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#1
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CO2 & PH Controllers
Blake wrote:
I have a 155g tank that I'm getting ready to re-plant. I'm going to be adding a CO2 system to it and am considering a PH controller. I was wondering if anyone had any advice as to: 1) Whether this is really necessary What is your objective for installing a pH controller? Asked another way, what is your reason to controlling your pH to within 0.02, 24 hours/day? |
#2
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CO2 & PH Controllers
Blake wrote:
I have a 155g tank that I'm getting ready to re-plant. I'm going to be adding a CO2 system to it and am considering a PH controller. I was wondering if anyone had any advice as to: 1) Whether this is really necessary What is your objective for installing a pH controller? Asked another way, what is your reason to controlling your pH to within 0.02, 24 hours/day? |
#3
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CO2 & PH Controllers
If you decide not to get a controller, I would recommend getting a permanent
visual CO2 monitor. I just ordered one from Dupla. My pressurized CO2 in my 55 gal has worked well. The only problem have been when I changed things and didn't realize the co2 implications. Such as switching from a hang on the back filter with biowheel to a canister. I almost killed a tank full of fish when the pH got to 6.0. So, since I am basically lazy and rarely test my water unless there is an issue, I hope the co2 monitor will keep me out of future trouble. Bob "Blake" wrote in message ... I have a 155g tank that I'm getting ready to re-plant. I'm going to be adding a CO2 system to it and am considering a PH controller. I was wondering if anyone had any advice as to: 1) Whether this is really necessary 2) Which one is better Thanks, Blake |
#4
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CO2 & PH Controllers
If you decide not to get a controller, I would recommend getting a permanent
visual CO2 monitor. I just ordered one from Dupla. My pressurized CO2 in my 55 gal has worked well. The only problem have been when I changed things and didn't realize the co2 implications. Such as switching from a hang on the back filter with biowheel to a canister. I almost killed a tank full of fish when the pH got to 6.0. So, since I am basically lazy and rarely test my water unless there is an issue, I hope the co2 monitor will keep me out of future trouble. Bob "Blake" wrote in message ... I have a 155g tank that I'm getting ready to re-plant. I'm going to be adding a CO2 system to it and am considering a PH controller. I was wondering if anyone had any advice as to: 1) Whether this is really necessary 2) Which one is better Thanks, Blake |
#5
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CO2 & PH Controllers
"Blake" wrote in message ...
I have a 155g tank that I'm getting ready to re-plant. I'm going to be adding a CO2 system to it and am considering a PH controller. I was wondering if anyone had any advice as to: 1) Whether this is really necessary 2) Which one is better Thanks, Blake Don't need it and will not help. Get a pH monitor instead, this is cheaper and has the accurate display of pH etc. You adjust the pH by setting the needle valve which will hold a steady pH in a weel designed system as good as most any pH controller set ups. Regards, Tom Barr |
#6
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CO2 & PH Controllers
"Blake" wrote in message ...
I have a 155g tank that I'm getting ready to re-plant. I'm going to be adding a CO2 system to it and am considering a PH controller. I was wondering if anyone had any advice as to: 1) Whether this is really necessary 2) Which one is better Thanks, Blake Don't need it and will not help. Get a pH monitor instead, this is cheaper and has the accurate display of pH etc. You adjust the pH by setting the needle valve which will hold a steady pH in a weel designed system as good as most any pH controller set ups. Regards, Tom Barr |
#7
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CO2 & PH Controllers
Just one point. The PH controller will typically also read out the PH of
the water on a continuous basis. A controller is probably 100 to 120 US dollars more than a simple PH monitor. In addition, for a controller based system you would need a solenoid on your valve unit which is an additional expense. In total, for a controller based system, you are looking at another 150 bucks or so extra cost-- assuming you are going to buy a PH monitor as suggested by Bob and Tom if you don't get a controller. I s'pose that will buy a lot of plants! (I am happy with my set up though..) As I said in my previous post, get the details on successful, non-controller based systems and try to replicate that. The reactor will affect performance greatly, as will your valve's fine adjustment capabilities. Tom's configuration suggestion is no doubt a good one. -Bruce Geist " wrote in message om... "Blake" wrote in message ... I have a 155g tank that I'm getting ready to re-plant. I'm going to be adding a CO2 system to it and am considering a PH controller. I was wondering if anyone had any advice as to: 1) Whether this is really necessary 2) Which one is better Thanks, Blake Don't need it and will not help. Get a pH monitor instead, this is cheaper and has the accurate display of pH etc. You adjust the pH by setting the needle valve which will hold a steady pH in a weel designed system as good as most any pH controller set ups. Regards, Tom Barr |
