Hobby Ethics
 

I live in a state where many fresh water plants are illegal, e.g.
Anacharis and milfoil. There are also several species of aquatic
animals that are illegal, e.g. ghost shrimp, fresh water snails, and
killifish (a HUGE fine if your caught with killies).

I've been wrestling with the ethics of buying an illegal animal on
line (ghost shrimp), and wonder what other people think about this in
regards to both plants and animals.

Any thoughts?

Hobby Ethics
 

Joseph wrote:
Any thoughts?

There's usually a *very* good reason for certain plants and animals to
be illegal: if they escape into the environment, they reproduce
uncontrollably and cause the death of native species. This is not good.
Please don't take the risk.

--
Victor Martinez
Send your spam he
Email me he

Hobby Ethics
 

Joseph wrote:

I live in a state where many fresh water plants are illegal, e.g.
Anacharis and milfoil. There are also several species of aquatic
animals that are illegal, e.g. ghost shrimp, fresh water snails, and
killifish (a HUGE fine if your caught with killies).

What state, Maine? I wouldn't have thought they'd consider these
things to be a danger, since most aquarium species are warm water.

I've been wrestling with the ethics of buying an illegal animal on
line (ghost shrimp), and wonder what other people think about this in
regards to both plants and animals.

Do you have a link to the formal state rules about this? Sometimes
these laws only prohibit commercial sales or are oddly written to
allow exceptions.

As for ethics vs the law, well, the two rarely intercept :)


--
www.ericschreiber.com

Hobby Ethics
 

"Eric Schreiber" wrote in message
...
Joseph wrote:

I live in a state where many fresh water plants are illegal, e.g.
Anacharis and milfoil. There are also several species of aquatic
animals that are illegal, e.g. ghost shrimp, fresh water snails, and
killifish (a HUGE fine if your caught with killies).

What state, Maine? I wouldn't have thought they'd consider these
things to be a danger, since most aquarium species are warm water.

I've been wrestling with the ethics of buying an illegal animal on
line (ghost shrimp), and wonder what other people think about this in
regards to both plants and animals.

Do you have a link to the formal state rules about this? Sometimes
these laws only prohibit commercial sales or are oddly written to
allow exceptions.

As for ethics vs the law, well, the two rarely intercept :)


--
www.ericschreiber.com

This is a very sticky question. You could observe the legal requirements
by purchasing similar looking (but legal) plants, shrimp and snails, and
then address the ethical concerns by handling them responsibly, ensuring
they never get out into your environment (regardless if they would or
wouldn't survive). However, legislation on Killies might be too broad to
find a similar but legal substitute, so you might have to go to a
different (legal) fish. How about exploring the legality of keeping home
grown darters and minnows?

I'm curious as to how this will evolve in the future. If your
environment could be adversely affected by something like Killies, could
White Cloud minnows be potentially banned as well? Will Guppies be next?
Canada, Russia and northern Europe may become the last bastions of legal
hobbyists in the future ;~)

NetMax, living up in Canada eh? ;~)

Hobby Ethics
 

No state or government has the right to interfere in a person's private business, unless it DIRECTLY
harms another INDIVIDUAL. God, what is this country coming to? FIGHT THE OPRESSION!

Hobby Ethics
 

Joseph wrote in message
...
I live in a state where many fresh water plants are illegal, e.g.
Anacharis and milfoil. There are also several species of aquatic
animals that are illegal, e.g. ghost shrimp, fresh water snails, and
killifish (a HUGE fine if your caught with killies).

I've been wrestling with the ethics of buying an illegal animal on
line (ghost shrimp), and wonder what other people think about this in
regards to both plants and animals.

Any thoughts?

Ghosties aren't worth it. They're one of the least interesting things you
could ever get fined for.

Hobby Ethics
 

"LtWolfe" wrote in message
. ..
No state or government has the right to interfere in a person's private
business, unless it DIRECTLY
harms another INDIVIDUAL. God, what is this country coming to? FIGHT THE
OPRESSION!



I live in a land infested with Muscovy Ducks, toxic Bufo Toads, and
Melaleuca trees are soaking up my Everglades.... all non natives, all
introduced by folks who thought they knew better.


--
Toni
http://www.cearbhaill.com/discus.htm

Hobby Ethics
 

I am well aware of the exotic problems in my current state of residence. Why do you seem so quick to
take away MY right? Because of what someone ELSE did? Why should I be punished for the acts of
others? Does that seem right? Besides, there are very few exotics doing well, compared to the
number in the hobby, and natives in FL. A lot of exotics are from fish farm releases (I'm sure YOU
don't buy from fish farms, right?). Bottom line, I am responsible for MY actions. YOU are responsible
for YOUR actions. Let's keep it like that okay? (or rather, get it back like that).

