How much Nitrate is healthy for both fish and plants?

In a typical freshwater setup between 5-20ppm.

"Martin A. Gross" wrote in message
...
How much Nitrate is healthy for both fish and plants?

Great! So the 10ppm i keep my aquarium about perfect. I was concerned
whether or not this amount is enough for the plants. I guess so. Thanks!

"Tasslehoff" wrote in message
u...
In a typical freshwater setup between 5-20ppm.

"Martin A. Gross" wrote in message
...
How much Nitrate is healthy for both fish and plants?

how do you guys add Nitrate to your tanks? what is the best way?

"Martin A. Gross" wrote in message
gy.com...
Great! So the 10ppm i keep my aquarium about perfect. I was concerned
whether or not this amount is enough for the plants. I guess so. Thanks!

"Tasslehoff" wrote in message
u...
In a typical freshwater setup between 5-20ppm.

"Martin A. Gross" wrote in message
...
How much Nitrate is healthy for both fish and plants?

"SlimFlem" wrote in message
.net...
how do you guys add Nitrate to your tanks? what is the best way?

You could add a few more messy fish if your not already overstocked or some
gardening/hydroponics/chemical stores might sell pottassium nitrate(KNO3)
which is pretty good.

"SlimFlem" wrote in message t.net...
how do you guys add Nitrate to your tanks? what is the best way?

KNO3, potassium nitrate. Stump remover. I use Grant's or Cooke's
brand, most hardware, garden centers and home improvement places carry
it. Cost about 4-6$.

I add it dry using 1/4 teaspoon measurements.
This will add 6.3ppm of extra NO3 and about 4ppm of K+ to 35 gallons
of tank water per 1/4 level teaspoon.
This is accurate to at least 1ppm which is more accuracy than plant
tank owners certainly need.

Depending if your other nutrients are in good shape, uptake of NO3 is
up to 4-5ppm of NO3 per day in well run tanks. Most remove about
3-5ppm.
Limited tanks or tank with less than optimal conditions will remove
less.
I add it about every 3 days or so to keep the NO3 in the 2-10ppm
range.
It's okay to run it to zero but not more than one day.
Same concept applies to PO4, and traces.


Regards,
Tom Barr

Tom,

So you supplement with PO4? If so, what is your recommendation on how to do
this-- what is your PO4 source and how much do you add. Can sudden changes
in PO4 kill fish (like Nitrate changes can)?

My tank is generally void or close to void of phosphate by design, following
the recommendations of Sears, et. al. Sounds like you disagree with their
approach.. What is you feeling about their article that proposes keep all
things in abundance except for PO4 to control algae. (Do I have their idea
right?)

-Bruce Geist
" wrote in message
om...
"SlimFlem" wrote in message
t.net...
how do you guys add Nitrate to your tanks? what is the best way?

KNO3, potassium nitrate. Stump remover. I use Grant's or Cooke's
brand, most hardware, garden centers and home improvement places carry
it. Cost about 4-6$.

I add it dry using 1/4 teaspoon measurements.
This will add 6.3ppm of extra NO3 and about 4ppm of K+ to 35 gallons
of tank water per 1/4 level teaspoon.
This is accurate to at least 1ppm which is more accuracy than plant
tank owners certainly need.

Depending if your other nutrients are in good shape, uptake of NO3 is
up to 4-5ppm of NO3 per day in well run tanks. Most remove about
3-5ppm.
Limited tanks or tank with less than optimal conditions will remove
less.
I add it about every 3 days or so to keep the NO3 in the 2-10ppm
range.
It's okay to run it to zero but not more than one day.
Same concept applies to PO4, and traces.


Regards,
Tom Barr

Bruce Geist wrote:

Tom,

So you supplement with PO4?

Yes, and always have, just did not realize it directly till folks cam
eover and test my tap water. It had 1.2ppm of orthophosphate(inorganic
plant/algae usable PO4).

If so, what is your recommendation on how to do
this-- what is your PO4 source and how much do you add. Can sudden changes
in PO4 kill fish (like Nitrate changes can)?

No. I suppose if you add 50ppm etc if may but folks have up to 5ppm
etc, no issues for fish.
I used tap water for many years, I then used KH2PO4, I have a
lifetime's supply, doesn't take much.
It's available on line at:
www.litemanu.com

Same for KNO3, K2SO4 etc.

You can also use sodium phosphate, this you can get from the drug
store, Fleet enemas are mainly PO4 based. Look on the label.

A rice grain per 20 gal/every 2-4 days should do it.
Or with the fleet enema, a drop or two every 2-4 days per 20 gallon.

Phosphoric acid also works, H3PO4 etc.

My tank is generally void or close to void of phosphate by design, following
the recommendations of Sears, et. al. Sounds like you disagree with their
approach.

No, not really. Their notion of adding salts like KNO3, K2SO4 is well
founded to suit the plants. I would not have been able to get to the
level where I am at without some of the same ideas. Their notion that
PO4 is the cause of algae blooms is incorrect though. But if you re
read the article, you'll find they don't say absent PO4, just low.
Absent is bad and they are well aware of that.
It's not that I disagree in an opinion, I know it's incorrect to say
adding PO4 to a planted tank with CO2, light and fully planted causes
algae. I can and have proved that again and again for many years.

Another issue is the levels they choose where close but I tweaked them
some.

I add more iron, add PO4, and more K and more CO2 and the lighting was
rather low on their tanks, about 1/2 what it is for most tanks these
days with PC lighting etc. That means more energy and growth and tanks
that are often depleated of nutrients.

By usiung higher lighting, I found the nutrients that where consumed
rapidly by the plants, With less light, it's hard to see these uptake
rates etc, and when you add PO4, the NO3 uptake , CO2 uptake etc etc
also increases.

What is you feeling about their article that proposes keep all
things in abundance except for PO4 to control algae. (Do I have their idea
right?)

Yes, you do. During that time, that was the prevailing theory and was
en vogue. Things change.

I do find it suprising that Dupla et al, proscribed to this notion and
made statements in their book(and other folks) that PO4 causes algae
without testing if it was true or not.
It's not a difficult experiment, most any plant keeper can do this and
see for themselves.

Adding too much of any nutrient can destablize a system and thre same
can be said for not adding ENOUGH of a nutrient.

Folks traditionally assumed starving algae was a good idea. But
healthy plant growth is the goal. You do not have to starve algae to
get rid of it. So the the focus should be giving what's best for the
plants. The algae settles down and is no longer an issue if folks do
this.

I've been able to turn around any tank, with any algae is 2-3 weeks or
less working with that simple philosophy.
That's a big statement, but I have tried it with every species of
algae and many, many tanks.

You try it. Then you tell me what you think.
Watch the tank for the first few days and measure the NO3.
Note the plant's color, pearling and other plant features and algae.

Regards,
Tom Barr


-Bruce Geist

Tom,

Great information in this post.. I will try out your suggestions.

You know, I saw someone else on this newsgroup suggest using a Fleet Enema
to dose PO4 because it was easier than another way a contributor had
suggested to dose PO4. I thought it rather crude humor-- ha! I am
flabbergasted to learn that this is a real source for PO4! You learn
something new everyday, as they say.

I am intrigued to try the PO4 dosing strategy. I very much appreciate you
taking the time to post this. Thank you!

-Bruce Geist

" wrote in message
om...
Bruce Geist wrote:

Tom,

So you supplement with PO4?

Yes, and always have, just did not realize it directly till folks cam
eover and test my tap water. It had 1.2ppm of orthophosphate(inorganic
plant/algae usable PO4).

If so, what is your recommendation on how to do
this-- what is your PO4 source and how much do you add. Can sudden
changes
in PO4 kill fish (like Nitrate changes can)?

No. I suppose if you add 50ppm etc if may but folks have up to 5ppm
etc, no issues for fish.
I used tap water for many years, I then used KH2PO4, I have a
lifetime's supply, doesn't take much.
It's available on line at:
www.litemanu.com

Same for KNO3, K2SO4 etc.

You can also use sodium phosphate, this you can get from the drug
store, Fleet enemas are mainly PO4 based. Look on the label.

A rice grain per 20 gal/every 2-4 days should do it.
Or with the fleet enema, a drop or two every 2-4 days per 20 gallon.

Phosphoric acid also works, H3PO4 etc.

My tank is generally void or close to void of phosphate by design,
following
the recommendations of Sears, et. al. Sounds like you disagree with
their
approach.

No, not really. Their notion of adding salts like KNO3, K2SO4 is well
founded to suit the plants. I would not have been able to get to the
level where I am at without some of the same ideas. Their notion that
PO4 is the cause of algae blooms is incorrect though. But if you re
read the article, you'll find they don't say absent PO4, just low.
Absent is bad and they are well aware of that.
It's not that I disagree in an opinion, I know it's incorrect to say
adding PO4 to a planted tank with CO2, light and fully planted causes
algae. I can and have proved that again and again for many years.

