Well after learning a bit more about RO systems....
When I do change water in my tanks I use 75% RO water to get a PH rate of
about 6.8 and GH of 6-7.
But after a while (about a week) the PH value is going up a bit....
What are the factors of a PH raise it raises up to 7.2 (The hardness stays
the same ,though these too parameters as I understand are not influenced by
one another) ???
10x

gizmo

"gizmo" wrote in message
...
Well after learning a bit more about RO systems....
When I do change water in my tanks I use 75% RO water to get a PH rate of
about 6.8 and GH of 6-7.
But after a while (about a week) the PH value is going up a bit....
What are the factors of a PH raise it raises up to 7.2 (The hardness stays
the same ,though these too parameters as I understand are not influenced
by
one another) ???
10x

gizmo




I cant't really explain the relationship between hardness and pH. It has
been too long since I learned about it. However! This is where I learned
about it...
http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-chem.html
That is an AWESOME article that will explain it very well!

The key word here that you need to become familiar with is... "buffer"

Also, several things can effect your pH in a tank.

Driftwood tends to lower it while certain substrates will raise it (Like
argonite sand or crushed coral etc)
What type of substrate do you have?

If you want a lower pH I would recommend either "Discus Buffer" or "Neutral
Regulator".

Or, you could do CO2 injection if you wanted to keep plants, that will
naturally lower your pH as well.

Also, why exactly are you mixing the RO water? I didnt understand what you
wrote.

~Mort

Well what makes me curious is that just a Day after Changing the water the
PH raises....
I m still looking for factors that might effect the buffering issue..... I
came over the hardness issue due to the RO system and this is one good
thing.
The only problem is tying to maintain a PH value of 6.8-7.0 (I m
optimistic.....)
I do have 4 tanks which in all I have about the same GH and almost the same
PH (7.2-7.4)
In my planted one I use a CO2 system and its fully planted with not many
fish.....
Maybe I 'm missing something about the buffering but are there other
parameters I might look for ?
10x again

gizmo
"Racf" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"gizmo" wrote in message
...
Well after learning a bit more about RO systems....
When I do change water in my tanks I use 75% RO water to get a PH rate
of
about 6.8 and GH of 6-7.
But after a while (about a week) the PH value is going up a bit....
What are the factors of a PH raise it raises up to 7.2 (The hardness
stays
the same ,though these too parameters as I understand are not
influenced by
one another) ???
10x

gizmo




Here is an older post that provides information about pH and kH data,
and a bit of other information that may be interesting:

From: Nestor10 )
Subject: What are optimal soft water characteristics?
Newsgroups: alt.aquaria, rec.aquaria.freshwater.cichlids,
rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc, sci.aquaria
Date: 1998/05/29


The most important equation is the fish you want to keep and their
preference.

I, as do many others, usually recommend trying to keep fish that are
compatible with your prevailing water conditions. This makes for much
easier
fishkeeping all around, and has been reasonably explained many times in
these groups - I don't think too many people want to hear me go through
it
again. This case is a little different, though, as Kelly has already
decided
upon the types of fish she wants and has also taken the initial step of
softening her tap water.

KH refers to the carbonate level of the water with an aquarium having
50
ppm being on the acidic side. Very low KH will lead to swings in the pH
due
to the low buffering capacity of the water. A high KH 200 will tend to
give
an alkaline condition.

This is mostly true, with only a slight error. KH measures alkalinity as
an
equivalent amount of carbonate hardness. Carbonates and bicarbonates are
normally the most prevalent types of buffers found in aquaria, and their
effect tends toward the alkaline side of the pH scale. A buffer,
though,
does not have to be alkaline in nature - there are acidic buffers as
well.
Buffers do their work by absorbing changes to the system, thereby
"buffering" the system from the addition of either an acid or an alkali.
Having a low buffering capacity does not accurately imply an acidic pH,
but
does point out that the system cannot absorb much of an acid or an
alkali
and still remain stable.

KH test kits are most often based on acid titrations. This means that
you
begin with a test sample and slowly add an acid of a known specific
concentration until the pH changes in proportion to each new addition of
the
acid. The buffer will "absorb" the increase in hydrogen ion
concentration as
long as there is buffer available to do so, and after that the free,
unabsorbed hydrogen ions cause that ionic concentration to increase and
along with it a measurable decrease in pH. The color change you see in
the
test itself is merely an acidic indicator - once the alkaline buffer is
exhausted and there is a corresponding increase in hydrogen ions, the
now
acidic solution causes the color to appear. Since the color change only
indicates a increase in acidity, there is no need to try to determine
the
shade or intensity of the color. Hence, no "color chart" for comparison,
as
with so many of the other types of test kits.

By counting the drops of acid until the buffer is used up and the color
change indicates an increase in acidity, we know how many hydrogen ions
have
been added (and absorbed) in order to use up the buffer in the sample.
Knowing the amount of hydrogen ions added and knowing how much carbonate
it
takes to abosrb those ions is simply a straight-up conversion factor.
That's
the biggest reason KH is measured in equivalent amounts of carbonates,
and
the reason it is most often referred to as "alkalinity". If we were
testing
for the capacity of an acidic buffer, like the phosphates, then the
situation would be reversed - an alkali would be added until the
indicator
marked an increase in pH (meaning a sharp decrease in the hydrogen ion
concentration or an increase in the hydroxide ion concentration). Then
we
would probably be calling it a test for "acidity".

GH is a measure of calcium and magnesium dissolved in the water. Hard
water is generally 150 ppm. If GH is 50 ppm, pH levels can have
swings.

GH, or General Hardness, is a measure of the earth alkali compounds
present,
and only considers the cation, or positively-charged portion, of the
molecule. It does not take into account the buffering capacity of the
water,
so its level, either high or low, has no direct bearing on pH
measurements.
The two most prevalent types are, indeed, calcium and magnesium, but
those
elements form combinations that may or may not affect buffering. Thus,
250
ppm of calcium chloride would make the water every bit as hard as 250
ppm of
calcium carbonate, but would add no buffering to the water at all.
Conversely, 250 ppm of sodium carbonate would mean highly-buffered
water,
but its sodium cation wouldn't register on a GH test. Sodium chloride
would
affect the TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) without touching either GH or
KH.

The reasons and mechanics of pH swings in a lightly-buffered tank have
been
the topics of many discussions. It is a pretty straight-forward process,
making even more sense once buffering is understood. Because of the
frequency of the topic, and the fact that I've already rehashed
GH/KH/TDS, I
won't "lecture" on that. If you have questions about it, though, and
can't
quite find the answers in the FAQs or DejaNews archives, then by all
means
ask.

Going back to Kelly's situation,

What are the best settings? I'm thinking of PH being around 6.5-6.7.
I'm
particularly afraid of PH fluctuations (bounce). What other parameters
am I
missing?

The answer to this - especially the "missing parameters" part - has to
be
given with consideration to her previous posting of the same general
natu

I have an Aquarium Pharm water DI unit that I use to purify tap
water...when I add Sodium Bicarbonate...this sends PH through the
roof...

Sodium bicarbonate is a widely-recognized method of increasing the
buffering
in order to stabilize pH. (By the way, you're looking for a minimum
target
of 4 - 5 KH, or 80 - 100 ppm, in order to stabilize the pH.) I would
caution
against the bicarb in this case because of the sodium. It is my
understanding that the API resin softener is one of the units that uses
the
lesser expensive sodium zeolite in order to "soften" the water. It
exchanges
two sodium ions for each calcium or magnesium ion pulled from the water.
Most black water types of fish come from acidic, low-pH waters that are
also
very soft. That includes not only GH and KH, but TDS (especially in the
form
of salts such as those of sodium) as well. So, while the "purified"
water
may not register on a test for hardness, there would still be minerals
present in the form of sodium salts. Adding sodium bicarbonate would
only
compound the problem.

I would suggest increasing the buffering through the use of a
slow-to-dissolve form of calcium carbonate. Some hard limestone
decorations,
partial mixing of the substrate with a calcareous sand/gravel (crushed
coral, limestone, etc) or placing a few sea shells or oyster shell in
either
the tank or the filter might be the way to go. Even better, since you're
also concerned about trace elements, you could try mixing your filtered
water with some unfiltered tapwater to reach the desired hardness.
Determining the mixing ratios is fairly easy - cutting hardness of any
type
is directly proportional. An example would be cutting the hardness by
75% -
one part water at 100 ppm mixed with three parts purified water
(presuming 0
ppp) yields water of 25 ppm.

-Y-

http://www.mindspring.com/~nestor10

".chkr" is for mail-bots

"gizmo" wrote in message
...
Well what makes me curious is that just a Day after Changing the water
the
PH raises....
I m still looking for factors that might effect the buffering
issue..... I
came over the hardness issue due to the RO system and this is one good
thing.
The only problem is tying to maintain a PH value of 6.8-7.0 (I m
optimistic.....)
I do have 4 tanks which in all I have about the same GH and almost the
same
PH (7.2-7.4)
In my planted one I use a CO2 system and its fully planted with not
many
fish.....
Maybe I 'm missing something about the buffering but are there other
parameters I might look for ?
10x again


If you pH is rising, the kH is rising. The usual items to verify is any
decorative rocks and the substrate. Some types of rocks like marble and
limestone will slowly melt raising the kH. There are many types of
rocks that may do this. Verify your materials are not of this type.
The usual method is to apply an acid and see if it fizzles.

In a lot of my tanks I use only RO water. I add tiny amounts of Calcium
Sulfate, Calcium Chloride, and Magnesium Sulfate to insure some
electrolytes. I adjust my pH with plain Baking Soda. My pH ranges from
4.0 - 6.0. Maintaining a precise value has never been my desire. Since
I have really no kH in the change water the pH floats downward as the
bio filter consumes the kH. I just try to manage it between these
values adding tiny amount of baking soda as it approaches the lower end
of my range. I like my water in these tanks to be soft and acidic,
which it is. I am keeping Angels and Discus in this. I also have some
tap water tanks and they are hard and alkaline. Lots of kH settling at
8.2 - 8.4 after the super saturation of CO2 has outgassed. This takes a
few hours after a water change. My tap water reads a pH of 7.2 - 7.4
straight out of the faucet.

RO water has no hardness or buffering. Taking a pH reading is rather
tricky on it. My $75 pH meter tends to read it rather closely to
whatever the pH of the solution I calibrated to. If I calibrate to 4.0,
I tend to get levels just above it. If I calibrate to 7.0, it follows
this closely. Its hard to read since the probe has an influence on it.
The precision of my meter is specified to be .2, which means its not
pinpoint accurate. The accuracy is very limited and is easily
compromised. I understand its short comings and really would not worry
over even a .5 discrepancy. It clearly is most trusted immediately
after a calibration with a solution close to what I intend to measure.
I would probably spend a couple hundred dollars on a better and more
accurate model if I felt that pH was such a vital parameter, but I do
not believe it is. My meter is better than a color change test kit and
that's about it.

After mixing water sources it may take a while before the pH is stable
especially in low buffer environments. RO water will generally take on
the characteristics of the environment its added to, since it has no
buffer. It will dilute the gH and kH, but cannot really affect the pH
directly beyond the dilution affects.

Not sure why you want your pH to be precisely 6.8 - 7.0 all the time?
That would be really tough to do without adding some type of pH
regulating goop into your tank. Fish are certainly not so picky that
such a precise value is required. Some folks are lucky in that their
tap water is at a value deemed perfect so that plain Water changes are
all that is necessary for maintaining a specific value. If my desired
pH was 8.2 - 8.4, I personally would have it made.

