Dave Allyn wrote in message . ..
Hey all, quick question for you. I have been given the option of
purchaing a lot next to me where a house burned down about 6mo ago.
I've always wanted a large garden, and orchard, and this seems like
the place to do it. The problem is, when they dug out the old house,
they filled the 12foot deep hole with solid clay. Is there anyway,
short of re-diggingthe hole and filling with good dirt, to reclaim
this land? would tilling compost into it do any good? Is there
something I can mix into the clay to get it to be better?


It will be wonderful to have a serious orchard and large garden.
I have two examples of clay having been tamed by large amounts of
organics, plus certain cover crops which can break soil, plus a few
years time.

For the large amounts, I suggest getting several loads of wood chips,
about 8 inches over the entire property. Top dress, don't dig in. They
will disappear in a few years and will provide most of the nutrients
fruit trees need (low N, but large amounts of everything else). The
earthworms that will turn them in will churn many times the volume of
the chips in clay. In time you may want to add extra fertilizer, and
adjust pH and N content, though fruit trees like it somewhat acid and
they prefer the nutrient profile that wood chips provide - so you may
not need any amendment (grapes are one of several exceptions). Wood
chips are cost-free, weed-free and fertilize. Their drawback is that
they will act more slowly than leaves or manure, and fertilize less
than manure, but all things considered (specially the tree company
taking the chips directly to your place free) wood chips can't be beat
for massive mulching of perennials.

For the cover crops, which you can plant for a few years as your trees
develop, I suggest potatoes, favas, mache, and chicories for the
edibles, and if you want just a green manure, a number of green
manures will also break the soil efficiently. These are plants that
are particularly agressive at penetrating clay, leaving all sorts of
dug-in organic matter, in small and big clumps, that will further
entice earthworms, provide drainage, etc.. favas and other legume
cover crops will provide N as well. There are other crops, like
carrots or beets, which also break the soil, but the final product is
not particularly attractive (poor carrots). I found chicories to be
incredibly aggressive in a patch filled with one foot of clay on sand
in my lawn (I used the seeds from a few radicchio plants gone to
seed), sending a thick taproot down several feet (which you don't eat
but is a bitch to uproot), very much like dandelions, but a much
thicker root. The patch is now (five years later) much nicer, I would
go as far as calling it loamy.

For the time, Rome was not built in a day. I have had for seven years
a jostaberry plant (which prefers heavy soil), in sandy soil, at the
fence with my neighbor. The neighbor soil is all grey clay (he filled
the yard for the horses). In time the soil under the jostaberry has
become much heavier and if you were to see that spreading bush you
would never guess that it was a pitiful thing five years ago. In time,
where you have plant or mulch cover, the soil will mix vertically a
lot but also laterally somewhat.

In article ,
simy1 wrote:
Dave Allyn wrote in message . ..
Hey all, quick question for you. I have been given the option of
purchaing a lot next to me where a house burned down about 6mo ago.
I've always wanted a large garden, and orchard, and this seems like
the place to do it. The problem is, when they dug out the old house,
they filled the 12foot deep hole with solid clay. Is there anyway,
short of re-diggingthe hole and filling with good dirt, to reclaim
this land? would tilling compost into it do any good? Is there
something I can mix into the clay to get it to be better?


It will be wonderful to have a serious orchard and large garden.
I have two examples of clay having been tamed by large amounts of
organics, plus certain cover crops which can break soil, plus a few
years time.

For the large amounts, I suggest getting several loads of wood chips,
about 8 inches over the entire property. Top dress, don't dig in. They
will disappear in a few years and will provide most of the nutrients
fruit trees need (low N, but large amounts of everything else). The
earthworms that will turn them in will churn many times the volume of
the chips in clay. In time you may want to add extra fertilizer, and
adjust pH and N content, though fruit trees like it somewhat acid and
they prefer the nutrient profile that wood chips provide - so you may
not need any amendment (grapes are one of several exceptions). Wood
chips are cost-free, weed-free and fertilize. Their drawback is that
they will act more slowly than leaves or manure, and fertilize less
than manure, but all things considered (specially the tree company
taking the chips directly to your place free) wood chips can't be beat
for massive mulching of perennials.

For the cover crops, which you can plant for a few years as your trees
develop, I suggest potatoes, favas, mache, and chicories for the
edibles, and if you want just a green manure, a number of green
manures will also break the soil efficiently. These are plants that
are particularly agressive at penetrating clay, leaving all sorts of
dug-in organic matter, in small and big clumps, that will further
entice earthworms, provide drainage, etc.. favas and other legume
cover crops will provide N as well. There are other crops, like
carrots or beets, which also break the soil, but the final product is
not particularly attractive (poor carrots). I found chicories to be
incredibly aggressive in a patch filled with one foot of clay on sand
in my lawn (I used the seeds from a few radicchio plants gone to
seed), sending a thick taproot down several feet (which you don't eat
but is a bitch to uproot), very much like dandelions, but a much
thicker root. The patch is now (five years later) much nicer, I would
go as far as calling it loamy.

For the time, Rome was not built in a day. I have had for seven years
a jostaberry plant (which prefers heavy soil), in sandy soil, at the
fence with my neighbor. The neighbor soil is all grey clay (he filled
the yard for the horses). In time the soil under the jostaberry has
become much heavier and if you were to see that spreading bush you
would never guess that it was a pitiful thing five years ago. In time,
where you have plant or mulch cover, the soil will mix vertically a
lot but also laterally somewhat.


I just looked for anything like "chicories" on the Burpee website
and don't see anything like it. WHat should I look for ?


--
Al Dykes
-----------
adykes at p a n i x . c o m

"Al Dykes" wrote:
I just looked for anything like "chicories" on the Burpee
website and don't see anything like it. WHat should I look
for ?
I didn't know what a chicory was either. I still don't but these
links seem to help. The dictionary.com redirects to the following
page for a definition of chicory:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=chicory

dictionary.com provides the following synonyms:
succory, endive, wild endive and curly endive.

I still don't have a clew about what those are... so I like Google.
And the search on Google returns quite a bit of information,
http://www.google.com/search?q=chicories

Hope that helps. :-)

--
Jim Carlock
http://www.microcosmotalk.com/
Post replies to the newsgroup.

simy1 wrote:
Dave Allyn wrote:
Hey all, quick question for you. I have been given the option of
purchaing a lot next to me where a house burned down about 6mo ago.
I've always wanted a large garden, and orchard, and this seems like
the place to do it. The problem is, when they dug out the old house,
they filled the 12foot deep hole with solid clay. Is there anyway,
short of re-diggingthe hole and filling with good dirt, to reclaim
this land? would tilling compost into it do any good? Is there
something I can mix into the clay to get it to be better?


It will be wonderful to have a serious orchard and large garden.
I have two examples of clay having been tamed by large amounts of
organics, plus certain cover crops which can break soil, plus a few
years time.

For the large amounts, I suggest getting several loads of wood chips,
about 8 inches over the entire property. Top dress, don't dig in. They
will disappear in a few years and will provide most of the nutrients
fruit trees need (low N, but large amounts of everything else). The
earthworms that will turn them in will churn many times the volume of
the chips in clay. In time you may want to add extra fertilizer, and
adjust pH and N content, though fruit trees like it somewhat acid and
they prefer the nutrient profile that wood chips provide - so you may
not need any amendment (grapes are one of several exceptions). Wood
chips are cost-free, weed-free and fertilize. Their drawback is that
they will act more slowly than leaves or manure, and fertilize less
than manure, but all things considered (specially the tree company
taking the chips directly to your place free) wood chips can't be beat
for massive mulching of perennials.

For the cover crops, which you can plant for a few years as your trees
develop, I suggest potatoes, favas, mache, and chicories for the
edibles, and if you want just a green manure, a number of green
manures will also break the soil efficiently. These are plants that
are particularly agressive at penetrating clay, leaving all sorts of
dug-in organic matter, in small and big clumps, that will further
entice earthworms, provide drainage, etc.. favas and other legume
cover crops will provide N as well. There are other crops, like
carrots or beets, which also break the soil, but the final product is
not particularly attractive (poor carrots). I found chicories to be
incredibly aggressive in a patch filled with one foot of clay on sand
in my lawn (I used the seeds from a few radicchio plants gone to
seed), sending a thick taproot down several feet (which you don't eat
but is a bitch to uproot), very much like dandelions, but a much
thicker root. The patch is now (five years later) much nicer, I would
go as far as calling it loamy.

For the time, Rome was not built in a day. I have had for seven years
a jostaberry plant (which prefers heavy soil), in sandy soil, at the
fence with my neighbor. The neighbor soil is all grey clay (he filled
the yard for the horses). In time the soil under the jostaberry has
become much heavier and if you were to see that spreading bush you
would never guess that it was a pitiful thing five years ago. In time,
where you have plant or mulch cover, the soil will mix vertically a
lot but also laterally somewhat.

In article ,
Jim Carlock wrote:
"Al Dykes" wrote:
I just looked for anything like "chicories" on the Burpee
website and don't see anything like it. WHat should I look
for ?
I didn't know what a chicory was either. I still don't but these
links seem to help. The dictionary.com redirects to the following
page for a definition of chicory:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=chicory

dictionary.com provides the following synonyms:
succory, endive, wild endive and curly endive.

I still don't have a clew about what those are... so I like Google.
And the search on Google returns quite a bit of information,
http://www.google.com/search?q=chicories

Hope that helps. :-)



I googled it too, anbd I figured that Burpee would have everything,
but it didn't. Another google found this, which makes it sound
like an edible wildflower.

http://www.wildgardenseed.com/wgs/ca...duct_info.php?
cPath=33&products_id=61

Isn't chickory a coffee substitute ?

--
Al Dykes
-----------
adykes at p a n i x . c o m

It's also called "Italian Dandelion"


"Al Dykes" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jim Carlock wrote:
"Al Dykes" wrote:
I just looked for anything like "chicories" on the Burpee
website and don't see anything like it. WHat should I look
for ?
I didn't know what a chicory was either. I still don't but these
links seem to help. The dictionary.com redirects to the following
page for a definition of chicory:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=chicory

dictionary.com provides the following synonyms:
succory, endive, wild endive and curly endive.

I still don't have a clew about what those are... so I like Google.
And the search on Google returns quite a bit of information,
http://www.google.com/search?q=chicories

Hope that helps. :-)



I googled it too, anbd I figured that Burpee would have everything,
but it didn't. Another google found this, which makes it sound
like an edible wildflower.

http://www.wildgardenseed.com/wgs/ca...duct_info.php?
cPath=33&products_id=61

Isn't chickory a coffee substitute ?

--
Al Dykes
-----------
adykes at p a n i x . c o m

On 13 Jul 2004 20:15:27 -0400, (Al Dykes) wrote:

(snip)
I just looked for anything like "chicories" on the Burpee website
and don't see anything like it. WHat should I look for ?

Chicory is blooming here in northern Arkansas now(been blooming for the last
month or so). It's everywhere, all along the roads, ditches, cleared fields.
Pretty blue flowers. If you try to dig some up, be aware that it has a LONG
taproot. I recently pulled one up from one of my flowerbeds and it was like
pulling up a full-grown carrot, but tougher. I was just pulling it up to get rid
of it, but on a whim decided to stick it in a pot and see what would happen. It
survived the transplant shock and is blooming again. That's one tough plant.

In article ,
Dave Allyn wrote:

Hey all, quick question for you. I have been given the option of
purchaing a lot next to me where a house burned down about 6mo ago.
I've always wanted a large garden, and orchard, and this seems like
the place to do it. The problem is, when they dug out the old house,
they filled the 12foot deep hole with solid clay. Is there anyway,
short of re-diggingthe hole and filling with good dirt, to reclaim
this land? would tilling compost into it do any good? Is there
something I can mix into the clay to get it to be better?

Thanks in advance.
dave


Build a raised bed.
You only need a foot or two of good soil, and a raised bed is easier to
care for for water and weeding imho.

All of my beds are raised as I'm on caliche and limestone...

and my gardens are fine. :-)

Good luck!

K.

--
Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

,,Cat's Haven Hobby Farm,,Katraatcenturyteldotnet,,

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...user id=katra

In article ,
(simy1) wrote:

Dave Allyn wrote in message
. ..
Hey all, quick question for you. I have been given the option of
purchaing a lot next to me where a house burned down about 6mo ago.
I've always wanted a large garden, and orchard, and this seems like
the place to do it. The problem is, when they dug out the old house,
they filled the 12foot deep hole with solid clay. Is there anyway,
short of re-diggingthe hole and filling with good dirt, to reclaim
this land? would tilling compost into it do any good? Is there
something I can mix into the clay to get it to be better?


It will be wonderful to have a serious orchard and large garden.
I have two examples of clay having been tamed by large amounts of
organics, plus certain cover crops which can break soil, plus a few
years time.

For the large amounts, I suggest getting several loads of wood chips,
about 8 inches over the entire property. Top dress, don't dig in. They
will disappear in a few years and will provide most of the nutrients
fruit trees need (low N, but large amounts of everything else). The
earthworms that will turn them in will churn many times the volume of
the chips in clay. In time you may want to add extra fertilizer, and
adjust pH and N content, though fruit trees like it somewhat acid and
they prefer the nutrient profile that wood chips provide - so you may
not need any amendment (grapes are one of several exceptions). Wood
chips are cost-free, weed-free and fertilize. Their drawback is that
they will act more slowly than leaves or manure, and fertilize less
than manure, but all things considered (specially the tree company
taking the chips directly to your place free) wood chips can't be beat
for massive mulching of perennials.

For the cover crops, which you can plant for a few years as your trees
develop, I suggest potatoes, favas, mache, and chicories for the
edibles, and if you want just a green manure, a number of green
manures will also break the soil efficiently. These are plants that
are particularly agressive at penetrating clay, leaving all sorts of
dug-in organic matter, in small and big clumps, that will further
entice earthworms, provide drainage, etc.. favas and other legume
cover crops will provide N as well. There are other crops, like
carrots or beets, which also break the soil, but the final product is
not particularly attractive (poor carrots). I found chicories to be
incredibly aggressive in a patch filled with one foot of clay on sand
in my lawn (I used the seeds from a few radicchio plants gone to
seed), sending a thick taproot down several feet (which you don't eat
but is a bitch to uproot), very much like dandelions, but a much
thicker root. The patch is now (five years later) much nicer, I would
go as far as calling it loamy.

For the time, Rome was not built in a day. I have had for seven years
a jostaberry plant (which prefers heavy soil), in sandy soil, at the
fence with my neighbor. The neighbor soil is all grey clay (he filled
the yard for the horses). In time the soil under the jostaberry has
become much heavier and if you were to see that spreading bush you
would never guess that it was a pitiful thing five years ago. In time,
where you have plant or mulch cover, the soil will mix vertically a
lot but also laterally somewhat.

And don't forget the earthworms.......

K.

--
Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

,,Cat's Haven Hobby Farm,,Katraatcenturyteldotnet,,

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...user id=katra

(Al Dykes) wrote in message ...

I just looked for anything like "chicories" on the Burpee website
and don't see anything like it. WHat should I look for ?

For that experiment (planting chicories in solid clay to see if it
could break it) I used the seeds of a wild chicory selection from
Territorial. Big plants, agggressive growers, but viable as a veggie
only if you really like bitter greens (I do, but even for me they were
borderline). I let them go to seed originally because it was
discovered that my daughter's guinea pigs loved the leaves, so I
figured I needed seeds for the future.

The chicories in the clay fill survived several mowings before being
eventually overrun by grass. I saw how deep and thick their roots were
when I tried to clear chicories from their vegetable bed the first
time. Backbreaking work, even though I have light soil in the garden.

Otherwise, look for "radicchio" or "endive". Everyone sells those. The
"dandelions" sold as veggies are chicorium spp. too. They are, in
general, easy growing, extremely cold hardy, bitter greens with a
taproot.

"Katra" wrote in message
...

All of my beds are raised as I'm on caliche and limestone...

So you're in San Antonio too? ;-)

Tyler

http://www.google.com/search?as_q=ch...rch=burpee.com
http://www.google.com/search?as_q=en...rch=burpee.com

Searching for endive turns up a bigger selection at Burpee.

--
Jim Carlock
http://www.911forthetruth.com/
Post replies to the newsgroup.

"Mary" wrote:
It's also called "Italian Dandelion"

In article ,
"Tyler Hopper" wrote:

"Katra" wrote in message
...

All of my beds are raised as I'm on caliche and limestone...

So you're in San Antonio too? ;-)

Tyler



Nearby... ;-)
San Marcos.

K.

--
Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

,,Cat's Haven Hobby Farm,,Katraatcenturyteldotnet,,

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...user id=katra

"Katra" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Tyler Hopper" wrote:

"Katra" wrote in message
...

All of my beds are raised as I'm on caliche and limestone...

So you're in San Antonio too? ;-)

Tyler



Nearby... ;-)
San Marcos.

K.

I live on the farthest north side of S.A. at the beginning of the Hill Country.
I think the deepest soil I have is about 12". Then solid limestone.

On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 01:40:17 -0500, Katra
wrote:

In article ,
Dave Allyn wrote:

Hey all, quick question for you. I have been given the option of
purchaing a lot next to me where a house burned down about 6mo ago.
I've always wanted a large garden, and orchard, and this seems like
the place to do it. The problem is, when they dug out the old house,
they filled the 12foot deep hole with solid clay. Is there anyway,
short of re-diggingthe hole and filling with good dirt, to reclaim
this land? would tilling compost into it do any good? Is there
something I can mix into the clay to get it to be better?

Thanks in advance.
dave


Build a raised bed.
You only need a foot or two of good soil, and a raised bed is easier to
care for for water and weeding imho.

I thought of that, but the area of clay is about 40 feet by 80 feet.
Raised beds would be more expensive than I wanted. Also, I was
looking for some fruit trees, and would still have to deal with the
clay below.

dave


email: dallyn_spam at yahoo dot com
please respond in this NG so others
can share your wisdom as well!

(The Watcher) wrote in message ...
On 13 Jul 2004 20:15:27 -0400, (Al Dykes) wrote:

(snip)
I just looked for anything like "chicories" on the Burpee website
and don't see anything like it. WHat should I look for ?

Chicory is blooming here in northern Arkansas now(been blooming for the last
month or so). It's everywhere, all along the roads, ditches, cleared fields.
Pretty blue flowers. If you try to dig some up, be aware that it has a LONG
taproot. I recently pulled one up from one of my flowerbeds and it was like
pulling up a full-grown carrot, but tougher. I was just pulling it up to get rid
of it, but on a whim decided to stick it in a pot and see what would happen. It
survived the transplant shock and is blooming again. That's one tough plant.

the edible varieties make the same flowers. Excellent description of
the root - it's a monster. It is really bitter to the palate until
first frost. By Christmas in Michigan it is almost sweet, and of
course you harvest the whole head (a second smaller head will emerge
in late march or so). Our Christmas salads are a joy, better than the
first brandywine when you compare the fragrant salad on the table with
the gloom outside.