Seed life
 

My wife is the daughter of a depression baby, and has a sometimes bad
habit of keeping things she should throw away.

We planted some Bush contender string beans last year, nice germination
time, and great growers and producers right into frost.

We had seeds left over, which she kept in a plastic ziploc in the garden
shed, temps sometimes very hot, and then through a freezing winter.

This year, it seems they to be taking a long time to germinate. Is
there a good estimate of how long seeds are good for? I would say to
buy just enough for what you need each year, but perhaps you find a
strain that you really like, and don't know if they will carry that at
the seed store next year.

And tips on storage from season to season would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Steve

Seed life
 

SteveB wrote:

My wife is the daughter of a depression baby, and has a sometimes bad
habit of keeping things she should throw away.

We planted some Bush contender string beans last year, nice germination
time, and great growers and producers right into frost.

We had seeds left over, which she kept in a plastic ziploc in the garden
shed, temps sometimes very hot, and then through a freezing winter.

This year, it seems they to be taking a long time to germinate. Is
there a good estimate of how long seeds are good for? I would say to
buy just enough for what you need each year, but perhaps you find a
strain that you really like, and don't know if they will carry that at
the seed store next year.

And tips on storage from season to season would be appreciated.

407 days, 15 hours, and 12 seconds... +/- 2 seconds.

Seed life
 

On 5/26/2014 11:30 PM, SteveB wrote:
My wife is the daughter of a depression baby, and has a sometimes bad
habit of keeping things she should throw away.

We planted some Bush contender string beans last year, nice germination
time, and great growers and producers right into frost.

We had seeds left over, which she kept in a plastic ziploc in the garden
shed, temps sometimes very hot, and then through a freezing winter.

This year, it seems they to be taking a long time to germinate. Is
there a good estimate of how long seeds are good for? I would say to
buy just enough for what you need each year, but perhaps you find a
strain that you really like, and don't know if they will carry that at
the seed store next year.

And tips on storage from season to season would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Steve
I have seeds in the refrigerator that have been there ten years or more.
Germination rate drops even with chilling, sometimes they work,
sometimes they don't. My wife has a habit of leaving the container of
seeds on the kitchen table for a few days if I don't watch her. Your
Contenders may or may not, in my opinion NOT, germinate.

I've been growing the same strain of crowder peas for twenty years, each
year I let a few pods stay on the vine to ripen fully, shuck them and
put them into a paper envelope and keep them until the following year.
These are heirloom seeds so are okay, some of the specialty seeds may
revert to one or more of the original parents.

George

Seed life
 

On Monday, May 26, 2014 9:30:48 PM UTC-7, SteveB wrote:
My wife is the daughter of a depression baby, and has a sometimes bad

habit of keeping things she should throw away.



We planted some Bush contender string beans last year, nice germination

time, and great growers and producers right into frost.



We had seeds left over, which she kept in a plastic ziploc in the garden

shed, temps sometimes very hot, and then through a freezing winter.



This year, it seems they to be taking a long time to germinate. Is

there a good estimate of how long seeds are good for? I would say to

buy just enough for what you need each year, but perhaps you find a

strain that you really like, and don't know if they will carry that at

the seed store next year.



And tips on storage from season to season would be appreciated.

NOT in garden shed, subject to temperature swings!!!

In refrigerator or freezer. Double plastic bags VERY tightly sealed to protect against moisture. Point opening of outside bag to bottom of inside bag.

How long since beans planted, compared with last year germination time? Weather conditions comparable? Warmth of ground matters.

How long is it taking for seeds of OTHER plants **with comparable germination times?**

If any seeds left above ground, try the old gimmick of spreading them between paper towels kept continually most. Should find out within +- a week if viable.

Good luck.

PS - Not to get into your domestic scene, but -- with respect - WHO decides what "should" be thrown away is a risky call...

HB

Seed life
 

On 5/26/2014 11:30 PM, SteveB wrote:
My wife is the daughter of a depression baby, and has a sometimes bad
habit of keeping things she should throw away.

We planted some Bush contender string beans last year, nice
germination time, and great growers and producers right into frost.

We had seeds left over, which she kept in a plastic ziploc in the
garden shed, temps sometimes very hot, and then through a freezing
winter.

This year, it seems they to be taking a long time to germinate. Is
there a good estimate of how long seeds are good for? I would say to
buy just enough for what you need each year, but perhaps you find a
strain that you really like, and don't know if they will carry that at
the seed store next year.

And tips on storage from season to season would be appreciated.

Seed companies just keep their bulk seed in the warehouse/bulk storage
facilities, where it stays dry and safe from wide temperature swings.
The following year they'll perform germination testing and if
necessary add fresher seeds to bring the germination rate up to what
is stated on their package labeling. All seed companies do this, which
is why the label says, "Packed for calendar year", instead of "grown
for" or "harvested in" calendar year.

For home gardeners dealing with small amounts, the seed company I
worked for suggested storing the left-over seed packets in clean, dry
glass jars indoors to ensure the seeds were kept dry.

Properly stored - i.e. kept dry and safe from temperature swings -
most vegetable seeds will retain most of their germinating ability for
at least a couple more years.

Seed life
 

SteveB wrote:
My wife is the daughter of a depression baby, and has a sometimes bad
habit of keeping things she should throw away.

We planted some Bush contender string beans last year, nice
germination time, and great growers and producers right into frost.

We had seeds left over, which she kept in a plastic ziploc in the
garden shed, temps sometimes very hot, and then through a freezing
winter.
This year, it seems they to be taking a long time to germinate. Is
there a good estimate of how long seeds are good for? I would say to
buy just enough for what you need each year, but perhaps you find a
strain that you really like, and don't know if they will carry that at
the seed store next year.


No. You will find several tables of viability of seeds available on the
web. The problem is that the time is very dependent on species (from a few
months to tens of year), the conditions they are stored under and how you
define viability.

On the last point seeds do not all cease to germinate at a given interval
after harvest. You might get 95% after a year, 70% after two and 30% after
three, and so on until you eventually reach zero. If you are growing
commercially or only have 5 seeds, 30% might be quite unacceptable, if you
have lots of seed and you are prepared to wait and plant out those that
germinate it might be fine.


And tips on storage from season to season would be appreciated.


Cool and dry. Not in the shed!

David

Seed life
 

On 28/05/2014 12:23 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
On 5/26/2014 11:30 PM, SteveB wrote:
My wife is the daughter of a depression baby, and has a sometimes bad
habit of keeping things she should throw away.

We planted some Bush contender string beans last year, nice
germination time, and great growers and producers right into frost.

We had seeds left over, which she kept in a plastic ziploc in the
garden shed, temps sometimes very hot, and then through a freezing
winter.

This year, it seems they to be taking a long time to germinate. Is
there a good estimate of how long seeds are good for? I would say to
buy just enough for what you need each year, but perhaps you find a
strain that you really like, and don't know if they will carry that at
the seed store next year.

And tips on storage from season to season would be appreciated.

Seed companies just keep their bulk seed in the warehouse/bulk storage
facilities, where it stays dry and safe from wide temperature swings.
The following year they'll perform germination testing and if necessary
add fresher seeds to bring the germination rate up to what is stated on
their package labeling. All seed companies do this, which is why the
label says, "Packed for calendar year", instead of "grown for" or
"harvested in" calendar year.

For home gardeners dealing with small amounts, the seed company I worked
for suggested storing the left-over seed packets in clean, dry glass
jars indoors to ensure the seeds were kept dry.

Whew! Sounds like I'm doing the right thing. I store my seeds in my
large walk in pantry in the middle of the house where the temperature
stays not too hot and not too cool. I store my saved seeds in recycled
glass pill bottles or, for purchased seed, in the original packets in
metal boxes.

Properly stored - i.e. kept dry and safe from temperature swings - most
vegetable seeds will retain most of their germinating ability for at
least a couple more years.

And some gardeners prefer older seeds too - pumpkin is one seed that
I've been told a few times does better if the seed is older rather than
fresh.

Seed life
 

On 5/28/2014 1:42 AM, Fran Farmer wrote:
On 28/05/2014 12:23 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
On 5/26/2014 11:30 PM, SteveB wrote:
My wife is the daughter of a depression baby, and has a sometimes bad
habit of keeping things she should throw away.

We planted some Bush contender string beans last year, nice
germination time, and great growers and producers right into frost.

We had seeds left over, which she kept in a plastic ziploc in the
garden shed, temps sometimes very hot, and then through a freezing
winter.

This year, it seems they to be taking a long time to germinate. Is
there a good estimate of how long seeds are good for? I would say to
buy just enough for what you need each year, but perhaps you find a
strain that you really like, and don't know if they will carry that at
the seed store next year.

And tips on storage from season to season would be appreciated.

Seed companies just keep their bulk seed in the warehouse/bulk storage
facilities, where it stays dry and safe from wide temperature swings.
The following year they'll perform germination testing and if necessary
add fresher seeds to bring the germination rate up to what is stated on
their package labeling. All seed companies do this, which is why the
label says, "Packed for calendar year", instead of "grown for" or
"harvested in" calendar year.

For home gardeners dealing with small amounts, the seed company I
worked
for suggested storing the left-over seed packets in clean, dry glass
jars indoors to ensure the seeds were kept dry.

Whew! Sounds like I'm doing the right thing. I store my seeds in my
large walk in pantry in the middle of the house where the temperature
stays not too hot and not too cool. I store my saved seeds in
recycled glass pill bottles or, for purchased seed, in the original
packets in metal boxes.

Properly stored - i.e. kept dry and safe from temperature swings - most
vegetable seeds will retain most of their germinating ability for at
least a couple more years.

And some gardeners prefer older seeds too - pumpkin is one seed that
I've been told a few times does better if the seed is older rather
than fresh.


The owner of the seed company I worked for told me that was true of
tomato seeds, too. Though I did the germination testing for the
company, I can't say if that was really true, because I never saved a
specific sample for long-term testing. We just tested what was held
over every year and adjusted with fresh seed as necessary.

Oh - and when a customer complained about poor germination, we'd ask
for a sample of the seed (assuming there was any left) and tested
that, too. Invariably, it met specs, meaning the poor germination was
due to environmental conditions, not that it was non-viable seed.
Ironically, the fad now is for 'organic' seeds, most usually meaning
seed that isn't treated with a fungicide to reduce the risk of
decaying before it sprouts. If you want untreated seed, fine, but if
the weather doesn't cooperate it will have a greater chance of rotting
rather than sprouting.

Seed life
 

Todd writes:

On 05/28/2014 05:25 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
On 5/28/2014 1:42 AM, Fran Farmer wrote:
On 28/05/2014 12:23 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
On 5/26/2014 11:30 PM, SteveB wrote:
My wife is the daughter of a depression baby, and has a sometimes bad
habit of keeping things she should throw away.

We planted some Bush contender string beans last year, nice
germination time, and great growers and producers right into frost.

We had seeds left over, which she kept in a plastic ziploc in the
garden shed, temps sometimes very hot, and then through a freezing
winter.

This year, it seems they to be taking a long time to germinate. Is
there a good estimate of how long seeds are good for? I would say to
buy just enough for what you need each year, but perhaps you find a
strain that you really like, and don't know if they will carry that at
the seed store next year.

And tips on storage from season to season would be appreciated.

Seed companies just keep their bulk seed in the warehouse/bulk storage
facilities, where it stays dry and safe from wide temperature swings.
The following year they'll perform germination testing and if necessary
add fresher seeds to bring the germination rate up to what is stated on
their package labeling. All seed companies do this, which is why the
label says, "Packed for calendar year", instead of "grown for" or
"harvested in" calendar year.

For home gardeners dealing with small amounts, the seed company I
worked
for suggested storing the left-over seed packets in clean, dry glass
jars indoors to ensure the seeds were kept dry.

Whew! Sounds like I'm doing the right thing. I store my seeds in my
large walk in pantry in the middle of the house where the temperature
stays not too hot and not too cool. I store my saved seeds in
recycled glass pill bottles or, for purchased seed, in the original
packets in metal boxes.

Properly stored - i.e. kept dry and safe from temperature swings - most
vegetable seeds will retain most of their germinating ability for at
least a couple more years.

And some gardeners prefer older seeds too - pumpkin is one seed that
I've been told a few times does better if the seed is older rather
than fresh.


The owner of the seed company I worked for told me that was true of
tomato seeds, too. Though I did the germination testing for the company,
I can't say if that was really true, because I never saved a specific
sample for long-term testing. We just tested what was held over every
year and adjusted with fresh seed as necessary.

Hi Moe,

Not to ask too basic a question, but do seeds need to "breath"?
(Do they need a source of air?)

No, there is no respiration going on in a seed.

And, do you have to be careful not the "Freeze" them (water
in the seed crystallizing)?

Freezing seeds enhances their storage time.

Oh - and when a customer complained about poor germination, we'd ask for
a sample of the seed (assuming there was any left) and tested that, too.
Invariably, it met specs, meaning the poor germination was due to
environmental conditions, not that it was non-viable seed. Ironically,
the fad now is for 'organic' seeds, most usually meaning seed that isn't
treated with a fungicide to reduce the risk of decaying before it
sprouts. If you want untreated seed, fine, but if the weather doesn't
cooperate it will have a greater chance of rotting rather than sprouting.

I try to do all organic (I am Paleo/diabetic and their are a lot of

I can't see how anyone can be "Paleo/diabetic".
The first part is the weird idea that eating like a caveman is good for
you. The second part is a disease.

allergies in the family). I have always never paid much attention
to if my seeds or sprouts are "Organic". I figured that by the
time I got around to eating the things that the plants themselves
would have processed the chemicals to harmless. Your thoughts?

"Organic" means pay more for stuff.

--
Dan Espen

Seed life
 

Todd wrote:

Hi Moe,

Not to ask too basic a question, but do seeds need to "breath"?
(Do they need a source of air?)


Until they start to germinate the amount of oxygen they need is miniscule,
for practical purposes zero, so they will be quite happy in a sealed
container for a long time. I imagine this is dependent on temperature to
some degree. Note that if you do want them to germinate properly they do
need air as their metabolism starts up and they converts stored starches and
oils into new plant tissue, inhaling oxygen and exhaling CO2.

And, do you have to be careful not the "Freeze" them (water
in the seed crystallizing)?


Apparently freezing is OK. The seed vault at Svalbard is kept at -18C
(about 0 F) with seeds in sealed packets. I wouldn't be repeatedly freezing
and thawing them however, as might happen in an outbuilding in a cold
climate. For most purposes cool dry conditions will suffice. The more
important part is the dry.


D

Seed life
 

On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 11:42:40 PM UTC-7, Fran Farmer wrote:
On 28/05/2014 12:23 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:

On 5/26/2014 11:30 PM, SteveB wrote:



And some gardeners prefer older seeds too - pumpkin is one seed that

I've been told a few times does better if the seed is older rather than

fresh.

That sounds wildly counter-intuitive. Did your interlocutors say why?

HB

Seed life
 

On 28/05/2014 10:25 PM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
On 5/28/2014 1:42 AM, Fran Farmer wrote:
On 28/05/2014 12:23 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
On 5/26/2014 11:30 PM, SteveB wrote:
My wife is the daughter of a depression baby, and has a sometimes bad
habit of keeping things she should throw away.

We planted some Bush contender string beans last year, nice
germination time, and great growers and producers right into frost.

We had seeds left over, which she kept in a plastic ziploc in the
garden shed, temps sometimes very hot, and then through a freezing
winter.

This year, it seems they to be taking a long time to germinate. Is
there a good estimate of how long seeds are good for? I would say to
buy just enough for what you need each year, but perhaps you find a
strain that you really like, and don't know if they will carry that at
the seed store next year.

And tips on storage from season to season would be appreciated.

Seed companies just keep their bulk seed in the warehouse/bulk storage
facilities, where it stays dry and safe from wide temperature swings.
The following year they'll perform germination testing and if necessary
add fresher seeds to bring the germination rate up to what is stated on
their package labeling. All seed companies do this, which is why the
label says, "Packed for calendar year", instead of "grown for" or
"harvested in" calendar year.

For home gardeners dealing with small amounts, the seed company I
worked
for suggested storing the left-over seed packets in clean, dry glass
jars indoors to ensure the seeds were kept dry.

Whew! Sounds like I'm doing the right thing. I store my seeds in my
large walk in pantry in the middle of the house where the temperature
stays not too hot and not too cool. I store my saved seeds in
recycled glass pill bottles or, for purchased seed, in the original
packets in metal boxes.

Properly stored - i.e. kept dry and safe from temperature swings - most
vegetable seeds will retain most of their germinating ability for at
least a couple more years.

And some gardeners prefer older seeds too - pumpkin is one seed that
I've been told a few times does better if the seed is older rather
than fresh.


The owner of the seed company I worked for told me that was true of
tomato seeds, too.

That's interesting. I hadn't ever heard that before. I'll tuck it into
my memory banks and try it next year with some older seed.

Though I did the germination testing for the company,
I can't say if that was really true, because I never saved a specific
sample for long-term testing. We just tested what was held over every
year and adjusted with fresh seed as necessary.

Oh - and when a customer complained about poor germination, we'd ask for
a sample of the seed (assuming there was any left) and tested that, too.
Invariably, it met specs, meaning the poor germination was due to
environmental conditions, not that it was non-viable seed. Ironically,
the fad now is for 'organic' seeds, most usually meaning seed that isn't
treated with a fungicide to reduce the risk of decaying before it
sprouts. If you want untreated seed, fine, but if the weather doesn't
cooperate it will have a greater chance of rotting rather than sprouting.

Thankfully, seeds in my part of Australia are more in danger of failing
to sprout due to dry conditions rather than rotting.

Seed life
 

On 29/05/2014 2:28 PM, Higgs Boson wrote:
On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 11:42:40 PM UTC-7, Fran Farmer wrote:
On 28/05/2014 12:23 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:

On 5/26/2014 11:30 PM, SteveB wrote:



And some gardeners prefer older seeds too - pumpkin is one seed that

I've been told a few times does better if the seed is older rather than

fresh.

That sounds wildly counter-intuitive. Did your interlocutors say why?

No.

Seed life
 

Higgs Boson said:
On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 11:42:40 PM UTC-7, Fran Farmer wrote:
On 28/05/2014 12:23 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:

On 5/26/2014 11:30 PM, SteveB wrote:



And some gardeners prefer older seeds too - pumpkin is one seed that

I've been told a few times does better if the seed is older rather than

fresh.

That sounds wildly counter-intuitive. Did your interlocutors say why?

I've noticed that sometimes the plants that grow from my older squash seeds
are more likely to skip the first flush of male flowers and get right to producing
female flowers. Most particularly this seems to be true of the C. pepo types
(zuchinni, summer squash, delicata, acorn).

--
Pat in Plymouth MI

"Yes, swooping is bad."

email valid but not regularly monitored

Seed life
 

Todd writes:

On 05/28/2014 12:27 PM, Dan.Espen wrote:
I can't see how anyone can be "Paleo/diabetic".
The first part is the weird idea that eating like a caveman is good for
you. The second part is a disease.

Hi Dan,

Paleo keeps you from getting T2 Diabetes. It also helps
you heal from it.

Also, T2 Diabetes is not a "disease". It is an "injury"
(carbohydrate poisoning) and it is self inflicted.
I speak from experience.

You are stating your opinions as if they are facts.
Words have meaning, and you don't get to define them:

Type 2 diabetes is a lifelong (chronic) disease in which there are
high levels of sugar (glucose) in the blood. Type 2 diabetes is the
most common form of diabetes.

Here is a great web site, if you want to follow up
on Diabetes from a Paleo perspective:

http://www.diabetes-warrior.net/
http://www.diabetes-warrior.net/about-me-and-diabetes/

As I said, Paleo, is another of the wacky "I know better
than people that have studied this" things that have
become so popular lately.

Obesity and lack of exercise are the 2 most common causes
of T2. I really don't want T2.
I'm not Obese and I swim 3 times a week.
Caveman diets? No thanks.

--
Dan Espen

Seed life
 

On 05/29/2014 10:53 AM, Dan.Espen wrote:
You are stating your opinions as if they are facts.
Words have meaning, and you don't get to define them:

Type 2 diabetes is a lifelong (chronic) disease in which there are
high levels of sugar (glucose) in the blood. Type 2 diabetes is the
most common form of diabetes.

Bull shit. The above is Shoddy Science, Sketchy Politics
and Shady Special Interests.

You really need to look at the before and after
on this link:

http://www.diabetes-warrior.net/about-me-and-diabetes/


Here is a great web site, if you want to follow up
on Diabetes from a Paleo perspective:

http://www.diabetes-warrior.net/
http://www.diabetes-warrior.net/about-me-and-diabetes/
As I said, Paleo, is another of the wacky "I know better
than people that have studied this" things that have
become so popular lately.

I am drug and allopath free since September. Not
a fad. And no one is condescending. (I am on their
cooking group. Great folks.) I LIVE A NORMAL
LIFE, without the poisonous stuff (high carbs).
If you want condescending, try a vegetarian group.


Obesity and lack of exercise are the 2 most common causes
of T2.

BULL SHIT! It is caused by carbohydrate poisoning.
Obesity is a SYMPTOM (it is caused by the start of T2,
which in insulin resistance). (That and peeing a lot.)

High carb plants are not natural in nature. Humans
hybridized them for that. And, that is what gave
us T2. It is an injury, not a disease.

I really don't want T2.
I'm not Obese

Don't let the fat bigots fool you. Skinny
folks get T2 in the same numbers too. They
just don't have the symptom of getting fat
to warn them.

and I swim 3 times a week.

The best exercise is the one that you will do.
I go fishing.

Caveman diets? No thanks.

Just exactly what do you think that is? Here is your
real food pyramid (not the one where Big Ag, Big Pharma,
Big Medicine, and ESPECIALLY BIG GOVERNMENT all wax
each others palms over):

http://www.allthingsgym.com/mark-sis...-food-pyramid/

The food is great. I have more variety and better
tasting food than I have ever had in my life! Meat,
fat, (low carb) plants. THINK STEAKS, CHICKEN,
TURKEY, MOOSE, ELK ... NOW YOU ARE MAKING ME HUNGRY!

Grok (my favorite cave man) ate whatever he could get his
hands on. He just couldn't get his hands on the
current poisonous stuff (not hybridized yet), so he
had no T2. Just like I am now free of it too.

-T

Seed life
 

On Thursday, May 29, 2014 10:32:02 AM UTC-7, Todd wrote:
On 05/29/2014 05:46 AM, Pat Kiewicz wrote:

I've noticed that sometimes the plants that grow from my older squash seeds

are more likely to skip the first flush of male flowers and get right to producing female flowers.

I had a year when my zukes only produced dude flowers.

Never figured out why. Very frustrating.

You never heard of gay zuke liberation??!!

HB

Seed life
 

Todd wrote:
On 05/28/2014 05:44 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Todd wrote:

Hi Moe,

Not to ask too basic a question, but do seeds need to "breath"?
(Do they need a source of air?)


Until they start to germinate the amount of oxygen they need is
miniscule, for practical purposes zero, so they will be quite happy
in a sealed container for a long time. I imagine this is dependent
on temperature to some degree. Note that if you do want them to
germinate properly they do need air as their metabolism starts up
and they converts stored starches and oils into new plant tissue,
inhaling oxygen and exhaling CO2.

And, do you have to be careful not the "Freeze" them (water
in the seed crystallizing)?


Apparently freezing is OK. The seed vault at Svalbard is kept at
-18C (about 0 F) with seeds in sealed packets. I wouldn't be
repeatedly freezing and thawing them however, as might happen in an
outbuilding in a cold climate. For most purposes cool dry
conditions will suffice. The more important part is the dry.


D

Hi David,

Great explanation! Thank you!

I know my Hollyhock seeds need sunlight to germinate too,
so keep seeds dark too, I presume.

-T

I have never found any consistent rule about which seeds germinate best in
light or in dark.

D

Seed life
 

On 29/05/2014 10:46 PM, Pat Kiewicz wrote:
Higgs Boson said:
On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 11:42:40 PM UTC-7, Fran Farmer wrote:
On 28/05/2014 12:23 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:

On 5/26/2014 11:30 PM, SteveB wrote:



And some gardeners prefer older seeds too - pumpkin is one seed that

I've been told a few times does better if the seed is older rather than

fresh.

That sounds wildly counter-intuitive. Did your interlocutors say why?

I've noticed that sometimes the plants that grow from my older squash seeds
are more likely to skip the first flush of male flowers and get right to producing
female flowers. Most particularly this seems to be true of the C. pepo types
(zuchinni, summer squash, delicata, acorn).

That's interesting. I must pay more attention next time I plant older
seeds of the cucurbita family. One thing that does occur to me is that
in Australia what we call 'pumpkin', USians call 'winter squash' so
Higgs might still need to seek a definitive answer to his query.

I'm assuming that the gardeners who told me about older pumpkin seeds
found out what they were telling me based on experience just as you did
with your summer squash. One of these gardeners also told me that dog
poo was a superb fertiliser under lemon trees. Can't say I've ever been
tempted to try that one but since he was a gardener who worked for many
years at Government House then he should have had some knowledge and skills.

Seed life
 

Fran Farmer wrote:
One of these gardeners also told me
that dog poo was a superb fertiliser under lemon trees. Can't say I've
ever
been tempted to try that one but since he was a gardener who worked
for many years at Government House then he should have had some
knowledge and skills.

Where did all these dogs come from at Government House? The explanation is
that there are few conveniences in the rather large grounds of Government
House.

Its due to gardeners' piddle.

D

Seed life
 

On 30/05/2014 3:53 AM, Dan.Espen wrote:
Todd writes:

On 05/28/2014 12:27 PM, Dan.Espen wrote:
I can't see how anyone can be "Paleo/diabetic".
The first part is the weird idea that eating like a caveman is good for
you. The second part is a disease.

Hi Dan,

Paleo keeps you from getting T2 Diabetes. It also helps
you heal from it.

Also, T2 Diabetes is not a "disease". It is an "injury"
(carbohydrate poisoning) and it is self inflicted.
I speak from experience.

You are stating your opinions as if they are facts.

Something odd is going on in the US when it comes to 'carbs'. It's like
'carbs' have become the new anti-Çhrist. 'Low carbing' is highly
fashionable.

After having tried to get sense out of someone who I had thought was
bright, curious and could do research, I decided that I'd no longer
bother trying to make any sense of what people believe when it comes to
what they eat and the reasons for why they eat what they do.

Seed life
 

On 30/05/2014 2:00 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Fran Farmer wrote:
One of these gardeners also told me
that dog poo was a superb fertiliser under lemon trees. Can't say
I've ever
been tempted to try that one but since he was a gardener who worked
for many years at Government House then he should have had some
knowledge and skills.

Where did all these dogs come from at Government House?

I wrote that he was a gardener at Government House. I don't know if he
ever put dog poop under the trees at Government House. He had years of
experience as a gardener both as a wage earner and as a non paid home
gardener. His home garden was wonderful. I'd always assumed that it
was his home trees that had the dog poop under them but must admit that
I didn't specifically ask at the time and he's now dead.

He also advocated the use of banana peel and the water left over in the
pot that vegetables had been cooked in as great for plants. I've
recently taken up this latter tip and it's brought back to (relatively)
lush life a poor suffering camellia and another small flowering plant at
the base of the stairs off my front deck.

Regardless of that, the lemon trees at Government House are very good
ones. Quite amazing really when you consider the climate in which they
grow.

The explanation
is that there are few conveniences in the rather large grounds of
Government House.

Not so - there are excellent dunnies in the grounds at GH.

Its due to gardeners' piddle.

Possibly that is why the lemons at GH are so good.

Seed life
 

In article
Fran Farmer writes:

Something odd is going on in the US when it comes to 'carbs'. It's like
'carbs' have become the new anti-Çhrist. 'Low carbing' is highly
fashionable.

After having tried to get sense out of someone who I had thought was
bright, curious and could do research, I decided that I'd no longer
bother trying to make any sense of what people believe when it comes to
what they eat and the reasons for why they eat what they do.

I can't tell if it is just the US, as my exposure is largely online.

Diet has become worse than religion for not being able to tell what
meaning someone has attached to a word. I used to hang out in a
cooking group and was very confused by several posters until I
realized when they said "carbs" they meant "sugar," and when they
said "protein" they meant "meat."

Except when they didn't.

It wasn't worth the effort after a while.

--
|Drew Lawson | Mrs. Tweedy! |
| | The chickens are revolting! |

Seed life
 

Fran Farmer wrote:
....
Something odd is going on in the US when it comes to 'carbs'. It's like
'carbs' have become the new anti-Çhrist. 'Low carbing' is highly
fashionable.

heh, putting it mildly... the USoA has had
agricultural fiddling with nutrition recommendations
for quite some time, so when actual science is done
it is often skewed by government funding and desires
of legislators to push their pet crops through things
like the school lunch program.

Atkins was popular many years ago. it was yet
another fad diet that has been transformed into
the Paleo diet over the past few years. not too
long ago there was also the cinnamon pill diabetic
craze, the fish oil craze, the carbo diet craze,
the low fat craze, the butter and lard craze.

i think the major improvement in basic nutrition
is best summed up as "eat real food". i.e. stay
away from overly processed foods or things that
don't look like anything real, most of what is in
the grocery store these days is packaged technofoods
that are largely made up of variations on corn, soy,
sugars and various flavorings and preservatives.

the recommendation to eat a lot of protein is
largely wrong for humans, we're omnivores, after
so many grams of protein in a diet the rest is
not needed and is very wasteful if you consider
what it takes to raise and process (aside from
plant sources). higher fiber foods are great in
general too as they provide bulk, making a person
feel actually satisfied from a meal, various
probiotic foods are good.

i stay away from too much salt, and get plenty
of exercise, that seems to be the most consistent
advice you can get from various cultural studies.


After having tried to get sense out of someone who I had thought was
bright, curious and could do research, I decided that I'd no longer
bother trying to make any sense of what people believe when it comes to
what they eat and the reasons for why they eat what they do.

i try to eat mainly what i grow and what i
cook as i pretty much like almost anything. for
the largest meal of the day (lunch) i eat enough
to get me through to dinner and a day of gardening.
i can eat about what i want now with me being
more active. for later on, i eat a large bowl of
shredded cabbage and carrots with various things
added and a sweet and sour dressing of some type.
keeps me full and mostly away from the night time
snacks.


songbird

Seed life
 

Fran Farmer writes:

On 30/05/2014 3:53 AM, Dan.Espen wrote:
Todd writes:

On 05/28/2014 12:27 PM, Dan.Espen wrote:
I can't see how anyone can be "Paleo/diabetic".
The first part is the weird idea that eating like a caveman is good for
you. The second part is a disease.

Hi Dan,

Paleo keeps you from getting T2 Diabetes. It also helps
you heal from it.

Also, T2 Diabetes is not a "disease". It is an "injury"
(carbohydrate poisoning) and it is self inflicted.
I speak from experience.

You are stating your opinions as if they are facts.

Something odd is going on in the US when it comes to 'carbs'. It's
like 'carbs' have become the new anti-Çhrist. 'Low carbing' is highly
fashionable.

Hey, if only it was confined to carbs.

After having tried to get sense out of someone who I had thought was
bright, curious and could do research, I decided that I'd no longer
bother trying to make any sense of what people believe when it comes
to what they eat and the reasons for why they eat what they do.

Just about any nutty thing people can come up with gets a free pass.
The magic in pyramids, the healing power of magnets, anti-vaccine,
every bizarre belief gets a load of adherents.

--
Dan Espen

Seed life
 

Todd wrote:
On 05/29/2014 10:54 PM, Fran Farmer wrote:
On 30/05/2014 3:53 AM, Dan.Espen wrote:
Todd writes:

On 05/28/2014 12:27 PM, Dan.Espen wrote:
I can't see how anyone can be "Paleo/diabetic".
The first part is the weird idea that eating like a caveman is
good for you. The second part is a disease.

Hi Dan,

Paleo keeps you from getting T2 Diabetes. It also helps
you heal from it.

Also, T2 Diabetes is not a "disease". It is an "injury"
(carbohydrate poisoning) and it is self inflicted.
I speak from experience.

You are stating your opinions as if they are facts.

Something odd is going on in the US when it comes to 'carbs'. It's
like 'carbs' have become the new anti-Çhrist. 'Low carbing' is
highly fashionable.

After having tried to get sense out of someone who I had thought was
bright, curious and could do research, I decided that I'd no longer
bother trying to make any sense of what people believe when it comes
to what they eat and the reasons for why they eat what they do.

Hi Fran,

One in six of us are getting T2 Diabetes. The Diabetes Association
is predicting it will go down to one and three (though I think they
may have dubious motives). It is directly linked to the over
consumption of carbs. It doesn't fall out of the sky and hit you
in the head.

Carbs are fine, when consumed in the quantities that were available
in our ancestral diet (99% of human history), which was extremely
varied. We now have gotten too cleaver for ourselves and have
hybridized plants to produce artificial amounts of carbohydrates
that do not occur naturally in nature. I think this all came about
when we discovered beer and hybridized grains for better beer.
So the poison in truly in the dosage.

There is a part of your brain called the satiation switch
that makes us happy when we eat carbs. Only problem is
that it is designed for our ancestral diet, not the
artificially hybridized diet of today. Carbs become very,
very addictive. They are cheap to produce, which makes
the special interests push the damned things.

Oh do you know the scoundrels a the USDA think I should
be eating 400 grams of carbs a day! (I am between 30 and 60,
and health folks should probably keep it under 100.)
Talk about corruption and palm waxing! There is so much
money in cheap food like substances (carbs).

And this goes way beyond a fad. It is a major health problem.
I know one man it killed. He refused to stop eating carbs.
I know another man who told me how to abuse drugs (insulin)
so he could eat pie. He now has lost both legs, lost his
kidneys (he is on the transplant list), had a major heart
attack. It is going to kill him and a lot of people
love and depend on him. And he still won't dump the carbs.
This is a horrible addiction.

I think part of the "Fad" part you are pointing out is that folks
have noticed that you can not get fat on fat (use or lose). To
get fat required insulin (the fat hormone) and carbs. So fat
bigotry has some to play with it. The weight loss industry
is a bunch of so and so's. And society's attitude towards
fat people is scurrilous.

Now if you are in the five out of six, do worry about it. If
you start to gain weight and/or pee a lot, then worry.
(Remember that skinny people get T2 as well.) Also, if
you are suddenly starting to lose weight for no reason and
your idiot friends start to tell you how good you look
(like mine did). WORRY BIG TIME!

The good news is that you can recover from carbohydrate poisoning
(T2 Diabetes). And you can live a completely normal life, as I
and others do, without drugs or allopaths.

And, when you get off the high carbs, your satiation switch
will reset and you will suddenly start to taste subtleties
you never even know were there. My eyes role when I eat my
home grown tomatoes.

Paleo is what pulled me off the drugs. And it is simple.
Meat, fat, low carb plants. What you eat in order of precedence:
1) what you grow or catch yourself, 2) local grown, 3) organic
farmed, 4) as natural as you can get it. Don't obsess on it.
And, oh man I eat so well!

Plus, there is more to Paleo than food and exercise. There
is the walking barefoot, getting up and down with the sun,
spending time with loved ones, including meals together.

We all know that Grok (my favorite cave man) use to have to
chase his food. What we all miss is that he chased it with
his family, his friends, his tribe. We have so totally
lost this in our culture.

If anyone reading this catches T2, I keep a running list
of scientific research on tradition medicine (herbs) to
help heal the injury. If you can find me (ping Todd in the
subject line), I will send it to you.

By the way, speaking of loved ones, T2 is a family/tribe
issue. If anyone in your family/tribe/loved ones has
T2, YOUR EAT WHAT THEY EAT. (Well, at least in front of
them.) My wife made the decision to be on the exact diet
I was on when I got inducted into the pin cushion club.
She has been a total blessing (she is a trophy wife in
the truest meaning.)

I am teaching myself to cook. We eat together. Now to
get the grow it yourself down. (Me and my black thumb.)

The poison in truly in the dosage.

-T

No you are oversimplifying too much. The causes of type 2 diabetes are both
genetic and environmental. Having a parent who had it increases your chance
of getting it. The chance of getting it is also related to

- age
- overweight (particularly)
- lack of excercise.

Consumption of excessive carbohydrates is related to being overweight but is
by no means the whole story. You can have all the risk factors above on a
low carb diet if your ancestors had T2D, you are 60YO, gorge on fat and sit
on your arse all day.

Do not be confused because those who get T2D are told to manage their carb
intake as part of the treatment. This is related to controlling blood sugar
once insulin production becomes deficient which is not the same thing as
preventing T2D by not eating carbs.

If you want to be healthy and live to a ripe old age:

- have good ancestors (!)
- don't smoke
- maintain good weight
- excercise regularly
- eat a BALANCED diet
- don't worry (including about your carbs unless your doctor says so)

David

Seed life
 

Todd wrote:
....
Hi Songbird,

1+ Stay away from processed foods.

I don't think you realize it, but you described yourself
as a Paleo. I doubt you will ever get Diabetes.

no, i described myself as someone who knows
the difference between processed and unprocessed
foods. Michael Pollan and the slow food movement
or the CSA movement, or the many other movements
which aim to get back to eating real food and
not processed forms of sugar, corn or soybeans.

Paleo is just yet another way to package the
same ideas that have been there before and it
sells new books, new cookbooks, website content
and advertizing, etc.


....
If you read the whole thing, you will find this is not a
fad. It is very well though out. It saved me from Diabetes.
And, the quality of my life has risen appreciably.

i'm glad it has helped. not on-line at the
moment so i'll try to check the website cited
when i get back in the morning.

what i've read so far about diet and diabetes
is pretty much in line with what David has
written in reply to you so i won't repeat it.
there are some excellent books on the topic which
reiterate much of the Paleo approach, but it's
not called that. from the Dr. Gotts "no sugar,
no flour..." diet to many others... they've
all been good starting points to improving one's
health, but all along the basics have still
remained the same: eat moderately, get plenty
of exercise, avoid extra salt, avoid extra sugars,
etc. these have been known since i was a child.
just that most people do not follow such basics.
the whys of that are manyfold.


songbird

denial again
 

You are off on your Denialist religion again, with all the same logical
fallacies, conspiracies, emotional baggage and time wasting as the one
where you denied climate change. I am going to treat it the same way, it
ends now as far as I am concerned and I suggest the same to everybody else.

Let us get back to gardening.

David

denial again
 

Todd wrote:
On 05/30/2014 09:04 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:

You are off on your Denialist religion again, with all the same
logical fallacies, conspiracies, emotional baggage and time wasting
as the one where you denied climate change. I am going to treat it
the same way, it ends now as far as I am concerned and I suggest the
same to everybody else.

Hi David,

Do you always make fun of others when you don't agree or
don't understand what they are saying? No one can have a
viewpoint, other than yours?

-T

I am refusing to waste time on a topic that has zero value to anybody.
Nothing can be exchanged, nothing learned, nothing improved, nothing
changed, hardly fun. You need An Enemy to rail against: it isn't me.

I can't help with your pinecones never grew them.

D

Seed life
 

On 31/05/2014 12:04 AM, songbird wrote:
Fran Farmer wrote:
...
Something odd is going on in the US when it comes to 'carbs'. It's like
'carbs' have become the new anti-Çhrist. 'Low carbing' is highly
fashionable.

heh, putting it mildly... the USoA has had
agricultural fiddling with nutrition recommendations
for quite some time, so when actual science is done
it is often skewed by government funding and desires
of legislators to push their pet crops through things
like the school lunch program.

Atkins was popular many years ago. it was yet
another fad diet that has been transformed into
the Paleo diet over the past few years. not too
long ago there was also the cinnamon pill diabetic
craze, the fish oil craze, the carbo diet craze,
the low fat craze, the butter and lard craze.

i think the major improvement in basic nutrition
is best summed up as "eat real food". i.e. stay
away from overly processed foods or things that
don't look like anything real, most of what is in
the grocery store these days is packaged technofoods
that are largely made up of variations on corn, soy,
sugars and various flavorings and preservatives.

The list of ingredients for some 'foods' is amazing. I spend a lot of
time reading labels and I'm often amazed at the way that producers faff
so much with some products

the recommendation to eat a lot of protein is
largely wrong for humans, we're omnivores, after
so many grams of protein in a diet the rest is
not needed and is very wasteful if you consider
what it takes to raise and process (aside from
plant sources).

:-)) Yup. As a beef producer, I've read a lot on the inefficiencies in
the production of meat protein vs vegetable protein. I also learned the
hard way about the involvement of animal products in colon cancer.

higher fiber foods are great in
general too as they provide bulk, making a person
feel actually satisfied from a meal, various
probiotic foods are good.

i stay away from too much salt, and get plenty
of exercise, that seems to be the most consistent
advice you can get from various cultural studies.

Yep. Avoid fat, sugar and salt, get lots of exercise and hydrate well
say all of my health professionals. Shame I didn't pay more attention
before I got 3 major cancers (I don't count the various non terminal
skin cancers)

After having tried to get sense out of someone who I had thought was
bright, curious and could do research, I decided that I'd no longer
bother trying to make any sense of what people believe when it comes to
what they eat and the reasons for why they eat what they do.

i try to eat mainly what i grow and what i
cook as i pretty much like almost anything. for
the largest meal of the day (lunch) i eat enough
to get me through to dinner and a day of gardening.
i can eat about what i want now with me being
more active. for later on, i eat a large bowl of
shredded cabbage and carrots with various things
added and a sweet and sour dressing of some type.
keeps me full and mostly away from the night time
snacks.

I find that I like a full tummy at night. Dunno why but that's the way
I am.

Seed life
 

On 30/05/2014 11:58 PM, Drew Lawson wrote:
In article
Fran Farmer writes:

Something odd is going on in the US when it comes to 'carbs'. It's like
'carbs' have become the new anti-Çhrist. 'Low carbing' is highly
fashionable.

After having tried to get sense out of someone who I had thought was
bright, curious and could do research, I decided that I'd no longer
bother trying to make any sense of what people believe when it comes to
what they eat and the reasons for why they eat what they do.

I can't tell if it is just the US, as my exposure is largely online.

Diet has become worse than religion for not being able to tell what
meaning someone has attached to a word. I used to hang out in a
cooking group and was very confused by several posters until I
realized when they said "carbs" they meant "sugar," and when they
said "protein" they meant "meat."

:-)) That's the problem that I'd noticed too.

Except when they didn't.

It wasn't worth the effort after a while.

:-))) Been there and got the T-shirt.

Not worth it.

Seed life
 

On 5/29/2014 8:53 PM, Fran Farmer wrote:
On 29/05/2014 10:46 PM, Pat Kiewicz wrote:
Higgs Boson said:
On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 11:42:40 PM UTC-7, Fran Farmer wrote:
On 28/05/2014 12:23 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:

On 5/26/2014 11:30 PM, SteveB wrote:



And some gardeners prefer older seeds too - pumpkin is one seed that

I've been told a few times does better if the seed is older rather than

fresh.

That sounds wildly counter-intuitive. Did your interlocutors say why?

I've noticed that sometimes the plants that grow from my older squash
seeds
are more likely to skip the first flush of male flowers and get right
to producing
female flowers. Most particularly this seems to be true of the C. pepo
types
(zuchinni, summer squash, delicata, acorn).

That's interesting. I must pay more attention next time I plant older
seeds of the cucurbita family. One thing that does occur to me is that
in Australia what we call 'pumpkin', USians call 'winter squash' so
Higgs might still need to seek a definitive answer to his query.

I'm assuming that the gardeners who told me about older pumpkin seeds
found out what they were telling me based on experience just as you did
with your summer squash. One of these gardeners also told me that dog
poo was a superb fertiliser under lemon trees. Can't say I've ever been
tempted to try that one but since he was a gardener who worked for many
years at Government House then he should have had some knowledge and
skills.

