OK, water-changes are good so, unless you have problems with your local
supply like phosphate or something, or you're overfeeding your fish (you're
not, right?) the issue seems to be something that there's NOT ENOUGH of,
rather than something there's TOO MUCH of. See, this is like Sherlock
Holmes, isn't it? Once you've eliminated the impossible...

I'm going to go with a complicated "two cause" diagnosis. CO2 AND trace
element deficiency - I suspect that either there's not enough CO2 being
produced or that too much of your CO2 is being dissipated by the biowheel.

With pH at 7.6, your dCHº would have to be 15 (somebody check my math,
please!) to be at the low end of optimal. So please test for hardness again
to verify.

There is a condition of very basic (high pH) and very soft (low dCH) under
which iron (and other trace elements?) precipitate out of the water column.
Unfortunately, I don't have the chemistry to speak inteliigently about this.

Recommendation: Get more CO2 into the water. Increasing CO2 will lower the
pH. Resume supplementing with trace. DON'T overfeed your fish. DON'T post
back that you have superabundant CO2 because that would make me look stupid
and **** me off.

Good luck.

kush

"You can't have everything - where would you put it?"

chet chet-at-surewestDOTnet wrote in message
...
Got some water parameters using the aqua pharm "master test kit".

Ammonia: 0.0
Nitrite: 0.0
Nitrate: 5.0ppm
kH: Uhhh.. I can't find the directions but it was five drops
of
the kH test liquid.
pH: Somewhere between 7.6 and 7.8.
A little discrepancy between the high and low level
test
kits.
Temp: 76F
I'd calculate CO2 saturation, if I could quickly figure out kH levels.

I performed a 40% water change this past Sunday.

Is there something I'm missing?

chet


"chet" chet-at-surewestDOTnet wrote in message
...
"kush" wrote in message
...
Also, I'm not familiar with the bio-wheel power-filter. Is that a
mechanical filter that accelerates bacterial breakdown by heavily
oxygenating the water?

Yes, it is the bio-wheel power-filter. I have it set to the lowest
setting
(I like quiet). According to the literature, it is designed to provide a
high oxygen level to nitrifying bacteria that live on the wheel. It does
not
generate a lot of surface turbulance. I'll measure CO2 again this
evening
and get back to you on the numbers

My Rotala indica is one of the fastest growing plant in my tanks. At
comparable light levels, I'd expect to prune four to six inches off it
every
week. Is yours growing that fast?

It has grown some, but more like two inches in a month. Plus it's
getting
a
little "leggy". The Amazons, Onion plants, and Anacharis are the
racehorces
in my tank.

How much and how often are you changing your water?

~40%-50% every other week.

Have you added any phosphate-based products to adjust your pH?

None that I am aware of. I have added Seachem "Flourish" and Seachem
"Root
Tabs" and Hikari goldfish food.

I'll get you numbers tonight.

Thanks for your help

chet

Just as quickly as it is adding O2, it is evaporating CO2. Planted tanks
almost demand a minimal surface agitation filtration to be successful. I'm
afraid your CO2 is not getting used by the plants as much as it could. But
you are getting pearling, so obviously some is staying dissolved. I guess
the point is: it could be better, and maybe if it was better your plants
could compete better.

Regarding nutrients, your nitrates appear reasonable, but you don't know
your phosphates. You should only be feeding once a day, and only as much as
they can eat in five minutes. Goldfish have more mass than other fish and
so, they produce more waste. This could be producing excess phosphates.
Again, watch those feedings. You have nitrogen and phosphorous covered, but
you are not adding any potassium (K). Your plants could be potassium
limited, which means they can't absorb the other nutrients without potassium
present as well. Flourish has some K, but not too much. You might want to
consider finding a supplement with more potassium. Just my two cents.

Jody

"chet" chet-at-surewestDOTnet wrote in message
...
"kush" wrote in message
...
Also, I'm not familiar with the bio-wheel power-filter. Is that a
mechanical filter that accelerates bacterial breakdown by heavily
oxygenating the water?

