is that desired
plants
that have to compete with weeds for water (in short supply at some
times of year) do poorly, no matter how vigorously they start out.

When transplant, I will use a hand held string treamer to mow(?) dow
the weed, make a hole, plant the transplant. Add more mulch to about
6 inches thick. Normally people recommend 3 inches, but I'm using
thick mulch to avoid the need to add mulch for annual plant.

For perenial, I will use string treamer to mow dow the weed where it
can be. For weed around perenial, I use sickle to mow(?) it. After
that I reapply mulch to 6 inches deep. I do not pull the weed because
some weed are hard to pull and weed pulling will hurt perenial feeder
root.

One of the reason of I prefer man power than large machinary are this
will create job and reduce the crime cause by unemployment.

Regards,
Wong

--
Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

Hi Frogleg,

As I understand it, no-till means no weed-clearing

For my understanding, it's a minimal soil disturbance and high residue
practice. I do organic no-till, and do mow weed and leave the residue
there.

As I understand it, no-till means no weed-clearing, with planting or
seeding accomplished by slits or holes poked through existing
organing
matter. I fail to understand how this reduces weeds.

To reduce chance of being eliminated by disaster(e.g fire), seeds will
not emerge at the sametime. Seeds deposit in soil are called seed
bank.

Most of small seeds need to be near/on soil surface to emerge.
Tillage do bring them to the soil surface, reduce tillage do reduce
the existing seeds of seed bank being bring up to soil surface.

High residue of plant(organic matter) insulate the new seeds carry by
wind from reaching the soil.

Some plant residue(mostly cereal) do release chemical that inhibit
seed emergent.

Some seeds need heat or light to emerge, high residue do isolate it.

Under high residue, clitters are active and eating seeds.

....

I also understand
that crop yields are *lower* with no-till, but one feels so good
about
being 'green' that it doesn't matter.

After the soil had been build up, no-till can acheive higher output
with same input compare to conventional tillage system.

To build up my soil fast, I mixed rice hull up to four foot deep in my
soil with one to one ratio.

I am also curious how no-till produces "better soil." It certainly
can
result in fields where topsoil isn't blown or carried away in
rainwater runoff, but I fail to see how that improves soil quality.

Clitter in soil will transport nutrient around from where it's
abundent to where it's lack of, and create tunnel that facilitate air
and water moving, root extend easier by follow these tunnel. Clitter
need organic matter for energy, tillage do cause lost of organic
matter in soil and break up those tunnel.

Tillage also break fungus that provide phosphorus to plant.

....

That said, its foolish not to practice it on a home level as it is
a
better practice in every facet and the results will show this.
Better
yeilds, less pests, less weeds, less water. All things every
gardener
lusts for on a daily basis.

Please elaborate on "better practice in every facet." Give me a few
facets.

For home garden, I will mow weed and left it there, on top of the weed
residue add some more organic matter. Make a hole put in my
transplant.

In this way:
Soil life and the tunnel created by them will not be disturb.

Meat eatting critter will eat those plant eatting critter, pesticide
are not needed. Critter in soil will eat weed seeds, herbicide are not
needed. Harmful lifeform(e.g fungus) to plant will be suppress either
eaten by or compete resource with other lifeform, other (xxx)icide are
not needed.

No hand tillage mean reduce back pain.

....

Regards,
Wong

--
Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m