Same, same Fran, squash and pumpkins are all basically squash.
Nomenclature is just a way to get your kids to eat pumpkin. G

We have numerous acorn squash seed that didn't compost well so one of
the beds has lots of squash growing. I baked a store bought acorn squash
and tossed the seeds in the composter. The seeds germinated in the
garden bed and are producing what looks like a Hubbard squash that has a
light green background and dark green stripes. Hybridization does that
to plants. Doesn't matter to us as squash is squash and might be a
pumpkin but it's all edible. Amazes the great grand kids when they see
something different and teaches them a small lesson about hybridization,
I hope.

Seed life
 

Fran Farmer wrote:
songbird wrote:
....
i think the major improvement in basic nutrition
is best summed up as "eat real food". i.e. stay
away from overly processed foods or things that
don't look like anything real, most of what is in
the grocery store these days is packaged technofoods
that are largely made up of variations on corn, soy,
sugars and various flavorings and preservatives.

The list of ingredients for some 'foods' is amazing. I spend a lot of
time reading labels and I'm often amazed at the way that producers faff
so much with some products

a lot of it comes down to a few needs of a packaged
food and of course money. keep it from rotting for a
long time and keep it palatable while sitting on a shelf
for months at a time. sugars, salts, additives to keep
fats stable, keep moisture in the product and not out
condensing on the inside of the packaging. and then
the money factor where the added ingredients are often
cheaper.


the recommendation to eat a lot of protein is
largely wrong for humans, we're omnivores, after
so many grams of protein in a diet the rest is
not needed and is very wasteful if you consider
what it takes to raise and process (aside from
plant sources).

:-)) Yup. As a beef producer, I've read a lot on the inefficiencies in
the production of meat protein vs vegetable protein. I also learned the
hard way about the involvement of animal products in colon cancer.

i'm glad you made it through the treatments.


higher fiber foods are great in
general too as they provide bulk, making a person
feel actually satisfied from a meal, various
probiotic foods are good.

i stay away from too much salt, and get plenty
of exercise, that seems to be the most consistent
advice you can get from various cultural studies.

Yep. Avoid fat, sugar and salt, get lots of exercise and hydrate well
say all of my health professionals. Shame I didn't pay more attention
before I got 3 major cancers (I don't count the various non terminal
skin cancers)

wow!


After having tried to get sense out of someone who I had thought was
bright, curious and could do research, I decided that I'd no longer
bother trying to make any sense of what people believe when it comes to
what they eat and the reasons for why they eat what they do.

i try to eat mainly what i grow and what i
cook as i pretty much like almost anything. for
the largest meal of the day (lunch) i eat enough
to get me through to dinner and a day of gardening.
i can eat about what i want now with me being
more active. for later on, i eat a large bowl of
shredded cabbage and carrots with various things
added and a sweet and sour dressing of some type.
keeps me full and mostly away from the night time
snacks.

I find that I like a full tummy at night. Dunno why but that's the way
I am.

the large salad keeps me feeling full all night.
i joke about how much exercise i get just eating it.
normally, with a very dense food with a lot of
calories, i can eat way too fast (two minutes or
less) and that makes it easy to overdo it. with the
large bowl of salad i can't eat it that fast and
the calories are much less.


songbird

Seed life
 

George Shirley wrote:
Fran wrote:
....
I'm assuming that the gardeners who told me about older pumpkin seeds
found out what they were telling me based on experience just as you did
with your summer squash. One of these gardeners also told me that dog
poo was a superb fertiliser under lemon trees. Can't say I've ever been
tempted to try that one but since he was a gardener who worked for many
years at Government House then he should have had some knowledge and
skills.

Same, same Fran, squash and pumpkins are all basically squash.
Nomenclature is just a way to get your kids to eat pumpkin. G

We have numerous acorn squash seed that didn't compost well so one of
the beds has lots of squash growing. I baked a store bought acorn squash
and tossed the seeds in the composter. The seeds germinated in the
garden bed and are producing what looks like a Hubbard squash that has a
light green background and dark green stripes. Hybridization does that
to plants. Doesn't matter to us as squash is squash and might be a
pumpkin but it's all edible. Amazes the great grand kids when they see
something different and teaches them a small lesson about hybridization,
I hope.

i've always seen recommendations to include a
variety of types in a patch to encourage good
fruit setting/filling. my own experience here
bears that out.

as we don't have a formal compost pile to
put scraps in i put them in the worm bins, but
after several years of having squash and melon
seeds pushing up through my other seedlings i
decided the past few years to separate as much
out as i can before putting things in the worm
bins and to put the seeds into only one of the
worm bins (that one doesn't go out into the
gardens each spring).

as most squash seeds are great when roasted
i've taken to squeezing them out of the pulp
(do not add any water) and drying them on a tray
before rubbing the last bits of stuff off them.
i have a good supply now for planting. if we
had more empty fields about i'd be scattering
them in those to see if i can get a wild
population established. i'm hoping i can get
out in the back area (on the other side of the
large drainage ditch) and scatter a bunch of
squash and melon seeds back there. likely
most of them will be animal food, but that's
ok...


songbird

Seed life
 

On Saturday, May 31, 2014 6:50:46 AM UTC-7, songbird wrote:
Fran Farmer wrote:

songbird wrote:

...

i think the major improvement in basic nutrition

is best summed up as "eat real food". i.e. stay

away from overly processed foods or things that

don't look like anything real, most of what is in

the grocery store these days is packaged technofoods

that are largely made up of variations on corn, soy,

sugars and various flavorings and preservatives.



The list of ingredients for some 'foods' is amazing. I spend a lot of

time reading labels and I'm often amazed at the way that producers faff

so much with some products



a lot of it comes down to a few needs of a packaged

food and of course money. keep it from rotting for a

long time and keep it palatable while sitting on a shelf

for months at a time. sugars, salts, additives to keep

fats stable, keep moisture in the product and not out

condensing on the inside of the packaging. and then

the money factor where the added ingredients are often

cheaper.





the recommendation to eat a lot of protein is

largely wrong for humans, we're omnivores, after

so many grams of protein in a diet the rest is

not needed and is very wasteful if you consider

what it takes to raise and process (aside from

plant sources).



:-)) Yup. As a beef producer, I've read a lot on the inefficiencies in

the production of meat protein vs vegetable protein. I also learned the

hard way about the involvement of animal products in colon cancer.



i'm glad you made it through the treatments.





higher fiber foods are great in

general too as they provide bulk, making a person

feel actually satisfied from a meal, various

probiotic foods are good.



i stay away from too much salt, and get plenty

of exercise, that seems to be the most consistent

advice you can get from various cultural studies.



Yep. Avoid fat, sugar and salt, get lots of exercise and hydrate well

say all of my health professionals. Shame I didn't pay more attention

before I got 3 major cancers (I don't count the various non terminal

skin cancers)



wow!





After having tried to get sense out of someone who I had thought was

bright, curious and could do research, I decided that I'd no longer

bother trying to make any sense of what people believe when it comes to

what they eat and the reasons for why they eat what they do.



i try to eat mainly what i grow and what i

cook as i pretty much like almost anything. for

the largest meal of the day (lunch) i eat enough

to get me through to dinner and a day of gardening.

i can eat about what i want now with me being

more active. for later on, i eat a large bowl of

shredded cabbage and carrots with various things

added and a sweet and sour dressing of some type.

keeps me full and mostly away from the night time

snacks.



I find that I like a full tummy at night. Dunno why but that's the way

I am.

Fran, was that you who wrote about "full tummmy at night"?

Now I'm nobody to preach, but I have read studies on weight as follow: Subjects in group A ate their last meal around 3 PM. Subjects in Group B ate their last meal at 6 pm. Subjects in Group C ate their last meal at 9 PM. ISTR the 3:00 group lost the most weight, followed by the 6, with 9 coming in last. Supposedly the slower metabolism at night doesn't work as hard.

the large salad keeps me feeling full all night.

i joke about how much exercise i get just eating it.

normally, with a very dense food with a lot of

calories, i can eat way too fast (two minutes or

less) and that makes it easy to overdo it. with the

large bowl of salad i can't eat it that fast and

the calories are much less.

HAH! So true! I'm a carb freak and have to fight to make myself prepare dark green vegs, though I love my broccoli when I finally make it. Unlike one of our former Presidents:

"I do not like broccoli. And I haven't liked it since I was a little kid and my mother made me eat it. And I'm President of the United States and I'm not going to eat any more broccoli.

George H. W. Bush"

As to longer consumption times g for breakfast, I usually eat Scotch oats -- the granular ones -- but sometimes I'll take the time to build a chopped salad of whatever's around, sprinkled with Israeli feta cheese and lemon juice from my tree. (Mouth watering; must hastily log off...)

HB

denial again
 

"David Hare-Scott" writes:

You are off on your Denialist religion again, with all the same
logical fallacies, conspiracies, emotional baggage and time wasting
as the one where you denied climate change. I am going to treat it
the same way, it ends now as far as I am concerned and I suggest the
same to everybody else.

Yep, I tried too.

I found this particularly outrageous:

No. I offend the special interests that make tons of
money off of food like substances and treating
the effect of what they cause.

Now our own tried and proven plant expert
and selfless giver of information
is a corporate lackey.
Who would have guessed?

Let us get back to gardening.

Yep, immune to reason.

--
Dan Espen

Seed life
 

On Saturday, May 31, 2014 11:55:36 AM UTC-7, Todd wrote:
On 05/31/2014 01:15 AM, Fran Farmer wrote:

The list of ingredients for some 'foods' is amazing. I spend a lot of

time reading labels and I'm often amazed at the way that producers faff

so much with some products. You got that right! Go into Vons or Ralphs and look at that alluring display of pies & cakes -- then look at the book-length labels and turn away, shuddering.

Anybody know which food sage said he doesn't eat anything with more than 5 ingredients?


[...]

Yup. As a beef producer, I've read a lot on the inefficiencies

in the production of meat protein vs vegetable protein. I also

learned the hard way about the involvement of animal products

in colon cancer.

First off, "My hero!". If animal products are involved,

I would "posit" that it is what is in them, not the animal

itself. The Inuits eat very little of anything else and

no colon cancel.



But look at the type of meat the Inuits eat. It is all wild.

It is not "cured" or processed. It is not full of hormones,

antibiotics, and other disgusting chemical. It is fed

a natural diet.


[...]

And the Inuit -- before the white man messed up them and their environment -- were the healthiest SOBs around. Their environment was sterile -- too cold for germs -- and they ate, as you point out, they lived on a raw meat died of fresh-killed local animals.

One thing they did know -- among their millennial wisdoms - was don't eat the Polar Bear's liver -- it is toxic.* Too much Vitamin A, is one theory. The sad fate suffered by brave white explorers stranded in the Arctic was due to eating Polar bear liver.

*The Polar bear is my totem animal -- I admire the hell out of them and bewail the effects of global warming on their habitat The ice covering the sea is shrinking.

They and the seals they prey on have played this deadly game for ? millennia? The seals must surface to breathe periodically Either they haul out on an ice floe where the bear hides to catch them, or they breathe through their holes, where the bear is waiting. He is one smart animal!

HB

Seed life
 

Higgs Boson wrote:
Todd wrote:
Fran Farmer wrote:

The list of ingredients for some 'foods' is amazing. I spend a lot of
time reading labels and I'm often amazed at the way that producers faff
so much with some products. You got that right! Go into Vons or Ralphs
and look at that alluring display of pies & cakes -- then look at the book-length
labels and turn away, shuddering.

If you're eating foods that come in a package printed with a list of
ingredients then you're eating poison.

Anybody know which food sage said he doesn't eat anything with more than 5 ingredients?

Sage is one herb I don't care for. Someone who doesn't use herbs and
spices... your typical TIADer (Taste In Ass Disease'er) who thinks
drive thru mystery meat burgers are the be all to end all. When I
cook a stew, soup, meat loaf, etc. it may contain 30+ ingredients. I
never eat any ground meat that I didn't grind myself. Why do the
number of ingredients matter?!?!? My spice, herb, and dehy locker
must contain over 300 ingredients... at least a dozen dried mushrooms,
and as many dried peppers. If you consume previously ground pepper
rather than grinding your own peppercorns then you are consuming roach
parts and rodent turds. If you eat previously ground mystery meat you
are eating diseased food, it contains cancers that are not picked out.
Cut up chicken parts comes from diseased chickens, the diseased parts
go to make pet food. 99.9% of the food info you hear about on TV or
read is 100% myth and lies dreamed up by pinheads. There is no such
thing as organic foods, not on this planet.... organic food is a scam
to rip off those with more dollars than brain cells.

denial again
 

Todd writes:

On 05/31/2014 09:01 AM, Dan.Espen wrote:
I found this particularly outrageous:

No. I offend the special interests that make tons of
money off of food like substances and treating
the effect of what they cause.

I kind of liked that one myself. If you ever catch
diabetes, you will be as ****ed as me. Especially
if you ask your GP how to get off the drugs
and he tells you it is very rare and you have to
exercise your ass off.

You know what? I'll blame myself (and chance).
The innocent victim role just doesn't appeal to me.

Personally, I love a good cookie, and if I eat it,
it's my fault, not some special interest.

--
Dan Espen

Seed life
 

On Saturday, May 31, 2014 1:36:51 PM UTC-7, Brooklyn1 wrote:
Higgs Boson wrote:

Todd wrote:

Fran Farmer wrote:



The list of ingredients for some 'foods' is amazing. I spend a lot of

time reading labels and I'm often amazed at the way that producers faff

so much with some products. You got that right! Go into Vons or Ralphs

and look at that alluring display of pies & cakes -- then look at the book-length

labels and turn away, shuddering.



If you're eating foods that come in a package printed with a list of

ingredients then you're eating poison.



Anybody know which food sage said he doesn't eat anything with more than 5 ingredients?



Sage is one herb I don't care for. Someone who doesn't use herbs and

spices... your typical TIADer (Taste In Ass Disease'er) who thinks

drive thru mystery meat burgers are the be all to end all. When I

cook a stew, soup, meat loaf, etc. it may contain 30+ ingredients. I

never eat any ground meat that I didn't grind myself. Why do the

number of ingredients matter?!?!? My spice, herb, and dehy locker

must contain over 300 ingredients... at least a dozen dried mushrooms,

and as many dried peppers. If you consume previously ground pepper

rather than grinding your own peppercorns then you are consuming roach

parts and rodent turds. If you eat previously ground mystery meat you

are eating diseased food, it contains cancers that are not picked out.

Cut up chicken parts comes from diseased chickens, the diseased parts

go to make pet food. 99.9% of the food info you hear about on TV or

read is 100% myth and lies dreamed up by pinheads. There is no such

thing as organic foods, not on this planet.... organic food is a scam

to rip off those with more dollars than brain cells.

I was using the word "sage" to denote a wise person. So a food "sage" would be somebody who knows a lot about food.

HB