Yes, it is the bio-wheel power-filter. I have it set to the lowest setting
(I like quiet). According to the literature, it is designed to provide a
high oxygen level to nitrifying bacteria that live on the wheel. It does
not
generate a lot of surface turbulance. I'll measure CO2 again this evening
and get back to you on the numbers

My Rotala indica is one of the fastest growing plant in my tanks. At
comparable light levels, I'd expect to prune four to six inches off it
every
week. Is yours growing that fast?

It has grown some, but more like two inches in a month. Plus it's getting
a
little "leggy". The Amazons, Onion plants, and Anacharis are the
racehorces
in my tank.

How much and how often are you changing your water?

~40%-50% every other week.

Have you added any phosphate-based products to adjust your pH?

None that I am aware of. I have added Seachem "Flourish" and Seachem "Root
Tabs" and Hikari goldfish food.

I'll get you numbers tonight.

Thanks for your help

chet

Just as quickly as it is adding O2, it is evaporating CO2. Planted tanks
almost demand a minimal surface agitation filtration to be successful. I'm
afraid your CO2 is not getting used by the plants as much as it could. But
you are getting pearling, so obviously some is staying dissolved. I guess
the point is: it could be better, and maybe if it was better your plants
could compete better.

Regarding nutrients, your nitrates appear reasonable, but you don't know
your phosphates. You should only be feeding once a day, and only as much as
they can eat in five minutes. Goldfish have more mass than other fish and
so, they produce more waste. This could be producing excess phosphates.
Again, watch those feedings. You have nitrogen and phosphorous covered, but
you are not adding any potassium (K). Your plants could be potassium
limited, which means they can't absorb the other nutrients without potassium
present as well. Flourish has some K, but not too much. You might want to
consider finding a supplement with more potassium. Just my two cents.

Jody

"chet" chet-at-surewestDOTnet wrote in message
...
"kush" wrote in message
...
Also, I'm not familiar with the bio-wheel power-filter. Is that a
mechanical filter that accelerates bacterial breakdown by heavily
oxygenating the water?

Yes, it is the bio-wheel power-filter. I have it set to the lowest setting
(I like quiet). According to the literature, it is designed to provide a
high oxygen level to nitrifying bacteria that live on the wheel. It does
not
generate a lot of surface turbulance. I'll measure CO2 again this evening
and get back to you on the numbers

My Rotala indica is one of the fastest growing plant in my tanks. At
comparable light levels, I'd expect to prune four to six inches off it
every
week. Is yours growing that fast?

It has grown some, but more like two inches in a month. Plus it's getting
a
little "leggy". The Amazons, Onion plants, and Anacharis are the
racehorces
in my tank.

How much and how often are you changing your water?

~40%-50% every other week.

Have you added any phosphate-based products to adjust your pH?

None that I am aware of. I have added Seachem "Flourish" and Seachem "Root
Tabs" and Hikari goldfish food.

I'll get you numbers tonight.

Thanks for your help

chet

"kush" wrote in message
...
Once you've eliminated the impossible...

I'm in...

I'm going to go with a complicated "two cause" diagnosis. CO2 AND trace
element deficiency - I suspect that either there's not enough CO2 being
produced or that too much of your CO2 is being dissipated by the biowheel.

The Nutrafin/Hagen kit pretty clearly states "up to 20G US", maybe I should
have two for a 29G tank?

With pH at 7.6, your dCHº would have to be 15 (somebody check my math,
please!) to be at the low end of optimal. So please test for hardness
again
to verify.

That is in the range I have come to expect, 13-16 is where it has tested
(when I could find the manual).

There is a condition of very basic (high pH) and very soft (low dCH) under
which iron (and other trace elements?) precipitate out of the water
column.
Unfortunately, I don't have the chemistry to speak inteliigently about
this.

