Hi guys,

I have recently moved into a house with quite a large garden containing what can only be described as large weeds and nettles. As well as this there was also a strange sort of grass that was almost hay like which came out of the ground with relative ease. There was also clumps of grass that when pulled came out with lots of roots and soil.
As you can probably tell from my descriptions above I'm not a gardener, and so the next step I took may have been the wrong one. I pulled as any of the weeds out by hand or digging if they were stiff. Most of them came out roots and all but some snapped, I also mowed the rest.
Having read a few threads on here it seems the best thing to have done wou7ld have been to spray some sort of killer whilst they were long. Obviously this option is no longer so I was wondering if there was anything else I could do. I was thinking of digging it all up and pulling out as many weed as poss.
My long term plan is to have one half of the garden turfed and the other half as an allotment.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated

Many Thanks

tref_30

Things like nettles aren't reliably killed by a single application of general systemic weedkiller in midsummer anyway, though an application in late summer is more effective. So dig out any major roots, then let things regrow a bit, and then weedkill them in late summer. It might then be wise to wait till spring before doing anything and see what reappears, in case you need to do it again. You don't really want to lay a lawn until you are really sure you are rid of any nasties, because once they are growing in a lawn they get trickier to get rid of without damaging the lawn. Vegetable plot less of an issue, 'cos you can still dig the roots out.

On Jul 6, 3:18*am, tref_30 wrote:
Hi guys,

I have recently moved into a house with quite a large garden containing
what can only be described as large weeds and nettles. As well as this
there was also a strange sort of grass that was almost hay like which
came out of the ground with relative ease. There was also clumps of
grass that when pulled came out with lots of roots and soil.
As you can probably tell from my descriptions above I'm not a gardener,
and so the next step I took may have been the wrong one. I pulled as any
of the weeds out by hand or digging if they were stiff. Most of them
came out roots and all but some snapped, I also mowed the rest.
Having read a few threads on here it seems the best thing to have done
wou7ld have been to spray some sort of killer whilst they were long.
Obviously this option is no longer

***Not so fast, pal, on ruling out the killer option. The stuff will
probably come up again if there are roots left in the soil.
One approach might be (subject to correction from experts) to water,
thereby encouraging growth. Then, when there's enuff growth, consider
applying Roundup or some other evil agent g.

BTW, how large is "large". Metric or English understood. Sounds
like it might be large for the plastic option: Cover area with opaque
plastic so the sun's heat will bake the hell out of whatever is down
there. Of course that's a Southern California option,
since we have lots of sun (and little water).

Then again, if the area is REALLY large, and you can handle the
expense, have a crew deal with the problem once for all.

so I was wondering if there was
anything else I could do. I was thinking of digging it all up and
pulling out as many weed as poss.
My long term plan is to have one half of the garden turfed and the other
half as an allotment.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated

Many Thanks

HB

Hi tref_30,

I can definitely understand your plight. That sounds like you have
quite a task ahead of you. I would greatly suggest Weed B Gone by
Ortho. It works great and it is pet safe.

On Jul 6, 3:18*am, tref_30 wrote:
Hi guys,

I have recently moved into a house with quite a large garden containing
what can only be described as large weeds and nettles. As well as this
there was also a strange sort of grass that was almost hay like which
came out of the ground with relative ease. There was also clumps of
grass that when pulled came out with lots of roots and soil.
As you can probably tell from my descriptions above I'm not a gardener,
and so the next step I took may have been the wrong one. I pulled as any
of the weeds out by hand or digging if they were stiff. Most of them
came out roots and all but some snapped, I also mowed the rest.
Having read a few threads on here it seems the best thing to have done
wou7ld have been to spray some sort of killer whilst they were long.
Obviously this option is no longer so I was wondering if there was
anything else I could do. I was thinking of digging it all up and
pulling out as many weed as poss.
My long term plan is to have one half of the garden turfed and the other
half as an allotment.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated

Many Thanks

tref_30

--
tref_30

I'm going to suggest this book for you, also:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rodales-Chem.../dp/0878579516

Why? It's not because I'm an organic gardener (I'm not, I garden on the
LISA model, low input sustainable agriculture), but because it has excellent
introductory chapters on soils, on soil fertility, on water and climate, and
on managing weeds, as well as solid information on preparing a site for
flower or vegetable gardens, trees or lawn, and then growing what you want.
If you take the time to read the initial chapters and work through a basic
soil analysis (at least a shake test!) and do the soil preparation and think
through what you want to plant where and why, you'll have a garden that
will look good for many years to come with a whole lot less work and expense
later.

