My wife is the daughter of a depression baby, and has a sometimes bad
habit of keeping things she should throw away.

We planted some Bush contender string beans last year, nice germination
time, and great growers and producers right into frost.

We had seeds left over, which she kept in a plastic ziploc in the garden
shed, temps sometimes very hot, and then through a freezing winter.

This year, it seems they to be taking a long time to germinate. Is
there a good estimate of how long seeds are good for? I would say to
buy just enough for what you need each year, but perhaps you find a
strain that you really like, and don't know if they will carry that at
the seed store next year.

And tips on storage from season to season would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Steve

SteveB wrote:

My wife is the daughter of a depression baby, and has a sometimes bad
habit of keeping things she should throw away.

We planted some Bush contender string beans last year, nice germination
time, and great growers and producers right into frost.

We had seeds left over, which she kept in a plastic ziploc in the garden
shed, temps sometimes very hot, and then through a freezing winter.

This year, it seems they to be taking a long time to germinate. Is
there a good estimate of how long seeds are good for? I would say to
buy just enough for what you need each year, but perhaps you find a
strain that you really like, and don't know if they will carry that at
the seed store next year.

And tips on storage from season to season would be appreciated.

407 days, 15 hours, and 12 seconds... +/- 2 seconds.

On 5/26/2014 11:30 PM, SteveB wrote:
My wife is the daughter of a depression baby, and has a sometimes bad
habit of keeping things she should throw away.

We planted some Bush contender string beans last year, nice germination
time, and great growers and producers right into frost.

We had seeds left over, which she kept in a plastic ziploc in the garden
shed, temps sometimes very hot, and then through a freezing winter.

This year, it seems they to be taking a long time to germinate. Is
there a good estimate of how long seeds are good for? I would say to
buy just enough for what you need each year, but perhaps you find a
strain that you really like, and don't know if they will carry that at
the seed store next year.

And tips on storage from season to season would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Steve
I have seeds in the refrigerator that have been there ten years or more.
Germination rate drops even with chilling, sometimes they work,
sometimes they don't. My wife has a habit of leaving the container of
seeds on the kitchen table for a few days if I don't watch her. Your
Contenders may or may not, in my opinion NOT, germinate.

I've been growing the same strain of crowder peas for twenty years, each
year I let a few pods stay on the vine to ripen fully, shuck them and
put them into a paper envelope and keep them until the following year.
These are heirloom seeds so are okay, some of the specialty seeds may
revert to one or more of the original parents.

George

On Monday, May 26, 2014 9:30:48 PM UTC-7, SteveB wrote:
My wife is the daughter of a depression baby, and has a sometimes bad

habit of keeping things she should throw away.



We planted some Bush contender string beans last year, nice germination

time, and great growers and producers right into frost.



We had seeds left over, which she kept in a plastic ziploc in the garden

shed, temps sometimes very hot, and then through a freezing winter.



This year, it seems they to be taking a long time to germinate. Is

there a good estimate of how long seeds are good for? I would say to

buy just enough for what you need each year, but perhaps you find a

strain that you really like, and don't know if they will carry that at

the seed store next year.



And tips on storage from season to season would be appreciated.

NOT in garden shed, subject to temperature swings!!!

In refrigerator or freezer. Double plastic bags VERY tightly sealed to protect against moisture. Point opening of outside bag to bottom of inside bag.

How long since beans planted, compared with last year germination time? Weather conditions comparable? Warmth of ground matters.

How long is it taking for seeds of OTHER plants **with comparable germination times?**

If any seeds left above ground, try the old gimmick of spreading them between paper towels kept continually most. Should find out within +- a week if viable.

Good luck.

PS - Not to get into your domestic scene, but -- with respect - WHO decides what "should" be thrown away is a risky call...

HB

On 5/26/2014 11:30 PM, SteveB wrote:
My wife is the daughter of a depression baby, and has a sometimes bad
habit of keeping things she should throw away.

We planted some Bush contender string beans last year, nice
germination time, and great growers and producers right into frost.

