I've recently come into possession of a Honda Harmony FG100
mini-tiller. It's perfect for my 20 x 25 vegetable garden, and I've
tilled the whole thing up very nicely. It makes a beautiful tilth.

My question is this: When I see other people's gardens, they have
these wonderful rows with the vegetables on sort of long raised
mounds, and depressed paths between the rows. How the heck do they
get that? Do you have to rake after tilling? Or is there some
technique that I'm not aware of? When I till, the dirt just goes
everywhere.

-- Mike

You take the soil from the path and put it into the bed with a shovel.
Manual labor. The best way to do it would be to lay out your garden and
then simply do this one time and then in subsequent years you dont till
the whole garden just the beds. There is no need to waste time, fuel,
effort on the paths so build them once and then forget about them.

The next step would be to scrap the tiller all together and move towards
no till gardening and then you will really be building some serious
soil. You will never walk in the beds, mulch them heavily, and never
till again.

The tiller will still be handy for other things but at that point dont
take it in the garden any longer as it ruins your hard work.

Good Luck,
Mark

Mike wrote:
I've recently come into possession of a Honda Harmony FG100
mini-tiller. It's perfect for my 20 x 25 vegetable garden, and I've
tilled the whole thing up very nicely. It makes a beautiful tilth.

My question is this: When I see other people's gardens, they have
these wonderful rows with the vegetables on sort of long raised
mounds, and depressed paths between the rows. How the heck do they
get that? Do you have to rake after tilling? Or is there some
technique that I'm not aware of? When I till, the dirt just goes
everywhere.

-- Mike

On 3 May 2004 17:06:12 -0700, (Mike) wrote:

I've recently come into possession of a Honda Harmony FG100
mini-tiller. It's perfect for my 20 x 25 vegetable garden, and I've
tilled the whole thing up very nicely. It makes a beautiful tilth.

My question is this: When I see other people's gardens, they have
these wonderful rows with the vegetables on sort of long raised
mounds, and depressed paths between the rows. How the heck do they
get that? Do you have to rake after tilling? Or is there some
technique that I'm not aware of? When I till, the dirt just goes
everywhere.

You gotta fritz around with your dirt. Rake some up into mouds or
rows; just walking around will compress the dirt into 'paths'. A
tiller, as you've discovered, just tills. You have to supply the
finishing work.

Tilling with a Mantis, Honda, Sears or any other mini-tiller is about the
second worst thing you can do as a gardener. The soil is actually pulverized
into the finest particles of the soil possible.
This will inhibit any and all possibilities of existing life forms of
earthworms and night crawlers to exist in the soil. Additionally, the soil
will compact to concrete conditions after the first rain!
"Frogleg" wrote in message
...
On 3 May 2004 17:06:12 -0700, (Mike) wrote:

I've recently come into possession of a Honda Harmony FG100
mini-tiller. It's perfect for my 20 x 25 vegetable garden, and I've
tilled the whole thing up very nicely. It makes a beautiful tilth.

My question is this: When I see other people's gardens, they have
these wonderful rows with the vegetables on sort of long raised
mounds, and depressed paths between the rows. How the heck do they
get that? Do you have to rake after tilling? Or is there some
technique that I'm not aware of? When I till, the dirt just goes
everywhere.

You gotta fritz around with your dirt. Rake some up into mouds or
rows; just walking around will compress the dirt into 'paths'. A
tiller, as you've discovered, just tills. You have to supply the
finishing work.

Hi Allonia,

Additionally, the soil
will compact to concrete conditions after the first rain!

It do create a crusting after the rain, if the soil does not cover
with mulch after till. But to mix in organic matter for a fast cure of
bad soil type, I do think rototill are good for it.

My soil are black heavy clay soil. The black color not due to high
organic, but because of lack of oxygen. People here use it to make
brick. It's low PH and high iron, a fern are dominating here. After a
rain, water can stay there for days.

For each inch of my soil, I till in one inch of rice hull, up to four
foot deep. After the tilling complete, I transplant my plant on it,
and cover with mulch. This work for me. Without doing in this ways,
all ground cover I tried before will not survive.

Regards,
Wong

"Allonia" wrote in message Tilling with a Mantis, Honda, Sears or any other
mini-tiller is about the
second worst thing you can do as a gardener. The soil is actually
pulverized
into the finest particles of the soil possible.
This will inhibit any and all possibilities of existing life forms of
earthworms and night crawlers to exist in the soil. Additionally, the soil
will compact to concrete conditions after the first rain!

What are you taking about????

