Hello,

I saw a chart on a web page a while back that showed various plant
problems and the cause. I can't remember where it was now that I need
it!!

A lot of my plants have holes in the leaves. With the twisted vallis,
this often means that the leaves break off altogether. I imagine this is
a nutrient deficiency, but would like to confirm.

Tank is 48"x12"x15", has soft, slightly acidic water, pH around 6.5 with
DIY CO2, three 48" lights, regularly dosed with PMDD, medium fish load.

Any help appreciated.

--
Alan Silver
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In article , LeighMo
writes
I saw a chart on a web page a while back that showed various plant
problems and the cause. I can't remember where it was now that I need
it!!

That would be Chuck's page:

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_nutrient.htm

Thanx for the link, but that page doesn't mention my problem. A lot of
the plants have holes as the leaves grow. In the case of the
echinodorus, this means holes, in the case of the twisted vallis, this
means the leaves often break off completely. The nearest thing on his
page is pin-sized holes that slowly enlarge. Mine are bigger to start
with.

But I would look to the fish, first. Especially if you have loaches.
They like to bite holes in the leaves.

Fairly sure this isn't the problem. I've never seen any fish attacking
the leaves. It's also more of a recent problem. The only thing I can
think of is that I was using Tetra plant fertiliser liquid, but recently
started using PMDD (bought from someone who posted about it on this
group some time ago). That's why I wondered if it was a nutrient
deficiency. He said his recipe was from the FAQ.

Only other thought is that the bottle I use to store the PMDD liquid has
some white solids stuck to the bottom. This is probably one of the
ingredients that has settled. I always shake the bottle well before
dosing, but it could be that this ingredient is not in the liquid in
enough quantity. Could also be that I'm not using enough !! I'm a bit
nervous about putting too much on though.

Thanx for your reply. Any further help appreciated.

--
Alan Silver
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In article , LeighMo
writes
And tell us what kind of fish you have. My money's on the fish being
the cause. (My loaches were well-behaved for years before learning the
plants were tasty, and other people have had the same experience. So
even if you haven't added any new fish recently, it could still be them.)

Fish list is the easiest :-

6 x harlequin rasboras
7 x glowlight tetras
4 x tiger barbs
2 x golden gourami
3 x synodontis velifer
1 x apple snail

All fish are fully grown, except for the synodontis where I'm not sure.
One is about 5" long, the other two are about 3" each. As I was under
the impression that these only reached about 4" and they have grown
considerably since we got them (couple of months), I'm not sure if they
actually are s.velifer or a similar.

Does that help ? Thanx for the reply.

--
Alan Silver
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In article , LeighMo
writes
6 x harlequin rasboras
7 x glowlight tetras
4 x tiger barbs
2 x golden gourami
3 x synodontis velifer
1 x apple snail

Some people report that they have trouble with tiger barbs and gouramis
eating plants.

Really ? Never heard that. Considering the size of the gouramis, they
could eat a fair bit of leaf each !!

Never seen them taking any notice of the plants though. I can understand
that loaches and snails work more at night, but my gouramis and tigers
seem to sleep once the lights go out (sneaked up on them a few times
!!).

And are you sure the apple snail is of the non-plant eating variety?

Only as sure as you can ever be. Never seen it doing anything that
looked like eating plants. It tends to be fairly active, even in the
day, but always seems to be more interested in algae or dead leaves
(which pleases me).

How long has the tank been set up, BTW?

Over a year. Can't remember exactly. The tank was changed over a couple
of times before we settled on this combination of fish, plants, etc. I
think it's 12-18 months since finalised it.

If it is the fish or snail, any idea what I can do about it ? The fish
get fed plenty, although I don't tend to put vegetables in the tank
much. Have done once or twice, but they never seemed *that*interested in
them.

Thanx for the reply.

--
Alan Silver
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LeighMo wrote in message ...

Is there a possibility that the leaves with holes in them
are dead or dying?