You can't really screw up anything badly with the methods in this book. That's
another reason I like it for people who can only identify a rake 2 out of 3
times. g

What you've done at the moment is set the weeds back a fair bit. But we still
don't know what you've got, or whether it's annual or perennial. Annual
weeds can be controlled pretty easily with pulling or hoeing; perennial weeds
like johnsongrass (unlikely in England!) or yellow nutsedge (Cyperus esculentus)
can spread by underground plant fragments -- pull a yellow nutsedge plant and
you've gotten rid of one plant and started 50 more growing.

The real secret to weed control is to keep the soil covered with plants
you do want -- "canopy closure" in farming terms. If there's bare soil, light
and water, you're going to have weeds.

So here are your choices that I see at this time:

1) Wait till the weeds are growing well and nuke them with a non-specific
herbicide like glyphosate (Roundup). Since you've got a mixed bunch of species,you'll probably have to repeat it several times over the course of months.

2) Use a light occlusive mulch to smother the weeds for several months.
Mow as close as possible, then cover the soil with corrugated cardboard,
old carpet, or 15-30 thicknesses of newspaper or 6" of wood chips. Wait a
few months. Pull the mulch off, add some water and sunlight for a
couple of weeks to get things that survived growing again, and either
dig, re-mulch or nuke with herbicide. (This would be my choice... and I
might consider using a painted-on glyphosate application for certain
very difficult to control weeds, but I don't like wholesale spraying
(commonly known as "spray and pray".) This approach takes several
months to work, bringing you to the fall, which is a good time to plant
cool season grasses like Kentucky bluegrass or most of the fescues.
If you've used cardboard or newspaper, you can till that into the soil.
If you used wool carpet or wood chips, you can compost it and apply it later.

3) Go ahead and till now, raking up all vegetation as it comes up. This is
the hot part of the summer, and a lot of work, but if you need to get
your frustrations out, it might be a viable choice. You'll need to do some
major weed control later, most likely. Plant a cover crop of some sort,
like buckwheat, to help suppress weed growth until you're ready to plant
the entire garden and lawn.

When you've got the weeds under control, chosen the lawn grass you want,
gotten the soil tested and decided how you're going to amend it (if at all),
then you're ready to plant. It's the least work to plant seeds (or sod) when
the conditions are best for that species to grow, and you'll get a lot
fewer weeds poking through the plants you want.

The key to having a nice looking garden or lawn that doesn't drive you nuts
with work and expense is to choose species that will do well under your
conditions. For instance, if you have kids or dogs, you're going to want
a sports-type turfgrass, not something fit for a putting green or a dainty
little moss garden -- you'd be constantly trying to repair the last two.
The more effort you put into it before you plant, the less effort you're going
to need to put into it in the long haul.

In the US, we have an organization in most states called "Master Gardeners",
who are volunteers that are trained in a variety of gardening techniques
and knowledgeable about most common aspects of gardening (and sometimes some
really esoteric stuff, too.) These people are available for consultation on
a variety of gardening problems. You might try to find out if there's a
similar network in the UK. Otherwise, hunt out the best garden centers
you can find and ask for advice and for help identifying your weeds. Or
hire someone knowledgeable on local conditions to help you figure out a plan
of attack that suits both the available energy and cash you can apply to this
set of problems.

Kay

In article ,
Kay Lancaster wrote:

I'm going to suggest this book for you, also:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rodales-Chem...sful/dp/087857
9516

Why? It's not because I'm an organic gardener (I'm not, I garden on the
LISA model, low input sustainable agriculture),

Maybe you could explain this, or recommend a site for a fuller
explanation. The best I've been able to find so far is
"the concepts of LISA range from organic farming at one end of the
spectrum to maximum economic returns on the other."
http://www.soil.ncsu.edu/publications/Soilfacts/AG-439-07_Archived/

You'll have to admit that's a fairly loose definition. Most of the older
definitions I found look a lot like "organic gardening".

I suppose you could be doing ornamental gardening, then you could
include, "Maximizing the use of locally available plants and tree
species".

It is comforting that even as you say you eschew organic gardening per
se, you recommend an organic gardening book for guidance.

I fear I'm becoming even more confused.

but because it has excellent
introductory chapters on soils, on soil fertility, on water and climate, and
on managing weeds, as well as solid information on preparing a site for
flower or vegetable gardens, trees or lawn, and then growing what you want.
If you take the time to read the initial chapters and work through a basic
soil analysis (at least a shake test!) and do the soil preparation and think
through what you want to plant where and why, you'll have a garden that
will look good for many years to come with a whole lot less work and expense
later.

You can't really screw up anything badly with the methods in this book.
That's
another reason I like it for people who can only identify a rake 2 out of 3
times. g

What you've done at the moment is set the weeds back a fair bit. But we
still
don't know what you've got, or whether it's annual or perennial. Annual
weeds can be controlled pretty easily with pulling or hoeing; perennial weeds
like johnsongrass (unlikely in England!) or yellow nutsedge (Cyperus
esculentus)
can spread by underground plant fragments -- pull a yellow nutsedge plant and
you've gotten rid of one plant and started 50 more growing.

The real secret to weed control is to keep the soil covered with plants
you do want -- "canopy closure" in farming terms. If there's bare soil,
light
and water, you're going to have weeds.
Seems this could be addressed by mulch as well in Tref's allotment
portion.


So here are your choices that I see at this time:

1) Wait till the weeds are growing well and nuke them with a non-specific
herbicide like glyphosate (Roundup). Since you've got a mixed bunch of
species,you'll probably have to repeat it several times over the course of
months.

2) Use a light occlusive mulch to smother the weeds for several months.
The above is the method that I use for kitchen gardening, but I never
uncover the soil, unless I'm broadcasting seeds. Otherwise, I use a
dweeble to punch holes in the mulch to put my seedlings into.
My initial layer is news print. and I wait 6 weeks for the paper to
breakdown a bit, because it will initially direct water away from where
you want it.

Mow as close as possible, then cover the soil with corrugated cardboard,
old carpet, or 15-30 thicknesses of newspaper or 6" of wood chips. Wait a
few months. Pull the mulch off, add some water and sunlight for a
couple of weeks to get things that survived growing again, and either
dig, re-mulch or nuke with herbicide. (This would be my choice... and I
might consider using a painted-on glyphosate application for certain
very difficult to control weeds,
I don't want to be a pest myself, but could you mention what weeds might
be of a magnitude of heartiness to require glyphosate?

but I don't like wholesale spraying
(commonly known as "spray and pray".) This approach takes several
months to work, bringing you to the fall, which is a good time to plant
cool season grasses like Kentucky bluegrass or most of the fescues.
If you've used cardboard or newspaper, you can till that into the soil.
If you used wool carpet or wood chips, you can compost it and apply it later.
Do you recommend an initial vegetable garden tilling, or an annual
garden tilling?

3) Go ahead and till now, raking up all vegetation as it comes up. This is
the hot part of the summer, and a lot of work, but if you need to get
your frustrations out, it might be a viable choice.
Or to give your ticky ticker that final shove it needs to go over the
edge.

You'll need to do some
major weed control later, most likely. Plant a cover crop of some sort,
like buckwheat, to help suppress weed growth until you're ready to plant
the entire garden and lawn.

When you've got the weeds under control, chosen the lawn grass you want,
gotten the soil tested and decided how you're going to amend it (if at all),
then you're ready to plant. It's the least work to plant seeds (or sod) when
the conditions are best for that species to grow, and you'll get a lot
fewer weeds poking through the plants you want.

The key to having a nice looking garden or lawn that doesn't drive you nuts
with work and expense is to choose species that will do well under your
conditions. For instance, if you have kids or dogs, you're going to want
a sports-type turfgrass, not something fit for a putting green or a dainty
little moss garden -- you'd be constantly trying to repair the last two.
The more effort you put into it before you plant, the less effort you're
going
to need to put into it in the long haul.
Vegetable gardens (allotments) can be easy. Lawns, no so much.

Gaia's Garden, Second Edition: A Guide To Home-Scale Permaculture
by Toby Hemenway
http://www.amazon.com/Gaias-Garden-S...culture/dp/160
3580298/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271266976&sr=1-1

p.26
Our love of tidy, but not very diverse yards is
imprinted on us by our culture. The immaculate
lawn, under siege from ecological writers every-
where, developed in the mild and evenly moist
climate of Great Britain. Its implications are deeply
woven into our psyche. A lawn in preindustrial
times trumpeted to all that the owner possessed
enough wealth to use some land for sheer orna-
ment, instead of planting all of it to food crops.
And close-mowed grass proclaimed affluence, too:
a herd of sheep large enough to crop the lawn
uniformly short. These indicators of status whis-
per to us down the centuries. By consciously recog-
nizing the influence of this history, we can free
ourselves of it and let go of the reflexive impulse to
roll sod over the entire landscape.