No clue here either. however, water here in my part of Sacramento is
generally soft and acidic. By default, it comes out at a bout 7.6 pH and
extremely low kH and gH levels. I have been bolstering kH with baking soda
(good old arm and hammer). That may be of interest.

Recommendation: Get more CO2 into the water. Increasing CO2 will lower
the
pH.

That would mean another kit. Oh well, another $30 won't hurt..

Resume supplementing with trace.

Not an issue. I'll take a stab at twice per week.

DON'T overfeed your fish.

I'm really careful here. If anything, I am slightly underfeeding, if there
is such a thing.

DON'T post back that you have superabundant CO2 because that would make
me look stupid and **** me off.

I promise not to make you look any more stupid than I am. You have my word.

chet

Good luck.

Thanks.

chet

"kush" wrote in message
...
Once you've eliminated the impossible...

I'm in...

I'm going to go with a complicated "two cause" diagnosis. CO2 AND trace
element deficiency - I suspect that either there's not enough CO2 being
produced or that too much of your CO2 is being dissipated by the biowheel.

The Nutrafin/Hagen kit pretty clearly states "up to 20G US", maybe I should
have two for a 29G tank?

With pH at 7.6, your dCHº would have to be 15 (somebody check my math,
please!) to be at the low end of optimal. So please test for hardness
again
to verify.

That is in the range I have come to expect, 13-16 is where it has tested
(when I could find the manual).

There is a condition of very basic (high pH) and very soft (low dCH) under
which iron (and other trace elements?) precipitate out of the water
column.
Unfortunately, I don't have the chemistry to speak inteliigently about
this.

No clue here either. however, water here in my part of Sacramento is
generally soft and acidic. By default, it comes out at a bout 7.6 pH and
extremely low kH and gH levels. I have been bolstering kH with baking soda
(good old arm and hammer). That may be of interest.

Recommendation: Get more CO2 into the water. Increasing CO2 will lower
the
pH.

That would mean another kit. Oh well, another $30 won't hurt..

Resume supplementing with trace.

Not an issue. I'll take a stab at twice per week.

DON'T overfeed your fish.

I'm really careful here. If anything, I am slightly underfeeding, if there
is such a thing.

DON'T post back that you have superabundant CO2 because that would make
me look stupid and **** me off.

I promise not to make you look any more stupid than I am. You have my word.

chet

Good luck.

Thanks.

chet

I agree with Jody on the Phosphate issue. In my experience, excess phosphate
(PO4) causes my worst algae problems. Some foods, pH buffers and fertlizers
are very high in phosphates. You can get a phosphate test kit to test for
it, and there are several types of phosphate scubbers/sponges that will help
to reduce the total amount of phosphates. Algae requires more PO4 than
plants grow, so when it gets too high, you get algae instead of plant
growth. There is also a plant safe algaecide that can help slow down the
algae and give the plants a chance to get the upper hand.


"Jody" wrote in message
...
Just as quickly as it is adding O2, it is evaporating CO2. Planted tanks
almost demand a minimal surface agitation filtration to be successful.
I'm
afraid your CO2 is not getting used by the plants as much as it could.
But
you are getting pearling, so obviously some is staying dissolved. I guess
the point is: it could be better, and maybe if it was better your plants
could compete better.

Regarding nutrients, your nitrates appear reasonable, but you don't know
your phosphates. You should only be feeding once a day, and only as much
as
they can eat in five minutes. Goldfish have more mass than other fish and
so, they produce more waste. This could be producing excess phosphates.
Again, watch those feedings. You have nitrogen and phosphorous covered,
but
you are not adding any potassium (K). Your plants could be potassium
limited, which means they can't absorb the other nutrients without
potassium
present as well. Flourish has some K, but not too much. You might want
to
consider finding a supplement with more potassium. Just my two cents.

Jody

"chet" chet-at-surewestDOTnet wrote in message
...
"kush" wrote in message
...
Also, I'm not familiar with the bio-wheel power-filter. Is that a
mechanical filter that accelerates bacterial breakdown by heavily
oxygenating the water?

