Awl --

You'd think so, the way homeowners/landscapers run around with leaf blowers
getting rid of every single last one of them.

Is eliminating leaves that important?
What would happen if people *didn't* blow every leaf off their property?

What I find strange is that people will blow leaves off of bare dirt --
seems to me you'd WANT leaves covering soil.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/public/46613.html says that shredding leaves and
covering the lawn with them is a good thing.
Basically anything you do with leaves except burn them is OK -- leaves
collected by landscapers eventually get composted by the municipality -- I
think.

Personally, I think my neighbors are just a little to fanatic with this leaf
blowing thing -- jmo.
--
EA

Existential Angst wrote:
Awl --

You'd think so, the way homeowners/landscapers run around with leaf blowers
getting rid of every single last one of them.

Is eliminating leaves that important?
What would happen if people *didn't* blow every leaf off their property?

What I find strange is that people will blow leaves off of bare dirt --
seems to me you'd WANT leaves covering soil.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/public/46613.html says that shredding leaves and
covering the lawn with them is a good thing.
Basically anything you do with leaves except burn them is OK -- leaves
collected by landscapers eventually get composted by the municipality -- I
think.

Personally, I think my neighbors are just a little to fanatic with this leaf
blowing thing -- jmo.
If leaves were toxic everyone on earth would be dead by now.
When you start feeling ill, stop eating them.

I personally like leaves on my property and only remove them
when they are in a specific place where they cover something
someone could trip over. Use your best judgment.

Laugh at your neighbors when they seem obsessed with removing
every single leaf. Don't let it bother you.

Robert J

Existential Angst wrote:
Awl --

You'd think so, the way homeowners/landscapers run around with leaf
blowers getting rid of every single last one of them.

Is eliminating leaves that important?
What would happen if people *didn't* blow every leaf off their
property?
What I find strange is that people will blow leaves off of bare dirt
-- seems to me you'd WANT leaves covering soil.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/public/46613.html says that shredding leaves
and covering the lawn with them is a good thing.
Basically anything you do with leaves except burn them is OK -- leaves
collected by landscapers eventually get composted by the municipality
-- I think.

Personally, I think my neighbors are just a little to fanatic with
this leaf blowing thing -- jmo.

The same compulsive neatness and waste of effort is involved in having
"beautiful" lawns, in fact the two often go together as for ultimate
"beauty" you don't want leaves obscuring your lawn. So many high-resource
lawns aren't even used for play, oh no this might produce wear spots, they
are just there to admire. Such madness is taken to the extreme when the
compulsive leaf blowing lawn trimmer sends the debris to land fill.

David

On 11/5/2009 1:51 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
Awl --

You'd think so, the way homeowners/landscapers run around with leaf blowers
getting rid of every single last one of them.

Is eliminating leaves that important?
What would happen if people *didn't* blow every leaf off their property?

What I find strange is that people will blow leaves off of bare dirt --
seems to me you'd WANT leaves covering soil.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/public/46613.html says that shredding leaves and
covering the lawn with them is a good thing.
Basically anything you do with leaves except burn them is OK -- leaves
collected by landscapers eventually get composted by the municipality -- I
think.

Personally, I think my neighbors are just a little to fanatic with this leaf
blowing thing -- jmo.

First priority is to use autumn leaves to mulch my beds. After making a
layer about 3" thick, I lay out small branches to hold the leaves in
place. Around my oak, I actually anchored chicken wire to hold the mulch.

Next priority is to add them to my compost pile, which is more leaf mold
than compost. It has a large amount of oak leaves, which make a great
leaf mold.

In the end -- generally when my ash tree starts to drop its leaves --
they go in a bin for our county's composting program. Since the leaves
often exceed the capacity of the bin, I make piles of them on the patio
and back walkways.

No, I don't have a blower. I use a lawn rake. I just had my back lawn
mowed. It's red fescue, a tall ornamental grass. If it were not mowed,
I would not be able to rake leaves from it; the accumulated leaves would
then smother the lawn. I'll be adding some of the grass clippings to
the compost pile.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean
Sunset Zone: 21 -- interior Santa Monica Mountains with some ocean
influence (USDA 10a, very close to Sunset Zone 19)
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

"Existential Angst" writes:


Depends.