Our addiction to impeccable lawns and soldier
rows of vegetables and flowers is counter to the
tendency of nature and guarantees us constant
WORK. But we don't need to wield trowel, and herbi-
cide with resentment in an eternal war against the
exuberant appetite of chicory and wild lettuce for
fresh-bared soil. Instead we can create conditions
that encourage the plants we want and let nature do
the work.

In the US, we have an organization in most states called "Master Gardeners",
who are volunteers that are trained in a variety of gardening techniques
and knowledgeable about most common aspects of gardening (and sometimes some
really esoteric stuff, too.) These people are available for consultation on
a variety of gardening problems.

Or as "The Cook" keeps telling us
http://www.csrees.usda.gov/Extension/index.html

You might try to find out if there's a
similar network in the UK. Otherwise, hunt out the best garden centers
you can find and ask for advice and for help identifying your weeds. Or
hire someone knowledgeable on local conditions to help you figure out a plan
of attack that suits both the available energy and cash you can apply to this
set of problems.

Kay

Tref_30, you may want to give
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxsPfeSRIFo&feature=relmfu
a look as well. I think it would fit Kay's definition of LISA gardening,
if not, I expect I'll be hearing about it ;O)

--
E Pluribus Unum

Know where your money is tonight?
It's making the lives of Wall Street Bankers more comfortable.

Welcome to the New America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg

On Sat, 07 Jul 2012 12:46:20 -0700, Billy wrote:
In article ,
Kay Lancaster wrote:

I'm going to suggest this book for you, also:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rodales-Chem...sful/dp/087857
9516

Why? It's not because I'm an organic gardener (I'm not, I garden on the
LISA model, low input sustainable agriculture),

Maybe you could explain this, or recommend a site for a fuller
explanation. The best I've been able to find so far is
"the concepts of LISA range from organic farming at one end of the
spectrum to maximum economic returns on the other."
http://www.soil.ncsu.edu/publications/Soilfacts/AG-439-07_Archived/

It's a squishy concept. When it started out, the idea was really low input,
meaning you used what you had locally available, supplementing only with things
that were really needed that were produced elsewhere -- for instance, LISA
does not reject out of hand the use of a "chemical fertilizer" if that's the
best way to sustain yields in an area, and using an organic fertilizer might
mean trucking seaweed to the center of the continent. Nor are you automaticallycondemned to perdition for using herbicides or other pesticides thoughtfully
and selectively when that's about the only economically feasible solution. But
you try to avoid using more than is needed (a painted application of glyphosate,for instance, not a wholesale spraying) and only when it appears to be the
best solution. LISA gardening can be very high return -- for instance,
look at the SVGs in Niger and Senegal, feeding a family of 10 from 60 square
meters: http://tlc.howstuffworks.com/home/su...ens-africa.htm
http://www.theworld.org/2012/06/eco-farming-senegal/

Like organic gardening, you need to really understand what's going on
in your own little artifical ecosystem, and the better you understand,
the less energy you have to put into the system to get rewards out.

You'll have to admit that's a fairly loose definition. Most of the older
definitions I found look a lot like "organic gardening".

I suppose you could be doing ornamental gardening, then you could
include, "Maximizing the use of locally available plants and tree
species".

It is comforting that even as you say you eschew organic gardening per
se, you recommend an organic gardening book for guidance.

I fear I'm becoming even more confused.

'sok, I am often a bit baffled myself. Basically, I don't find some
things that the organic purists bemoan to be intrinsically evil. On the
other hand, I think most people shouldn't be issued anything more lethal
than a fly swatter. I do think the organic contingent has some very valid
points about soil fertility, understanding soil/water/plant/environment
interactions, and trying to leave the place a little better than you found
it.

I happen to like that particular book because I think it does do a good
job of explaining soil structure, fertility, pH, etc, and water management,
and it's pretty hard to hurt yourself with organic gardening techniques
(unless you do the old triple-dig ;-) ) And then it relates the needs of
the plants it talks about back to what you've learned about soil structure,
soil fertility, water utilization, etc. And does so in pretty much plain
English (or plain American English!). It's a good foundation book for
new gardeners, imo.

I consider "high management", where you use lots of inputs to maintain
a crop that wouldn't grow well naturally in the area -- golf greens in
S. California, for instance, rather foolish. You can do high management
organic gardening and it's still high management, which ultimately is not
really sustainable.

So here I sit in the middle of the road urging folks to substitute
knowledge for complete kits of instructions, blessed by whatever group
is promulgating them.