We had seeds left over, which she kept in a plastic ziploc in the
garden shed, temps sometimes very hot, and then through a freezing
winter.

This year, it seems they to be taking a long time to germinate. Is
there a good estimate of how long seeds are good for? I would say to
buy just enough for what you need each year, but perhaps you find a
strain that you really like, and don't know if they will carry that at
the seed store next year.

And tips on storage from season to season would be appreciated.

Seed companies just keep their bulk seed in the warehouse/bulk storage
facilities, where it stays dry and safe from wide temperature swings.
The following year they'll perform germination testing and if
necessary add fresher seeds to bring the germination rate up to what
is stated on their package labeling. All seed companies do this, which
is why the label says, "Packed for calendar year", instead of "grown
for" or "harvested in" calendar year.

For home gardeners dealing with small amounts, the seed company I
worked for suggested storing the left-over seed packets in clean, dry
glass jars indoors to ensure the seeds were kept dry.

Properly stored - i.e. kept dry and safe from temperature swings -
most vegetable seeds will retain most of their germinating ability for
at least a couple more years.

SteveB wrote:
My wife is the daughter of a depression baby, and has a sometimes bad
habit of keeping things she should throw away.

We planted some Bush contender string beans last year, nice
germination time, and great growers and producers right into frost.

We had seeds left over, which she kept in a plastic ziploc in the
garden shed, temps sometimes very hot, and then through a freezing
winter.
This year, it seems they to be taking a long time to germinate. Is
there a good estimate of how long seeds are good for? I would say to
buy just enough for what you need each year, but perhaps you find a
strain that you really like, and don't know if they will carry that at
the seed store next year.


No. You will find several tables of viability of seeds available on the
web. The problem is that the time is very dependent on species (from a few
months to tens of year), the conditions they are stored under and how you
define viability.

On the last point seeds do not all cease to germinate at a given interval
after harvest. You might get 95% after a year, 70% after two and 30% after
three, and so on until you eventually reach zero. If you are growing
commercially or only have 5 seeds, 30% might be quite unacceptable, if you
have lots of seed and you are prepared to wait and plant out those that
germinate it might be fine.


And tips on storage from season to season would be appreciated.


Cool and dry. Not in the shed!

David

On 28/05/2014 12:23 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
On 5/26/2014 11:30 PM, SteveB wrote:
My wife is the daughter of a depression baby, and has a sometimes bad
habit of keeping things she should throw away.

We planted some Bush contender string beans last year, nice
germination time, and great growers and producers right into frost.

We had seeds left over, which she kept in a plastic ziploc in the
garden shed, temps sometimes very hot, and then through a freezing
winter.

This year, it seems they to be taking a long time to germinate. Is
there a good estimate of how long seeds are good for? I would say to
buy just enough for what you need each year, but perhaps you find a
strain that you really like, and don't know if they will carry that at
the seed store next year.

And tips on storage from season to season would be appreciated.

Seed companies just keep their bulk seed in the warehouse/bulk storage
facilities, where it stays dry and safe from wide temperature swings.
The following year they'll perform germination testing and if necessary
add fresher seeds to bring the germination rate up to what is stated on
their package labeling. All seed companies do this, which is why the
label says, "Packed for calendar year", instead of "grown for" or
"harvested in" calendar year.

For home gardeners dealing with small amounts, the seed company I worked
for suggested storing the left-over seed packets in clean, dry glass
jars indoors to ensure the seeds were kept dry.

Whew! Sounds like I'm doing the right thing. I store my seeds in my
large walk in pantry in the middle of the house where the temperature
stays not too hot and not too cool. I store my saved seeds in recycled
glass pill bottles or, for purchased seed, in the original packets in
metal boxes.

Properly stored - i.e. kept dry and safe from temperature swings - most
vegetable seeds will retain most of their germinating ability for at
least a couple more years.

And some gardeners prefer older seeds too - pumpkin is one seed that
I've been told a few times does better if the seed is older rather than
fresh.

On 5/28/2014 1:42 AM, Fran Farmer wrote:
On 28/05/2014 12:23 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
On 5/26/2014 11:30 PM, SteveB wrote:
My wife is the daughter of a depression baby, and has a sometimes bad
habit of keeping things she should throw away.