Another issue is the levels they choose where close but I tweaked them
some.

I add more iron, add PO4, and more K and more CO2 and the lighting was
rather low on their tanks, about 1/2 what it is for most tanks these
days with PC lighting etc. That means more energy and growth and tanks
that are often depleated of nutrients.

By usiung higher lighting, I found the nutrients that where consumed
rapidly by the plants, With less light, it's hard to see these uptake
rates etc, and when you add PO4, the NO3 uptake , CO2 uptake etc etc
also increases.

What is you feeling about their article that proposes keep all
things in abundance except for PO4 to control algae. (Do I have their
idea
right?)

Yes, you do. During that time, that was the prevailing theory and was
en vogue. Things change.

I do find it suprising that Dupla et al, proscribed to this notion and
made statements in their book(and other folks) that PO4 causes algae
without testing if it was true or not.
It's not a difficult experiment, most any plant keeper can do this and
see for themselves.

Adding too much of any nutrient can destablize a system and thre same
can be said for not adding ENOUGH of a nutrient.

Folks traditionally assumed starving algae was a good idea. But
healthy plant growth is the goal. You do not have to starve algae to
get rid of it. So the the focus should be giving what's best for the
plants. The algae settles down and is no longer an issue if folks do
this.

I've been able to turn around any tank, with any algae is 2-3 weeks or
less working with that simple philosophy.
That's a big statement, but I have tried it with every species of
algae and many, many tanks.

You try it. Then you tell me what you think.
Watch the tank for the first few days and measure the NO3.
Note the plant's color, pearling and other plant features and algae.

Regards,
Tom Barr


-Bruce Geist

Yeah it was me that asked about PO4 sources a few weeks ago, I googled to
find out what a fleet enema was and I was initially horrified when I first
got that answer. Anyone tried it yet?

"Bruce Geist" wrote in message
...
Tom,

Great information in this post.. I will try out your suggestions.

You know, I saw someone else on this newsgroup suggest using a Fleet Enema
to dose PO4 because it was easier than another way a contributor had
suggested to dose PO4. I thought it rather crude humor-- ha! I am
flabbergasted to learn that this is a real source for PO4! You learn
something new everyday, as they say.

I am intrigued to try the PO4 dosing strategy. I very much appreciate you
taking the time to post this. Thank you!

-Bruce Geist

" wrote in message
om...
Bruce Geist wrote:

Tom,

So you supplement with PO4?

Yes, and always have, just did not realize it directly till folks cam
eover and test my tap water. It had 1.2ppm of orthophosphate(inorganic
plant/algae usable PO4).

If so, what is your recommendation on how to do
this-- what is your PO4 source and how much do you add. Can sudden
changes
in PO4 kill fish (like Nitrate changes can)?

No. I suppose if you add 50ppm etc if may but folks have up to 5ppm
etc, no issues for fish.
I used tap water for many years, I then used KH2PO4, I have a
lifetime's supply, doesn't take much.
It's available on line at:
www.litemanu.com

Same for KNO3, K2SO4 etc.

You can also use sodium phosphate, this you can get from the drug
store, Fleet enemas are mainly PO4 based. Look on the label.

A rice grain per 20 gal/every 2-4 days should do it.
Or with the fleet enema, a drop or two every 2-4 days per 20 gallon.

Phosphoric acid also works, H3PO4 etc.

My tank is generally void or close to void of phosphate by design,
following
the recommendations of Sears, et. al. Sounds like you disagree with
their
approach.

No, not really. Their notion of adding salts like KNO3, K2SO4 is well
founded to suit the plants. I would not have been able to get to the
level where I am at without some of the same ideas. Their notion that
PO4 is the cause of algae blooms is incorrect though. But if you re
read the article, you'll find they don't say absent PO4, just low.
Absent is bad and they are well aware of that.
It's not that I disagree in an opinion, I know it's incorrect to say
adding PO4 to a planted tank with CO2, light and fully planted causes
algae. I can and have proved that again and again for many years.

Another issue is the levels they choose where close but I tweaked them
some.

I add more iron, add PO4, and more K and more CO2 and the lighting was
rather low on their tanks, about 1/2 what it is for most tanks these
days with PC lighting etc. That means more energy and growth and tanks
that are often depleated of nutrients.

By usiung higher lighting, I found the nutrients that where consumed
rapidly by the plants, With less light, it's hard to see these uptake
rates etc, and when you add PO4, the NO3 uptake , CO2 uptake etc etc
also increases.

What is you feeling about their article that proposes keep all
things in abundance except for PO4 to control algae. (Do I have their
idea
right?)

Yes, you do. During that time, that was the prevailing theory and was
en vogue. Things change.

I do find it suprising that Dupla et al, proscribed to this notion and
made statements in their book(and other folks) that PO4 causes algae
without testing if it was true or not.
It's not a difficult experiment, most any plant keeper can do this and
see for themselves.

Adding too much of any nutrient can destablize a system and thre same
can be said for not adding ENOUGH of a nutrient.

Folks traditionally assumed starving algae was a good idea. But
healthy plant growth is the goal. You do not have to starve algae to
get rid of it. So the the focus should be giving what's best for the
plants. The algae settles down and is no longer an issue if folks do
this.

I've been able to turn around any tank, with any algae is 2-3 weeks or
less working with that simple philosophy.
That's a big statement, but I have tried it with every species of
algae and many, many tanks.

You try it. Then you tell me what you think.
Watch the tank for the first few days and measure the NO3.
Note the plant's color, pearling and other plant features and algae.

Regards,
Tom Barr


-Bruce Geist

Enemas, kitty litter, panty hose, stump remover, green water, DIY
brews, MH's, CO2, folks not "in the know " get some weird
impressions:-)
I don't tell my GF anything, "It's fertilizer dear......... it only
cost 2.99$"

But it's easy to find the Fleet's and a few drops is all it takes to
illicit a response......in the plants, not the pants........

Regards,
Tom Barr

) wrote in message . com...
Enemas, kitty litter, panty hose, stump remover, green water, DIY
brews, MH's, CO2, folks not "in the know " get some weird
impressions:-)
I don't tell my GF anything, "It's fertilizer dear......... it only
cost 2.99$"

But it's easy to find the Fleet's and a few drops is all it takes to
illicit a response......in the plants, not the pants........

Regards,
Tom Barr

Indeed... a little enema goes a long way. Some of the enema products
have lubricant on the applicator tip, wipe off before using. :-p

Erik Leung

notes: ludwigia brevipes -
http://www.e-aquaria.com/notes/010603.html

So how many drops/mls of that ready to use fleet enema a day should I
initially add to supplement a 40G, medium planted, med-high light, CO2
enriched tank? Thanks.


"Erik Leung" wrote in message
om...
) wrote in message
. com...
Enemas, kitty litter, panty hose, stump remover, green water, DIY
brews, MH's, CO2, folks not "in the know " get some weird
impressions:-)
I don't tell my GF anything, "It's fertilizer dear......... it only
cost 2.99$"

But it's easy to find the Fleet's and a few drops is all it takes to
illicit a response......in the plants, not the pants........

Regards,
Tom Barr

Indeed... a little enema goes a long way. Some of the enema products
have lubricant on the applicator tip, wipe off before using. :-p

Erik Leung

notes: ludwigia brevipes -
http://www.e-aquaria.com/notes/010603.html

In article , "Tasslehoff" wrote:
So how many drops/mls of that ready to use fleet enema a day should I
initially add to supplement a 40G, medium planted, med-high light, CO2
enriched tank? Thanks.


I would only does nitrate after using a test kit to find out how much you
have now. Too much nitrate will cause problems. Once you have a test kit,
someone else can tell you what to aim for in terms of ppm. I don't have
experience with it so I won't venture a guess. (Though I just picked up a
test kit yesterday, and will start dosing PMDD when I run out of the prepared
fert. I have now).

__
"Insert witty comment here."
-John

You must have missed the following that Tom provided:

Or with the fleet enema, a drop or two every 2-4 days per 20 gallon

Sounds once you get all of your nutrients under control, you need to add 2
to 4 drops every 2 to 4 days. .
-Bruce


"Tasslehoff" wrote in message
...
So how many drops/mls of that ready to use fleet enema a day should I
initially add to supplement a 40G, medium planted, med-high light, CO2
enriched tank? Thanks.


"Erik Leung" wrote in message
om...
) wrote in message
. com...
Enemas, kitty litter, panty hose, stump remover, green water, DIY
brews, MH's, CO2, folks not "in the know " get some weird
impressions:-)
I don't tell my GF anything, "It's fertilizer dear......... it only
cost 2.99$"

But it's easy to find the Fleet's and a few drops is all it takes to
illicit a response......in the plants, not the pants........

Regards,
Tom Barr

Indeed... a little enema goes a long way. Some of the enema products
have lubricant on the applicator tip, wipe off before using. :-p

Erik Leung

notes: ludwigia brevipes -
http://www.e-aquaria.com/notes/010603.html