The conditions I meet here in Oregon are far different from those in my
native Iowa, and equally different from the chapparal of S. California.
Prescriptive gardening is more likely to be unsuccessful when it's not
developed for the area and conditions and applied with knowledge. And
since I'm a lazy gardener who'd rather read a book or journal than run
out every day to chop back the new growth on some awful perennial weed,
I tend to use what I know to control a particular weed.


you've gotten rid of one plant and started 50 more growing.

The real secret to weed control is to keep the soil covered with plants
you do want -- "canopy closure" in farming terms. If there's bare soil,
light
and water, you're going to have weeds.
Seems this could be addressed by mulch as well in Tref's allotment
portion.

I think I did in #2, below.



So here are your choices that I see at this time:

1) Wait till the weeds are growing well and nuke them with a non-specific
herbicide like glyphosate (Roundup). Since you've got a mixed bunch of
species,you'll probably have to repeat it several times over the course of
months.

2) Use a light occlusive mulch to smother the weeds for several months.
The above is the method that I use for kitchen gardening, but I never
uncover the soil, unless I'm broadcasting seeds. Otherwise, I use a
dweeble to punch holes in the mulch to put my seedlings into.
^^^^^^^ dibble? Or something else?

My initial layer is news print. and I wait 6 weeks for the paper to
breakdown a bit, because it will initially direct water away from where
you want it.

Do that around here and you've lost half the growing season.
You can do the same thing with cardboard, cut to size, then bent in half
lengthwise.

Or just plain plant-based mulch, though I never have enough. Stuff rots
too fast in our climate.

Mow as close as possible, then cover the soil with corrugated cardboard,
old carpet, or 15-30 thicknesses of newspaper or 6" of wood chips. Wait a
few months. Pull the mulch off, add some water and sunlight for a
couple of weeks to get things that survived growing again, and either
dig, re-mulch or nuke with herbicide. (This would be my choice... and I
might consider using a painted-on glyphosate application for certain
very difficult to control weeds,
I don't want to be a pest myself, but could you mention what weeds might
be of a magnitude of heartiness to require glyphosate?

Johnsongrass, yellow nutsedge, Striga asiatica, Equisetum arvense can all get
so far out of control that the only economically feasible method might be
an herbicide. In the case of Striga, the seeds are so small and the impact
so potentially devastating, I'm of the shoot first and ask questions later
school.


but I don't like wholesale spraying
(commonly known as "spray and pray".) This approach takes several
months to work, bringing you to the fall, which is a good time to plant
cool season grasses like Kentucky bluegrass or most of the fescues.
If you've used cardboard or newspaper, you can till that into the soil.
If you used wool carpet or wood chips, you can compost it and apply it later.
Do you recommend an initial vegetable garden tilling, or an annual
garden tilling?

Depends on where you're gardening, how you're gardening and what you're growing.
And if you need the exercise. I'm not a particular adherent to any one
school of gardening.

But since he's in a total renovation setting, being able to work the
mulch into the soil instead of having to find a home
for the old stinky carpet is a whole lot easier. The usual enemy of first
time gardeners is biting off a huge project and running out of energy.
My mental image of this fellow's land, at the moment, is lots of lumps and
bumps he's going to want to smooth out before seeding or sodding the lawn,
and most urban soils are pretty well compacted, though abundant nettles would
tend to say this soil isn't too badly compacted. Still, I think I'd probably
be out with the rototiller if I were doing something like this.


3) Go ahead and till now, raking up all vegetation as it comes up. This is
the hot part of the summer, and a lot of work, but if you need to get
your frustrations out, it might be a viable choice.
Or to give your ticky ticker that final shove it needs to go over the
edge.

I dunno which is worse... exertion during hot weather or letting the
frustrations build. g Back when I had a back worth mentioning, I
dug many a hole for destressing.

You'll need to do some
major weed control later, most likely. Plant a cover crop of some sort,
like buckwheat, to help suppress weed growth until you're ready to plant
the entire garden and lawn.

When you've got the weeds under control, chosen the lawn grass you want,
gotten the soil tested and decided how you're going to amend it (if at all),
then you're ready to plant. It's the least work to plant seeds (or sod) when
the conditions are best for that species to grow, and you'll get a lot
fewer weeds poking through the plants you want.

The key to having a nice looking garden or lawn that doesn't drive you nuts
with work and expense is to choose species that will do well under your
conditions. For instance, if you have kids or dogs, you're going to want
a sports-type turfgrass, not something fit for a putting green or a dainty
little moss garden -- you'd be constantly trying to repair the last two.
The more effort you put into it before you plant, the less effort you're
going
to need to put into it in the long haul.
Vegetable gardens (allotments) can be easy. Lawns, no so much.

I'm not sure I'd agree with that statement, particularly British lawns.
In the US we strive for the perfect monoculture of Kentucky bluegrass or
similar Eurasian weed, and go crazy if a little clover or the odd dandelion
creep in.

British lawns, ime, tend to be more like a mowed (or besheeped)
version of Durer's Das Grosse Rasenstuck (please pardon the lack of umlauts):
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_gro...asenst%C3%BCck

Some of the tree plantations, on the other hand, are as precisely lined up as
headstones in a military cemetary.


Gaia's Garden, Second Edition: A Guide To Home-Scale Permaculture
by Toby Hemenway
http://www.amazon.com/Gaias-Garden-S...culture/dp/160
3580298/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271266976&sr=1-1

p.26
Our love of tidy, but not very diverse yards is
imprinted on us by our culture. The immaculate
lawn, under siege from ecological writers every-
where, developed in the mild and evenly moist
climate of Great Britain. Its implications are deeply
woven into our psyche. A lawn in preindustrial
times trumpeted to all that the owner possessed
enough wealth to use some land for sheer orna-
ment, instead of planting all of it to food crops.
And close-mowed grass proclaimed affluence, too:
a herd of sheep large enough to crop the lawn
uniformly short. These indicators of status whis-
per to us down the centuries. By consciously recog-
nizing the influence of this history, we can free
ourselves of it and let go of the reflexive impulse to
roll sod over the entire landscape.

But when I've walked some of the old British lawns -- even
in places that "should" have been impeccably maintained, they
were far more diverse than the lawns we get shown in US ads.

And lawns can serve important purposes in human ecology also;
in areas prone to forest fires, a good sized firebreak can
stop, or at least slow, a wildfire.


Our addiction to impeccable lawns and soldier
rows of vegetables and flowers is counter to the
tendency of nature and guarantees us constant
WORK. But we don't need to wield trowel, and herbi-
cide with resentment in an eternal war against the
exuberant appetite of chicory and wild lettuce for
fresh-bared soil. Instead we can create conditions
that encourage the plants we want and let nature do
the work.


Yup, and that's pretty much the way I do "lawn". I have the
additional parameter that we've got a septic system, and lawn
is about all you want to plant over a septic drainfield.

But learning to "lawn" with minimal work for maximum effort requires you
to learn about how plants grow and why they grow, and why they grow where
they do. With spray and pray, you just need to know how to read the bottle
and the phone number for poison control.


In the US, we have an organization in most states called "Master Gardeners",
who are volunteers that are trained in a variety of gardening techniques
and knowledgeable about most common aspects of gardening (and sometimes some
really esoteric stuff, too.) These people are available for consultation on
a variety of gardening problems.

Or as "The Cook" keeps telling us
http://www.csrees.usda.gov/Extension/index.html

You might try to find out if there's a
similar network in the UK. Otherwise, hunt out the best garden centers
you can find and ask for advice and for help identifying your weeds. Or
hire someone knowledgeable on local conditions to help you figure out a plan
of attack that suits both the available energy and cash you can apply to this
set of problems.

Kay

Tref_30, you may want to give
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxsPfeSRIFo&feature=relmfu
a look as well. I think it would fit Kay's definition of LISA gardening,
if not, I expect I'll be hearing about it ;O)

Yeah, it's well within what I'd consider to be LISA.

In article ,
Kay Lancaster wrote:

On Sat, 07 Jul 2012 12:46:20 -0700, Billy wrote:
In article ,
Kay Lancaster wrote:

I'm going to suggest this book for you, also:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rodales-Chem...cessful/dp/087
857
9516

Why? It's not because I'm an organic gardener (I'm not, I garden on the
LISA model, low input sustainable agriculture),

Maybe you could explain this, or recommend a site for a fuller
explanation. The best I've been able to find so far is
"the concepts of LISA range from organic farming at one end of the
spectrum to maximum economic returns on the other."
http://www.soil.ncsu.edu/publications/Soilfacts/AG-439-07_Archived/

It's a squishy concept. When it started out, the idea was really low input,
meaning you used what you had locally available, supplementing only with
things
that were really needed that were produced elsewhere -- for instance, LISA
does not reject out of hand the use of a "chemical fertilizer" if that's the
best way to sustain yields in an area, and using an organic fertilizer might
mean trucking seaweed to the center of the continent. Nor are you
automaticallycondemned to perdition for using herbicides or other pesticides
thoughtfully
and selectively when that's about the only economically feasible solution.
But
you try to avoid using more than is needed (a painted application of
glyphosate,for instance, not a wholesale spraying) and only when it appears
to be the
best solution. LISA gardening can be very high return -- for instance,
look at the SVGs in Niger and Senegal, feeding a family of 10 from 60 square
meters: http://tlc.howstuffworks.com/home/su...ens-africa.htm
http://www.theworld.org/2012/06/eco-farming-senegal/

Like organic gardening, you need to really understand what's going on
in your own little artifical ecosystem, and the better you understand,
the less energy you have to put into the system to get rewards out.

You'll have to admit that's a fairly loose definition. Most of the older
definitions I found look a lot like "organic gardening".

I suppose you could be doing ornamental gardening, then you could
include, "Maximizing the use of locally available plants and tree
species".

It is comforting that even as you say you eschew organic gardening per
se, you recommend an organic gardening book for guidance.

I fear I'm becoming even more confused.

'sok, I am often a bit baffled myself. Basically, I don't find some
things that the organic purists bemoan to be intrinsically evil. On the
other hand, I think most people shouldn't be issued anything more lethal
than a fly swatter. I do think the organic contingent has some very valid
points about soil fertility, understanding soil/water/plant/environment
interactions, and trying to leave the place a little better than you found
it.

I happen to like that particular book because I think it does do a good
job of explaining soil structure, fertility, pH, etc, and water management,
and it's pretty hard to hurt yourself with organic gardening techniques
(unless you do the old triple-dig ;-) ) And then it relates the needs of
the plants it talks about back to what you've learned about soil structure,
soil fertility, water utilization, etc. And does so in pretty much plain
English (or plain American English!). It's a good foundation book for
new gardeners, imo.

I consider "high management", where you use lots of inputs to maintain
a crop that wouldn't grow well naturally in the area -- golf greens in
S. California, for instance, rather foolish. You can do high management
organic gardening and it's still high management, which ultimately is not
really sustainable.

So here I sit in the middle of the road urging folks to substitute
knowledge for complete kits of instructions, blessed by whatever group
is promulgating them.

The conditions I meet here in Oregon are far different from those in my
native Iowa, and equally different from the chapparal of S. California.
Prescriptive gardening is more likely to be unsuccessful when it's not
developed for the area and conditions and applied with knowledge. And
since I'm a lazy gardener who'd rather read a book or journal than run
out every day to chop back the new growth on some awful perennial weed,
I tend to use what I know to control a particular weed.


you've gotten rid of one plant and started 50 more growing.

The real secret to weed control is to keep the soil covered with plants
you do want -- "canopy closure" in farming terms. If there's bare soil,
light
and water, you're going to have weeds.
Seems this could be addressed by mulch as well in Tref's allotment
portion.

I think I did in #2, below.



So here are your choices that I see at this time:

1) Wait till the weeds are growing well and nuke them with a non-specific
herbicide like glyphosate (Roundup). Since you've got a mixed bunch of
species,you'll probably have to repeat it several times over the course of
months.

2) Use a light occlusive mulch to smother the weeds for several months.
The above is the method that I use for kitchen gardening, but I never
uncover the soil, unless I'm broadcasting seeds. Otherwise, I use a
dweeble to punch holes in the mulch to put my seedlings into.
^^^^^^^ dibble? Or something else?

dib·ble (dbl)
n.

tref_30 wrote:
Hi guys,

I have recently moved into a house with quite a large garden
containing what can only be described as large weeds and nettles. As
well as this there was also a strange sort of grass that was almost
hay like which came out of the ground with relative ease. There was
also clumps of grass that when pulled came out with lots of roots and
soil.
As you can probably tell from my descriptions above I'm not a
gardener, and so the next step I took may have been the wrong one. I
pulled as any of the weeds out by hand or digging if they were stiff.
Most of them came out roots and all but some snapped, I also mowed
the rest.
Having read a few threads on here it seems the best thing to have done
wou7ld have been to spray some sort of killer whilst they were long.
Obviously this option is no longer so I was wondering if there was
anything else I could do. I was thinking of digging it all up and
pulling out as many weed as poss.
My long term plan is to have one half of the garden turfed and the
other half as an allotment.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated


I had good results in a weedy area when I bought this house by rototilling the
entire area, then doing it again every few weeks for 2 or 3 months. Any weeds
that popped up would get tilled under and die. It actually ended up relatively
weed free.

In article , "Bob F"
wrote:

tref_30 wrote:
Hi guys,

I have recently moved into a house with quite a large garden
containing what can only be described as large weeds and nettles. As
well as this there was also a strange sort of grass that was almost
hay like which came out of the ground with relative ease. There was
also clumps of grass that when pulled came out with lots of roots and
soil.
As you can probably tell from my descriptions above I'm not a
gardener, and so the next step I took may have been the wrong one. I
pulled as any of the weeds out by hand or digging if they were stiff.
Most of them came out roots and all but some snapped, I also mowed
the rest.
Having read a few threads on here it seems the best thing to have done
wou7ld have been to spray some sort of killer whilst they were long.
Obviously this option is no longer so I was wondering if there was
anything else I could do. I was thinking of digging it all up and
pulling out as many weed as poss.
My long term plan is to have one half of the garden turfed and the
other half as an allotment.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated


I had good results in a weedy area when I bought this house by rototilling
the
entire area, then doing it again every few weeks for 2 or 3 months. Any weeds
that popped up would get tilled under and die. It actually ended up
relatively
weed free.

And probably worm free as well with the entire ecology disrupted. This
kind of "terracide" may be OK for trophy, grass lawns, but it will cost
you on inputs for vegetable gardens (allotments) as it will accelerate
the decomposition of the organic material in the soil. This will lock
you into a continuing pattern of rototilling, and destroying a healthy
soil environment, so that you can incorporate more organic material into
it.

Deep tilling doesn't apply to hoeing a row or using a pitchfork to turn
over the first few inches of soil. Nor does it apply to tilling in, say,
prairie sod to establish a new garden. Deep tilling means repeatedly
cutting up soil with a roto-tiller.

You see, soil is alive. In fact, it's like the New York City of the
plant world -- a complex mix of fine rock particles, organic matter,
water, air, microorganisms and other small critters. In fact, healthy
soil is chock-a-block FULL of living things such as plant roots,
animals, insects, bacteria, fungi and other organisms. It's a jungle
down there.

"Managing your soils to keep this living system thriving can make the
difference between gardening success and failure," says Rodale's
Encyclopedia of Organic Gardening.

Soil is more than dirt. In fact, it's 50 percent minerals and 50 percent
water and air. Half of soil is minerals, and the rest is water and air.
The spaces between the minerals (made of tiny rock fragments) are the
holding areas for soil water and air, the super highways by which
nutrients travel and connect everything in the soil.

Ideal soil is friable, which means the various particles form little
clusters with air pockets between them.

To get good soil you can choose from numerous gardening practices that
support healthy soil. For example:
+ Raised beds
+ Topping with mulch (easy)
+ Turning compost in the top 4 to 6 inches (hard work, ugh)

On the flip side, here are some things that actually harm soil structu
+ Walking on the soil
+ Using chemical fertilizers (they kill friendly organisms and acidify
the soil over time)
+ Deep tilling or roto-tilling

"Roto-tilling destroys the network of fungal hyphae that gives soil
structure," he explained." This includes the mychorrhizal network that
is so important to plants."

Mycorrhizal (MY-coh-RIZE-ul) fungi are multi-celled organisms that form
special "I'll scratch your back if you'll scratch mine" relationships
with plant roots. As recent electron microscope images have shown, these
organisms develop into long chains called hyphae (HIGH-fee) and get
energy from the plant and help supply nutrients to the plant. In other
words, they depend on each other for survival. They actually move
nutrients around the garden to where they are needed.

Roto-tilling dislocates and chops up small invertebrate animals (such as
insects, worms and spiders), and bacteria, and it kills worms and
destroys aeration and drainage. "The soil looks nice and smooth, but it
quickly looses structure.

Control weeds with mulches, in the case of annuals and vegetables, green
mulches and in the case of perennials, shrubs and trees, brown mulches."
"All plants--grass, trees, shrubs, agricultural crops--depend on the
food web for their nutrition."----Soil and Water Conservation Society

The idea is to avoid compacting and deep-tilling the soil, which harms
the structure. It would be trying to survive after tearing down the
walls of houses, damaging the streets and other transportation networks,
destroying water lines and other utilities, and limiting access to food.
Living would be tough. Some people would get sick and die. Plus, it
would take a long time to rebuild.

Supporting soil structure "is just good science. "Roto-tilling is
definitely, out. The only time it is acceptable is when you want to
plant vegetables and annuals in areas just claimed from forests. You
want to increase the bacterial dominance and rototilling does that. The
fungal structure will return if organic fertilizers are used."

--
E Pluribus Unum

If God wanted us to vote, he would have given us a candidate.

Welcome to the New America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg