apple trees from seed
 

On 9/18/2009 2:31 PM, hubops wrote:
The seeds I planted and actually grew (not a natural green thumber)
were all from decades old trees....at least 50 years old or older. They
just don't make em like this any more and I'm old enough :( to know
that....so since they're growing anyway, I'll just wait and see what
happens.
Who knows....maybe nothing. But it's worth the try.
Donna
in WA


I'm jumping in late to this thread .. sorry.
Can anyone say whether-or-not
directly planting "branch-clones" of old fruit trees
will produce the same fruit of the original tree ?
"branch clones" being the result of girding & rooting
a branch _ON_ a fruit tree - then cutting and re-planting it.
.. or does this rooty-branch need to be grafted
to a strong root stock ? later on.
The property where I grew up has some ancient
fruit trees - 3 or 4 apple and 1 winter pear -
that might be worth preserving.
John T


Your rooted branches will bear the same type of fruit as the parent.
However, the resulting non-grafted tree MIGHT not be as vigorous or
long-lived. On the other hand, the resulting tree MIGHT be even more
vigorous than the parent.

Grafting is supposed to provide healthy, vigorous roots. However, the
graft point is often a weak point that can inhibit the growth of the
scion above it.

An "own root" tree (one that is not grafted to a root stock) will not
send up root suckers that must be removed. Any suckers from an "own
root" tree will be more of the same variety as the tree's parent; they
should be removed only if you want a tree and not a shrub. On a grafted
tree, root suckers can eventually dominate the entire plant and cause
the scion above the graft to die; thus, such suckers must always be
removed.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean
Sunset Zone: 21 -- interior Santa Monica Mountains with some ocean
influence (USDA 10a, very close to Sunset Zone 19)
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

apple trees from seed
 

zxcvbob wrote in
:

enigma wrote:
and how do you think new apples come into being? by grafting
trees?
nope. you have to start by planting seeds. some are ok, some
are really really good. you won't get bad fruit from seed, and
you might get something great.
for old fogies like you, maybe planting fruit seeds takes too
long,
but (thankfully) we aren't all like you, willing to buy trash
trees at WalMart.


You might get something great, but it's a long shot. Most apple
orchards plant crabapples for pollinators because they produce a
*lot* of pollen over a long blooming season.

great is actually a relative term, as well. i like hard, sour
apples. my ex liked mealy, mild apples. obviously he wouldn't think
an apple that i think is great was worth bothering with :)
i happen to like eating crabapples... ;)

Even an apple that is worthless for eating might be really good
for making cider or jelly.

exactly.

If (when) your apple tree eventually fruits and they are nasty
little disease-ridden crabapples, you can still graft a named
variety (or two) onto the tree and convert it over in a couple
of years to a grafted tree without totally losing all those
years you waited. Or just enjoy your unique crabapple tree for
what it is.

yeah, the big issue with seed grown apples might be disease
resistance...
i got the feeling that the seeds the OP had were from an old
family tree, so there may be less possibility of cross pollenation
with other types of apples. but, yes, if the seedlings aren't true
to the apples she wants, she can use them to graft branches from
the old trees she wants to save.
not everyone cares for dwarf trees, either, and height can be
controled by pruning.
lee

apple trees from seed
 

"zxcvbob" wrote in message
...
enigma wrote:
and how do you think new apples come into being? by grafting trees?
nope. you have to start by planting seeds. some are ok, some are really
really good. you won't get bad fruit from seed, and you might get
something great.
for old fogies like you, maybe planting fruit seeds takes too long, but
(thankfully) we aren't all like you, willing to buy trash trees at
WalMart. lee


You might get something great, but it's a long shot.

I'm not so sure of that. Each year we taste test apples that grow on trees
that have grown from seed and there are many very good tasting apples from
these trees.

The apple trees all grow along a very quiet country road that has very
limited maintenance done on it. The trees are obviously the product of
discarded apple cores flung from passing cars. Most of the apples are very
edible and a few trees always have superb apples.

apple trees from seed
 

On Sep 19, 7:31*am, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:
I'm not so sure of that. *Each year we taste test apples that grow on trees
that have grown from seed and there are many very good tasting apples from
these trees.

The apple trees all grow along a very quiet country road that has very
limited maintenance done on it. *The trees are obviously the product of
discarded apple cores flung from passing cars. *Most of the apples are very
edible and a few trees always have superb apples.

I really want to break out in song, "Johhhhhnny Appleseed, Appleseed
Johnny!"

you never know!

Karen

apple trees from seed
 

David Hare-Scott wrote:


There are two reasons why you might not get a tree that you like.

One is that if the original was grafted (and the seedling obviously
isn't) the different root stock may change the nature of the tree and
its hardiness, although it shouldn't have much direct effect on the
fruit. The second is that when grown from seed there is a degree of
genetic variation due to random recombination of genes from the parents,
this is more marked if the pollinator is another variety.

I would add that the odds of getting a decent apple from a planted
seed are almost too small to make it worthwhile. I have seen figures
of one in ten thousand will work.

There are some good varieties called 'chance seedlings', where a tree
dropped an apple and the seeds produced something worthwhile. The
number of these chance seedlings is very small, perhaps less than
a few dozen. When you consider the millions of such trees grown by
chance like this, the odds do not seem to favor good results from
planting a tree from a seed. It is a genetic thing as the seed
can carry recessive genes for several generations back. This soup
of various genes almost always comes out badly, as the seed grows.

If you want to propagate an old tree, cut a twig of new growth from
the tree in early spring while the tree is dormant. Graft that onto
some compatible apple rootstock ( I would recommend a dwarfing
rootstock ). The advantages are that you will get an EXACT copy
of your original tree. The dwarfs are easier to maintain and will
yield fruit sooner than a seedling, sometimes in the season after
the graft is done. Grafting is not difficult. Just get a sharp
knife, some tape to wrap it, and a rubber band to hold it together.
There are many web sites that describe the process in detail. You
can also send the twig (scion wood) to various nurseries that will
make the tree for you.

I should mention there is no problem grafting this twig onto an
existing tree, if it is done correctly.

I would discourage people from buying fruit trees from Home Depot,
Walmart, etc., unless price is the first consideration. These
trees are often mislabeled, as I found out myself a few years ago.
Go to a reliable nursery, or order a tree from one of the better
nurseries, like Raintree in California.

Sherwin

You mention dwarf trees, dwarfing is done by grafting good fruiting wood
on to dwarf rootstock. Your seedlings will not be dwarfs unless from
dwarf fruiting wood which is probably not the case.

Commercially raised apple trees are grafted. The rootstock is a hardy
one (eg resistant to root disease) and/or a dwarf one and the scion is
cut from of a known good fruiting performer, you probably won't get
either of these benefits but you might still get a nice apple tree, it's
a matter of chance.

David

apple trees from seed
 

sherwin dubren wrote:
David Hare-Scott wrote:


There are two reasons why you might not get a tree that you like.

One is that if the original was grafted (and the seedling obviously
isn't) the different root stock may change the nature of the tree and
its hardiness, although it shouldn't have much direct effect on the
fruit. The second is that when grown from seed there is a degree of
genetic variation due to random recombination of genes from the
parents, this is more marked if the pollinator is another variety.

I would add that the odds of getting a decent apple from a planted
seed are almost too small to make it worthwhile. I have seen
figures of one in ten thousand will work.


That's interesting can you recall where you saw that?

David

apple trees from seed
 

On Tue, 22 Sep 2009 02:13:09 -0500, sherwin dubren
wrote:

David Hare-Scott wrote:


There are two reasons why you might not get a tree that you like.

One is that if the original was grafted (and the seedling obviously
isn't) the different root stock may change the nature of the tree and
its hardiness, although it shouldn't have much direct effect on the
fruit. The second is that when grown from seed there is a degree of
genetic variation due to random recombination of genes from the parents,
this is more marked if the pollinator is another variety.

I would add that the odds of getting a decent apple from a planted
seed are almost too small to make it worthwhile. I have seen figures
of one in ten thousand will work.

There are some good varieties called 'chance seedlings', where a tree
dropped an apple and the seeds produced something worthwhile. The
number of these chance seedlings is very small, perhaps less than
a few dozen. When you consider the millions of such trees grown by
chance like this, the odds do not seem to favor good results from
planting a tree from a seed. It is a genetic thing as the seed
can carry recessive genes for several generations back. This soup
of various genes almost always comes out badly, as the seed grows.

If you want to propagate an old tree, cut a twig of new growth from
the tree in early spring while the tree is dormant. Graft that onto
some compatible apple rootstock ( I would recommend a dwarfing
rootstock ). The advantages are that you will get an EXACT copy
of your original tree. The dwarfs are easier to maintain and will
yield fruit sooner than a seedling, sometimes in the season after
the graft is done. Grafting is not difficult. Just get a sharp
knife, some tape to wrap it, and a rubber band to hold it together.
There are many web sites that describe the process in detail. You
can also send the twig (scion wood) to various nurseries that will
make the tree for you.

I should mention there is no problem grafting this twig onto an
existing tree, if it is done correctly.

I would discourage people from buying fruit trees from Home Depot,
Walmart, etc., unless price is the first consideration. These
trees are often mislabeled, as I found out myself a few years ago.
Go to a reliable nursery, or order a tree from one of the better
nurseries, like Raintree in California.



Perhaps you just got unlucky... sometimes the tags drop off and then
reattached haphazardly... I've heard stories of privately owned
nursery personel going around sabotaging the big box nursery stock by
switching labels... don't know how true. But those big box plants
come from the same wholesale nurserys that supply the more expensive
privately owned nurseries. The only real benefit to buying fruit
trees from the privately owned nurseries is that they will often have
larger/older specimens that are burlap balled... the big box stores
typically sell young saplings in pots... but the trees are the same
quality. Fruit trees are the most inexpensive plants sold, they're
not big moneymakers regardless, a potted four year old sapling will
cost like $15, whereas a balled and burlapped six year old sapling
will cost $30, twice as much but not any fortune. Retail nurseries
don't even carry a large stock of fruit trees because the typical
homeowner may occasionally buy a couple but most buy none.. those that
don't get sold quickly become a total loss or once the planting time
has passed they are given away at cost (50% off). Commercial orchard
growers buy from the wholesalers and/or graft their own. I've
purchased plants from privately owned nurseries that were mislabled
too; gingko and holly come to mind, and many times veggies are
mislabeled... I've learned to buy my veggie plants half from one
nursery and half from another... too many times bell peppers turned
out to be jalopeno, and beefsteak tomato turned out to be yellow roma.
Even packets of seed can be mislabled, I've bought yellow crookneck
seed that turned out to be green pattypan.

apple trees from seed
 

On Tue, 22 Sep 2009 19:28:08 +1000, "David Hare-Scott"
wrote:

sherwin dubren wrote:
David Hare-Scott wrote:


There are two reasons why you might not get a tree that you like.

One is that if the original was grafted (and the seedling obviously
isn't) the different root stock may change the nature of the tree and
its hardiness, although it shouldn't have much direct effect on the
fruit. The second is that when grown from seed there is a degree of
genetic variation due to random recombination of genes from the
parents, this is more marked if the pollinator is another variety.

I would add that the odds of getting a decent apple from a planted
seed are almost too small to make it worthwhile. I have seen
figures of one in ten thousand will work.


That's interesting can you recall where you saw that?



I have five apple trees growing on my property (that I know of) that
were obviously seeded from animal droppings, each produces different
fruit in abundance but not worth eating by humans, all small,
mishapen, dry, and extremely sour fruit... but the critters definitely
enjoy partaking. I toss apple cores from perfectly good fruit off my
back deck all the time, I've seen the deer eating their prizes. I'm
positive that's how those freak apple trees come to grow on my
property, probably from someone elses cores, I haven't been here long
enough for my cores to have produced such large trees... and critters
travel long distances to forage, those apple seeds could have come
from miles away. I had a great uncle whose hobby was growing
miniature landscapes is tiny pots, some in toothpaste caps, he would
plant the seeds from fruit he bought, apple, pear, citrus, they grew
and some even produced fruit, but none one would eat. You have better
odds of winning the lottery than of planting apple trees from seed
that produces edible fruit.

apple trees from seed
 

In article , "DEM"
wrote:

I found a couple of old apple trees that produced the
best apples I had since a child. I have always wanted
to try planting apple seeds and now with these two
wonderful apple seeds, I did just that.

I have two apple trees (same tree) that grew almost 3
ft in one year! I'm ready to plant them in the ground as
soon as the weather cools.

The other apple seeds that I planted, are just now
popping up in my make-shift hot box.

My question....will these trees produce anything near
to their mother plant? I have other dwarf apple trees
and I'm not worried about pollination. But I don't
know what if any type of apples these trees will produce.

Is a seed a seed and will it keep growing and be like
the mother seed from which it came? :)

Donna
in WA

Talk about a perennial. This discussion about growing fruit trees from
seed comes up every year.
--

- Billy

Racial injustice, war, urban blight, and environmental rape have a common denominator in our exploitative economic system.* ~Channing E. Phillips

Israeli Settlers Attack Palestinian Land
http://i2.democracynow.org/2009/7/22/headlines#7

http://www.tomdispatch.com/p/zinn

apple trees from seed
 

"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
sherwin dubren wrote:
David Hare-Scott wrote:


There are two reasons why you might not get a tree that you like.

One is that if the original was grafted (and the seedling obviously
isn't) the different root stock may change the nature of the tree and
its hardiness, although it shouldn't have much direct effect on the
fruit. The second is that when grown from seed there is a degree of
genetic variation due to random recombination of genes from the
parents, this is more marked if the pollinator is another variety.

I would add that the odds of getting a decent apple from a planted
seed are almost too small to make it worthwhile. I have seen
figures of one in ten thousand will work.


That's interesting can you recall where you saw that?

It certainly doesn't accord with the seedling apples we sample each year.
They've all been edible but some are truly superb.

apple trees from seed
 

"Billy" wrote in message
In article , "DEM"
wrote:

I found a couple of old apple trees that produced the
best apples I had since a child. I have always wanted
to try planting apple seeds and now with these two
wonderful apple seeds, I did just that.

I have two apple trees (same tree) that grew almost 3
ft in one year! I'm ready to plant them in the ground as
soon as the weather cools.

The other apple seeds that I planted, are just now
popping up in my make-shift hot box.

My question....will these trees produce anything near
to their mother plant? I have other dwarf apple trees
and I'm not worried about pollination. But I don't
know what if any type of apples these trees will produce.

Is a seed a seed and will it keep growing and be like
the mother seed from which it came? :)

Donna
in WA

Talk about a perennial. This discussion about growing fruit trees from
seed comes up every year.

:-)) Yep.

apple trees from seed
 

David Hare-Scott wrote:
sherwin dubren wrote:
David Hare-Scott wrote:


There are two reasons why you might not get a tree that you like.

One is that if the original was grafted (and the seedling obviously
isn't) the different root stock may change the nature of the tree and
its hardiness, although it shouldn't have much direct effect on the
fruit. The second is that when grown from seed there is a degree of
genetic variation due to random recombination of genes from the
parents, this is more marked if the pollinator is another variety.

I would add that the odds of getting a decent apple from a planted
seed are almost too small to make it worthwhile. I have seen
figures of one in ten thousand will work.


That's interesting can you recall where you saw that?

David

I have seen it in several places.

Here is one I can remember in which they say the following:

There are some 18,000 apple trees in the U of M's breeding orchards.
The university has one of the three largest apple breeding programs in
the country.

For every 10,000 trees, he may only get one producing apples good
enough for release.

The reference is as follows:


http://wcco.com/findingminnesota/u.a...ectflash=false

Notably, they are talking about apples good enough for release, but I
think this is an indication of the low success rate in growing
decent apples from seed. However, these guys are experts and are
picking out the best candidates to get even these meager results.

Sherwin

apple trees from seed
 

how in the heck did Johnny Appleseed do it?

Donna
in WA


"sherwin dubren" wrote in message
...
David Hare-Scott wrote:
sherwin dubren wrote:
David Hare-Scott wrote:


There are two reasons why you might not get a tree that you like.

One is that if the original was grafted (and the seedling obviously
isn't) the different root stock may change the nature of the tree and
its hardiness, although it shouldn't have much direct effect on the
fruit. The second is that when grown from seed there is a degree of
genetic variation due to random recombination of genes from the
parents, this is more marked if the pollinator is another variety.

I would add that the odds of getting a decent apple from a planted
seed are almost too small to make it worthwhile. I have seen
figures of one in ten thousand will work.


That's interesting can you recall where you saw that?

David

I have seen it in several places.

Here is one I can remember in which they say the following:

There are some 18,000 apple trees in the U of M's breeding orchards. The
university has one of the three largest apple breeding programs in the
country.

For every 10,000 trees, he may only get one producing apples good enough
for release.

The reference is as follows:


http://wcco.com/findingminnesota/u.a...ectflash=false

Notably, they are talking about apples good enough for release, but I
think this is an indication of the low success rate in growing
decent apples from seed. However, these guys are experts and are
picking out the best candidates to get even these meager results.

Sherwin

apple trees from seed
 

On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 08:12:03 -0700, "DEM" wrote:

how in the heck did Johnny Appleseed do it?

Donna
in WA

Legend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Appleseed

apple trees from seed
 

brooklyn1 writes:

On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 08:12:03 -0700, "DEM" wrote:

how in the heck did Johnny Appleseed do it?

Donna
in WA

Legend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Appleseed

From same article:

Some even make the claim that the Rambo was "Johnny Appleseed's favorite
variety", ignoring that he had religious objections to grafting and
preferred wild apples to all named varieties. It appears most nurseries
are calling the tree the "Johnny Appleseed" variety, rather than a
Rambo. Unlike the mid-summer Rambo, the Johnny Appleseed variety ripens
in September and is a baking/applesauce variety similar to an Albemarle
Pippen.

So it appears, Johnny Appleseed did plant seeds, and was content to live
with the results.