Ted,

Apparently we are not just in any old zone 8's in Oregon, but both in
Portland. But you sound like you could be a native, whereas I am a
transplant. I think I've been here long enough now though that my root
system has recovered. ;-)


"Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote:
Thanks! I hadn't considered that the root system might be the issue. I
watched the tree being dug up and there were several 5m roots that were
cut to get it up out of the ground. The guy I got it from assured me that
trees in Oregon grow like weeds and it wouldn't hurt it.

They do grow like weeds, but even a weed will be set back by having that
much of its root system removed. The older the tree, the higher a percentage
of its roots are lost during transplant. It might take a few years to
recover 100%, as it will probably take several years to grow roots out five
meters again.

None of my fruit trees have produced more than a few token fruits in their
first year after transplant, even though they all did flower that first
year. Since you got some apples in the first year, hopefully you are getting
good pollination from somewhere, and next year you will get more fruit. Not
all varieties can pollinate each other though, and sometimes pollination is
only unidirectional (variety A can pollinate B, but B cannot pollinate A).


When I was about 14 years old (quite a long time ago) a neighbor who
was really into roses helped me to grow and prune the 8 roses in my
parents front yard. That yard was basically barkdust and roses. I ended
up entering some of them in the Portland Rose Show that year and the
following year and ended up winning some ribbons.

Congratulations!


I remember Black
Spot as well as some of the other rose diseases. Roses are the type of
plant that you either spend a lot of time working on them or you just
ignore
them and hope that occassionally you get a nice flower. But they don't
look good unless you give them constant attention. And they also don't
look good unless your constantly at them with the fungucide and the
pesticides.

Occasionally I find someone who has rose plants that are healthy without
chemical intervention, but this seems pretty rare. I've always thought they
have beautiful flowers but the plants themselves are just butt ugly. (They
are also closely related to blackberries, which are even butt uglier
plants.) The prior owner of our house was a nut for roses, so there were
about a dozen and a half of them in the yard. He used to chemicalize them to
fight the fungus, but we do not. Generally they look great in the spring,
then lose pretty close to 100% of their leaves to black spot during the
course of the summer, then get more leaves in the fall. During all this time
amazingly they still produce blooms -- sometimes quite a lot of them -- but
there is is really nothing worse looking, IMO, than a past-its-peak rose
blossom on the end of a dead-looking stalk with nothing else on it but
thorns.

This year one of the three remaining rose bushes we have not removed is
actually holding most of its leaves with very little disease, even now in
deepest August. Perhaps its immune system has finally caught up with the
program. Or perhaps it's just luck. Or the cool summer. Take your pick. My
impression is that roses have been bred so heavily for huge spectacular
blooms that pretty much everything else -- like a halfway decent immune
system -- has been stripped out of them through in-breeding.


Well in my case I'm really limited in what I can do with the yards. The
first
problem is both are small - the back is about 12 feet wide by 20 feet
long,
and is on the north side of the house.

I learned from a book on the "home orchard" that one can put up to four
semi-dwarf fruit trees in a single hole, in a square only 18" on a side. I
didn't try four, but I did put two plums in one hole and two apples in
another hole, where each pair was selected to be mutually cross-pollinating.
To be on the safe side, I also picked all varieties that are self-fruitful,
however supposedly such trees will produce more and better fruit if they are
cross-pollinated. This is a great way to pack in the multiple trees needed
for cross-pollination when you don't have a lot of space (and my yard is
similar in size to yours, although I am more blessed with sun). Another way
is to get those trees with branches of multiple different varieties all
grafted onto the same trunk, but then you are at risk of losing a variety if
a branch dies, and also as the tree grows further any new branches are going
to be whatever variety the trunk is, which may not be a desired one. So this
approach seems more limited to me, and the trees cost more as well.

Utopia in Decay
http://home.comcast.net/~kevin.cherkauer/site

Kevin Cherkauer

Also remember that the original or maybe old growth apple trees did not
produce heavy crops every year. The tree seemed to know (teleology(?)
speaking) that energy would be better spent in root food for storage as
starch. The apple trees now demand heavy crops every year. Maybe yours is
one of the good old ones!
I have often wondered what old growth forest or fields with apple trees
would be like. I guess they would be in Russia. I wonder what their true
companion plants are?


--
Sincerely,
John A. Keslick, Jr.
Consulting Tree Biologist
http://home.ccil.org/~treeman
and www.treedictionary.com
Beware of so-called tree experts who do not understand tree biology.
Storms, fires, floods, earthquakes, and volcanic eruptions keep reminding us
that we are not the boss.
Some people will buy products they do not understand and not buy books that
will give them understanding.

"Ted Mittelstaedt" wrote in message
...
Hi All,

I am in USDA zone 8 (Oregon) and I have a question about an apple tree in
my yard,
the cultivar is Transparent Yellow (or Yellow Transparent) on a semi-dwarf
rootstock.
I got this tree from a guy in the area who grafts apple trees as a hobby
and
was thinning
out his garden in Oct 2007. The tree is about 6 years old I think he
said.
(I had
actually been looking for this specific cultivar for several years)

Anyway, I planted it according to the generally accepted planting
directions,
dug a big hole, watered it, mulched it, made sure the tree wasn't planted
too
deep and all of that. This was around Oct 2007. The tree needs a bit of
pruning, I decided to hold off on it for a year to make sure it would
survive
transplant shock. The one bit of pruning I did do around May of this year
was the tree had 3 verticals competing to be the leader, I topped 2 of
them
and the remaining one I nipped 2 of the top shoots to leave a single one
as
the leader. This single shoot grew about a foot this summer. So far so
good.

Now, here is the part I'm concerned about. This spring (April) the tree
flowered, here are the pics of it:

http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../apr-tree1.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../apr-tree2.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../apr-tree3.jpg

Then in May, most of the flowers dropped off leaving the green
fruit spurs (I also own an Indian Summer crabapple tree
planted in the front of the house that flowered at the same time as
this one did, I assume they pollenated. The Indian Summer produced
-lots- of crabapples.)

Then in late May just about all of the fruit spurs withered, wilted,
drooped over,
got brown and dropped off. The leaves were not affected, just the
fruit spurs. The tree produced a total of 6 apples. The
apples that WERE produced were perfect. (tasted exactly like transparent
yellow, at least like how I remember transparent yellow tasting from 25
years
ago) Here are the pics from that:

http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../jun-tree1.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../jun-tree2.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../jun-tree3.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../jun-tree4.jpg

The apples started dropping in early August, which is normal
for this cultivar. However, now the tree seems to be beginning to
show fall colors, here's current pics:

http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../aug-tree1.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../aug-tree2.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../aug-tree3.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../aug-tree4.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../aug-tree5.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../aug-tree6.jpg

Now, I'm not particularly upset about the yield this year - if the
tree had produced a big crop of apples I would have pinched most
of them off very early since I wanted the tree to put it's energy into
establishing it's root system, not producing apples.

But what concerns me is that it -appeared- that most of the blossoms
pollenated and were well on their way to producing apples - then just
abruptly died off.

I have looked up the diseases of apple trees to see if there is a match
to any symptoms. Blossom Wilt is one that might be a cause - but
it is supposed to shrivel fruits and damage leaves, and that did not
happen.
There are no other symptoms.

Unfortunately as Transparent Yellow is (apparently, nowadays) not
commercially viable, nobody sells these apples anymore, and there is
little information out there other than old charts of when it is supposed
to
ripen. None of the nursuries in the area (including one of the largest
which claims itself as apple experts) have ever heard of this cultivar,
and most of them in any case are more interested in selling you a
"modern" cultivar with fruit that tastes like warm water, and has been
(apparently) genetically engineered to be
resistant to everything short of a nuclear explosion, I assume because
once they have your money and their door hits your ass on the way out,
they don't want to see you again - at least, not complaining about your
tree you bought from them.

I am hoping that someone with some of these who has some experience
might be able to tell me if what I'm seeing is perfectly normal, or
something to be alarmed about. Also I am wanting to know what I
should be spraying, and when.

Thanks!

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
Hi All,

I am in USDA zone 8 (Oregon) and I have a question about an apple tree in
my yard,
the cultivar is Transparent Yellow (or Yellow Transparent) on a semi-dwarf
rootstock.
I got this tree from a guy in the area who grafts apple trees as a hobby and
was thinning
out his garden in Oct 2007. The tree is about 6 years old I think he said.
(I had
actually been looking for this specific cultivar for several years)

Anyway, I planted it according to the generally accepted planting
directions,
dug a big hole, watered it, mulched it, made sure the tree wasn't planted
too
deep and all of that. This was around Oct 2007. The tree needs a bit of
pruning, I decided to hold off on it for a year to make sure it would
survive
transplant shock. The one bit of pruning I did do around May of this year
was the tree had 3 verticals competing to be the leader, I topped 2 of them
and the remaining one I nipped 2 of the top shoots to leave a single one as
the leader. This single shoot grew about a foot this summer. So far so
good.

Now, here is the part I'm concerned about. This spring (April) the tree
flowered, here are the pics of it:

http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../apr-tree1.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../apr-tree2.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../apr-tree3.jpg

Then in May, most of the flowers dropped off leaving the green
fruit spurs (I also own an Indian Summer crabapple tree
planted in the front of the house that flowered at the same time as
this one did, I assume they pollenated. The Indian Summer produced
-lots- of crabapples.)

Then in late May just about all of the fruit spurs withered, wilted,
drooped over,
got brown and dropped off. The leaves were not affected, just the
fruit spurs. The tree produced a total of 6 apples. The
apples that WERE produced were perfect. (tasted exactly like transparent
yellow, at least like how I remember transparent yellow tasting from 25
years
ago) Here are the pics from that:

http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../jun-tree1.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../jun-tree2.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../jun-tree3.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../jun-tree4.jpg

The apples started dropping in early August, which is normal
for this cultivar. However, now the tree seems to be beginning to
show fall colors, here's current pics:

http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../aug-tree1.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../aug-tree2.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../aug-tree3.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../aug-tree4.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../aug-tree5.jpg
http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.co.../aug-tree6.jpg

Now, I'm not particularly upset about the yield this year - if the
tree had produced a big crop of apples I would have pinched most
of them off very early since I wanted the tree to put it's energy into
establishing it's root system, not producing apples.

But what concerns me is that it -appeared- that most of the blossoms
pollenated and were well on their way to producing apples - then just
abruptly died off.

I have looked up the diseases of apple trees to see if there is a match
to any symptoms. Blossom Wilt is one that might be a cause - but
it is supposed to shrivel fruits and damage leaves, and that did not happen.
There are no other symptoms.

Unfortunately as Transparent Yellow is (apparently, nowadays) not
commercially viable, nobody sells these apples anymore, and there is
little information out there other than old charts of when it is supposed to
ripen. None of the nursuries in the area (including one of the largest
which claims itself as apple experts) have ever heard of this cultivar,
and most of them in any case are more interested in selling you a
"modern" cultivar with fruit that tastes like warm water, and has been
(apparently) genetically engineered to be
resistant to everything short of a nuclear explosion, I assume because
once they have your money and their door hits your ass on the way out,
they don't want to see you again - at least, not complaining about your
tree you bought from them.

I am hoping that someone with some of these who has some experience
might be able to tell me if what I'm seeing is perfectly normal, or
something to be alarmed about. Also I am wanting to know what I
should be spraying, and when.

Thanks!


From the pictures you provided, I was struck by the small amount of leaf
foliage. This may not be a disease. Are you fertilizing and mulching
this tree?

The other concern I have is your climate zone. The Yellow Transparent
is rated cold tolerant in your zone, but the other consideration is the
number of chill hours this tree is receiving. Most apple trees need a
minimum number of hours of temperatures between 32 and 45 degrees to
satisfy their dormant rest period. There are certain low chill
varieties, but I'm not sure about your variety. Is the person in your
area who gave you the tree growing the same variety, and with what success?

As long as the blossoms on your crabapple are opening about the same
time as your apple blossoms, there should be no pollination problems.

Your leaf damage looked minimal and the fruit did not look attacked.
You may not have to do much heavy spraying. A general orchard spray
applied as needed, should do the job.

Sherwin