LtWolfe

"Toni" wrote in
link.net:


"LtWolfe" wrote in message
. ..
No state or government has the right to interfere in a person's
private
business, unless it DIRECTLY
harms another INDIVIDUAL. God, what is this country coming to? FIGHT
THE
OPRESSION!



I live in a land infested with Muscovy Ducks, toxic Bufo Toads, and
Melaleuca trees are soaking up my Everglades.... all non natives, all
introduced by folks who thought they knew better.

Hobby Ethics
 

and at this point i think this should be cross-posted to alt.politics and
eliminated from the rec.aquaria* groups.


"LtWolfe" wrote...
"Toni" wrote:
"LtWolfe" wrote...
No state or government has the right to interfere in a person's
private business, unless it DIRECTLY
harms another INDIVIDUAL. God, what is this country coming to? FIGHT
THE OPRESSION!

Hobby Ethics
 

"NetMax" wrote:

This is a very sticky question. You could observe the legal requirements
by purchasing similar looking (but legal) plants, shrimp and snails, and
then address the ethical concerns by handling them responsibly, ensuring
they never get out into your environment (regardless if they would or
wouldn't survive).

The ethics are fairly universal. Know the requirements of your fish
before you buy them, provide them with the best environment you can,
and never, ever release them into the wild.

The legal aspects are much trickier, and I suspect that even the
enforcing agencies don't really understand them. Sometimes it's
illegal to import or sell a species, but if you can find someone
locally who already has it you can get offspring (or cuttings) from
them.

NetMax, living up in Canada eh? ;~)

Apart from the weather, Canada has started to look more and more
attractive in recent years. And you guys know the proper way to treat
French Fries.

--
www.ericschreiber.com

Hobby Ethics
 

"Dunter Powries" wrote:

Ghosties aren't worth it. They're one of the least interesting things you
could ever get fined for.

Hey! I like my ghost shrimp! And they like me, I'm certain of it.



--
www.ericschreiber.com

Hobby Ethics
 

Hey Joeseph, what state do you live in? I live in Virginia and have
not found ANY stores in my area, Virginia Beach, that carry Killifish.
And have found ghost shirmp ONCE.

Evan

Hobby Ethics
 

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 21:48:18 GMT, LtWolfe wrote:

Right. And I should be allowed to own my very own thermonuclear bomb
because I will be responsible with it.

I am well aware of the exotic problems in my current state of residence. Why do you seem so quick to
take away MY right? Because of what someone ELSE did? Why should I be punished for the acts of
others? Does that seem right? Besides, there are very few exotics doing well, compared to the
number in the hobby, and natives in FL. A lot of exotics are from fish farm releases (I'm sure YOU
don't buy from fish farms, right?). Bottom line, I am responsible for MY actions. YOU are responsible
for YOUR actions. Let's keep it like that okay? (or rather, get it back like that).

LtWolfe

"Toni" wrote in
hlink.net:


"LtWolfe" wrote in message
. ..
No state or government has the right to interfere in a person's
private
business, unless it DIRECTLY
harms another INDIVIDUAL. God, what is this country coming to? FIGHT
THE
OPRESSION!



I live in a land infested with Muscovy Ducks, toxic Bufo Toads, and
Melaleuca trees are soaking up my Everglades.... all non natives, all
introduced by folks who thought they knew better.

Hobby Ethics
 

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 21:48:18 GMT, LtWolfe wrote:

Right. And I should be allowed to own my very own thermonuclear bomb
because I will be responsible with it.

I am well aware of the exotic problems in my current state of residence. Why do you seem so quick to
take away MY right? Because of what someone ELSE did? Why should I be punished for the acts of
others? Does that seem right? Besides, there are very few exotics doing well, compared to the
number in the hobby, and natives in FL. A lot of exotics are from fish farm releases (I'm sure YOU
don't buy from fish farms, right?). Bottom line, I am responsible for MY actions. YOU are responsible
for YOUR actions. Let's keep it like that okay? (or rather, get it back like that).

LtWolfe

"Toni" wrote in
hlink.net:


"LtWolfe" wrote in message
. ..
No state or government has the right to interfere in a person's
private
business, unless it DIRECTLY
harms another INDIVIDUAL. God, what is this country coming to? FIGHT
THE
OPRESSION!



I live in a land infested with Muscovy Ducks, toxic Bufo Toads, and
Melaleuca trees are soaking up my Everglades.... all non natives, all
introduced by folks who thought they knew better.

Hobby Ethics
 

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 21:48:18 GMT, LtWolfe wrote:

Right. And I should be allowed to own my very own thermonuclear bomb
because I will be responsible with it.

I am well aware of the exotic problems in my current state of residence. Why do you seem so quick to
take away MY right? Because of what someone ELSE did? Why should I be punished for the acts of
others? Does that seem right? Besides, there are very few exotics doing well, compared to the
number in the hobby, and natives in FL. A lot of exotics are from fish farm releases (I'm sure YOU
don't buy from fish farms, right?). Bottom line, I am responsible for MY actions. YOU are responsible
for YOUR actions. Let's keep it like that okay? (or rather, get it back like that).

LtWolfe

"Toni" wrote in
hlink.net:


"LtWolfe" wrote in message
. ..
No state or government has the right to interfere in a person's
private
business, unless it DIRECTLY
harms another INDIVIDUAL. God, what is this country coming to? FIGHT
THE
OPRESSION!



I live in a land infested with Muscovy Ducks, toxic Bufo Toads, and
Melaleuca trees are soaking up my Everglades.... all non natives, all
introduced by folks who thought they knew better.

Hobby Ethics
 

LtWolfe wrote in
:

I am well aware of the exotic problems in my current state of
residence.

Apparently not. Walking catfish alone have decimated your natural ecology,
and from some of the studies I have seen nearly 40% of Florida's fauna is
introduced species.

Why do you seem so quick to take away MY right?

What right? I may have missed the Right to Keep Exotic Pets in the
Constitution.

Because of
what someone ELSE did? Why should I be punished for the acts of
others? Does that seem right?

Hi there, welcome to the real world. Does it seem "right" to you that a
natural ecology should be entirely usurped because you want to keep
plant/animal X? Are your rights more important than entire sections of the
ecosystem your region depends on?

Besides, there are very few exotics
doing well, compared to the number in the hobby, and natives in FL.

You are very obviously not aware of the problem with exotics in your state
if you think this is the case.

http://www.swfwmd.state.fl.us/waterman/apm/apm.htm , to start with.
http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/Galler.../WalkingCatfis
h.html is another.

Bottom line, I am responsible for MY
actions. YOU are responsible for YOUR actions. Let's keep it like that
okay? (or rather, get it back like that).

Yes, let's. So be responsible, and follow the law, which is backed by the
Fish and Game Dept who obviously know much more about the natural ecology
of the area.

You may not think you are releasing these animals or plants in the wild,
and yet you may be doing so inadvertently. You may be flushing invertebrate
or fish eggs with your water changes. You may also be releasing spores from
spore-breeding plants (example: duckweed).

The bottom line is that you have no "right" to make decisions regarding the
Florida ecosystem, nor do you have any "right" to own any kind of aquarium
fish or plant.

~Empty
--
'You're not friends. You'll never be friends. You'll be in love till it
kills you both. You'll fight, and you'll shag, and you'll hate each other
till it makes you quiver, but you'll never be friends. Love isn't brains,
children, it's blood... blood screaming inside you to work its will. I may
be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it.'
Spike

Hobby Ethics
 

LtWolfe wrote in
:

I am well aware of the exotic problems in my current state of
residence.

Apparently not. Walking catfish alone have decimated your natural ecology,
and from some of the studies I have seen nearly 40% of Florida's fauna is
introduced species.

Why do you seem so quick to take away MY right?

What right? I may have missed the Right to Keep Exotic Pets in the
Constitution.

Because of
what someone ELSE did? Why should I be punished for the acts of
others? Does that seem right?

Hi there, welcome to the real world. Does it seem "right" to you that a
natural ecology should be entirely usurped because you want to keep
plant/animal X? Are your rights more important than entire sections of the
ecosystem your region depends on?

Besides, there are very few exotics
doing well, compared to the number in the hobby, and natives in FL.

You are very obviously not aware of the problem with exotics in your state
if you think this is the case.

http://www.swfwmd.state.fl.us/waterman/apm/apm.htm , to start with.
http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/Galler.../WalkingCatfis
h.html is another.

Bottom line, I am responsible for MY
actions. YOU are responsible for YOUR actions. Let's keep it like that
okay? (or rather, get it back like that).

Yes, let's. So be responsible, and follow the law, which is backed by the
Fish and Game Dept who obviously know much more about the natural ecology
of the area.

You may not think you are releasing these animals or plants in the wild,
and yet you may be doing so inadvertently. You may be flushing invertebrate
or fish eggs with your water changes. You may also be releasing spores from
spore-breeding plants (example: duckweed).

The bottom line is that you have no "right" to make decisions regarding the
Florida ecosystem, nor do you have any "right" to own any kind of aquarium
fish or plant.

~Empty
--
'You're not friends. You'll never be friends. You'll be in love till it
kills you both. You'll fight, and you'll shag, and you'll hate each other
till it makes you quiver, but you'll never be friends. Love isn't brains,
children, it's blood... blood screaming inside you to work its will. I may
be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it.'
Spike

Hobby Ethics
 

LtWolfe wrote in
:

I am well aware of the exotic problems in my current state of
residence.