#8
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CO2 & PH Controllers
Just one point. The PH controller will typically also read out the PH of
the water on a continuous basis. A controller is probably 100 to 120 US dollars more than a simple PH monitor. In addition, for a controller based system you would need a solenoid on your valve unit which is an additional expense. In total, for a controller based system, you are looking at another 150 bucks or so extra cost-- assuming you are going to buy a PH monitor as suggested by Bob and Tom if you don't get a controller. I s'pose that will buy a lot of plants! (I am happy with my set up though..) As I said in my previous post, get the details on successful, non-controller based systems and try to replicate that. The reactor will affect performance greatly, as will your valve's fine adjustment capabilities. Tom's configuration suggestion is no doubt a good one. -Bruce Geist " wrote in message om... "Blake" wrote in message ... I have a 155g tank that I'm getting ready to re-plant. I'm going to be adding a CO2 system to it and am considering a PH controller. I was wondering if anyone had any advice as to: 1) Whether this is really necessary 2) Which one is better Thanks, Blake Don't need it and will not help. Get a pH monitor instead, this is cheaper and has the accurate display of pH etc. You adjust the pH by setting the needle valve which will hold a steady pH in a weel designed system as good as most any pH controller set ups. Regards, Tom Barr |
#9
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CO2 & PH Controllers
I have a controller also, I did this in my pressurized system for a couple
of reasons. I killed all my fish the first time I sprung a leak the tank pressure went low then dumped the last few hundred psi of Co2 into my tank. Then there was the time I did not know the tank was getting low and the high pressure system dumped all the CO2 into my system and killed the fish again. I know I am a novice I have only been keeping fish for five years now but the piece of mind from my controller is great. Not to mention I can see the PH without doing any testing. The hobby is supposed to be fun. "Bruce Geist" wrote in message ... Just one point. The PH controller will typically also read out the PH of the water on a continuous basis. A controller is probably 100 to 120 US dollars more than a simple PH monitor. In addition, for a controller based system you would need a solenoid on your valve unit which is an additional expense. In total, for a controller based system, you are looking at another 150 bucks or so extra cost-- assuming you are going to buy a PH monitor as suggested by Bob and Tom if you don't get a controller. I s'pose that will buy a lot of plants! (I am happy with my set up though..) As I said in my previous post, get the details on successful, non-controller based systems and try to replicate that. The reactor will affect performance greatly, as will your valve's fine adjustment capabilities. Tom's configuration suggestion is no doubt a good one. -Bruce Geist " wrote in message om... "Blake" wrote in message ... I have a 155g tank that I'm getting ready to re-plant. I'm going to be adding a CO2 system to it and am considering a PH controller. I was wondering if anyone had any advice as to: 1) Whether this is really necessary 2) Which one is better Thanks, Blake Don't need it and will not help. Get a pH monitor instead, this is cheaper and has the accurate display of pH etc. You adjust the pH by setting the needle valve which will hold a steady pH in a weel designed system as good as most any pH controller set ups. Regards, Tom Barr |
#10
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CO2 & PH Controllers
I have a controller also, I did this in my pressurized system for a couple
of reasons. I killed all my fish the first time I sprung a leak the tank pressure went low then dumped the last few hundred psi of Co2 into my tank. Then there was the time I did not know the tank was getting low and the high pressure system dumped all the CO2 into my system and killed the fish again. I know I am a novice I have only been keeping fish for five years now but the piece of mind from my controller is great. Not to mention I can see the PH without doing any testing. The hobby is supposed to be fun. "Bruce Geist" wrote in message ... Just one point. The PH controller will typically also read out the PH of the water on a continuous basis. A controller is probably 100 to 120 US dollars more than a simple PH monitor. In addition, for a controller based system you would