We planted some Bush contender string beans last year, nice
germination time, and great growers and producers right into frost.

We had seeds left over, which she kept in a plastic ziploc in the
garden shed, temps sometimes very hot, and then through a freezing
winter.

This year, it seems they to be taking a long time to germinate. Is
there a good estimate of how long seeds are good for? I would say to
buy just enough for what you need each year, but perhaps you find a
strain that you really like, and don't know if they will carry that at
the seed store next year.

And tips on storage from season to season would be appreciated.

Seed companies just keep their bulk seed in the warehouse/bulk storage
facilities, where it stays dry and safe from wide temperature swings.
The following year they'll perform germination testing and if necessary
add fresher seeds to bring the germination rate up to what is stated on
their package labeling. All seed companies do this, which is why the
label says, "Packed for calendar year", instead of "grown for" or
"harvested in" calendar year.

For home gardeners dealing with small amounts, the seed company I
worked
for suggested storing the left-over seed packets in clean, dry glass
jars indoors to ensure the seeds were kept dry.

Whew! Sounds like I'm doing the right thing. I store my seeds in my
large walk in pantry in the middle of the house where the temperature
stays not too hot and not too cool. I store my saved seeds in
recycled glass pill bottles or, for purchased seed, in the original
packets in metal boxes.

Properly stored - i.e. kept dry and safe from temperature swings - most
vegetable seeds will retain most of their germinating ability for at
least a couple more years.

And some gardeners prefer older seeds too - pumpkin is one seed that
I've been told a few times does better if the seed is older rather
than fresh.


The owner of the seed company I worked for told me that was true of
tomato seeds, too. Though I did the germination testing for the
company, I can't say if that was really true, because I never saved a
specific sample for long-term testing. We just tested what was held
over every year and adjusted with fresh seed as necessary.

Oh - and when a customer complained about poor germination, we'd ask
for a sample of the seed (assuming there was any left) and tested
that, too. Invariably, it met specs, meaning the poor germination was
due to environmental conditions, not that it was non-viable seed.
Ironically, the fad now is for 'organic' seeds, most usually meaning
seed that isn't treated with a fungicide to reduce the risk of
decaying before it sprouts. If you want untreated seed, fine, but if
the weather doesn't cooperate it will have a greater chance of rotting
rather than sprouting.

Todd writes:

On 05/28/2014 05:25 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
On 5/28/2014 1:42 AM, Fran Farmer wrote:
On 28/05/2014 12:23 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
On 5/26/2014 11:30 PM, SteveB wrote:
My wife is the daughter of a depression baby, and has a sometimes bad
habit of keeping things she should throw away.

We planted some Bush contender string beans last year, nice
germination time, and great growers and producers right into frost.

We had seeds left over, which she kept in a plastic ziploc in the
garden shed, temps sometimes very hot, and then through a freezing
winter.

This year, it seems they to be taking a long time to germinate. Is
there a good estimate of how long seeds are good for? I would say to
buy just enough for what you need each year, but perhaps you find a
strain that you really like, and don't know if they will carry that at
the seed store next year.

And tips on storage from season to season would be appreciated.

Seed companies just keep their bulk seed in the warehouse/bulk storage
facilities, where it stays dry and safe from wide temperature swings.
The following year they'll perform germination testing and if necessary
add fresher seeds to bring the germination rate up to what is stated on
their package labeling. All seed companies do this, which is why the
label says, "Packed for calendar year", instead of "grown for" or
"harvested in" calendar year.

For home gardeners dealing with small amounts, the seed company I
worked
for suggested storing the left-over seed packets in clean, dry glass
jars indoors to ensure the seeds were kept dry.

Whew! Sounds like I'm doing the right thing. I store my seeds in my
large walk in pantry in the middle of the house where the temperature
stays not too hot and not too cool. I store my saved seeds in
recycled glass pill bottles or, for purchased seed, in the original
packets in metal boxes.

Properly stored - i.e. kept dry and safe from temperature swings - most
vegetable seeds will retain most of their germinating ability for at
least a couple more years.

And some gardeners prefer older seeds too - pumpkin is one seed that
I've been told a few times does better if the seed is older rather
than fresh.


The owner of the seed company I worked for told me that was true of
tomato seeds, too. Though I did the germination testing for the company,
I can't say if that was really true, because I never saved a specific
sample for long-term testing. We just tested what was held over every
year and adjusted with fresh seed as necessary.

Hi Moe,

Not to ask too basic a question, but do seeds need to "breath"?
(Do they need a source of air?)

No, there is no respiration going on in a seed.

And, do you have to be careful not the "Freeze" them (water
in the seed crystallizing)?

Freezing seeds enhances their storage time.

Oh - and when a customer complained about poor germination, we'd ask for
a sample of the seed (assuming there was any left) and tested that, too.
Invariably, it met specs, meaning the poor germination was due to
environmental conditions, not that it was non-viable seed. Ironically,
the fad now is for 'organic' seeds, most usually meaning seed that isn't
treated with a fungicide to reduce the risk of decaying before it
sprouts. If you want untreated seed, fine, but if the weather doesn't
cooperate it will have a greater chance of rotting rather than sprouting.

I try to do all organic (I am Paleo/diabetic and their are a lot of

I can't see how anyone can be "Paleo/diabetic".
The first part is the weird idea that eating like a caveman is good for
you. The second part is a disease.

allergies in the family). I have always never paid much attention
to if my seeds or sprouts are "Organic". I figured that by the
time I got around to eating the things that the plants themselves
would have processed the chemicals to harmless. Your thoughts?

"Organic" means pay more for stuff.

--
Dan Espen

Todd wrote:

Hi Moe,

Not to ask too basic a question, but do seeds need to "breath"?
(Do they need a source of air?)


Until they start to germinate the amount of oxygen they need is miniscule,
for practical purposes zero, so they will be quite happy in a sealed
container for a long time. I imagine this is dependent on temperature to
some degree. Note that if you do want them to germinate properly they do
need air as their metabolism starts up and they converts stored starches and
oils into new plant tissue, inhaling oxygen and exhaling CO2.

And, do you have to be careful not the "Freeze" them (water
in the seed crystallizing)?


Apparently freezing is OK. The seed vault at Svalbard is kept at -18C
(about 0 F) with seeds in sealed packets. I wouldn't be repeatedly freezing
and thawing them however, as might happen in an outbuilding in a cold
climate. For most purposes cool dry conditions will suffice. The more
important part is the dry.


D

On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 11:42:40 PM UTC-7, Fran Farmer wrote:
On 28/05/2014 12:23 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:

On 5/26/2014 11:30 PM, SteveB wrote:



And some gardeners prefer older seeds too - pumpkin is one seed that

I've been told a few times does better if the seed is older rather than

fresh.

That sounds wildly counter-intuitive. Did your interlocutors say why?

HB

On 28/05/2014 10:25 PM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
On 5/28/2014 1:42 AM, Fran Farmer wrote:
On 28/05/2014 12:23 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
On 5/26/2014 11:30 PM, SteveB wrote:
My wife is the daughter of a depression baby, and has a sometimes bad
habit of keeping things she should throw away.

We planted some Bush contender string beans last year, nice
germination time, and great growers and producers right into frost.

We had seeds left over, which she kept in a plastic ziploc in the
garden shed, temps sometimes very hot, and then through a freezing
winter.

This year, it seems they to be taking a long time to germinate. Is
there a good estimate of how long seeds are good for? I would say to
buy just enough for what you need each year, but perhaps you find a
strain that you really like, and don't know if they will carry that at
the seed store next year.

And tips on storage from season to season would be appreciated.

Seed companies just keep their bulk seed in the warehouse/bulk storage
facilities, where it stays dry and safe from wide temperature swings.
The following year they'll perform germination testing and if necessary
add fresher seeds to bring the germination rate up to what is stated on
their package labeling. All seed companies do this, which is why the
label says, "Packed for calendar year", instead of "grown for" or
"harvested in" calendar year.