I manage my water conditions mainly with a TDS/conductivity meter.
That's how I gauge its relative hardness and filthiness. I use this
meter daily and the pH meter maybe once a month or so. This meter tells
me when and how much water to change.

Good luck.....with your pH issues.

"Racf" wrote in message .net...
"gizmo" wrote in message
...
Well what makes me curious is that just a Day after Changing the water
the
PH raises....
I m still looking for factors that might effect the buffering
issue..... I
came over the hardness issue due to the RO system and this is one good
thing.
The only problem is tying to maintain a PH value of 6.8-7.0 (I m
optimistic.....)
I do have 4 tanks which in all I have about the same GH and almost the
same
PH (7.2-7.4)
In my planted one I use a CO2 system and its fully planted with not
many
fish.....
Maybe I 'm missing something about the buffering but are there other
parameters I might look for ?
10x again

Why do use RO in the first place? Plants do NOT need RO nor do they do
better in RO/softer water.

If you pH is rising, the kH is rising.

Well, removing the acid, in this case the CO2 by the plants, will
cause the pH to rise also. After the lights go off, the pH should drop
back down. This cycle will repeat daily. Unless there's enough CO2
being supplied, this is also could be the issue. pH is generally very
stable in a well run planted tank, but adding enough CO2 is the key.

In a lot of my tanks I use only RO water. I add tiny amounts of
Calcium
Sulfate, Calcium Chloride, and Magnesium Sulfate to insure some
electrolytes. I adjust my pH with plain Baking Soda. My pH ranges from
4.0 - 6.0. Maintaining a precise value has never been my desire.

Amen.

RO water has no hardness or buffering. Taking a pH reading is rather
tricky on it. My $75 pH meter tends to read it rather closely to
whatever the pH of the solution I calibrated to. If I calibrate to 4.0,
I tend to get levels just above it. If I calibrate to 7.0, it follows
this closely. Its hard to read since the probe has an influence on it.
The precision of my meter is specified to be .2, which means its not
pinpoint accurate. The accuracy is very limited and is easily
compromised. I understand its short comings and really would not worry
over even a .5 discrepancy. It clearly is most trusted immediately
after a calibration with a solution close to what I intend to measure.
I would probably spend a couple hundred dollars on a better and more
accurate model if I felt that pH was such a vital parameter, but I do
not believe it is. My meter is better than a color change test kit and
that's about it.

Your problem lies in the super soft water for testing the pH. Pure
water pH probes require specialized pH probes, there is no buffer in
the solution(pure waters). Many reading from very soft water readings
have been found to be in error over the years as many have assumed
these common pH probes are able to accurately measure pH in super
soft/pure waters. I have a very nice ion meter and a nice selection of
probes. But for what you do, the TDS meter works well.

After mixing water sources it may take a while before the pH is stable
especially in low buffer environments. RO water will generally take on
the characteristics of the environment its added to, since it has no
buffer. It will dilute the gH and kH, but cannot really affect the pH
directly beyond the dilution affects.

Same came be said about pH for tap water and water changes.

Not sure why you want your pH to be precisely 6.8 - 7.0 all the time?
That would be really tough to do without adding some type of pH
regulating goop into your tank. Fish are certainly not so picky that
such a precise value is required. Some folks are lucky in that their
tap water is at a value deemed perfect so that plain Water changes are
all that is necessary for maintaining a specific value. If my desired
pH was 8.2 - 8.4, I personally would have it made.

Fully planted tank folks often get told that plants prefer a certain
pH range. So they obsess about pH rather than figuring out how to add
enough CO2 gas. It's all about the CO2 and having enough/slight
excess. pH + KH will give the CO2 reading. Removing all the KH as
mentioned will cause problems. 3-5KH/GH is good, don't go less than
about 2-3KH and 3 for GH.