need a solenoid on your valve unit which is an additional expense. In total, for a controller based system, you are looking at another 150 bucks or so extra cost-- assuming you are going to buy a PH monitor as suggested by Bob and Tom if you don't get a controller. I s'pose that will buy a lot of plants! (I am happy with my set up though..) As I said in my previous post, get the details on successful, non-controller based systems and try to replicate that. The reactor will affect performance greatly, as will your valve's fine adjustment capabilities. Tom's configuration suggestion is no doubt a good one. -Bruce Geist " wrote in message om... "Blake" wrote in message ... I have a 155g tank that I'm getting ready to re-plant. I'm going to be adding a CO2 system to it and am considering a PH controller. I was wondering if anyone had any advice as to: 1) Whether this is really necessary 2) Which one is better Thanks, Blake Don't need it and will not help. Get a pH monitor instead, this is cheaper and has the accurate display of pH etc. You adjust the pH by setting the needle valve which will hold a steady pH in a weel designed system as good as most any pH controller set ups. Regards, Tom Barr |
#11
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CO2 & PH Controllers
Jim Miller wrote:
I guess I haven't figured out how the controller makes anything safer. If the probe goes out of calibration it could cause the controller to call for more CO2. The cure for CO2 end-of-tank dumps is a needle valve working against a pressure head. To be clear, I'm in the "run CO2 24 hours/day and your pH swing will only be 0.2" camp. However, about 3 weeks ago my dual gage regulator-needle valve system ran out of gas. It did an end of tank dump. pH dropped from about 6.4 to a bit under 6 before I noticed fish behavior and turned it off. So a needle valve does not prevent an empty tank pressure dump. Interestingly, without any injection, pH only rose 0.2-0.3 per day.Cutting surface agitation REALLY helps. |
#12
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CO2 & PH Controllers
Jim Miller wrote:
I guess I haven't figured out how the controller makes anything safer. If the probe goes out of calibration it could cause the controller to call for more CO2. The cure for CO2 end-of-tank dumps is a needle valve working against a pressure head. To be clear, I'm in the "run CO2 24 hours/day and your pH swing will only be 0.2" camp. However, about 3 weeks ago my dual gage regulator-needle valve system ran out of gas. It did an end of tank dump. pH dropped from about 6.4 to a bit under 6 before I noticed fish behavior and turned it off. So a needle valve does not prevent an empty tank pressure dump. Interestingly, without any injection, pH only rose 0.2-0.3 per day.Cutting surface agitation REALLY helps. |
#13
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CO2 & PH Controllers
Chuck Gadd wrote:
On Tue, 11 Feb 2003 10:30:53 -0800, Dave Millman wrote: However, about 3 weeks ago my dual gage regulator-needle valve system ran out of gas. It did an end of tank dump. pH dropped from about 6.4 to a bit under 6 before I noticed fish behavior and turned it off. So a needle valve does not prevent an empty tank pressure dump. What pressure do you run out of your regulator? Does your system have a check-valve? Where is the check valve located? CO2 tank side reads 800 psi, needle valve side set at 10-11 psi. I have a German check valve on the hose from the regulator to the reactor. The whole system came from M3 about 15 months ago. I've seen cases where the regulator pressure was set VERY low (2psi) and the resulting increase when the "tank dump" happened caused in a CO2 overdose. But if the regulator pressure is set higher, the needle-valve needs to be closer tighter, and when the output pressure rises, the needle-valve still limits the CO2 and prevents problems. Additionally, if there is a check-valve located after the needle-valve, the needle-valve often has to be set at a higher rate in order to overcome the resistance of the check-valve. Some check-valves cause problems, others don't. This is really interesting. In between my last post and this, I was up at a fish store that told me about a fish die-off they attributed to not turning off the CO2 at night. I looked at their tank: needle valve, no cover, lights suspended 8 inches above the tank, no chance of CO2 being trapped above the water and displacing O2. I told them it was unlikely that the night time ph drop killed the fish, and asked for more detail. They told me it happend three weeks ago, pH measured below 6 when they saw the dead fish. Then they said they had just about been ready to change the CO2 tank, because it was almost empty before the die off. This is exactly what happened in my tank, except nothing died (they did stop eating for a day, though!). So I have two separate experiences that the CO2 rate through a needle valve system can rise when a bottle gets empty. What does the CO2 triple point diagram say? Does pressure increase when the last liquid is gone? |
#14
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CO2 & PH Controllers
Chuck Gadd wrote:
On Tue, 11 Feb 2003 10:30:53 -0800, Dave Millman wrote: However, about 3 weeks ago my dual gage regulator-needle valve system ran out of gas. It did an end of tank dump. pH dropped from about 6.4 to a bit under 6 before I noticed fish behavior and turned it off. So a needle valve does not prevent an empty tank pressure dump. What pressure do you run out of your regulator? Does your system have a check-valve? Where is the check valve located? CO2 tank side reads 800 psi, needle valve side set at 10-11 psi. I have a German check valve on the hose from the regulator to the reactor. The whole system came from M3 about 15 months ago. I've seen cases where the regulator pressure was set VERY low (2psi) and the resulting increase when the "tank dump" happened caused in a CO2 overdose. But if the regulator pressure is set higher, the needle-valve needs to be closer tighter, and when the output pressure rises, the needle-valve still limits the CO2 and prevents problems. Additionally, if there is a check-valve located after the needle-valve, the needle-valve often has to be set at a higher rate in order to overcome the resistance of the check-valve. Some check-valves cause problems, others don't. This is really interesting. In between my last post and this, I was up at a fish store that told me about a fish die-off they attributed to not turning off the CO2 at night. I looked at their tank: needle valve, no cover, lights suspended 8 inches above the tank, no chance of CO2 being trapped above the water and displacing O2. I told them it was unlikely that the night time ph drop killed the fish, and asked for more detail. They told me it happend three weeks ago, pH measured below 6 when they saw the dead fish. Then they said they had just about been ready to change the CO2 tank, because it was almost empty before the die off. This is exactly what happened in my tank, except nothing died (they did stop eating for a day, though!). So I have two separate experiences that the CO2 rate through a needle valve system can rise when a bottle gets empty. What does the CO2 triple point diagram say? Does pressure increase when the last liquid is gone? |
#15
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CO2 & PH Controllers
On Tue, 11 Feb 2003 10:30:53 -0800, Dave Millman
wrote: However, about 3 weeks ago my dual gage regulator-needle valve system ran out of gas. It did an end of tank dump. pH dropped from about 6.4 to a bit under 6 before I noticed fish behavior and turned it off. So a needle valve does not prevent an empty tank pressure dump. Yes it does. You had some other funky thing happening in this system, eg the check valve etc. I've run my tanks down over the years many times. I've watched the pH carefully with a pH monitor. I never got any variation till the tank was compleley out and then the pH went up. I use clippard needle valves and have done this same experiment at least 6 times on my own system and have heard the same thing from at least a dozen others. I have a German check valve on the hose from the regulator to the reactor. The whole system came from M3 about 15 months ago. Not sure what they sold you. I've seen cases where the regulator pressure was set VERY low (2psi) and the resulting increase when the "tank dump" happened caused in a CO2 overdose. But if the regulator pressure is set higher, the needle-valve needs to be closer tighter, and when the output pressure rises, the needle-valve still limits the CO2 and prevents problems. Ditto here. Additionally, if there is a check-valve located after the needle-valve, the needle-valve often has to be set at a higher rate in order to overcome the resistance of the check-valve. Some check-valves cause problems, others don't. Ditto. I don't use check valves, nahnannahnah! But I don't need them the way I design my CO2 system. This is really interesting. In between my last post and this, I was up at a fish store that told me about a fish die-off they attributed to not turning off the CO2 at night. I looked at their tank: needle valve, no cover, lights suspended 8 inches above the tank, no chance of CO2 being trapped above the water and displacing O2. That would not occur anyway. I don't like check valves. Unless you are adding the CO2 under pressure in line etc, there's no call for them. By feeding the CO2 into a suction side of a pump, only positive suction pressure is applied. No negative backpressure will ever occur even if the tank runs out of gas, it's only neutral 0 pressure then. No check valve to stick or get clogged and blow out at the last second etc. Like I said, I've watch carefully the effects of a tank going all the way down to zero pressure many times. I've never had anything remotely like a dump in any way. I can therefore attest to the neelde valve's ability without any check valve, solenoids, diffusers etc to muddle anything and my measurement were accurate using a well calibrated pH monitor. Regards, Tom Barr |
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