Yes, it is the bio-wheel power-filter. I have it set to the lowest
setting
(I like quiet). According to the literature, it is designed to provide a
high oxygen level to nitrifying bacteria that live on the wheel. It does
not
generate a lot of surface turbulance. I'll measure CO2 again this
evening
and get back to you on the numbers

My Rotala indica is one of the fastest growing plant in my tanks. At
comparable light levels, I'd expect to prune four to six inches off it
every
week. Is yours growing that fast?

It has grown some, but more like two inches in a month. Plus it's
getting
a
little "leggy". The Amazons, Onion plants, and Anacharis are the
racehorces
in my tank.

How much and how often are you changing your water?

~40%-50% every other week.

Have you added any phosphate-based products to adjust your pH?

None that I am aware of. I have added Seachem "Flourish" and Seachem
"Root
Tabs" and Hikari goldfish food.

I'll get you numbers tonight.

Thanks for your help

chet

I agree with Jody on the Phosphate issue. In my experience, excess phosphate
(PO4) causes my worst algae problems. Some foods, pH buffers and fertlizers
are very high in phosphates. You can get a phosphate test kit to test for
it, and there are several types of phosphate scubbers/sponges that will help
to reduce the total amount of phosphates. Algae requires more PO4 than
plants grow, so when it gets too high, you get algae instead of plant
growth. There is also a plant safe algaecide that can help slow down the
algae and give the plants a chance to get the upper hand.


"Jody" wrote in message
...
Just as quickly as it is adding O2, it is evaporating CO2. Planted tanks
almost demand a minimal surface agitation filtration to be successful.
I'm
afraid your CO2 is not getting used by the plants as much as it could.
But
you are getting pearling, so obviously some is staying dissolved. I guess
the point is: it could be better, and maybe if it was better your plants
could compete better.

Regarding nutrients, your nitrates appear reasonable, but you don't know
your phosphates. You should only be feeding once a day, and only as much
as
they can eat in five minutes. Goldfish have more mass than other fish and
so, they produce more waste. This could be producing excess phosphates.
Again, watch those feedings. You have nitrogen and phosphorous covered,
but
you are not adding any potassium (K). Your plants could be potassium
limited, which means they can't absorb the other nutrients without
potassium
present as well. Flourish has some K, but not too much. You might want
to
consider finding a supplement with more potassium. Just my two cents.

Jody

"chet" chet-at-surewestDOTnet wrote in message
...
"kush" wrote in message
...
Also, I'm not familiar with the bio-wheel power-filter. Is that a
mechanical filter that accelerates bacterial breakdown by heavily
oxygenating the water?

Yes, it is the bio-wheel power-filter. I have it set to the lowest
setting
(I like quiet). According to the literature, it is designed to provide a
high oxygen level to nitrifying bacteria that live on the wheel. It does
not
generate a lot of surface turbulance. I'll measure CO2 again this
evening
and get back to you on the numbers

My Rotala indica is one of the fastest growing plant in my tanks. At
comparable light levels, I'd expect to prune four to six inches off it
every
week. Is yours growing that fast?

It has grown some, but more like two inches in a month. Plus it's
getting
a
little "leggy". The Amazons, Onion plants, and Anacharis are the
racehorces
in my tank.

How much and how often are you changing your water?

~40%-50% every other week.

Have you added any phosphate-based products to adjust your pH?

None that I am aware of. I have added Seachem "Flourish" and Seachem
"Root
Tabs" and Hikari goldfish food.

I'll get you numbers tonight.

Thanks for your help

chet

Planted tanks with CO2...true, without CO2 injection. you want as much surface
disturbance as possible.

Jody wrote:

Just as quickly as it is adding O2, it is evaporating CO2. Planted tanks
almost demand a minimal surface agitation filtration to be successful. I'm
afraid your CO2 is not getting used by the plants as much as it could. But
you are getting pearling, so obviously some is staying dissolved. I guess
the point is: it could be better, and maybe if it was better your plants
could compete better.

Regarding nutrients, your nitrates appear reasonable, but you don't know
your phosphates. You should only be feeding once a day, and only as much as
they can eat in five minutes. Goldfish have more mass than other fish and
so, they produce more waste. This could be producing excess phosphates.
Again, watch those feedings. You have nitrogen and phosphorous covered, but
you are not adding any potassium (K). Your plants could be potassium
limited, which means they can't absorb the other nutrients without potassium
present as well. Flourish has some K, but not too much. You might want to
consider finding a supplement with more potassium. Just my two cents.

Jody

"chet" chet-at-surewestDOTnet wrote in message
...
"kush" wrote in message
...
Also, I'm not familiar with the bio-wheel power-filter. Is that a
mechanical filter that accelerates bacterial breakdown by heavily
oxygenating the water?

Yes, it is the bio-wheel power-filter. I have it set to the lowest setting
(I like quiet). According to the literature, it is designed to provide a
high oxygen level to nitrifying bacteria that live on the wheel. It does
not
generate a lot of surface turbulance. I'll measure CO2 again this evening
and get back to you on the numbers

My Rotala indica is one of the fastest growing plant in my tanks. At
comparable light levels, I'd expect to prune four to six inches off it
every
week. Is yours growing that fast?

It has grown some, but more like two inches in a month. Plus it's getting
a
little "leggy". The Amazons, Onion plants, and Anacharis are the
racehorces
in my tank.

How much and how often are you changing your water?

~40%-50% every other week.

Have you added any phosphate-based products to adjust your pH?

None that I am aware of. I have added Seachem "Flourish" and Seachem "Root
Tabs" and Hikari goldfish food.

I'll get you numbers tonight.

Thanks for your help

chet

Planted tanks with CO2...true, without CO2 injection. you want as much surface
disturbance as possible.

Jody wrote:

Just as quickly as it is adding O2, it is evaporating CO2. Planted tanks
almost demand a minimal surface agitation filtration to be successful. I'm
afraid your CO2 is not getting used by the plants as much as it could. But
you are getting pearling, so obviously some is staying dissolved. I guess
the point is: it could be better, and maybe if it was better your plants
could compete better.

Regarding nutrients, your nitrates appear reasonable, but you don't know
your phosphates. You should only be feeding once a day, and only as much as
they can eat in five minutes. Goldfish have more mass than other fish and
so, they produce more waste. This could be producing excess phosphates.
Again, watch those feedings. You have nitrogen and phosphorous covered, but
you are not adding any potassium (K). Your plants could be potassium
limited, which means they can't absorb the other nutrients without potassium
present as well. Flourish has some K, but not too much. You might want to
consider finding a supplement with more potassium. Just my two cents.

Jody

"chet" chet-at-surewestDOTnet wrote in message
...
"kush" wrote in message
...
Also, I'm not familiar with the bio-wheel power-filter. Is that a
mechanical filter that accelerates bacterial breakdown by heavily
oxygenating the water?

Yes, it is the bio-wheel power-filter. I have it set to the lowest setting
(I like quiet). According to the literature, it is designed to provide a
high oxygen level to nitrifying bacteria that live on the wheel. It does
not
generate a lot of surface turbulance. I'll measure CO2 again this evening
and get back to you on the numbers

My Rotala indica is one of the fastest growing plant in my tanks. At
comparable light levels, I'd expect to prune four to six inches off it
every
week. Is yours growing that fast?

It has grown some, but more like two inches in a month. Plus it's getting
a
little "leggy". The Amazons, Onion plants, and Anacharis are the
racehorces
in my tank.

How much and how often are you changing your water?

~40%-50% every other week.

Have you added any phosphate-based products to adjust your pH?

None that I am aware of. I have added Seachem "Flourish" and Seachem "Root
Tabs" and Hikari goldfish food.

I'll get you numbers tonight.

Thanks for your help

chet