I have never had any problems with the soil getting compacted after rains of
any type.If what you are saying is true than tell me why the semi-organic
farmer neighbor of mine rototills his fields than plants his
carrots/parsnips and beets in the same field.When he harvests the soil is
not compacted even after a few mopnths of rain or irrigation.
I'm a para with a large garden that has permanent isles/rows. My rows are
about 20"s wide that are rototilled yearly to blend in the compost.I have no
compaction occurring in my garden rows at all.

Frogleg
Another method to make raised beds are get your lumber and construct your
large form for the raised bed.Than dig out the same amount of soil that the
sides of the raised bed are(say you used 10inch wide boards or the sides are
that high)leaving a few inches for the sides to rest on.Than fill in with
some old hay or other compost or even new balled hay where you removed the
soil.Pack this filler and replace the removed soil.You will need to get
additional soil to fill up the raised bed completly.
There you go, you now have a raised bed.
Or as other poster said rake up and mound the soil to have a freeform
raised bed.

Jerome

JRYezierski wrote:
"Allonia" wrote in message Tilling with a Mantis, Honda, Sears or any other
mini-tiller is about the

second worst thing you can do as a gardener. The soil is actually

pulverized

into the finest particles of the soil possible.
This will inhibit any and all possibilities of existing life forms of
earthworms and night crawlers to exist in the soil. Additionally, the soil
will compact to concrete conditions after the first rain!


What are you taking about????

What the poster was talking about is over tilling and especially with
high speed sharp tined tillers. You basically create powder which is not
the best thing for gardening. You can do some reading about "til pan"
and no till gardening and learn about the negatives of tilling. Many
will argue that tillers have no place in the garden however this isnt
always true in the real world. We are small scale organic farmers and in
many cases we use 3PT hitch tillers on our tractors however we are very
careful not to over till.
As you state, one of the best places for use of a tiller is when you
are starting from very poor ground or grass. They are almost essential
in the first couple years unless you can employ countless quantities of
low wage or slave labor. However, if you have the ability to build your
soil heavily in those first couple years the tiller should never see
that soil again once its built up. Of course if you have the time,
energy, and manpower, you can do away with the tiller from the start but
in the real world when you are taking a piece of ground from say red
clay covered with grass to a viable piece of land to grow on, a tiller
is almost a must. This goes for most poor soils. However, tilling in
general is not the best option if it can be avoided. It can be, but on
larger scales it gets very very difficult.

Mark

I have never had any problems with the soil getting compacted after rains of
any type.If what you are saying is true than tell me why the semi-organic
farmer neighbor of mine rototills his fields than plants his
carrots/parsnips and beets in the same field.When he harvests the soil is
not compacted even after a few mopnths of rain or irrigation.
I'm a para with a large garden that has permanent isles/rows. My rows are
about 20"s wide that are rototilled yearly to blend in the compost.I have no
compaction occurring in my garden rows at all.

Frogleg
Another method to make raised beds are get your lumber and construct your
large form for the raised bed.Than dig out the same amount of soil that the
sides of the raised bed are(say you used 10inch wide boards or the sides are
that high)leaving a few inches for the sides to rest on.Than fill in with
some old hay or other compost or even new balled hay where you removed the
soil.Pack this filler and replace the removed soil.You will need to get
additional soil to fill up the raised bed completly.
There you go, you now have a raised bed.
Or as other poster said rake up and mound the soil to have a freeform
raised bed.

Jerome

On Mon, 10 May 2004 10:26:14 -0500, "JRYezierski"
wrote:


"Allonia" wrote
Tilling with a Mantis, Honda, Sears or any other
mini-tiller is about the
second worst thing you can do as a gardener. The soil is actually
pulverized
into the finest particles of the soil possible.
This will inhibit any and all possibilities of existing life forms of
earthworms and night crawlers to exist in the soil. Additionally, the soil
will compact to concrete conditions after the first rain!

What are you taking about????

I have never had any problems with the soil getting compacted after rains of
any type.

I am waiting for some organic purist to declare all agriculture is
damaging to the ecosystem, and we should become gatherers, living on
such roots and shoots as 'nature' provides.

"No till" farming has benefits mostly related to reducing soil
erosion. This is scarcely a problem in a home garden plot.

Frogleg wrote in message . ..
On Mon, 10 May 2004 10:26:14 -0500, "JRYezierski"
wrote:

I am waiting for some organic purist to declare all agriculture is
damaging to the ecosystem, and we should become gatherers, living on
such roots and shoots as 'nature' provides.