For home gardeners dealing with small amounts, the seed company I
worked
for suggested storing the left-over seed packets in clean, dry glass
jars indoors to ensure the seeds were kept dry.

Whew! Sounds like I'm doing the right thing. I store my seeds in my
large walk in pantry in the middle of the house where the temperature
stays not too hot and not too cool. I store my saved seeds in
recycled glass pill bottles or, for purchased seed, in the original
packets in metal boxes.

Properly stored - i.e. kept dry and safe from temperature swings - most
vegetable seeds will retain most of their germinating ability for at
least a couple more years.

And some gardeners prefer older seeds too - pumpkin is one seed that
I've been told a few times does better if the seed is older rather
than fresh.


The owner of the seed company I worked for told me that was true of
tomato seeds, too.

That's interesting. I hadn't ever heard that before. I'll tuck it into
my memory banks and try it next year with some older seed.

Though I did the germination testing for the company,
I can't say if that was really true, because I never saved a specific
sample for long-term testing. We just tested what was held over every
year and adjusted with fresh seed as necessary.

Oh - and when a customer complained about poor germination, we'd ask for
a sample of the seed (assuming there was any left) and tested that, too.
Invariably, it met specs, meaning the poor germination was due to
environmental conditions, not that it was non-viable seed. Ironically,
the fad now is for 'organic' seeds, most usually meaning seed that isn't
treated with a fungicide to reduce the risk of decaying before it
sprouts. If you want untreated seed, fine, but if the weather doesn't
cooperate it will have a greater chance of rotting rather than sprouting.

Thankfully, seeds in my part of Australia are more in danger of failing
to sprout due to dry conditions rather than rotting.

On 29/05/2014 2:28 PM, Higgs Boson wrote:
On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 11:42:40 PM UTC-7, Fran Farmer wrote:
On 28/05/2014 12:23 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:

On 5/26/2014 11:30 PM, SteveB wrote:



And some gardeners prefer older seeds too - pumpkin is one seed that

I've been told a few times does better if the seed is older rather than

fresh.

That sounds wildly counter-intuitive. Did your interlocutors say why?

No.

Higgs Boson said:
On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 11:42:40 PM UTC-7, Fran Farmer wrote:
On 28/05/2014 12:23 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:

On 5/26/2014 11:30 PM, SteveB wrote:



And some gardeners prefer older seeds too - pumpkin is one seed that

I've been told a few times does better if the seed is older rather than

fresh.

That sounds wildly counter-intuitive. Did your interlocutors say why?

I've noticed that sometimes the plants that grow from my older squash seeds
are more likely to skip the first flush of male flowers and get right to producing
female flowers. Most particularly this seems to be true of the C. pepo types
(zuchinni, summer squash, delicata, acorn).

--
Pat in Plymouth MI

"Yes, swooping is bad."

email valid but not regularly monitored

Todd writes:

On 05/28/2014 12:27 PM, Dan.Espen wrote:
I can't see how anyone can be "Paleo/diabetic".
The first part is the weird idea that eating like a caveman is good for
you. The second part is a disease.

Hi Dan,

Paleo keeps you from getting T2 Diabetes. It also helps
you heal from it.

Also, T2 Diabetes is not a "disease". It is an "injury"
(carbohydrate poisoning) and it is self inflicted.
I speak from experience.

You are stating your opinions as if they are facts.
Words have meaning, and you don't get to define them:

Type 2 diabetes is a lifelong (chronic) disease in which there are
high levels of sugar (glucose) in the blood. Type 2 diabetes is the
most common form of diabetes.

Here is a great web site, if you want to follow up
on Diabetes from a Paleo perspective:

http://www.diabetes-warrior.net/
http://www.diabetes-warrior.net/about-me-and-diabetes/

As I said, Paleo, is another of the wacky "I know better
than people that have studied this" things that have
become so popular lately.

Obesity and lack of exercise are the 2 most common causes
of T2. I really don't want T2.
I'm not Obese and I swim 3 times a week.
Caveman diets? No thanks.

--
Dan Espen