Apparently not. Walking catfish alone have decimated your natural ecology,
and from some of the studies I have seen nearly 40% of Florida's fauna is
introduced species.

Why do you seem so quick to take away MY right?

What right? I may have missed the Right to Keep Exotic Pets in the
Constitution.

Because of
what someone ELSE did? Why should I be punished for the acts of
others? Does that seem right?

Hi there, welcome to the real world. Does it seem "right" to you that a
natural ecology should be entirely usurped because you want to keep
plant/animal X? Are your rights more important than entire sections of the
ecosystem your region depends on?

Besides, there are very few exotics
doing well, compared to the number in the hobby, and natives in FL.

You are very obviously not aware of the problem with exotics in your state
if you think this is the case.

http://www.swfwmd.state.fl.us/waterman/apm/apm.htm , to start with.
http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/Galler.../WalkingCatfis
h.html is another.

Bottom line, I am responsible for MY
actions. YOU are responsible for YOUR actions. Let's keep it like that
okay? (or rather, get it back like that).

Yes, let's. So be responsible, and follow the law, which is backed by the
Fish and Game Dept who obviously know much more about the natural ecology
of the area.

You may not think you are releasing these animals or plants in the wild,
and yet you may be doing so inadvertently. You may be flushing invertebrate
or fish eggs with your water changes. You may also be releasing spores from
spore-breeding plants (example: duckweed).

The bottom line is that you have no "right" to make decisions regarding the
Florida ecosystem, nor do you have any "right" to own any kind of aquarium
fish or plant.

~Empty
--
'You're not friends. You'll never be friends. You'll be in love till it
kills you both. You'll fight, and you'll shag, and you'll hate each other
till it makes you quiver, but you'll never be friends. Love isn't brains,
children, it's blood... blood screaming inside you to work its will. I may
be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it.'
Spike

Hobby Ethics
 

LtWolfe wrote in
:

I am well aware of the exotic problems in my current state of
residence.

Apparently not. Walking catfish alone have decimated your natural ecology,
and from some of the studies I have seen nearly 40% of Florida's fauna is
introduced species.

Why do you seem so quick to take away MY right?

What right? I may have missed the Right to Keep Exotic Pets in the
Constitution.

Because of
what someone ELSE did? Why should I be punished for the acts of
others? Does that seem right?

Hi there, welcome to the real world. Does it seem "right" to you that a
natural ecology should be entirely usurped because you want to keep
plant/animal X? Are your rights more important than entire sections of the
ecosystem your region depends on?

Besides, there are very few exotics
doing well, compared to the number in the hobby, and natives in FL.

You are very obviously not aware of the problem with exotics in your state
if you think this is the case.

http://www.swfwmd.state.fl.us/waterman/apm/apm.htm , to start with.
http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/Galler.../WalkingCatfis
h.html is another.

Bottom line, I am responsible for MY
actions. YOU are responsible for YOUR actions. Let's keep it like that
okay? (or rather, get it back like that).

Yes, let's. So be responsible, and follow the law, which is backed by the
Fish and Game Dept who obviously know much more about the natural ecology
of the area.

You may not think you are releasing these animals or plants in the wild,
and yet you may be doing so inadvertently. You may be flushing invertebrate
or fish eggs with your water changes. You may also be releasing spores from
spore-breeding plants (example: duckweed).

The bottom line is that you have no "right" to make decisions regarding the
Florida ecosystem, nor do you have any "right" to own any kind of aquarium
fish or plant.

~Empty
--
'You're not friends. You'll never be friends. You'll be in love till it
kills you both. You'll fight, and you'll shag, and you'll hate each other
till it makes you quiver, but you'll never be friends. Love isn't brains,
children, it's blood... blood screaming inside you to work its will. I may
be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it.'
Spike

Hobby Ethics
 

LtWolfe wrote in
:

I am well aware of the exotic problems in my current state of
residence.

Apparently not. Walking catfish alone have decimated your natural ecology,
and from some of the studies I have seen nearly 40% of Florida's fauna is
introduced species.

Why do you seem so quick to take away MY right?

What right? I may have missed the Right to Keep Exotic Pets in the
Constitution.

Because of
what someone ELSE did? Why should I be punished for the acts of
others? Does that seem right?

Hi there, welcome to the real world. Does it seem "right" to you that a
natural ecology should be entirely usurped because you want to keep
plant/animal X? Are your rights more important than entire sections of the
ecosystem your region depends on?

Besides, there are very few exotics
doing well, compared to the number in the hobby, and natives in FL.

You are very obviously not aware of the problem with exotics in your state
if you think this is the case.

http://www.swfwmd.state.fl.us/waterman/apm/apm.htm , to start with.
http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/Galler.../WalkingCatfis
h.html is another.

Bottom line, I am responsible for MY
actions. YOU are responsible for YOUR actions. Let's keep it like that
okay? (or rather, get it back like that).

Yes, let's. So be responsible, and follow the law, which is backed by the
Fish and Game Dept who obviously know much more about the natural ecology
of the area.

You may not think you are releasing these animals or plants in the wild,
and yet you may be doing so inadvertently. You may be flushing invertebrate
or fish eggs with your water changes. You may also be releasing spores from
spore-breeding plants (example: duckweed).

The bottom line is that you have no "right" to make decisions regarding the
Florida ecosystem, nor do you have any "right" to own any kind of aquarium
fish or plant.

~Empty
--
'You're not friends. You'll never be friends. You'll be in love till it
kills you both. You'll fight, and you'll shag, and you'll hate each other
till it makes you quiver, but you'll never be friends. Love isn't brains,
children, it's blood... blood screaming inside you to work its will. I may
be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it.'
Spike

Hobby Ethics
 

LtWolfe wrote in
:

I am well aware of the exotic problems in my current state of
residence.

Apparently not. Walking catfish alone have decimated your natural ecology,
and from some of the studies I have seen nearly 40% of Florida's fauna is
introduced species.

Why do you seem so quick to take away MY right?

What right? I may have missed the Right to Keep Exotic Pets in the
Constitution.

Because of
what someone ELSE did? Why should I be punished for the acts of
others? Does that seem right?

Hi there, welcome to the real world. Does it seem "right" to you that a
natural ecology should be entirely usurped because you want to keep
plant/animal X? Are your rights more important than entire sections of the
ecosystem your region depends on?

Besides, there are very few exotics
doing well, compared to the number in the hobby, and natives in FL.

You are very obviously not aware of the problem with exotics in your state
if you think this is the case.

http://www.swfwmd.state.fl.us/waterman/apm/apm.htm , to start with.
http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/Galler.../WalkingCatfis
h.html is another.

Bottom line, I am responsible for MY
actions. YOU are responsible for YOUR actions. Let's keep it like that
okay? (or rather, get it back like that).

Yes, let's. So be responsible, and follow the law, which is backed by the
Fish and Game Dept who obviously know much more about the natural ecology
of the area.

You may not think you are releasing these animals or plants in the wild,
and yet you may be doing so inadvertently. You may be flushing invertebrate
or fish eggs with your water changes. You may also be releasing spores from
spore-breeding plants (example: duckweed).

The bottom line is that you have no "right" to make decisions regarding the
Florida ecosystem, nor do you have any "right" to own any kind of aquarium
fish or plant.

~Empty
--
'You're not friends. You'll never be friends. You'll be in love till it
kills you both. You'll fight, and you'll shag, and you'll hate each other
till it makes you quiver, but you'll never be friends. Love isn't brains,
children, it's blood... blood screaming inside you to work its will. I may
be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it.'
Spike

Hobby Ethics
 

LtWolfe wrote in
:

I am well aware of the exotic problems in my current state of
residence.

Apparently not. Walking catfish alone have decimated your natural ecology,
and from some of the studies I have seen nearly 40% of Florida's fauna is
introduced species.

Why do you seem so quick to take away MY right?

What right? I may have missed the Right to Keep Exotic Pets in the
Constitution.

Because of
what someone ELSE did? Why should I be punished for the acts of
others? Does that seem right?

Hi there, welcome to the real world. Does it seem "right" to you that a
natural ecology should be entirely usurped because you want to keep
plant/animal X? Are your rights more important than entire sections of the
ecosystem your region depends on?

Besides, there are very few exotics
doing well, compared to the number in the hobby, and natives in FL.

You are very obviously not aware of the problem with exotics in your state
if you think this is the case.

http://www.swfwmd.state.fl.us/waterman/apm/apm.htm , to start with.
http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/Galler.../WalkingCatfis
h.html is another.

Bottom line, I am responsible for MY
actions. YOU are responsible for YOUR actions. Let's keep it like that
okay? (or rather, get it back like that).

Yes, let's. So be responsible, and follow the law, which is backed by the
Fish and Game Dept who obviously know much more about the natural ecology
of the area.

You may not think you are releasing these animals or plants in the wild,
and yet you may be doing so inadvertently. You may be flushing invertebrate
or fish eggs with your water changes. You may also be releasing spores from
spore-breeding plants (example: duckweed).

The bottom line is that you have no "right" to make decisions regarding the
Florida ecosystem, nor do you have any "right" to own any kind of aquarium
fish or plant.

~Empty
--
'You're not friends. You'll never be friends. You'll be in love till it
kills you both. You'll fight, and you'll shag, and you'll hate each other
till it makes you quiver, but you'll never be friends. Love isn't brains,
children, it's blood... blood screaming inside you to work its will. I may
be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it.'
Spike

Hobby Ethics
 

"Empty" wrote in message
...
LtWolfe wrote in
:

Why do you seem so quick to take away MY right?

What right? I may have missed the Right to Keep Exotic Pets in the
Constitution.


That's because rights exist whether or not they're found
in some Big List of Rights.


The bottom line is that you have no "right" to make decisions
regarding the Florida ecosystem, nor do you have any "right"
to own any kind of aquarium fish or plant.


LtWolfe does indeed have the right to own any kind
of aquarium fish or plant, even though there may be
some reason that he should not exercise that right.

It appears that PETA has found yet another unwitting stooge.

Hobby Ethics
 

Thank you Letrol. You took the words right out of my mouth.

Hobby Ethics
 

Thank you Letrol. You took the words right out of my mouth.

Hobby Ethics
 

LtWolfe wrote in message
. ..
Thank you Letrol. You took the words right out of my mouth.

I, personally, have no problem with the concept of personal responsibility.
We should all accept and be expected to accept responsibility for the
consequences of our own decisions, actions, and failures to act.

If you dick-up an entire ecosystem, a $500 suspended fine from a district
court is NOT going to satisfy me.

Hobby Ethics
 

LtWolfe wrote in message
. ..
Thank you Letrol. You took the words right out of my mouth.

I, personally, have no problem with the concept of personal responsibility.
We should all accept and be expected to accept responsibility for the
consequences of our own decisions, actions, and failures to act.

If you dick-up an entire ecosystem, a $500 suspended fine from a district
court is NOT going to satisfy me.

Hobby Ethics
 

"Le Trôle" wrote in
:

What right? I may have missed the Right to Keep Exotic Pets in the
Constitution.

That's because rights exist whether or not they're found
in some Big List of Rights.

Yes, the right to keep exotic pets is a basic human right. In fact,
I think there was something about that in the Geneva Convention. Someone
alert the UN- Florida Fish and Game is oppressing LtWolfe!

The bottom line is that you have no "right" to make decisions
regarding the Florida ecosystem, nor do you have any "right"
to own any kind of aquarium fish or plant.

LtWolfe does indeed have the right to own any kind
of aquarium fish or plant, even though there may be
some reason that he should not exercise that right.

I suppose, then, that I have the right to dump 100 gallons of used motor
oil in the drainage tunnel outside my house?

Your rights end when someone else's begin, and the well-being of the
ecosystem that WE ALL depend on to LIVE outweighs your theoritical right to
keep something you find interesting.

It appears that PETA has found yet another unwitting stooge.

What is this babble? I don't much like PETA, and this has NOTHING to do
with PETA. Call me the EPA's stooge if you have to fit me somewhere into
your tinfoil-hat conspiracy theories.

I am, however, an aquarist with some knowledge of the delicate balance of
ecosystems and morals enough to know there are things more important than
my whims or desires.

~Empty
--
'You're not friends. You'll never be friends. You'll be in love till it
kills you both. You'll fight, and you'll shag, and you'll hate each other
till it makes you quiver, but you'll never be friends. Love isn't brains,
children, it's blood... blood screaming inside you to work its will. I may
be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it.'
Spike

Hobby Ethics
 

"Dunter Powries" wrote in
:

I, personally, have no problem with the concept of personal
responsibility. We should all accept and be expected to accept
responsibility for the consequences of our own decisions, actions, and
failures to act.

Agreed!

If you dick-up an entire ecosystem, a $500 suspended fine from a
district court is NOT going to satisfy me.

Doubly agreed!

I actually think that a crime of that nature warrants jail time.

~Empty
--
'You're not friends. You'll never be friends. You'll be in love till it
kills you both. You'll fight, and you'll shag, and you'll hate each other
till it makes you quiver, but you'll never be friends. Love isn't brains,
children, it's blood... blood screaming inside you to work its will. I may
be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it.'
Spike

Hobby Ethics
 

LtWolfe wrote:

Thank you Letrol. You took the words right out of my mouth.

I'm not sure I'd be so quick to jump on le troll's band wagon.

--
www.ericschreiber.com

Hobby Ethics
 

"Dunter Powries" wrote:

How will incarceration restore a disrupted ecosystem?

Incarceration isn't intended as a means of reparation, and never was.
It is a means of punishment.

A genuinely RESPONSIBLE person would not have engaged in
an activity which could conceivably have resulted in damage
beyond their ability to repair or restore. Therefore, in
the event that damage DID occur, I would expect that a
genuinely RESPONSIBLE person would be able to restore that
ecosystem to it's previous state. No other outcome is
acceptable.

Now if only the world were populated by responsible people, we'd be
well on our way to utopia.

--
www.ericschreiber.com

Hobby Ethics
 

I live in Vacation Land (maine).

You can find both fish from live aquaria (online).

Joseph

On 30 Dec 2003 18:35:24 -0800, (nuchumYussel) wrote:

Hey Joeseph, what state do you live in? I live in Virginia and have
not found ANY stores in my area, Virginia Beach, that carry Killifish.
And have found ghost shirmp ONCE.

Evan

Hobby Ethics
 

"Empty" wrote in message
...
"Le Trôle" wrote in
:

What right? I may have missed the Right to Keep Exotic Pets in the
Constitution.

That's because rights exist whether or not they're found
in some Big List of Rights.

Yes, the right to keep exotic pets is a basic human right. In fact,
I think there was something about that in the Geneva Convention. Someone
alert the UN- Florida Fish and Game is oppressing LtWolfe!


You must be unclear on the concept of rights not being granted,
because you found yet another Big List of Rights to wave about.

The answer is the same.


The bottom line is that you have no "right" to make decisions
regarding the Florida ecosystem, nor do you have any "right"
to own any kind of aquarium fish or plant.

LtWolfe does indeed have the right to own any kind
of aquarium fish or plant, even though there may be
some reason that he should not exercise that right.

I suppose, then, that I have the right to dump 100 gallons of used motor
oil in the drainage tunnel outside my house?


Nope. You don't own the drainage tunnel.

The use of a drainage tunnel is a privilege based upon
your status as a resident of a given water district, and
certain conditions are required of you to use that facility.

You still have the right to own 100 gallons of used motor oil.
You just don't have the right to use it in a way that harms others.


Your rights end when someone else's begin,


Yes Gump, I know that.


and the well-being of the ecosystem that WE ALL depend on to
LIVE outweighs your theoritical right to keep something you find
interesting.


PETA goes one step beyond the well-being of the ecosystem,
and contends that well-being of all animals precludes their being
kept as pets. They also base their heart-felt pleas on the notion
that Man has no right to keep any kind of animal as a pet.

Sound familiar?


It appears that PETA has found yet another unwitting stooge.

What is this babble? I don't much like PETA, and this has NOTHING to do
with PETA. Call me the EPA's stooge if you have to fit me somewhere into
your tinfoil-hat conspiracy theories.


How are you able to dismiss my remarks as 'tinfoil-hat conspiracy theories'
whilst acknowledging the motives of PETA (and purposely distancing yourself)
in the same paragraph? Dishonest and selective reasoning?

Anyone who goes into 'nature presevation' rant whilst denying the
Right to Keep Fish is indeed an unwitting stooge of PETA.


I am, however, an aquarist with some knowledge of the delicate balance of
ecosystems and morals enough to know there are things more important than
my whims or desires.


It is your "whims and desires" that are responsible for having those
little fish that swim in glass box, so perhaps you need to be just a bit
less strident in condemning "whims and desires" as the root of evil.

Hobby Ethics
 

I live in a land infested with Muscovy Ducks, toxic Bufo Toads, and
Melaleuca trees are soaking up my Everglades.... all non natives, all
introduced by folks who thought they knew better.


Good point Toni, keeping any fish would be ok if the owners took complete
responsibility for their pets from birth to death but too many people seem to
think that fish can be released when they are done with them. BTW don't give
hobbiests too hard a time most of the worst releases are made by the state to
enhance sport fishing. Not many aquarium fish can become established outside of
the deep south but even if the fish you relese will be killed by the winter
they may be carrying fish deseases that can infect the native fish and have a
very bad impact at some future date. that's why we have to have laws, because
people will not take resposibility for their freedoms.
remove nospam from e-mail to send to me, I grow trees in aquariums like bonsai.
I breed dwarf crayfish, great for planted community tanks. If you can get me a
shovelnose sturgeon fingerling (Scaphirhynchus platorynchus) no wild caught
please, contact me

Hobby Ethics
 

don't buy from fish farms, right?). Bottom line, I am responsible for MY
actions. YOU are responsible
for YOUR actions. Let's keep it like that okay? (or rather, get it back like
that).


Unfortunatly release of an exotic plant or animal has far reaching consequenses
beyond the individual. Punishing someone for releasing, say, snakeheads into
the environment will not remove them once established. I am willing to take
resposibility for my actions but why should I and the environment suffer
because someone else didn't? BTW most of the fish farm releases are still quite
localized even to this day but they do raise havoc in the areas where they are
established. One of the few exotic releases I find difficult to see how they
could hurt is a lake in florida that contain a population of neon tetras. teh
small lake is not part of the general water system since it has no inlets or
outlets but it is an odd example. And no i don't know the location or name of
the lake.
remove nospam from e-mail to send to me, I grow trees in aquariums like bonsai.
I breed dwarf crayfish, great for planted community tanks. If you can get me a
shovelnose sturgeon fingerling (Scaphirhynchus platorynchus) no wild caught
please, contact me

Hobby Ethics
 

Right. And I should be allowed to own my very own thermonuclear bomb
because I will be responsible with it.


Damn right, the second amendment and all that ;-)
remove nospam from e-mail to send to me, I grow trees in aquariums like bonsai.
I breed dwarf crayfish, great for planted community tanks. If you can get me a
shovelnose sturgeon fingerling (Scaphirhynchus platorynchus) no wild caught
please, contact me

Hobby Ethics
 

Apparently not. Walking catfish alone have decimated your natural ecology,
and from some of the studies I have seen nearly 40% of Florida's fauna is
introduced species.

An exaggeration if you are referring to fish that are released from the
aquarium hobby. the state has doen some releasing of their own for sport
fishing that makes up a large portion of that.

What right? I may have missed the Right to Keep Exotic Pets in the
Constitution.

Exactly!

Because of
what someone ELSE did? Why should I be punished for the acts of
others? Does that seem right?

Not right just nesesarry, I handle some illegle exotics from time to time but
they never leave my fish room alive and keep in touch with my state government
about it so they know what i am doing and why
..
Hi there, welcome to the real world. Does it seem "right" to you that a
natural ecology should be entirely usurped because you want to keep
plant/animal X? Are your rights more important than entire sections of the
ecosystem your region depends on?

Good answer! If everyone was resposible there would not need to be any
restrictive laws on anything.

Besides, there are very few exotics
doing well, compared to the number in the hobby, and natives in FL.

This is actually true to some extent but any exotic is one too many!

You are very obviously not aware of the problem with exotics in your state
if you think this is the case.

http://www.swfwmd.state.fl.us/waterman/apm/apm.htm , to start with.
http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/Galler.../WalkingCatfis
h.html is another.

Bottom line, I am responsible for MY
actions. YOU are responsible for YOUR actions. Let's keep it like that
okay? (or rather, get it back like that).

Yes, let's. So be responsible, and follow the law, which is backed by the
Fish and Game Dept who obviously know much more about the natural ecology
of the area.

As much as I respect the fish and game people they have a nasty habit of
introducing exotics on a much larger scale than any hobbiest with no better
results. Again i say any exotic is one too many.

You may not think you are releasing these animals or plants in the wild,
and yet you may be doing so inadvertently. You may be flushing invertebrate
or fish eggs with your water changes. You may also be releasing spores from
spore-breeding plants (example: duckweed).

I hope that when I flush it doesn't go directly into the natural waters but you
do have a good point. Since i have the resposibility i have to show i have
taken the proper precautions to insure these thing don't happen. the average
hobbiest either dosen't or can't. But then i am a liscensed aquaculture
facility.

The bottom line is that you have no "right" to make decisions regarding the
Florida ecosystem, nor do you have any "right" to own any kind of aquarium
fish or plant.

I have to agree again with this, totally reasonable. But restriction should be
based on reality not emotion.



remove nospam from e-mail to send to me, I grow trees in aquariums like bonsai.
I breed dwarf crayfish, great for planted community tanks. If you can get me a
shovelnose sturgeon fingerling (Scaphirhynchus platorynchus) no wild caught
please, contact me

Hobby Ethics
 

Ghosties aren't worth it. They're one of the least interesting things you
could ever get fined for.


Where in North America are ghost shrimp exotic? The waters in my area almost
burst whith native populations of ghost shrimp. the local fish love them!
remove nospam from e-mail to send to me, I grow trees in aquariums like bonsai.
I breed dwarf crayfish, great for planted community tanks. If you can get me a
shovelnose sturgeon fingerling (Scaphirhynchus platorynchus) no wild caught
please, contact me

Hobby Ethics
 

Hey Joeseph, what state do you live in? I live in Virginia and have
not found ANY stores in my area, Virginia Beach, that carry Killifish.
And have found ghost shirmp ONCE.


If you live in Virginia you should be able to find as many native ghost shrimp
as you want unless you live in the mountians. maybe even there.
remove nospam from e-mail to send to me, I grow trees in aquariums like bonsai.
I breed dwarf crayfish, great for planted community tanks. If you can get me a
shovelnose sturgeon fingerling (Scaphirhynchus platorynchus) no wild caught
please, contact me

Hobby Ethics
 

"Cannibul" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 21:48:18 GMT, LtWolfe wrote:

Right. And I should be allowed to own my very own thermonuclear bomb
because I will be responsible with it.

As soon as you have the resources and abilities to build one,
this point becomes relevant.