"No till" farming has benefits mostly related to reducing soil
erosion. This is scarcely a problem in a home garden plot.

This of course is incorrect. No-till substantially helps with weed
reduction, by leaving buried seeds buried, and soil structure
improvement (if coupled with organic mulch). No tiller will ever
produce a soil as fine as earthworms can. Minor gains are also to be
had from improved soil fertility, again thanks to the eartworms.

Frogleg wrote:

I am waiting for some organic purist to declare all agriculture is
damaging to the ecosystem, and we should become gatherers, living on
such roots and shoots as 'nature' provides.

"No till" farming has benefits mostly related to reducing soil
erosion. This is scarcely a problem in a home garden plot.

I doubt no-till will ever be the norm but it is far more than an erosion
control and makes complete sense if you can employ it. As I stated
however this can be hard to do on a massive scale. The mere amount of
organic mulch that would be needed on large commercial farms would be
overwhelming in generation and application. No-till does produce far
better soil and therefore growing conditions for crops however I dont
think the increased yeilds of no-till practices would offset the expense
(both dollars and environmental) of going no-till on mass.

That said, its foolish not to practice it on a home level as it is a
better practice in every facet and the results will show this. Better
yeilds, less pests, less weeds, less water. All things every gardener
lusts for on a daily basis.

Mark

On Wed, 12 May 2004 19:40:48 GMT, Mark & Shauna wrote:

Frogleg wrote:

I am waiting for some organic purist to declare all agriculture is
damaging to the ecosystem, and we should become gatherers, living on
such roots and shoots as 'nature' provides.

"No till" farming has benefits mostly related to reducing soil
erosion. This is scarcely a problem in a home garden plot.

I doubt no-till will ever be the norm but it is far more than an erosion
control and makes complete sense if you can employ it. As I stated
however this can be hard to do on a massive scale. The mere amount of
organic mulch that would be needed on large commercial farms would be
overwhelming in generation and application. No-till does produce far
better soil and therefore growing conditions for crops however I dont
think the increased yeilds of no-till practices would offset the expense
(both dollars and environmental) of going no-till on mass.

I didn't say erosion control was the *only* presumed benefit of
no-till farming. Soil compaction is reduced by not using heavy
machinery in the fields. Fossil fuel is saved and pollution avoided by
not using heavy machinery in the fields. (I wonder if harvest is by
hand.)

As I understand it, no-till means no weed-clearing, with planting or
seeding accomplished by slits or holes poked through existing organing
matter. I fail to understand how this reduces weeds. I also understand
that crop yields are *lower* with no-till, but one feels so good about
being 'green' that it doesn't matter.

I am also curious how no-till produces "better soil." It certainly can
result in fields where topsoil isn't blown or carried away in
rainwater runoff, but I fail to see how that improves soil quality.

That said, its foolish not to practice it on a home level as it is a
better practice in every facet and the results will show this. Better
yeilds, less pests, less weeds, less water. All things every gardener
lusts for on a daily basis.

Please elaborate on "better practice in every facet." Give me a few
facets.

Here is a good link for you to read. It was 6th on the list from Google
under "no till gardening".

Mark

Frogleg wrote:

On Wed, 12 May 2004 19:40:48 GMT, Mark & Shauna wrote:


Frogleg wrote:


I am waiting for some organic purist to declare all agriculture is
damaging to the ecosystem, and we should become gatherers, living on
such roots and shoots as 'nature' provides.

"No till" farming has benefits mostly related to reducing soil
erosion. This is scarcely a problem in a home garden plot.

I doubt no-till will ever be the norm but it is far more than an erosion
control and makes complete sense if you can employ it. As I stated
however this can be hard to do on a massive scale. The mere amount of
organic mulch that would be needed on large commercial farms would be
overwhelming in generation and application. No-till does produce far
better soil and therefore growing conditions for crops however I dont
think the increased yeilds of no-till practices would offset the expense
(both dollars and environmental) of going no-till on mass.


I didn't say erosion control was the *only* presumed benefit of
no-till farming. Soil compaction is reduced by not using heavy
machinery in the fields. Fossil fuel is saved and pollution avoided by
not using heavy machinery in the fields. (I wonder if harvest is by
hand.)

As I understand it, no-till means no weed-clearing, with planting or
seeding accomplished by slits or holes poked through existing organing
matter. I fail to understand how this reduces weeds. I also understand
that crop yields are *lower* with no-till, but one feels so good about
being 'green' that it doesn't matter.

I am also curious how no-till produces "better soil." It certainly can
result in fields where topsoil isn't blown or carried away in
rainwater runoff, but I fail to see how that improves soil quality.

That said, its foolish not to practice it on a home level as it is a
better practice in every facet and the results will show this. Better
yeilds, less pests, less weeds, less water. All things every gardener
lusts for on a daily basis.


Please elaborate on "better practice in every facet." Give me a few
facets.

On Fri, 14 May 2004 08:21:57 +0800, "nswong"
wrote:


As I understand it, no-till means no weed-clearing

For my understanding, it's a minimal soil disturbance and high residue
practice. I do organic no-till, and do mow weed and leave the residue
there.

As I understand it, no-till means no weed-clearing, with planting or
seeding accomplished by slits or holes poked through existing
organic
matter. I fail to understand how this reduces weeds.

To reduce chance of being eliminated by disaster(e.g fire), seeds will
not emerge at the sametime. Seeds deposit in soil are called seed
bank.

Soil here has enough in the bank to retire! :-)

I also understand
that crop yields are *lower* with no-till, but one feels so good
about
being 'green' that it doesn't matter.

After the soil had been build up, no-till can acheive higher output
with same input compare to conventional tillage system.

Many gardeners/famers don't have time to wait.

To build up my soil fast, I mixed rice hull up to four foot deep in my
soil with one to one ratio.

Mixed? So no-till needs a boost? Don't mean to be snippy, but this is
part of my point. Improving soil almost always means introducing
organic matter. Unless "no-till" has some very tricky definitions,
some sort of soil disturbance is necessary to accomplish this.
'Topsoil' is just that -- the top layer of decaying plant matter with
a little dirt. Around here, the soil is primarily clay and 'topsoil'
is a very thin 'frosting' on the ground. Suitable for weeds and wild
grasses in the upper level, and trees with tough, penetrating root
systems. *Not* suitable for most food crops.

I am also curious how no-till produces "better soil." It certainly
can
result in fields where topsoil isn't blown or carried away in
rainwater runoff, but I fail to see how that improves soil quality.

Clitter in soil will transport nutrient around from where it's
abundent to where it's lack of, and create tunnel that facilitate air
and water moving, root extend easier by follow these tunnel. Clitter
need organic matter for energy, tillage do cause lost of organic
matter in soil and break up those tunnel.

I do not know what 'clitter' is. Tilling certainly kills plants
(weeds) and buries the remains, but that means *more* organic matter
in the soil

For home garden, I will mow weed and left it there, on top of the weed
residue add some more organic matter. Make a hole put in my
transplant.

I have nothing against mulch. However, if the mown weeds contain seeds
or parts that easily root, I don't see how this is any 'solution' to
the problem of weeds competing with desired plants.

In this way:
Soil life and the tunnel created by them will not be disturb.

Meat eatting critter will eat those plant eatting critter, pesticide
are not needed. Critter in soil will eat weed seeds, herbicide are not
needed. Harmful lifeform(e.g fungus) to plant will be suppress either
eaten by or compete resource with other lifeform, other (xxx)icide are
not needed.

This is a lovely plan. However, it rarely happens in real life unless
the meat-eating critter gets out there and picks the beetles off the
tomato plants. And this has little to do with whether or not to till a
garden.

No hand tillage mean reduce back pain.

Well now, that *is* a happy thought. :-)

Hi Frogleg,

There is no such thing of best approach to solve a problem in all
short of situation/environment, what I will do are choose the approach
that come out the best result with resource available for me.

No-till system got it weakness, but other system do so. So I'm not a
purist of any system. I just pick one that is best for the job on
hand.

Many gardeners/famers don't have time to wait.

In a bussiness, if we got time and money, we can go to long term
investment. If not, do other way.

In my case, I prepare my land for retirement and for experimental
purpose.

For retirement, I ask myself what should I do on this land now to give
me a comfortable life, when I'm old, no income, no one to depend on.
So I plan it for not depend of any input from outside, included man
power.

For experiment to commerciallise, I need to try out a way that can
work for my targeted market segment. Up to now, for what I know,
organic no-till do work best for my plan.

Improving soil almost always means introducing
organic matter. Unless "no-till" has some very tricky definitions,
some sort of soil disturbance is necessary to accomplish this.

Dead body of life form(plant root, earthworm, fungus...) in soil are
organic matter, this does not till in by man. For soil contain high
organic matter, tillage can avoided by the first day. For those soil
void of organic matter, planting cover crop and mulch can work, but do
take long time. So I choose to till in organic matter before
implement no-till system.