Here in central NJ under Tulip Poplars, the amount of leaves that fall
is sufficient to create a pile 4 inches deep over the entire lawn.

Most of the lawn would be dead in one year if the leaves weren't
removed.

Even small clumps of leaves will make bare spots on a lawn over the
winter here.

Leaves on bare ground don't cause a problem, except that they will
blow off the bare ground onto the lawn over the winter.

Leaves are valuable. They make good compost which is useful for
gardening, vegetables, flower gardens or even on lawns if chopped up.
It's a shame that so many people waste so much time and energy raking
up leaves, bagging them, then sending to be hauled off, when they
could be piled up for compost. Or, here in the South we have a
landscape form called 'natural area'. You can also blow them into
natural areas with your lawnmower, leaf blower or just rake them.
If they are allowed to just pile up on grass, you'll likely damage the
grass. Of course if you want more natural area and less lawn, that's
not a bad idea either.

David E. Ross wrote:

First priority is to use autumn leaves to mulch my beds. After making a
layer about 3" thick, I lay out small branches to hold the leaves in
place. Around my oak, I actually anchored chicken wire to hold the mulch.

Next priority is to add them to my compost pile, which is more leaf mold
than compost. It has a large amount of oak leaves, which make a great
leaf mold.

In the end -- generally when my ash tree starts to drop its leaves --
they go in a bin for our county's composting program. Since the leaves
often exceed the capacity of the bin, I make piles of them on the patio
and back walkways.

No, I don't have a blower. I use a lawn rake. I just had my back lawn
mowed. It's red fescue, a tall ornamental grass. If it were not mowed,
I would not be able to rake leaves from it; the accumulated leaves would
then smother the lawn. I'll be adding some of the grass clippings to
the compost pile.


David,

Why do you make a distinction between leaf mold and compost? Aren't
they the same thing?

My solution is to use the lawn mower as a vacuum cleaner with a bag
attached. This mixture of chopped up leaves and some grass is more
compact than the whole leaves. This gets dumped into my compost bins.
These bins can fill up initially, but very soon will natureally compact
even more from their own weight or from the rain. You ahould have
enough room in any reasonably sized bins to acommodate your entire
lawn. I only bag my grass clippings once a year after leaf fall to
clean up the leaves. Otherwise, bagging too much will remove too
much nutrients from the lawn.

Sherwin

"sherwin dubren" wrote in message
David E. Ross wrote:

First priority is to use autumn leaves to mulch my beds. After making a
layer about 3" thick, I lay out small branches to hold the leaves in
place. Around my oak, I actually anchored chicken wire to hold the
mulch.

Next priority is to add them to my compost pile, which is more leaf mold
than compost. It has a large amount of oak leaves, which make a great
leaf mold.

In the end -- generally when my ash tree starts to drop its leaves --
they go in a bin for our county's composting program. Since the leaves
often exceed the capacity of the bin, I make piles of them on the patio
and back walkways.

No, I don't have a blower. I use a lawn rake. I just had my back lawn
mowed. It's red fescue, a tall ornamental grass. If it were not mowed,
I would not be able to rake leaves from it; the accumulated leaves would
then smother the lawn. I'll be adding some of the grass clippings to
the compost pile.


David,

Why do you make a distinction between leaf mold and compost? Aren't
they the same thing?

No, they aren't the same thing even though compost may have some leaves
included in it.

Leaf mould is made by piling leaves and then letting the pile rot down for a
couple of years without disturbance. Leaves have lignin in them and thus
they take a long time to rot and, unlike compost, it is a cold rotting
process rather than a hot one. Leaves decompose by using fungal
decompostition IIRC whereas compost is made by bacterial decomposition
(again, IIRC).

Leaf mould is valuble as the end result of decayed material is more durable
in the soil than 'normal' compost (because of the lignin).

Another difference is that Leaf mould is made of just leaves and compost is
made of a combination of materials and includes a high nitrogen content
which is not present in leaf mould.

Some leaves take forever to turn into leaf mould, for example, Plane tree
leaves.

On 11/5/2009 10:54 PM, sherwin dubren wrote:
David E. Ross wrote:
First priority is to use autumn leaves to mulch my beds. After making a
layer about 3" thick, I lay out small branches to hold the leaves in
place. Around my oak, I actually anchored chicken wire to hold the mulch.