Discus/Angels etc breed fine at a KH/GH of 3-5, so while a breeding
operation might get higher yields with softer water, bare bottom tanks
etc, planted tanks do quite well and look 1000% better. Healthy
plants= healthy fish.
Generally if you are not keeping specialized fish and breeding them
etc, tap water is fine, even if as hard as can be, examples: KH 15/GH
25 etc.
My plants do quite well. They also do the same in soft water KH 3/GH
5.
But the CO2 level is the same in both tanks/nutrients routine etc.
Read up on pH/KH/CO2 on the web.

Regards,
Tom Barr

It appears this was crossposted all other the place. I was confused for
a while about how adding CO2 to RO was a good idea till I noticed this
was in the plant group. I imagine this is completely confusing to the
guppy folks.

Thanks!
Why do use RO in the first place? Plants do NOT need RO nor do they do
better in RO/softer water.
I have plants that are flourishing in soft water which I was never able to
grow in a non mixed tap water.....
I agree that tap water are ok for plants but my problem is trying to
maintain an Amazon biotope.... which most off the plants/fish require soft
water,
What I do is mixing 1/4 tap water with 3/4 RO water which gives me an output
of soft water and about a PH of 6.8 - Which will last shortly...
Anyway my Cardinals Tetra and Discuss are doing well and So are the plants.
Yes you might say I m am more tending to be a plant Fanatic... and the tank
is a 100 gallon with 4 florescent tubes + 2 of Hagen A-7695 CO2 Natural
Plant System - I do agree that the CO2 could be insufficient. Some plants as
I have read would do better in a PH range of 6.5-7 than in higher....
Maybe this is a lack of CO2.....
Thanks again

gizmo


" wrote in message
om...
"Racf" wrote in message
.net...
"gizmo" wrote in message
...
Well what makes me curious is that just a Day after Changing the water
the
PH raises....
I m still looking for factors that might effect the buffering
issue..... I
came over the hardness issue due to the RO system and this is one good
thing.
The only problem is tying to maintain a PH value of 6.8-7.0 (I m
optimistic.....)
I do have 4 tanks which in all I have about the same GH and almost the
same
PH (7.2-7.4)
In my planted one I use a CO2 system and its fully planted with not
many
fish.....
Maybe I 'm missing something about the buffering but are there other
parameters I might look for ?
10x again

Why do use RO in the first place? Plants do NOT need RO nor do they do
better in RO/softer water.

If you pH is rising, the kH is rising.

Well, removing the acid, in this case the CO2 by the plants, will
cause the pH to rise also. After the lights go off, the pH should drop
back down. This cycle will repeat daily. Unless there's enough CO2
being supplied, this is also could be the issue. pH is generally very
stable in a well run planted tank, but adding enough CO2 is the key.

In a lot of my tanks I use only RO water. I add tiny amounts of
Calcium
Sulfate, Calcium Chloride, and Magnesium Sulfate to insure some
electrolytes. I adjust my pH with plain Baking Soda. My pH ranges from
4.0 - 6.0. Maintaining a precise value has never been my desire.

Amen.

RO water has no hardness or buffering. Taking a pH reading is rather
tricky on it. My $75 pH meter tends to read it rather closely to
whatever the pH of the solution I calibrated to. If I calibrate to 4.0,
I tend to get levels just above it. If I calibrate to 7.0, it follows
this closely. Its hard to read since the probe has an influence on it.
The precision of my meter is specified to be .2, which means its not
pinpoint accurate. The accuracy is very limited and is easily
compromised. I understand its short comings and really would not worry
over even a .5 discrepancy. It clearly is most trusted immediately
after a calibration with a solution close to what I intend to measure.
I would probably spend a couple hundred dollars on a better and more
accurate model if I felt that pH was such a vital parameter, but I do
not believe it is. My meter is better than a color change test kit and
that's about it.

Your problem lies in the super soft water for testing the pH. Pure
water pH probes require specialized pH probes, there is no buffer in
the solution(pure waters). Many reading from very soft water readings
have been found to be in error over the years as many have assumed
these common pH probes are able to accurately measure pH in super
soft/pure waters. I have a very nice ion meter and a nice selection of
probes. But for what you do, the TDS meter works well.

After mixing water sources it may take a while before the pH is stable
especially in low buffer environments. RO water will generally take on
the characteristics of the environment its added to, since it has no
buffer. It will dilute the gH and kH, but cannot really affect the pH
directly beyond the dilution affects.

Same came be said about pH for tap water and water changes.

Not sure why you want your pH to be precisely 6.8 - 7.0 all the time?
That would be really tough to do without adding some type of pH
regulating goop into your tank. Fish are certainly not so picky that
such a precise value is required. Some folks are lucky in that their
tap water is at a value deemed perfect so that plain Water changes are
all that is necessary for maintaining a specific value. If my desired
pH was 8.2 - 8.4, I personally would have it made.

Fully planted tank folks often get told that plants prefer a certain
pH range. So they obsess about pH rather than figuring out how to add
enough CO2 gas. It's all about the CO2 and having enough/slight
excess. pH + KH will give the CO2 reading. Removing all the KH as
mentioned will cause problems. 3-5KH/GH is good, don't go less than
about 2-3KH and 3 for GH.

Discus/Angels etc breed fine at a KH/GH of 3-5, so while a breeding
operation might get higher yields with softer water, bare bottom tanks
etc, planted tanks do quite well and look 1000% better. Healthy
plants= healthy fish.
Generally if you are not keeping specialized fish and breeding them
etc, tap water is fine, even if as hard as can be, examples: KH 15/GH
25 etc.
My plants do quite well. They also do the same in soft water KH 3/GH
5.
But the CO2 level is the same in both tanks/nutrients routine etc.
Read up on pH/KH/CO2 on the web.

Regards,
Tom Barr

On Sat, 6 Sep 2003 10:17:22 +0200, "gizmo" wrote:

I agree that tap water are ok for plants but my problem is trying to
maintain an Amazon biotope.... which most off the plants/fish require soft
water,

NO! Amazon biotope plants do NOT! require soft water. Amazon Biotope
plants are the ones that can survive in soft water, but they do not
require it.

Think about it, what could they possibly require in soft water? Soft
water is water that doesn't have things like Calcium and Magnesium.
All plants need calcium and magnesium.

Amazon plants are considered soft water plants just because they can
grow despite the soft water. They certainly don't require it.

Claus from Tropica showed amazing slides from an expedition to South
America. We saw all the usual South American "soft water" plants
growing in a substrate of pure calcium carbonate. The water was very
hard, with high levels of everything.


Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua

There is some considerable confusion in this thread.

Firstly, regarding gizmos question:

The two mose likely reasons for your pH rising:
1) you may use water supersaturated with CO2 (water from wells often
is). As the CO2 is released into the atmosphere, pH rises.
2) you have some limestone in your tank, perhaps in the gravel, or
perhaps you have seashells in there? I think this is probably the
reason for your pH rise, as limestone tends to rais pH to about 7.5.
Theoretically limestone can raise pH all the way to 8.3, but the
reaction becomes slower the closer to 8.3 you get, so in practice the
endpoint is, roughly, 7.5. If you want to go higher than that, you can
use bicarbonate to get up to 8.3.

Over to some of the other issues here...

* KH in an aquaristic context is usually the same as alkalinity. This
because most test kits function by acid titration, so what's actually
measured is alkalinity. If you add phosphate buffer to an aquarium,
that will add to the alkalinity, it will add to the reading you get
from a KH test kit.

* A quoted message stated that to measure the effect of acidic buffers
such as phosphate buffer one'd need to titrate with base instead of
acid. That is only partly true. A buffer resists all pH movement, up
as well as down, and phosphate buffer will add to the alkalinity
measurement also when doing an acid titration provided the endpoint is
below the set pH for the buffer (i.e. phosphate buffer will show up on
a KH test).

Well this is encouraging I must add!
But aren't the Amazon fish require soft water (Discuss, etc.)
And isn't the PH level of 7.0 is better for some Amazonian plants - as I was
reading...
I guess Clause eliminates this problem...
10x

gizmo

"Chuck Gadd" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 6 Sep 2003 10:17:22 +0200, "gizmo" wrote:

I agree that tap water are ok for plants but my problem is trying to
maintain an Amazon biotope.... which most off the plants/fish require
soft
water,

NO! Amazon biotope plants do NOT! require soft water. Amazon Biotope
plants are the ones that can survive in soft water, but they do not
require it.

Think about it, what could they possibly require in soft water? Soft
water is water that doesn't have things like Calcium and Magnesium.
All plants need calcium and magnesium.

Amazon plants are considered soft water plants just because they can
grow despite the soft water. They certainly don't require it.

Claus from Tropica showed amazing slides from an expedition to South
America. We saw all the usual South American "soft water" plants
growing in a substrate of pure calcium carbonate. The water was very
hard, with high levels of everything.


Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua

"gizmo" wrote in message ...
Well this is encouraging I must add!
But aren't the Amazon fish require soft water (Discuss, etc.)
And isn't the PH level of 7.0 is better for some Amazonian plants - as I was
reading...
I guess Clause eliminates this problem...
10x

gizmo

Fish vary in what's best for them in terms of total dissolved solids
(TDS). The more pure the water, the faster water will osmose into the
fish, where their kidneys must then pump it back out. Some fish (e.g.
platys) expect a high TDS so that this water intake will be slow and
their kidneys won't work too hard. Other fish expect TDS to be low and
need this rapid osmosis for good health.

So the question is not one of hardness in the sense of dissolved
calcium and magnesium, but rather a question of dissolved everything.

In the case of plants, there have been a variety of studies showing
that most "sof****er" plants do better in a nutrient-rich environment.
The reason we don't see them in those environments normally is that
they've evolved into slower-growing plants in order to survive in
nutrient-depleted waters. So, were you to transplant a sof****er plant
into a hardwater stream, it would be quickly overshadowed by hardwater
plants. By contrast, a hardwater plant transplanted into sof****er
will likely die.

In short, pretty much all aquarium plants will grow better in
hardwater. Some won't grow in sof****er at all. With pruning, you can
overcome the evolutionary difference that would favor the hardwater
plants.

- Jim

Thanks.
So in general is it recommended to grow plants in hard water (In my case tap
water)
One can always see some water quality in many books/catalog of beautiful
planted tanks with pretty soft water/steady PH and so. And in my experience
I was able to grow some really soft water plants pretty well..... would they
do good in tap water and just good lighting ?

gizmo

"Jim Seidman" wrote in message
m...
"gizmo" wrote in message
...
Well this is encouraging I must add!
But aren't the Amazon fish require soft water (Discuss, etc.)
And isn't the PH level of 7.0 is better for some Amazonian plants - as I
was
reading...
I guess Clause eliminates this problem...
10x

gizmo

Fish vary in what's best for them in terms of total dissolved solids
(TDS). The more pure the water, the faster water will osmose into the
fish, where their kidneys must then pump it back out. Some fish (e.g.
platys) expect a high TDS so that this water intake will be slow and
their kidneys won't work too hard. Other fish expect TDS to be low and
need this rapid osmosis for good health.

So the question is not one of hardness in the sense of dissolved
calcium and magnesium, but rather a question of dissolved everything.

In the case of plants, there have been a variety of studies showing
that most "sof****er" plants do better in a nutrient-rich environment.
The reason we don't see them in those environments normally is that
they've evolved into slower-growing plants in order to survive in
nutrient-depleted waters. So, were you to transplant a sof****er plant
into a hardwater stream, it would be quickly overshadowed by hardwater
plants. By contrast, a hardwater plant transplanted into sof****er
will likely die.

In short, pretty much all aquarium plants will grow better in
hardwater. Some won't grow in sof****er at all. With pruning, you can
overcome the evolutionary difference that would favor the hardwater
plants.

- Jim

"gizmo" wrote in message .. .
Well after learning a bit more about RO systems....
When I do change water in my tanks I use 75% RO water to get a PH rate of
about 6.8 and GH of 6-7.
But after a while (about a week) the PH value is going up a bit....
What are the factors of a PH raise it raises up to 7.2 (The hardness stays
the same ,though these too parameters as I understand are not influenced by
one another) ???
10x

gizmo

well giz i was just wandering through this thread and i read that you
were having some problems understanding the ph in an aquarium. i
didn't see what type of fish and plants you were trying to keep other
then the mention of South american and the use of R O water.. the
climbing ph after a week is probably the result of the buffering
capacity of the water your useing to achive gh of 7.
i kept discus and a lot of other south americans for a long time our
source water was gh 20 and ph of 7.8 not good.. so i would use bufferd
compounds to bring the ph down and the use of R O to help with the
hardness..many companies make buffers look for them at your local
retailer. if they don't carry them look to a store that has a better
inventory of esoteric supplies. your plants will look more vibrant and
do better with the addition of plant nutrients from the store as well
in most cases fish poop and it's derivatives do not supply enough of
what the plants need most.. buy some good books start your own library
and read alot, often the info that comes from the net is from well
meaning but not always the most knowledgeable people....so get some
books...

Well 10x for the info digger....
Not me nor my plants nor my fish suffer from PH of 7.2-7.4.
I also compete the hardness issue by mixing R.O water with tap water - I get
medium soft water which I m happy of.
Yes I do take care of my plants with daily fertilizers as well with aquatic
plants compounds in the gravel in order to feed the roots...
Yes I do use CO2 system (maybe not enough of it but I have 2 Naturafin
systems + 4 light tubes which provide 144watts of light.
Yes I might have a buffering problem, no I don't know what my KH is but what
bothers me most is that PH rises just after a short while.
But I try to maintain partial water change mixed with tap water to insure
buffering.
I did my homework (most of them) and did some reading....But I just can't
figure out why my PH rises and then stays stable (plants and fish do seem
happy)
Another problem I have is my Amazon sword plant - not growing and maybe
start showing symptoms of chlorosis..... I might get some jobe spikes for
it.
I m still open for further suggestions.

Gizmo

"digger" wrote in message
om...
"gizmo" wrote in message
.. .
Well after learning a bit more about RO systems....
When I do change water in my tanks I use 75% RO water to get a PH rate
of
about 6.8 and GH of 6-7.
But after a while (about a week) the PH value is going up a bit....
What are the factors of a PH raise it raises up to 7.2 (The hardness
stays
the same ,though these too parameters as I understand are not influenced
by
one another) ???
10x

gizmo

well giz i was just wandering through this thread and i read that you
were having some problems understanding the ph in an aquarium. i
didn't see what type of fish and plants you were trying to keep other
then the mention of South american and the use of R O water.. the
climbing ph after a week is probably the result of the buffering
capacity of the water your useing to achive gh of 7.
i kept discus and a lot of other south americans for a long time our
source water was gh 20 and ph of 7.8 not good.. so i would use bufferd
compounds to bring the ph down and the use of R O to help with the
hardness..many companies make buffers look for them at your local
retailer. if they don't carry them look to a store that has a better
inventory of esoteric supplies. your plants will look more vibrant and
do better with the addition of plant nutrients from the store as well
in most cases fish poop and it's derivatives do not supply enough of
what the plants need most.. buy some good books start your own library
and read alot, often the info that comes from the net is from well
meaning but not always the most knowledgeable people....so get some
books...

The KH will reveal your problem!
Cris

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 20:41:58 +0200, "gizmo" wrote:

Yes I might have a buffering problem, no I don't know what my KH is but what
bothers me most is that PH rises just after a short while.