Around here, the soil is primarily clay and 'topsoil'
is a very thin 'frosting' on the ground. Suitable for weeds and wild
grasses in the upper level, and trees with tough, penetrating root
systems. *Not* suitable for most food crops.

My soil are worse, when the time I just come here, most part of my
land no tree can found, and except a fern, no other weed can survive.
By now, it's a good land for agriculture.

I do not know what 'clitter' is.

Thanks for you pointing out, it should be critter(creature).

Tilling certainly kills plants
(weeds) and buries the remains, but that means *more* organic matter
in the soil

Most weed are succulent, the organic matter in a form(starch...) that
will not last long. Tillage do cause lost of those(humus...) that can
last long. So most of the time, organic matter introduce by tillage
does not compensate the lost cause by it. In my case, I till in a lot
of lignin(rice hull), and lost non(soil void of organic matter).

For home garden, I will mow weed and left it there, on top of the
weed
residue add some more organic matter. Make a hole put in my
transplant.

I have nothing against mulch. However, if the mown weeds contain
seeds
or parts that easily root, I don't see how this is any 'solution' to
the problem of weeds competing with desired plants.

Weed can regrow from root, weed can grow from seed... But there is
mulch to suppress there grow. A transplat in polythene bag provide a
good start. By the time weed push through the mulch, the transplant
already establish, can compete better than weed. Without weeding, the
harvest are satisfactory. Of course I can weeding and make it look
like a normal garden, but just don't feel the need. I prefer spend my
resource on other thing.

This is a lovely plan. However, it rarely happens in real life
unless
the meat-eating critter gets out there and picks the beetles off the
tomato plants. And this has little to do with whether or not to till
a
garden.

An organic no-till land do support more life form than land under
other system. This will support those predator when there is no pest
available, some predator do eat beetles(bird, preying mantis,
frog...). I use *meat-eating critter* instead of predator are because
I don't know how to spell predator and lazy to look up in dictionary.

No hand tillage mean reduce back pain.

Well now, that *is* a happy thought. :-)

Just imagine you are an old mand now. What do you choose, tilling soil
or mulching with your *old* man power? ;-)

I'm a practical guy, result oriented. Most of the time just do
practical thing use the proven, tested method that will bring good
result. Will explore different approach before stick to one way...
( self praise g )

Cheers,
Wong

--
Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

On Fri, 14 May 2004 20:27:56 +0800, "nswong"
wrote:

There is no such thing of best approach to solve a problem in all
short of situation/environment, what I will do are choose the approach
that come out the best result with resource available for me.

I agree completely.

Many gardeners/famers don't have time to wait.

In a bussiness, if we got time and money, we can go to long term
investment. If not, do other way.

I agree with this also.


In my case, I prepare my land for retirement and for experimental
purpose.

Improving soil almost always means introducing
organic matter. Unless "no-till" has some very tricky definitions,
some sort of soil disturbance is necessary to accomplish this.

Dead body of life form(plant root, earthworm, fungus...) in soil are
organic matter, this does not till in by man. For soil contain high
organic matter, tillage can avoided by the first day. For those soil
void of organic matter, planting cover crop and mulch can work, but do
take long time. So I choose to till in organic matter before
implement no-till system.

But if you were willing to wait "a long time," how would mulch make it
down to the soil that needs to be improved? I have a lot of worms in
my compost, but the clay ground underneath is still...clay.

Tilling certainly kills plants
(weeds) and buries the remains, but that means *more* organic matter
in the soil

Most weed are succulent, the organic matter in a form(starch...) that
will not last long.

Maybe in Malaysia. Weeds here are pretty much regular ol' plants,
grasses, and vines.

Tillage do cause lost of those(humus...) that can
last long. So most of the time, organic matter introduce by tillage
does not compensate the lost cause by it. In my case, I till in a lot
of lignin(rice hull), and lost non(soil void of organic matter).

How does tilling reduce organic matter?

I have nothing against mulch. However, if the mown weeds contain
seeds
or parts that easily root, I don't see how this is any 'solution' to
the problem of weeds competing with desired plants.

Weed can regrow from root, weed can grow from seed... But there is
mulch to suppress there grow. A transplat in polythene bag provide a
good start. By the time weed push through the mulch, the transplant
already establish, can compete better than weed. Without weeding, the
harvest are satisfactory. Of course I can weeding and make it look
like a normal garden, but just don't feel the need. I prefer spend my
resource on other thing.

I don't know your methods, but around here, mulch has to be regularly
re-applied to surpress weeds. And my experience is that desired plants
that have to compete with weeds for water (in short supply at some
times of year) do poorly, no matter how vigorously they start out.