Next priority is to add them to my compost pile, which is more leaf mold
than compost. It has a large amount of oak leaves, which make a great
leaf mold.

In the end -- generally when my ash tree starts to drop its leaves --
they go in a bin for our county's composting program. Since the leaves
often exceed the capacity of the bin, I make piles of them on the patio
and back walkways.

No, I don't have a blower. I use a lawn rake. I just had my back lawn
mowed. It's red fescue, a tall ornamental grass. If it were not mowed,
I would not be able to rake leaves from it; the accumulated leaves would
then smother the lawn. I'll be adding some of the grass clippings to
the compost pile.


David,

Why do you make a distinction between leaf mold and compost? Aren't
they the same thing?

My solution is to use the lawn mower as a vacuum cleaner with a bag
attached. This mixture of chopped up leaves and some grass is more
compact than the whole leaves. This gets dumped into my compost bins.
These bins can fill up initially, but very soon will natureally compact
even more from their own weight or from the rain. You ahould have
enough room in any reasonably sized bins to acommodate your entire
lawn. I only bag my grass clippings once a year after leaf fall to
clean up the leaves. Otherwise, bagging too much will remove too
much nutrients from the lawn.

Sherwin

Others made the distinction for me: Compost starts as 50% green matter
(e.g., grass clippings) and 50% brown matter (e.g., dead leaves). Mine
is about 95% brown matter.

My lawn is an ornamental grass. It grows 6" or more and flops over.
(Yes, I can walk on it; but it's not for children to play.) When it
gets mowed (only once or twice a year), the clippings are not fine. If
I add too much, I can't really stir the pile. Then the clippings mat
down and don't mix with the rest of the pile.

The lawn is mowed in October, before leaves begin to fall. With
different kinds of trees that drop their leaves at different times, I
would have to mow more often, defeating the purpose of planting red
fescue.

With only one or two mowings a year for a rather small lawn, I don't own
a power mower. Instead, I use a lawn service. I don't want to pay them
for extra visits just to pick up leaves.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean
Sunset Zone: 21 -- interior Santa Monica Mountains with some ocean
influence (USDA 10a, very close to Sunset Zone 19)
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

Leaves are valuable. They make good compost which is useful for
gardening, vegetables, flower gardens or even on lawns if chopped up.
It's a shame that so many people waste so much time and energy raking
up leaves, bagging them, then sending to be hauled off, when they
could be piled up for compost. Or, here in the South we have a
landscape form called 'natural area'. You can also blow them into
natural areas with your lawnmower, leaf blower or just rake them.
If they are allowed to just pile up on grass, you'll likely damage the
grass. Of course if you want more natural area and less lawn, that's
not a bad idea either.

I have "free" road apples just down the road. Another neighbor told
me I could have all the maple leaves on his property that I wanted...
yes, he giggled when I asked for permission. I smoothered my flower
bed about 4-5 inches deep with these dried leaves. Then comes the
other neighbor with the ponies. She gave me 3 barrels of road apples;
which I dumped onto of the leaves. These are definitely "green" apples
but I figure with mulch and time, they should be ok.

This cost me nothing but time and a little sore muscles. The only thing
I want and should add is peat onto the top of it all. At any rate, it will
be
fun to see what happens this spring.

Donna
in WA

David E. Ross wrote:

Why do you make a distinction between leaf mold and compost? Aren't
they the same thing?

My solution is to use the lawn mower as a vacuum cleaner with a bag
attached. This mixture of chopped up leaves and some grass is more
compact than the whole leaves. This gets dumped into my compost bins.
These bins can fill up initially, but very soon will natureally compact
even more from their own weight or from the rain. You ahould have
enough room in any reasonably sized bins to acommodate your entire
lawn. I only bag my grass clippings once a year after leaf fall to
clean up the leaves. Otherwise, bagging too much will remove too
much nutrients from the lawn.

Sherwin

Others made the distinction for me: Compost starts as 50% green matter
(e.g., grass clippings) and 50% brown matter (e.g., dead leaves). Mine
is about 95% brown matter.

My lawn is an ornamental grass. It grows 6" or more and flops over.
(Yes, I can walk on it; but it's not for children to play.) When it
gets mowed (only once or twice a year), the clippings are not fine. If
I add too much, I can't really stir the pile. Then the clippings mat
down and don't mix with the rest of the pile.

