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Green potatoes
I always wondered about potatoes green under the skin. Does this Snopes article deal with all-green, or just under skin? Anybody have the skinny on this? http://www.snopes.com/food/ingredient/greenpotatoes.asp HB |
Green potatoes
On Monday, June 9, 2014 11:06:22 AM UTC-4, Higgs Boson wrote:
I always wondered about potatoes green under the skin. Does this Snopes article deal with all-green, or just under skin? Anybody have the skinny on this? http://www.snopes.com/food/ingredient/greenpotatoes.asp HB I've never seen a potato turn green other than just under the skin. The green flesh is poisonous, but it would take a large amount to cause harm. We usually just peel them a bit deeper. |
Green potatoes
On 6/9/2014 10:06 AM, Higgs Boson wrote:
I always wondered about potatoes green under the skin. Does this Snopes article deal with all-green, or just under skin? Anybody have the skinny on this? http://www.snopes.com/food/ingredient/greenpotatoes.asp HB Go he http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...cle/002875.htm |
Green potatoes
On 6/9/2014 10:16 AM, George Shirley wrote:
On 6/9/2014 10:06 AM, Higgs Boson wrote: I always wondered about potatoes green under the skin. Does this Snopes article deal with all-green, or just under skin? Anybody have the skinny on this? http://www.snopes.com/food/ingredient/greenpotatoes.asp HB Go he http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...cle/002875.htm That says: The poison is found throughout the plant, but especially in green potatoes and new sprouts. Never eat potatoes that are spoiled or green below the skin. To me, that means the potato is safe if the green is localized to the skin. We have never gotten ill from such potatoes even though we generally eat the skins. Also, with potatoes that have started to sprout but are still firm, we remove the sprouts and then cook and eat the potatoes without suffering any harm. -- David E. Ross Climate: California Mediterranean, see http://www.rossde.com/garden/climate.html Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary |
Green potatoes
On Monday, June 9, 2014 10:35:55 AM UTC-7, David E. Ross wrote:
On 6/9/2014 10:16 AM, George Shirley wrote: On 6/9/2014 10:06 AM, Higgs Boson wrote: I always wondered about potatoes green under the skin. Does this Snopes article deal with all-green, or just under skin? Anybody have the skinny on this? http://www.snopes.com/food/ingredient/greenpotatoes.asp HB Go he http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...cle/002875.htm That says: The poison is found throughout the plant, but especially in green potatoes and new sprouts. Never eat potatoes that are spoiled or green below the skin. To me, that means the potato is safe if the green is localized to the skin. We have never gotten ill from such potatoes even though we generally eat the skins. Also, with potatoes that have started to sprout but are still firm, we remove the sprouts and then cook and eat the potatoes without suffering any harm. I'm with you, though I don't usually eat skins, but not because of greenfear. Sometimes I carve out some flesh along with sprout, harden it off a day or so, then plant. Have some coming up now. This time will harvest YOUNG, as I'm becoming addicted to those baby potatoes one can buy for $$. HB |
Green potatoes
Higgs Boson wrote:
I always wondered about potatoes green under the skin. Does this Snopes article deal with all-green, or just under skin? Anybody have the skinny on this? http://www.snopes.com/food/ingredient/greenpotatoes.asp HB I have never seen a potato that was green all the way through, it seems to me to be unlikely to ever happen as the green is chlorophyll which is only useful if exposed to light. Snaopes have it right, you would have to eat a great deal of tater to get ill. Another useful test is that nearly all alkaloids are very bitter and solanine is one such, if your spuds don't taste at all bitter then there is no problem. Keep in mind that many plants have toxins in them to ward off animals (like us) who would feed on them. This is a perfectly normal state of affairs and if you take normal precautions you will come to no harm. In some cases (eg chilli) we prize the defensive mechanism! D |
Green potatoes
On 6/9/2014 3:28 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Higgs Boson wrote: I always wondered about potatoes green under the skin. Does this Snopes article deal with all-green, or just under skin? Anybody have the skinny on this? http://www.snopes.com/food/ingredient/greenpotatoes.asp HB I have never seen a potato that was green all the way through, it seems to me to be unlikely to ever happen as the green is chlorophyll which is only useful if exposed to light. Snaopes have it right, you would have to eat a great deal of tater to get ill. Another useful test is that nearly all alkaloids are very bitter and solanine is one such, if your spuds don't taste at all bitter then there is no problem. Keep in mind that many plants have toxins in them to ward off animals (like us) who would feed on them. This is a perfectly normal state of affairs and if you take normal precautions you will come to no harm. In some cases (eg chilli) we prize the defensive mechanism! D As potatoes sprout, the starch starts to turn to sugar, which could mask the bitterness of the solanine. However, if the potato is still very firm, that conversion is not very far along. -- David E. Ross Climate: California Mediterranean, see http://www.rossde.com/garden/climate.html Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary |
Green potatoes
George Shirley wrote:
On 6/9/2014 10:06 AM, Higgs Boson wrote: I always wondered about potatoes green under the skin. Does this Snopes article deal with all-green, or just under skin? Anybody have the skinny on this? http://www.snopes.com/food/ingredient/greenpotatoes.asp HB Go he http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...cle/002875.htm This is very conservative advice. I have eaten many potatoes (after peeling) that were green under the skin and never tasted any solanine nor suffered any ill effects. But if it suits you to lay in bed at night fretting about the next chemical attack upon your person then plant your green taters. D |
Green potatoes
David E. Ross wrote:
On 6/9/2014 3:28 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote: Higgs Boson wrote: I always wondered about potatoes green under the skin. Does this Snopes article deal with all-green, or just under skin? Anybody have the skinny on this? http://www.snopes.com/food/ingredient/greenpotatoes.asp HB I have never seen a potato that was green all the way through, it seems to me to be unlikely to ever happen as the green is chlorophyll which is only useful if exposed to light. Snaopes have it right, you would have to eat a great deal of tater to get ill. Another useful test is that nearly all alkaloids are very bitter and solanine is one such, if your spuds don't taste at all bitter then there is no problem. Keep in mind that many plants have toxins in them to ward off animals (like us) who would feed on them. This is a perfectly normal state of affairs and if you take normal precautions you will come to no harm. In some cases (eg chilli) we prize the defensive mechanism! D As potatoes sprout, the starch starts to turn to sugar, which could mask the bitterness of the solanine. However, if the potato is still very firm, that conversion is not very far along. Where are these droves of people suffering solanine poisoning from potatoes? Are there any cases at all reported? You would think that there would be some evidence other than the theoretical possibility if it was a widespread real issue. D |
Green potatoes
On 06/09/2014 08:06 AM, Higgs Boson wrote:
I always wondered about potatoes green under the skin. Does this Snopes article deal with all-green, or just under skin? Anybody have the skinny on this? http://www.snopes.com/food/ingredient/greenpotatoes.asp HB Hi Higgs, Solanaceae! Spent weeks on those critters in my college Economic Botany class. Potatoes, tomatoes, peppers, eggplant are all members of the Solanaceae family, commonly know as the "nightshade" family. All Solanaceaes produce a poison called "belladonna". Some call it "Solanine". Here is a good reference on Solanaceae: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...838/Solanaceae Now the good new is that some enterprising humans in our past hybridized reduced the poison out of the fruits and the tubers. DO NOT, DO NOT eat the leaves. The leaves are still poisonous. Now for green potatoes, just peal off the green. What little belladonna you get won't hurt you. The green should only be skin deep. If they are green all the way through, toss them. The green comes from exposure to light. Store them in a dark place. Out in the open, under florescent lights at the supermarket, will accelerate the greening up of potatoes. Speaking of hurting you, those same enterprising humans also increased the carbohydrate levels of potatoes to unnatural levels not found it nature. You are much more likely to get T2 Diabetes from them (1 out 6 chance) than to get nightshade poisoning. And, folks who eat a lot of nightshades do start to build up a small resistance to belladonna. (You don't get resistant to the excess carbs, unfortunately.) Oh! If you like little potatoes, you must (friend for a suggestion, not a command) try "Dintje". They were my favorite! I was thinking of growing them before the Diabetes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bintje I use to love my potatoes as hash browns fried in butter with Rosemary. I will live vicariously through you. -T |
Green potatoes
Speaking of hurting you, those same enterprising humans also
increased the carbohydrate levels of potatoes to unnatural levels not found it nature. You are much more likely to get T2 Diabetes from them (1 out 6 chance) than to get nightshade poisoning. This is where your religion gets so weird and impractical. Roughly 2/3 of food calories world wide is carbohydrates and we can't give everybody enough to eat as it is. If we went back to "natural' levels of carbohydrate intake (yet to be defined) what is the chance that most of the world would starve very quickly? I accept that there are too many humans but don't you think this method of population reduction is rather harsh? It is simply impossible to get enough calories without grains, tubers and bananas, all high carb foods. Despite all its drawbacks we simply cannot give up farming and become hunter-gatherers, we cannot turn the clock back 10,000 years and specifically we cannot give up farming grain. How do you think the green revolution saved hundreds of millions from starvation? Please don't rabbit on about T2 diabetes, a disease of the people of rich countries who over eat and under excercise, focus on this one question. How do you feed the world for the next 50 years without heavy reliance on farming and consuming high carb crops? In case you missed it I repeat: please don't rabbit on about T2 diabetes, a disease of the people of rich countries who over eat and under excercise, focus on this one question. David |
Green potatoes
On 06/09/2014 08:12 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Speaking of hurting you, those same enterprising humans also increased the carbohydrate levels of potatoes to unnatural levels not found it nature. You are much more likely to get T2 Diabetes from them (1 out 6 chance) than to get nightshade poisoning. This is where your religion gets so weird and impractical. Roughly 2/3 of food calories world wide is carbohydrates and we can't give everybody enough to eat as it is. If we went back to "natural' levels of carbohydrate intake (yet to be defined) what is the chance that most of the world would starve very quickly? I accept that there are too many humans but don't you think this method of population reduction is rather harsh? It is simply impossible to get enough calories without grains, tubers and bananas, all high carb foods. Despite all its drawbacks we simply cannot give up farming and become hunter-gatherers, we cannot turn the clock back 10,000 years and specifically we cannot give up farming grain. How do you think the green revolution saved hundreds of millions from starvation? Please don't rabbit on about T2 diabetes, a disease of the people of rich countries who over eat and under excercise, focus on this one question. How do you feed the world for the next 50 years without heavy reliance on farming and consuming high carb crops? In case you missed it I repeat: please don't rabbit on about T2 diabetes, a disease of the people of rich countries who over eat and under excercise, focus on this one question. David David! Where in the world are you getting this bull shit. T2 Diabetes is all over the world, rich or poor. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=philippines+diabetes http://www.charantia.com/about-diabetes/ The Philippines ranks 10th among countries with the highest diabetes incidence worldwide*. An estimated 6 Million Filipinos know they have diabetes. Another 6 Million Filipinos have diabetes but do not know they have it. Health experts believe many more have impaired glucose tolerance (IGT) and are prone to diabetes. And, that was only one of the hits. And if you want other countries, try: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=diabetes+in+the+third+world http://www.cehjournal.org/article/di...world-problem/ THIS IS A WORLD WIDE EPIDEMIC! The only difference between rich and poor is the test equipment. I will let you guess how they test it in poor countries. (Hint: your kidneys spill glucose at ~160 mg/Dl. World's second worst job.) The problem is that carbs are addictive and cheap. The idea that Diabetes is caused by "over eat and under exercise" is absolute rubbish. They probably move 20 times as much as I do in a day over in the Philippines and eat a hell of a lot less. BUT SURPRISE! THEY EAT RICE! I eat lots of plants. All low carb plants. ALL HAVE BEEN FARMED. ALL HAVE BEEN HYBRIDIZED. The idea is to match what our ancestors ate, not to become them. (Okay, growing it yourself or catching it yourself is fun. Good exercise too.) Farmers need to hybridize the fat up and the carbs down. This will be what finally solves the World Wide Diabetes EPIDEMIC. But, they will have to get past a lot of special interests to do it. "over eat and under exercise" is just the special interests looking guilty say, "Gee Wiz, how did that happen?" With one out of six of us going to be injured by this (perhaps one out of three in the near future), yes, I will warn others. It is the decent thing to do. I will also let others that have already been injured know how they can live a normal life, Diabetes and drug free. Also the decent thing to do. For people who are not already injured, a half a potato here and there won't hurt anyone. Just watch yourself. Eat a variety of food in balance. And, eschew foods that are full of chemicals and have four times the amount of carbs found in nature. THERE ARE LOTS OF OTHER PLANTS TO EAT! Yummy ones too, especially after your satiation switch normalizes and you get your sense of taste back. I am looking forward to a ton of them this harvest! If I get good at this, maybe I will freeze or bottle some. DRUG AND ALLOPATH FREE SINCE SEPTEMBER 2013! -T |
Green potatoes
On Monday, June 9, 2014 4:59:06 PM UTC-7, Todd wrote:
On 06/09/2014 08:06 AM, Higgs Boson wrote: I always wondered about potatoes green under the skin. Does this Snopes article deal with all-green, or just under skin? Anybody have the skinny on this? http://www.snopes.com/food/ingredient/greenpotatoes.asp HB Hi Higgs, Solanaceae! Spent weeks on those critters in my college Economic Botany class. Potatoes, tomatoes, peppers, eggplant are all members of the Solanaceae family, commonly know as the "nightshade" family. All Solanaceaes produce a poison called "belladonna". Some call it "Solanine". Isn't that used to poison people in mystery novels? Here is a good reference on Solanaceae: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...838/Solanaceae Now the good new is that some enterprising humans in our past hybridized reduced the poison out of the fruits and the tubers. DO NOT, DO NOT eat the leaves. The leaves are still poisonous. Now for green potatoes, just peal off the green. What little belladonna you get won't hurt you. The green should only be skin deep. If they are green all the way through, toss them. The green comes from exposure to light. Store them in a dark place. Out in the open, under florescent lights at the supermarket, will accelerate the greening up of potatoes. Speaking of hurting you, those same enterprising humans also increased the carbohydrate levels of potatoes to unnatural levels not found it nature. Damn, damn, damn! I had no idea "they" were ****ing with my potatoes!!! As a card-carrying potato freak, I highly resent this meddling. Would buying "organic", whatever THAT means in this day & age, get me potatoes the way "God" made them? Surely SHE wouldn't ****with one of HER creations... You are much more likely to get T2 Diabetes from them (1 out 6 chance) than to get nightshade poisoning. And, folks who eat a lot of nightshades do start to build up a small resistance to belladonna. (You don't get resistant to the excess carbs, unfortunately.) Oh! If you like little potatoes, you must (friend for a suggestion, not a command) try "Bintje". They were my favorite! I was thinking of growing them before the Diabetes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bintje I'll see if they're sold around here (So. Calif). I've been getting my little darlings at Trader Joe I use to love my potatoes as hash browns fried in butter with Rosemary. I will live vicariously through you. I nuke big potatoes & when they've cooled somewhat, slice & fry in butter with paprika. Sorry about the diabetes! Medical researchers,esp. the Israelis, are always coming up with technical & medical progress. I mean mind-blowing stuff that might help you. Not meaning to be pushy, but sometimes we have to do our own research. Good luck! HB |
Green potatoes
On 06/09/2014 11:20 PM, Todd wrote:
Back when I could eat them, the local grown (organic) ones tasted a lot better. Had a friend years ago that harvested potatoes. When he got hungry, he'd pop one down the exhaust pipe of his tractor. When it was done, it would pop (fly) out of the pipe and land in the field somewhere. He'd get out, fetch it, and eat it. YUK! It must have tasted like utter hell. |
Green potatoes
On 06/09/2014 10:41 PM, Higgs Boson wrote:
Isn't that used to poison people in mystery novels? Yes. Somewhere I heard that Agatha Christy made sure the poisons in her novels didn't actually work to keep bad people from using them for real. |
Green potatoes
On 10/06/2014 1:12 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:
It is simply impossible to get enough calories without grains, tubers and bananas, all high carb foods. Despite all its drawbacks we simply cannot give up farming and become hunter-gatherers, Hunter-gatherers would have gorged on any form of food that was abundant if they could get their hands on it regardless of whether it was a carb or a protein so I find it odd that anyone would try to turn back the food clock. we cannot turn the clock back 10,000 years and specifically we cannot give up farming grain. How do you think the green revolution saved hundreds of millions from starvation? Please don't rabbit on about T2 diabetes, a disease of the people of rich countries who over eat and under excercise, focus on this one question. How do you feed the world for the next 50 years without heavy reliance on farming and consuming high carb crops? In case you missed it I repeat: please don't rabbit on about T2 diabetes, a disease of the people of rich countries who over eat and under excercise, focus on this one question. Yes. I find it amazing how little exercise seems to be done these days in comparison to how much intake of chow there is in our modern societies. The paleo walking regime would be a good thing to resurrect. Or even a Victorian walking regime. There is an innitiative of the Qld health dept that has gone round the country as a Healthy Heart program. It's called something like "10,000steps" and the goal is to walk 10,000 steps each day. I put on a pedometer and did over 10,000 steps on a normal day of doing housework, gardening and animal care. I did 2 lots of baking in addition to the meals, did a bit of gardening, did 2 loads of washing and hung them out on the line and then brought the clothes in when they were dry and put them away. I did a bit of vacuuming and visited the chooks twice to let them out, feed and water them, collect the eggs and then lock them up for the night. Just an average day for me but I wonder what a lazy sloth step count would be. |
Green potatoes
Todd wrote:
On 06/09/2014 08:12 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote: Speaking of hurting you, those same enterprising humans also increased the carbohydrate levels of potatoes to unnatural levels not found it nature. You are much more likely to get T2 Diabetes from them (1 out 6 chance) than to get nightshade poisoning. This is where your religion gets so weird and impractical. Roughly 2/3 of food calories world wide is carbohydrates and we can't give everybody enough to eat as it is. If we went back to "natural' levels of carbohydrate intake (yet to be defined) what is the chance that most of the world would starve very quickly? I accept that there are too many humans but don't you think this method of population reduction is rather harsh? It is simply impossible to get enough calories without grains, tubers and bananas, all high carb foods. Despite all its drawbacks we simply cannot give up farming and become hunter-gatherers, we cannot turn the clock back 10,000 years and specifically we cannot give up farming grain. How do you think the green revolution saved hundreds of millions from starvation? Please don't rabbit on about T2 diabetes, a disease of the people of rich countries who over eat and under excercise, focus on this one question. How do you feed the world for the next 50 years without heavy reliance on farming and consuming high carb crops? In case you missed it I repeat: please don't rabbit on about T2 diabetes, a disease of the people of rich countries who over eat and under excercise, focus on this one question. David David! Where in the world are you getting this bull shit. T2 Diabetes is all over the world, rich or poor. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=philippines+diabetes http://www.charantia.com/about-diabetes/ The Philippines ranks 10th among countries with the highest diabetes incidence worldwide*. An estimated 6 Million Filipinos know they have diabetes. Another 6 Million Filipinos have diabetes but do not know they have it. Health experts believe many more have impaired glucose tolerance (IGT) and are prone to diabetes. And, that was only one of the hits. And if you want other countries, try: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=diabetes+in+the+third+world http://www.cehjournal.org/article/di...world-problem/ THIS IS A WORLD WIDE EPIDEMIC! The only difference between rich and poor is the test equipment. I will let you guess how they test it in poor countries. (Hint: your kidneys spill glucose at ~160 mg/Dl. World's second worst job.) The problem is that carbs are addictive and cheap. The idea that Diabetes is caused by "over eat and under exercise" is absolute rubbish. They probably move 20 times as much as I do in a day over in the Philippines and eat a hell of a lot less. BUT SURPRISE! THEY EAT RICE! I eat lots of plants. All low carb plants. ALL HAVE BEEN FARMED. ALL HAVE BEEN HYBRIDIZED. The idea is to match what our ancestors ate, not to become them. (Okay, growing it yourself or catching it yourself is fun. Good exercise too.) Farmers need to hybridize the fat up and the carbs down. This will be what finally solves the World Wide Diabetes EPIDEMIC. But, they will have to get past a lot of special interests to do it. "over eat and under exercise" is just the special interests looking guilty say, "Gee Wiz, how did that happen?" With one out of six of us going to be injured by this (perhaps one out of three in the near future), yes, I will warn others. It is the decent thing to do. I will also let others that have already been injured know how they can live a normal life, Diabetes and drug free. Also the decent thing to do. For people who are not already injured, a half a potato here and there won't hurt anyone. Just watch yourself. Eat a variety of food in balance. And, eschew foods that are full of chemicals and have four times the amount of carbs found in nature. THERE ARE LOTS OF OTHER PLANTS TO EAT! Yummy ones too, especially after your satiation switch normalizes and you get your sense of taste back. I am looking forward to a ton of them this harvest! If I get good at this, maybe I will freeze or bottle some. DRUG AND ALLOPATH FREE SINCE SEPTEMBER 2013! -T Sorry folks I couldn't resist the temptation. I know it's puerile, like tapping on the cage in the reptile house. Todd didn't disappoint, struck out like an Eastern Brown in an ants nest. I'll try not to do it again. He might hurt his nose on the glass. David |
Green potatoes
"David Hare-Scott" writes:
Sorry folks I couldn't resist the temptation. I know it's puerile, like tapping on the cage in the reptile house. Todd didn't disappoint, struck out like an Eastern Brown in an ants nest. I'll try not to do it again. He might hurt his nose on the glass. Yep. What's easier to accept: I got poisoned by the food industry, or, I ate too much and I got sick. -- Dan Espen |
Green potatoes
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Green potatoes
On 06/10/2014 06:36 AM, Dan.Espen wrote:
"David Hare-Scott" writes: Sorry folks I couldn't resist the temptation. I know it's puerile, like tapping on the cage in the reptile house. Todd didn't disappoint, struck out like an Eastern Brown in an ants nest. I'll try not to do it again. He might hurt his nose on the glass. Yep. What's easier to accept: I got poisoned by the food industry, or, I ate too much and I got sick. Hi Dan, Or I eat what I want and to hell with the consequences. And by the way, I chose what I ate. I believed the "healthy carbs" bull shit. I should have known better, but I liked what I was eating. Carbs are addictive. And, guess what. I still eat too much and I am getting better. Wonder why that is? Do you suppose it is "what" I eat? No, couldn't be. Not a chance. I had to have hurt myself because I sit on my fat ass and eat too much! (2+2=3) Eating too much and drug and allopath free since September 2013. -T No sign of any body parts falling off. Hmmm. Wonder why? Has nothing whatsoever to do with what I eat. Nope. Not a chance. |
Green potatoes
On 06/10/2014 05:31 AM, Fran Farmer wrote:
Hunter-gatherers would have gorged on any form of food that was abundant if they could get their hands on it regardless of whether it was a carb or a protein so I find it odd that anyone would try to turn back the food clock. Hi Fran, "Hunter-gatherers" ate whatever they could get their hands on. And when it was available, they always ate too much. They also had a lot more variety than we do today. A "well balanced diet" and didn't even realize it. And no T2 Diabetes. The difference from today was that they had not artificially hybridized plants for unnatural amounts of carbohydrates. They couldn't get their hands on what is injuring us today. Our bodies are not designed for it. And there is no "natural selection" as we die from excess carbohydrate poisoning after we reproduce. As far as turning back the clock, T2 Diabetes is a world side epidemic. We need to use the same smarts that got us these artificial high carb plants to hybridize the fat up and the carbs down. That will end the problem. In the mean time, there are just a hand full of plants to avoid and you won't risk injuring yourself. One-out of-six! And I still eat too much. I am really enjoying being able to taste my food again. And I am turning out to be a pretty good cook (lots of room to improve though). I am like a kid in a candy store when I get into the produce section of grocery store. Meat section too. I ignore the row after row after row of "healthy carbs". -T |
Green potatoes
On 06/10/2014 06:20 AM, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Sorry folks I couldn't resist the temptation. I know it's puerile, like tapping on the cage in the reptile house. Todd didn't disappoint, struck out like an Eastern Brown in an ants nest. I'll try not to do it again. He might hurt his nose on the glass. David No, you just lost the argument and decided to insult me. |
Green potatoes
On 06/10/2014 10:30 AM, Todd wrote:
We need to use the same smarts that got us these artificial high carb plants to hybridize the fat up and the carbs down. Hi Fran, You just reminded me to add avocados to this weeks shopping list. Great source of plant fat. (Also proves it can be done.) You never said what kind of cow you raise? (Zero carb!) Out here most all of the ranches are Cow-Calf. For those unfamiliar, Cow-Calf is where the ranchers raise the calves to a certain age, then sell then to others to raise the rest of the way. Sort of like the tomato plants we buy at the nursery. When the ranchers round up all the calves for sale, the mamas cry all night. Kind of heart breaking. One guy raises cows with the bent horns that the rodeo cowboys like to wrestle to the ground -- too hard to do with straight horns. -T |
Green potatoes
On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 5:31:32 AM UTC-7, Fran Farmer wrote:
On 10/06/2014 1:12 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote: It is simply impossible to get enough calories without grains, tubers and bananas, all high carb foods. Despite all its drawbacks we simply cannot give up farming and become hunter-gatherers, Hunter-gatherers would have gorged on any form of food that was abundant if they could get their hands on it regardless of whether it was a carb or a protein so I find it odd that anyone would try to turn back the food clock. we cannot turn the clock back 10,000 years and specifically we cannot give up farming grain. How do you think the green revolution saved hundreds of millions from starvation? Please don't rabbit on about T2 diabetes, a disease of the people of rich countries who over eat and under excercise, focus on this one question. How do you feed the world for the next 50 years without heavy reliance on farming and consuming high carb crops? In case you missed it I repeat: please don't rabbit on about T2 diabetes, a disease of the people of rich countries who over eat and under excercise, focus on this one question. Yes. I find it amazing how little exercise seems to be done these days in comparison to how much intake of chow there is in our modern societies. The paleo walking regime would be a good thing to resurrect. Or even a Victorian walking regime. There is an innitiative of the Qld health dept that has gone round the country as a Healthy Heart program. It's called something like "10,000steps" and the goal is to walk 10,000 steps each day. I put on a pedometer and did over 10,000 steps on a normal day of doing housework, gardening and animal care. I did 2 lots of baking in addition to the meals, did a bit of gardening, did 2 loads of washing and hung them out on the line and then brought the clothes in when they were dry and put them away. I did a bit of vacuuming and visited the chooks twice to let them out, feed and water them, collect the eggs and then lock them up for the night. Just an average day for me but I wonder what a lazy sloth step count would be. We have that 10,000 steps thingie up here too. I put in the same or more as you in house, garden, shoppin, etc. but it never occurred to me that these steps would count toward the 10K. I thought it had to be stride ahead.. Agree 1000% on need to walk more. It IS true that the greater LA area IS dreadfully spread out, such that it would take a good part of the day to take bus(es) to distant part of county.. With better public transport, the suffering could have been mitigated decades ago. But the government is owned by the oil & gas & automobile barons who have spent gazillions over time at the est Little Whorehouse in Washington (AKA U.S. Congress) to make sure their products continue to be consumed, faut de mieux. Now the traffic is so bad -- supposed to be worst in country ??? that people just give up driving during rush hour which used to begin about 4:30-5:00.. Then 3:30-4:00 - then ... so now it is perpetual rush hour. I've read that people spent a WEEK of their lives stuck in traffic!!! Personally, as a card-carrying science freak, I used to enjoy events at JPL and Caltech. Not any more..check out the 405 Freeway at rush hour! Apocalyptic. Back to walking: So, it's a great concept, but realistically... At least we have a lovely promenade overlooking the Pacific -- well used by people and dogs (on leash). HB |
Green potatoes
On 06/10/2014 11:54 AM, Higgs Boson wrote:
Back to walking: So, it's a great concept, but realistically... At least we have a lovely promenade overlooking the Pacific -- well used by people and dogs (on leash). HB Hi Higgs, I personally hate exercise. Rode a stationary bike once and though I'd died and gone to hell. But, if you put a fishing rod in my hands and tell me there are trout over that mountain, I will hike, run, crawl over rocks ... So as Mark Sisson (Mr. Paleo) puts it, the best exercise is the "one that you will do". I find that walking/hiking will bring back down the blood sugar spikes from stress and down about 10 to 15 points in general. And, I also find that you don't have to exercise your ass off either, just do something. TROUT FEAR ME! -T |
Green potatoes
Todd wrote:
On 06/10/2014 06:20 AM, David Hare-Scott wrote: Sorry folks I couldn't resist the temptation. I know it's puerile, like tapping on the cage in the reptile house. Todd didn't disappoint, struck out like an Eastern Brown in an ants nest. I'll try not to do it again. He might hurt his nose on the glass. David No, you just lost the argument and decided to insult me. There was no argument. How do you feed the world for the next 50 years without heavy reliance on farming and consuming high carb crops? D |
Green potatoes
David Hare-Scott wrote:
.... How do you feed the world for the next 50 years without heavy reliance on farming and consuming high carb crops? the same way it was done before much of the current nonsense came along. diversity, smaller farms and people working together as an actual community. i've seen good results here on not much room at all, no reason it can't work on a larger scale other than needing more people who would want to do it. enough people get hungry enough and perhaps they will want to do it too. songbird |
Green potatoes
On 11/06/2014 8:36 AM, David Hare-Scott wrote:
Todd wrote: On 06/10/2014 06:20 AM, David Hare-Scott wrote: Sorry folks I couldn't resist the temptation. I know it's puerile, like tapping on the cage in the reptile house. Todd didn't disappoint, struck out like an Eastern Brown in an ants nest. I'll try not to do it again. He might hurt his nose on the glass. David No, you just lost the argument and decided to insult me. There was no argument. How do you feed the world for the next 50 years without heavy reliance on farming and consuming high carb crops? There will be no sensible response. As a beef producer (grass fed only) and someone who comes from a long line of potato growers and from an immediate family that owned a free range poultry business, I know that access to the type of food that Todd keeps wittering on about is both expensive and scarce even in first world societies. We first worlders are OK, stuff the rest of the world.................... |
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On 11/06/2014 3:30 AM, Todd wrote:
On 06/10/2014 05:31 AM, Fran Farmer wrote: Hunter-gatherers would have gorged on any form of food that was abundant if they could get their hands on it regardless of whether it was a carb or a protein so I find it odd that anyone would try to turn back the food clock. Hi Fran, "Hunter-gatherers" ate whatever they could get their hands on. And when it was available, they always ate too much. They also had a lot more variety than we do today. A "well balanced diet" and didn't even realize it. And no T2 Diabetes. Where is your cite to prove that there was no T2 diabetes amongst hunter gatherers? The difference from today was that they had not artificially hybridized plants for unnatural amounts of carbohydrates. They couldn't get their hands on what is injuring us today. Our bodies are not designed for it. And there is no "natural selection" as we die from excess carbohydrate poisoning after we reproduce. As far as turning back the clock, T2 Diabetes is a world side epidemic. As is obesity and falling rates of physical activity according to the WHO. We need to use the same smarts that got us these artificial high carb plants to hybridize the fat up and the carbs down. That will end the problem. As will increased physical activity, eating in moderation and loss of weight. In the mean time, there are just a hand full of plants to avoid and you won't risk injuring yourself. One-out of-six! And I still eat too much. Then perhaps you could try to learn self control. I am really enjoying being able to taste my food again. And I am turning out to be a pretty good cook (lots of room to improve though). I am like a kid in a candy store when I get into the produce section of grocery store. Meat section too. I ignore the row after row after row of "healthy carbs". -T |
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On 11/06/2014 4:20 AM, Todd wrote:
On 06/10/2014 10:30 AM, Todd wrote: We need to use the same smarts that got us these artificial high carb plants to hybridize the fat up and the carbs down. Hi Fran, You just reminded me to add avocados to this weeks shopping list. Great source of plant fat. (Also proves it can be done.) You never said what kind of cow you raise? Angus and some Angus cross. (Zero carb!) Out here most all of the ranches are Cow-Calf. For those unfamiliar, Cow-Calf is where the ranchers raise the calves to a certain age, then sell then to others to raise the rest of the way. Sort of like the tomato plants we buy at the nursery. When the ranchers round up all the calves for sale, the mamas cry all night. Kind of heart breaking. One guy raises cows with the bent horns that the rodeo cowboys like to wrestle to the ground -- too hard to do with straight horns. -T |
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On 11/06/2014 4:54 AM, Higgs Boson wrote:
On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 5:31:32 AM UTC-7, Fran Farmer wrote: On 10/06/2014 1:12 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote: It is simply impossible to get enough calories without grains, tubers and bananas, all high carb foods. Despite all its drawbacks we simply cannot give up farming and become hunter-gatherers, Hunter-gatherers would have gorged on any form of food that was abundant if they could get their hands on it regardless of whether it was a carb or a protein so I find it odd that anyone would try to turn back the food clock. we cannot turn the clock back 10,000 years and specifically we cannot give up farming grain. How do you think the green revolution saved hundreds of millions from starvation? Please don't rabbit on about T2 diabetes, a disease of the people of rich countries who over eat and under excercise, focus on this one question. How do you feed the world for the next 50 years without heavy reliance on farming and consuming high carb crops? In case you missed it I repeat: please don't rabbit on about T2 diabetes, a disease of the people of rich countries who over eat and under excercise, focus on this one question. Yes. I find it amazing how little exercise seems to be done these days in comparison to how much intake of chow there is in our modern societies. The paleo walking regime would be a good thing to resurrect. Or even a Victorian walking regime. There is an innitiative of the Qld health dept that has gone round the country as a Healthy Heart program. It's called something like "10,000steps" and the goal is to walk 10,000 steps each day. I put on a pedometer and did over 10,000 steps on a normal day of doing housework, gardening and animal care. I did 2 lots of baking in addition to the meals, did a bit of gardening, did 2 loads of washing and hung them out on the line and then brought the clothes in when they were dry and put them away. I did a bit of vacuuming and visited the chooks twice to let them out, feed and water them, collect the eggs and then lock them up for the night. Just an average day for me but I wonder what a lazy sloth step count would be. We have that 10,000 steps thingie up here too. I found that interesting that it was also in the US so did a google - apparently the 10kstep thing started in Japan in the 60s. It's got around since them :-)) I put in the same or more as you in house, garden, shoppin, etc. but it never occurred to me that these steps would count toward the 10K. I thought it had to be stride ahead.. No, apparently the reason why it was started was because the average person only did between 3 and 5k per day and that's not enough. The recommendation is for 30 minutes continuous a day where you can still talk whilst walking plus try to get some vigorous (can't talk) each week. Agree 1000% on need to walk more. It IS true that the greater LA area IS dreadfully spread out, such that it would take a good part of the day to take bus(es) to distant part of county. With better public transport, the suffering could have been mitigated decades ago. But the government is owned by the oil & gas & automobile barons who have spent gazillions over time at the est Little Whorehouse in Washington (AKA U.S. Congress) to make sure their products continue to be consumed, faut de mieux. Now the traffic is so bad -- supposed to be worst in country ??? that people just give up driving during rush hour which used to begin about 4:30-5:00. Then 3:30-4:00 - then ... so now it is perpetual rush hour. I've read that people spent a WEEK of their lives stuck in traffic!!! Personally, as a card-carrying science freak, I used to enjoy events at JPL and Caltech. Not any more..check out the 405 Freeway at rush hour! Apocalyptic. Back to walking: So, it's a great concept, but realistically... I have no trouble fitting in walking. I lve on a farm but I also live near a small village and have joined a wlakign gorup there. But another example is that yesterday I had a Specialist Doctor's appointment in the Moderate Smoke. I parked in a multi storey car park at least 15 minutes walk away from the Doctor's rooms and them walked vigorously to the appointment. I was still at least 15 minutes early. I do the same thing when I shop. Put the car in the far distant corner of the supermarket and then wheel my trolley back there and if I need to go to anonther shop I'll walk there from that car park and then walk back with my goodies in a carry back I always carry with me (assuming of course that it's only a few items and not something that I'd need a team of Sherpas to carry back). At least we have a lovely promenade overlooking the Pacific -- well used by people and dogs (on leash). Don't you have any sidewalks in your suburb? |
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On 11/06/2014 12:02 PM, songbird wrote:
David Hare-Scott wrote: ... How do you feed the world for the next 50 years without heavy reliance on farming and consuming high carb crops? the same way it was done before much of the current nonsense came along. diversity, smaller farms and people working together as an actual community. i've seen good results here on not much room at all, no reason it can't work on a larger scale other than needing more people who would want to do it. enough people get hungry enough and perhaps they will want to do it too. Cuba is a good example of those sorts of techniques. I can't imagine too many people in the first world being willing volunteers for the sort of hard work that involves. |
Green potatoes
songbird wrote:
David Hare-Scott wrote: ... How do you feed the world for the next 50 years without heavy reliance on farming and consuming high carb crops? the same way it was done before much of the current nonsense came along. diversity, smaller farms and people working together as an actual community. There just won't be enough food. What is so hard to understand about 2/3 of the worlds food calories come from carbohdrates, mainly grain grown on farms? If you stop doing that what do they eat? Do it like it was done before? What was that, when? When the entire world population was a few million? How does that scale up to 7 billion? Where does the land come from? i've seen good results here on not much room at all, no reason it can't work on a larger scale other than needing more people who would want to do it. enough people get hungry enough and perhaps they will want to do it too. Stop with the idealism for a second, take a breath and look at the figures. You and Todd are both in fantasy land. D |
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Fran Farmer wrote:
songbird wrote: David Hare-Scott wrote: ... How do you feed the world for the next 50 years without heavy reliance on farming and consuming high carb crops? the same way it was done before much of the current nonsense came along. diversity, smaller farms and people working together as an actual community. i've seen good results here on not much room at all, no reason it can't work on a larger scale other than needing more people who would want to do it. enough people get hungry enough and perhaps they will want to do it too. Cuba is a good example of those sorts of techniques. I can't imagine too many people in the first world being willing volunteers for the sort of hard work that involves. yes, they actually improved their health after the initial decline in calories, (basically they lost a meal a day for a few years until the veggie patches came into production). the thing is, that if you get everyone to put in a few hours here or there it isn't that bad. right now we are two people who sort of garden a few thousand square feet, it's not intensively done or even with a lot of fiddling, and while we may not have perfect results it still provides a great deal of food. like right now, i'm harvesting strawberries so that's more than we'll ever be able to eat fresh. making freezer jam today and after one more large round of picking/processing i'll probably call people and let them know they can come pick when they want, first come first served. critters are eating plenty of them too. songbird |
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In article
songbird writes: the thing is, that if you get everyone to put in a few hours here or there it isn't that bad. right now we are two people who sort of garden a few thousand square feet, it's not intensively done or even with a lot of fiddling, and while we may not have perfect results it still provides a great deal of food. Accepting wikipedia's numbers for the sake of debate, New York City (proper) has an area of 304.8 square miles and a population of 8,405,837. According to my calculator, that works out to about 1010 square feet per person. Take out the space used by roads, walkways, parks and non-flattop buildings. How well do you think they will eat if they put in a few hours each, but you take away the farm influx? And at ~27k/sqmi, NYC doesn't even come close to getting on wikipedia's list of top sities by population density. Looks like Manila works out to about 250 sqft/person. What you say can be done, but it cannot be done for the current global population. -- Drew Lawson | What you own is your own kingdom | What you do is your own glory | What you love is your own power | What you live is your own story |
Green potatoes
On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 10:45:24 PM UTC-7, Fran Farmer wrote:
On 11/06/2014 4:54 AM, Higgs Boson wrote: On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 5:31:32 AM UTC-7, Fran Farmer wrote: On 10/06/2014 1:12 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote: It is simply impossible to get enough calories without grains, tubers and bananas, all high carb foods. Despite all its drawbacks we simply cannot give up farming and become hunter-gatherers, Hunter-gatherers would have gorged on any form of food that was abundant if they could get their hands on it regardless of whether it was a carb or a protein so I find it odd that anyone would try to turn back the food clock. we cannot turn the clock back 10,000 years and specifically we cannot give up farming grain. How do you think the green revolution saved hundreds of millions from starvation? Please don't rabbit on about T2 diabetes, a disease of the people of rich countries who over eat and under excercise, focus on this one question. How do you feed the world for the next 50 years without heavy reliance on farming and consuming high carb crops? In case you missed it I repeat: please don't rabbit on about T2 diabetes, a disease of the people of rich countries who over eat and under excercise, focus on this one question. Yes. I find it amazing how little exercise seems to be done these days in comparison to how much intake of chow there is in our modern societies. The paleo walking regime would be a good thing to resurrect. |
Green potatoes
Drew Lawson wrote:
.... Accepting wikipedia's numbers for the sake of debate, New York City (proper) has an area of 304.8 square miles and a population of 8,405,837. According to my calculator, that works out to about 1010 square feet per person. Take out the space used by roads, walkways, parks and non-flattop buildings. How well do you think they will eat if they put in a few hours each, but you take away the farm influx? why is it valid to say there will be no farm inflow from the surrounding area? if it doesn't happen that we can transport food into large cities then for sure people will be moving out. there are vast areas of the surrounds that could be used again for mixed agriculture. they are fallow in large part now because most people are happy with processed packaged chemfoods (derived from corn, soy, wheat and rice). And at ~27k/sqmi, NYC doesn't even come close to getting on wikipedia's list of top sities by population density. Looks like Manila works out to about 250 sqft/person. What you say can be done, but it cannot be done for the current global population. assuming people stay in place. as you probably know, when shit hits the fan, people start to migrate. when the sea levels increase we'll already have huge movements of people and will be forced to rebuild large chunks of infrastructure, wouldn't it be great if we actually built them with sustainability, efficiency and better land use policies for people who will walk, garden and have green spaces? songbird |
Green potatoes
On 06/10/2014 10:31 PM, Fran Farmer wrote:
As is obesity and falling rates of physical activity according to the WHO. "Obesity" is from the excess consumption of carbs. To get fat required high blood sugar and insulin (the fat hormone). You can't get fat off of fat (keytones). Fat is use or lose. I had to learn all this stuff after getting diagnosed. |
Green potatoes
On 06/10/2014 10:31 PM, Fran Farmer wrote:
And I still eat too much. Then perhaps you could try to learn self control. I eat when I am hungry. Eat more at some meals, less at other, occasionally fast when I can't eat (on a customer's site, etc.). Somewhat similar to hunter-gathers. When my wife or I cook something nice, I do tend to eat a bit more. Bear in mind that I can now taste my food much better. It all works out. It is a closed loop system. In the third world, were Diabetes is becoming a huge problem, they eat a hell of a lot less that I do and move a hell of a lot more. The problem is that they eat the same thing that injured me: healthy carbs. |
Green potatoes
On 06/11/2014 02:32 PM, songbird wrote:
why is it valid to say there will be no farm inflow from the surrounding area? Hi Songbird, The surrounding area is full of farms! Some NYC folks even grow their own stuff on their roofs! Great hobby and yummy. Watched a documentary where they are trying to fish farm in their basements to cut the transportation time (bad fish stick!) on fish to market. Don't know how well that will turn out. -T |
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