And do the holes appear in new or old leaves, or both?

Large sections of leaves being gone would tend to point toward the Apple
Snails, but the lack of extensive damage coupled with the length of time
these snails have been present tells me to look elsewhere.

Has anyone noticed that his symptoms point toward a potassium deficiency?
Are there any distorted leaves among the broad-leafed plants to go along
with those problems already described?...


--
-Y-

Nestor 10

".chkr" is for mail-bots

I get damage that sounds very much like that, including the breaking vals.
I've been attributing it to softened water/calcium deficiency and two poorly
trained pl*cos.

LeighMo wrote in message
...
Has anyone noticed that his symptoms point toward a potassium deficiency?

He looked on Chuck's page, and said that he didn't think it was K, because
the
holes aren't pinhole-sized -- even the smallest is much larger than that.

I asked him if the holes are in old leaves, new leaves, or both. That
should
help determine if it's K or not.

Are there any distorted leaves among the broad-leafed plants to go along
with those problems already described?...

He did say that his twisted Val leaves broke off altogether, because of
the
damage.

I'd sure like to see a picture of the damage.



Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

In article , Nestor 10
writes
Are there any distorted leaves among the broad-leafed plants to go along
with those problems already described?...

No. All plants look very healthy, except for the holes in the
echinodorus leaves (old and new as far as I can see) and leaves broken
off the twisted vallis - which I assume is a result of the same problem.

Thanx for the reply.

--
Alan Silver
Please remove the "furryferret" if replying by e-mail

In article , LeighMo
writes
I asked him if the holes are in old leaves, new leaves, or both. That should
help determine if it's K or not.

Sorry, forgot to reply to that bit !! The holes seem to be in both old
and new.

I'd sure like to see a picture of the damage.

Trouble is finding a digital camera (my normal camera i only a cheap
one, wouldn't be able to get the detail).

The twisted vallis leaves just look like if you put your hand in there
and broke off a leaf with your hand. The echinodorus ones are harder to
describe. Maybe I'll try pulling one out and scanning it !! Don't know
how well that would work, but it might come out.

pause for wet hands and holy leaves

Well, that worked well !! I'll e-mail the picture to you (it's only 38K,
nothing to worry about).

--
Alan Silver
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In article , kush
writes
I get damage that sounds very much like that, including the breaking
vals. I've been attributing it to softened water/calcium deficiency and
two poorly trained pl*cos.

Well, I've got soft water. Don't know about the calcium though. How
would I tell?

Alan

--
Alan Silver
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In article , LeighMo
writes
If it is the fish or snail, any idea what I can do about it ? The fish
get fed plenty, although I don't tend to put vegetables in the tank
much. Have done once or twice, but they never seemed *that*interested in
them.

If something's eating your plants, putting veggies in the tank will
probably help. A A slice of cucumber, zucchini (courgette, I think you
call it over there), or apple. Frozen peas (peel the skin off first).
A leaf of romaine lettuce. Canned green beans (low salt, if possible).
I would expect your snail, at least, to be interested in these foods.

Might try it again, but as I said, they've never been that interested in
veggies. I usually use either cucumber or peas (30 seconds in the
microwave, then peeled and chopped). Might try something different. I'll
see what the wife has available !! Apple and lettuce should be easy.

Thanx

--
Alan Silver
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Snail.

* * * * *

"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
-David Hume


LeighMo wrote in message
...
Sorry, forgot to reply to that bit !! The holes seem to be in both old
and new.

In that case, it's unlikely to be a deficiency. IME, damage to all
leaves, old
and new, usually means some fish or snail thinks your plants are a salad
bar.

Well, that worked well !! I'll e-mail the picture to you (it's only 38K,
nothing to worry about).

Okay, got the photo. I've put it up he

http://members.aol.com/leighmo/alan.jpg

I hope you don't mind, but I think letting everyone see it will help with
the
diagnosis.

That is most definitely *not* a deficiency. Something is eating your
plants.
My guess would be the apple snail, though I can't say for sure.

Have you visited www.applesnail.net? Look at their identification page,
and
see if you can tell which species of snail you have. If it's not Pomacea
bridgesii, you have a plant-eater. If it is P. bridgesii, then maybe the
plant
leaves are dying for some reason, and the snail knows it, even if you
don't.

If anyone else has any idea which critter made those holes, please chime
in.
For those who missed the earlier post, the possible candidates a

6 x harlequin rasboras
7 x glowlight tetras
4 x tiger barbs
2 x golden gourami
3 x synodontis velifer
1 x apple snail


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

LeighMo wrote ...

Usually, a plant-eating snail starts on the plants shortly after being put
in the tank.

I think it' may be a size and preference thing. I've had "good" snails that
never touched a plant until they got large or until their favourite
algae/flake food/whatever was no longer available.

kush

* * * * *

"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
-David Hume

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety. "
-Benjamin Franklin

"I love quotations because it is a joy to find thoughts one might have,
beautifully expressed with much authority by someone recognizably wiser than
oneself. "
-Marlene Dietrich

In article , kush
writes
Usually, a plant-eating snail starts on the plants shortly after being put
in the tank.

I think it' may be a size and preference thing. I've had "good" snails
that never touched a plant until they got large or until their
favourite algae/flake food/whatever was no longer available.

FWIW, the snail hasn't really grown much since I got it and I haven't
changed the food I give.

Thanx for the reply.

--
Alan Silver
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In article , LeighMo
writes
Okay, got the photo. I've put it up he

http://members.aol.com/leighmo/alan.jpg

I hope you don't mind, but I think letting everyone see it will help with the
diagnosis.

I don't mind at all, I'm grateful for the help.

That is most definitely *not* a deficiency. Something is eating your plants.
My guess would be the apple snail, though I can't say for sure.

Have you visited www.applesnail.net? Look at their identification page, and
see if you can tell which species of snail you have. If it's not Pomacea
bridgesii, you have a plant-eater. If it is P. bridgesii, then maybe the plant
leaves are dying for some reason, and the snail knows it, even if you don't.

Looked at the site (fantastic) and am sure that I have P. bridgesii. I
might try taking it out and seeing if that helps.

Don't know if it's relevant, but I looked again yesterday, and the
echinodorus rubin is getting more holes/eaten leaves, whereas the Amazon
sword and the other two echinodorus are pretty much OK. The Amazon has
one or two holes in the leaves, but not big and not many compared to the
size of the plant. The ech. rubin was doing very well until just
recently, but now it's looking a bit sorry.

Thanx for the help.

--
Alan Silver
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In article , LeighMo
writes
Looked at the site (fantastic) and am sure that I have P. bridgesii. I
might try taking it out and seeing if that helps.

It will be all right in a bucket for awhile. They don't even need heaters.
You should have a cover, though, to keep it from climbing out. I use an old
dinner plate.

I have a spare (small) tank, so I might use that. In a centrally heated
house it should be OK for a while without a heater.

But I've never known P. bridgesii to eat healthy plants. One time I thought
mine were eating my Amazon sword and crypt leaves, but when I reached in to
prune them the damaged leaves, they came loose very easily. They had rotted
away from the plant at the base, even though they looked fine. They were
emersed-growth leaves, that had died off when I submerged the plants in my
aquarium.

Well the plants are all pretty healthy (apart from the current problem).
Obviously there is the occasional dead leaf, but overall they are in
good health. I do see the apple snail going for the dead leaves, but
that fits with expectations.

You might try to catch whoever is eating your plants in the act. Sneak up on
the tank during the day, or shine a flashlight in at night.

Tried that, but never caught anyone. I have even watched the apple snail
working its way up a large leaf, munching as it goes, but never seen any
evidence that its eating the actual leaf.

Ho hum. Thanx for the help

--
Alan Silver
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