The lawn is mowed in October, before leaves begin to fall. With
different kinds of trees that drop their leaves at different times, I
would have to mow more often, defeating the purpose of planting red
fescue.

You must have some unusual trees in your area. In my area, you find
many of the common trees (Lower Great Lakes). I find that almost all
the leaves fall within a one to two week period. There are just a few
Hangers on, not amounting to be of concern.

With only one or two mowings a year for a rather small lawn, I don't own
a power mower. Instead, I use a lawn service. I don't want to pay them
for extra visits just to pick up leaves.

Using a lawn service should not limit your leaf takeup. I would skip
a cutting as soon as the first leaves fall. Usually, this is in a
cool time of the year when the grass is not growing much anyways.
Then wait till the majority of leaves have falled (two weeks usually)
and have your lawn service bag their cutting. and dump it on your
mulch pile. I do the same using my own mower, but this should work
for you.

Sherwin

FarmI wrote:

Why do you make a distinction between leaf mold and compost? Aren't
they the same thing?

No, they aren't the same thing even though compost may have some leaves
included in it.

Leaf mould is made by piling leaves and then letting the pile rot down for a
couple of years without disturbance.

My leaf piles in compost bins take only one year to process. I do not
add any enhancers to them, except for water. It is key to keep these
leaf piles damp, as I can see dry portions never cooking. It is also
important that they are chopped up. Otherwise, they mat together and
this also prevents decomposition.

Leaves have lignin in them

My checking on the web says that stems and wood contain more lignin
than leaves, so I don't think this is the reason for them taking so
long to break down.

and thus
they take a long time to rot and, unlike compost, it is a cold rotting
process rather than a hot one.

Now, my compost piles have some grass clippings in them, so this may
account for the fact that they get nice and hot, even steamy on colder
days. However, I have seen recommendations of 2 parts of grass to
every part of leaves for a pile. In my case, I think the grass is
than 10 percent of the total, but everything cooks just fine in one
year.

Leaves decompose by using fungal
decompostition IIRC whereas compost is made by bacterial decomposition
(again, IIRC).

Leaf mould is valuble as the end result of decayed material is more durable
in the soil than 'normal' compost (because of the lignin).

From what I read, lignum is present in all vascular plants, and occurs
in higher amounts in wood than in leaves.

Another difference is that Leaf mould is made of just leaves and compost is
made of a combination of materials and includes a high nitrogen content
which is not present in leaf mould.

Except for processing time, I don't think the nitrogen affects the
plants covered in leaf compost. There are more natural ways the soil
to fixate itself with nitrogen. My experience is that leaves will
break down in a years time, assuming the pile is kept consistently
damp and the leaves are chopped up.

Sherwin

Some leaves take forever to turn into leaf mould, for example, Plane tree
leaves.

"sherwin dubren" wrote in message
FarmI wrote:

Why do you make a distinction between leaf mold and compost? Aren't
they the same thing?

No, they aren't the same thing even though compost may have some leaves
included in it.

Leaf mould is made by piling leaves and then letting the pile rot down
for a couple of years without disturbance.

My leaf piles in compost bins take only one year to process. I do not
add any enhancers to them, except for water. It is key to keep these
leaf piles damp, as I can see dry portions never cooking. It is also
important that they are chopped up. Otherwise, they mat together and
this also prevents decomposition.

Leaves have lignin in them

My checking on the web says that stems and wood contain more lignin
than leaves, so I don't think this is the reason for them taking so
long to break down.

and thus
they take a long time to rot and, unlike compost, it is a cold rotting
process rather than a hot one.

Now, my compost piles have some grass clippings in them, so this may
account for the fact that they get nice and hot, even steamy on colder
days. However, I have seen recommendations of 2 parts of grass to
every part of leaves for a pile. In my case, I think the grass is
than 10 percent of the total, but everything cooks just fine in one
year.

Leaves decompose by using fungal
decompostition IIRC whereas compost is made by bacterial decomposition
(again, IIRC).

Leaf mould is valuble as the end result of decayed material is more
durable in the soil than 'normal' compost (because of the lignin).

From what I read, lignum is present in all vascular plants, and occurs
in higher amounts in wood than in leaves.

Another difference is that Leaf mould is made of just leaves and compost
is made of a combination of materials and includes a high nitrogen
content which is not present in leaf mould.

Except for processing time, I don't think the nitrogen affects the
plants covered in leaf compost. There are more natural ways the soil
to fixate itself with nitrogen. My experience is that leaves will
break down in a years time, assuming the pile is kept consistently
damp and the leaves are chopped up.

If you are now suddenly an expert on leaf mould then why didn't you know
that compost and leaf mould were two different things? Oh, I forgot,
you're the expert on everything.

On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 02:06:18 -0600, sherwin dubren
wrote:

FarmI wrote:

Why do you make a distinction between leaf mold and compost? Aren't
they the same thing?

No, they aren't the same thing even though compost may have some leaves
included in it.

Leaf mould is made by piling leaves and then letting the pile rot down for a
couple of years without disturbance.

My leaf piles in compost bins take only one year to process. I do not
add any enhancers to them, except for water. It is key to keep these
leaf piles damp, as I can see dry portions never cooking. It is also
important that they are chopped up. Otherwise, they mat together and
this also prevents decomposition.

Leaves have lignin in them

My checking on the web says that stems and wood contain more lignin
than leaves, so I don't think this is the reason for them taking so
long to break down.

and thus
they take a long time to rot and, unlike compost, it is a cold rotting
process rather than a hot one.

Now, my compost piles have some grass clippings in them, so this may
account for the fact that they get nice and hot, even steamy on colder
days. However, I have seen recommendations of 2 parts of grass to
every part of leaves for a pile. In my case, I think the grass is
than 10 percent of the total, but everything cooks just fine in one
year.

Leaves decompose by using fungal
decompostition IIRC whereas compost is made by bacterial decomposition
(again, IIRC).

Leaf mould is valuble as the end result of decayed material is more durable
in the soil than 'normal' compost (because of the lignin).

From what I read, lignum is present in all vascular plants, and occurs
in higher amounts in wood than in leaves.

Another difference is that Leaf mould is made of just leaves and compost is
made of a combination of materials and includes a high nitrogen content
which is not present in leaf mould.

Except for processing time, I don't think the nitrogen affects the
plants covered in leaf compost. There are more natural ways the soil
to fixate itself with nitrogen. My experience is that leaves will
break down in a years time, assuming the pile is kept consistently
damp and the leaves are chopped up.

Sherwin

Some leaves take forever to turn into leaf mould, for example, Plane tree
leaves.

Nonsense. In fact planetreee (sycamore) foliage being thinner with
lacier finer vein structure than most decomposes more readily than
most leaves, much of the spaces between the veins dry and blow away
before the leaves fall... my sycamore leaves (actually London
Planetree) except for the stems are fully decayed within four weeks of
falling while maple leaves can lay about all winter, oak leaves
typically hang on all winter and fall when new growth begins in
spring, and are still recognizable 2-3 years after falling.... conifer
leaves can still be viable ten years later. A pretty good indicator
for which types of leaves decay more readily is to observe which are
more attractive to Japanese beetles and other leaf munching insects...
the more easily digestible the more quickly they will decompose.
Japanese beetles love sycamore, linden, pear, apple, etc., sycamore
about the top of their list, except maybe rose leaves. I've never
seen Japanese beetles attack oaks, maples, beech, birch... the more
resin/tannin the less attractive to munching insects and the more
resistant to decay. Planetree leaves are not at all resinous, in fact
rabbits and deer love them.

You guys are masturbating each other with semantics. The only
distinction between "compost" and "leaf mold" (leaf mold IS compost)
is that with leaf mold the organic matter is composed mainly of
leaves[period] Only total morons (completely uneducated) would argue
a difference between bacteria/fungi and organisms (bacteria/fungi ARE
organisms) in relation to digesting organic matter, they're one and
the same.... doesn't much matter whether organic matter is digested
by mycelium, passing through a beetle, a worm, or a cow.

Of course after all is said "compost" is not a gardener's ultimate
goal, composting is what a gardener does to produce fully decayed
organic matter: humus.

Merriam Webster

: 1com·post

noun
Etymology: Anglo-French, from Medieval Latin compostum, from Latin,
neuter of compositus, compostus, past participle of componere
Date: 1587
1 : a mixture that consists largely of decayed organic matter and is
used for fertilizing and conditioning land
2 : mixture, compound
---

: leaf mold
noun
Date: 1842
1 : a compost or layer composed chiefly of decayed leaves
2 : a mold or mildew that affects foliage
---

: my·ce·li·um

noun
Etymology: New Latin, from myc- + Greek helos nail, wart, callus
Date: 1836
: the mass of interwoven filamentous hyphae that forms especially the vegetative portion of the thallus of a fungus and is often submerged in another body (as of soil or organic matter or the tissues of a host); also : a similar mass of filaments formed by some bacteria (as streptomyces)

On 11/6/2009 11:31 PM, sherwin dubren wrote:
David E. Ross wrote:

Why do you make a distinction between leaf mold and compost? Aren't
they the same thing?

My solution is to use the lawn mower as a vacuum cleaner with a bag
attached. This mixture of chopped up leaves and some grass is more
compact than the whole leaves. This gets dumped into my compost bins.
These bins can fill up initially, but very soon will natureally compact
even more from their own weight or from the rain. You ahould have
enough room in any reasonably sized bins to acommodate your entire
lawn. I only bag my grass clippings once a year after leaf fall to
clean up the leaves. Otherwise, bagging too much will remove too
much nutrients from the lawn.

Sherwin
Others made the distinction for me: Compost starts as 50% green matter
(e.g., grass clippings) and 50% brown matter (e.g., dead leaves). Mine
is about 95% brown matter.

My lawn is an ornamental grass. It grows 6" or more and flops over.
(Yes, I can walk on it; but it's not for children to play.) When it
gets mowed (only once or twice a year), the clippings are not fine. If
I add too much, I can't really stir the pile. Then the clippings mat
down and don't mix with the rest of the pile.

The lawn is mowed in October, before leaves begin to fall. With
different kinds of trees that drop their leaves at different times, I
would have to mow more often, defeating the purpose of planting red
fescue.

You must have some unusual trees in your area. In my area, you find
many of the common trees (Lower Great Lakes). I find that almost all
the leaves fall within a one to two week period. There are just a few
Hangers on, not amounting to be of concern.

The zelkova has started shedding now. The oak follows and seems to take
about two weeks. Only after the oak is bare, the liquidambar then drops
its leaves; that delay is nice because this tree is very colorful in the
fall. When the peach tree drops its leaves, I let them remain as a mulch.

When everything else is bare, then the ash dumps a load; see my
http://www.rossde.com/garden/garden_back.html#tree. This takes about
a month or more. If the winter is especially mild and the Santa Anna
winds are not strong (see
http://www.rossde.com/garden/index.html#santa_ana), it might not drop
its leaves until the end of February or the beginning of March.

The other trees are evergreen and slowly shed all year long. This
includes seven broad-leaf evergreens (four of them are dwarf citrus) and
three podocarpus.

Note my area in my signature below.

With only one or two mowings a year for a rather small lawn, I don't own
a power mower. Instead, I use a lawn service. I don't want to pay them
for extra visits just to pick up leaves.

Using a lawn service should not limit your leaf takeup. I would skip
a cutting as soon as the first leaves fall. Usually, this is in a
cool time of the year when the grass is not growing much anyways.
Then wait till the majority of leaves have falled (two weeks usually)
and have your lawn service bag their cutting. and dump it on your
mulch pile. I do the same using my own mower, but this should work
for you.

I don't think you understand. This is an occasional, infrequent
service. This is NOT a regular service that I can skip.

I use the lawn service only once in the fall and sometimes (not every
year) only once in the spring. This is not a regular service. The
grass is red fescue, an ornamental grass that grows 6" or more and flops
over. It would not need to be mowed at all in the fall except to make
it short enough to rake leaves. If I don't rake them, they will smother
the grass. The ash tree is in the middle of this lawn. If the ash
drops its leaves in December and not March, the one mowing in the fall
is sufficient. If it were not mowed in the fall, I would have it mowed
once a year, in the spring, to encourage fresh growth.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean
Sunset Zone: 21 -- interior Santa Monica Mountains with some ocean
influence (USDA 10a, very close to Sunset Zone 19)
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary