HOWEDY liea,

"Julia Altshuler" wrote in message
news:RiUqb.103095$9E1.492295@attbi_s52...

Obedience training.

You mean jerking and choking the dog on a pronged
spiked pinch choke collar? Ain't that what made your
dog Cubbe TURN on you when you first got her?

Ain't it?

Of CURSE it is.

You're probably right about the reasons for the dog's
misbehavior towards you, but even if you're wrong,
the answer is the same.

That so?

Take the dog to an obedience class

Like HOWE you did to make your dog TURN on you, liea?

so you and the dog can learn together a new
way to relate.

Like HOWE you did?

There are lots of classes and philosophies and trainers.

That so? You HURT your dog, liea.

Do some reading at the library,

Got any SUGGESTIONS, liea?

and choose one you feel comfortable with.

You feel comfortable HURTIN your dog, liea.

That should be a method that involves an
emphasis on positive reinforcement.

Like HOWE you do your dog Cubbe, liea?

You should learn to teach the dog HEEL, SIT,
DOWN, COME, STAY and a few other commands.

That so? It ain't even her own dog. She got no
use for trainin him. All she wants to do is make
the dog not try to attack her.

Start with the classes and practicing at home when
your mother and stepfather aren't at home.

Your dog TURNED on you for chokin her, liea.

Some of the practice will involve teaching
commands when you and the dog are outside.

That so, liea?

Then practice when they're home but in another room.

That'll take some doin, the dog wants to attack her, liea.

Move to practice when they're in the room
with you but ignoring everything that's going on.

The dog wants to attack her, liea.

She don't wanna take IT to class, she wants to
show him she ain't gonna HURT HIM like you do
your dog Cubbe, liea.

This is a fair committment on your part since you'll
be practicing with the dog several times a day in short
sessions.

No, she's afraid the dog will attack her, liea.

It will be worth it.

The dog wants to attack her, liea. Like HOWE
your dog Cubbe attacked your only friend... and
that other dog, and tried to attack them kids, cause
YOU HURT HER and LIE abHOWET it, liea.

--Lia

(This post will invariably be followed by a viscious one

You mean, a history of you ABUSING your dog Cubbe?

from our resident usenet lunatic.

Your own dog Cubbe gets shocked and jerked
and choked on a pronged spiked pinch choke
collar and attacks people and critters and runs
HOWET on you every chance she gets, liea.

REMEMBER?

Please ignore it.

Right. Pretty EMBARRASSING stuff, eh liea?

The rest of us have him killfiled.

You mean, the liars, dog abusers, and MENTAL
CASES you play with here abHOWETS, liea?

I wouldn't know he was there if not for new posters' answers.)

RIGHT!

Here's your dog Cubbe getttin HURT and HURTIN others:

"I'd call the SHOCK fence effective and safe.
Humane is one of those hot words that people
can debate all day so I won't touch that one.
There are people who would call a regular chain
link fence inhumane," liea altshuller.

"Julia Altshuler" wrote in message
news:McYnb.45145$ao4.106231@attbi_s51...

After talking with the vet yesterday and watching Cubbe
all day today, I'm convinced that the shaking is behavioral,
not physical. Naturally I'll continue keeping an eye on her,
but when I add everything up, I don't see symptoms of
anything neurological-- and the vet agrees.

--Lia


Gwen Watson wrote:

Lia have you taken Cubbe to a Neuro Vet specialist?
There aren't many of them. TAMU recently closed
down their Neuro facilities. I was going to take Blade
for some testing for the fibrotic myopathy that he has
been diagnosed with. But then the only Vet that
is still doing any Neuro is in Dallas. And really most
of the time fibrotic myopathy is found not to be neuro.

Here's Cubbe ATTACKING a neighbor's dog just
last week, and previHOWEsly attacking liea's only
friend and assaulting a couple kids and escaping
her surrHOWEND SHOCK SYSTEM, which MADE
HER AGGRESSIVE:

From: Julia Altshuler )
Subject: Cubbe report: Chief
Date: 2003-09-12 21:04:11 PST

Chief if my neighbor Jo's 40# 1 1/2 year old Sheltie.
Jim has been running into them on his morning walks
with Cubbe. For a week he's been feeding me glowing
reports about how Cubbe is terrific with Chief.

Cubbe has never been particularly wonderful with any
other dog, so terrible in fact that I'd despaired at ever
seeing Cubbe frolic and play with other dogs.

I'd resigned myself to the idea that Cubbe is happy
with her people, her yard, her squirrels, her spot on
the couch, and that makes a pretty good life, one
that doesn't involve the companionship of her own
species. Jim's reports were encouraging.

Jim convinced Jo to bring Chief over for a playdate.
We put Cubbe on a leash so she could meet Chief
again on neutral territory. They sniffed as dogs
normally do.

Chief and Cubbe entered the front door. To my
amazement, all was fine. Out in the backyard
and off leash, Cubbe didn't pay much attention
to Chief, but there was no trouble even though
she and Chief were close to each other.

Both dogs seemed more interested that their
people were handing out treats (for good behaviors
like SITs).

Jim went into the house for some balls thinking the 2
dogs would like to chase them together. He did not
consult me about this hare brained scheme.

Jo and I were 5 feet away from the dogs when Cubbe
decided to attack Chief. She's not an experienced fighter
so I don't know if attack is the right word. She was snarfing,
making growly noises, jumping on Chief, had her mouth on
Chief's neck (on his back, behind his ears) and basically not
looking friendly, but I think if she'd wanted to do real damage,
she would have, and Chief was fine, nary a hair out of place.

Naturally with us all right there, we were able to intervene in
seconds.

A second later, it was all over. Cubbe looked like she'd
like to be friends again, but Chief, while not running away
or anything was obviously spooked and keeping his distance. Jo
and Chief went home. (I went with them for chat and
apologies, but that's not part of the Cubbe story.)

Cubbe has never food or toy guarded with people. Might
she have been guarding the balls Jim brought out? Or
was it the fact that we let our guard down for a few seconds
and she got scared of Chief when we all weren't practically
on top of her? Or did we push her too far by leaving her and
Chief together for too many minutes when a few seconds
would have been better for a first try? Or other theories?

Do we continue trying to find a dog that will put up with
Cubbe? Or do we give up again and go back to letting
Cubbe live a dogless existence?

--Lia

===================


"It Was Horrible! I Let Cubbe Out In The Backyard With
Her Usual ZAP Collar - The 10 Year Old Child Went To
Give Cubbe A Hug She Gave A Snarl-Snap Cubbe Got
Out In The Neighborhood Leashless From:

Julia F N Altshuler )
Subject: 1 step forward, 2 steps back
Date: 2001-01-07 19:28:05 PST

Cubbe got out in the neighborhood leashless for the first time
in roughly 2 years. The first few times were when we first got
her before she'd had any training and before we got the
electric fence to reinforce the physical one.

It was horrible. She paid us no attention, ignored clickers
and treats and calls. Make that, it was horrible for us. She
had a blast running free and chasing whatever she wanted. For
us it was 45 minutes of sheer terror as we tried to catch her.
Luckily there wasn't too much traffic yesterday morning. It
had snowed, and the streets weren't quite clear yet. Jim
finally caught her when she was preoccupied with her head down a
hole.

For 2 years I've been giving her a daily long walk in the
neighborhood. She now walks pretty nicely on a leash. She gets
daily indoor clicker training sessions. She has perfect
recalls in the house. She gets intermittent treats for those
recalls. She gets plenty of time to run free in the backyard.
Her recalls are less reliable there, but I've been working on
them. I haven't been as good about introducing the variable
reinforcement there, but I have been good about making sure
that she's never tricked into coming into the house when she'd
rather be outside. I always call her, give her a treat or
praise and let her go again.

So I haven't been a perfect dog trainer, but I don't think I'm
a terrible one. I say that because I'm about to ask y'all for
some help in correcting my mistakes, and while I don't mind
criticism for past mistakes, I am hoping you'll concentrate on
what I should do now.

Yesterday morning Cubbe had had some nice backyard time. I'd
gotten her into the house and was preparing to leave when she
escaped straight through the front door and right in front of
our noses. She was still wearing the zap collar, but the
battery was low. She gave a small yip when she went over the
wire, and the chase ensued.

We were careful not to scold her once she was caught.

Today I let her out in the backyard with her usual zap collar
now with a fresh battery. She was waiting by the backdoor to
come in when I went to call her. From her excited behavior, I
could tell that she fully expected to be let out the front
door again so she could have another fun romp in the
neighborhood. I'm so filled with anxiety from yesterday's
escapade that I keep checking for her every time I open the
door.

Later in the afternoon, she was much worse
about coming when called even from the backyard.

My specific questions:

How do I teach recalls when she so clearly knows
when she's in a confined space and when she isn't?

She normally only wears the zap collar when she's in the
backyard because the wire goes around the house and could zap her
when she's near certain windows inside. If I let her get
zapped at the front door with the zap collar, can I still take
the zap collar off and walk her out the front door with her
leash on? I don't want her to become afraid of the front door.

What's the best emergency procedure if, god forbid, it should
happen again?

Might Cubbe be ready for harsher training techniques? By this
I mean, I've been using clicker and treats for Cubbe because
she so obviously freaked when we used leash corrections and
scoldings when we first got her.

I know this is a hard subject to bring up without starting the
whole cruelty thread again so I'll state my opinion once and
won't defend it further: any method can be cruel for some
dogs.

Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at the
beginning, but we've come a long way since then. She trusts
us now as I mentioned in a recent post. Point is, she's been
rewarded for coming, but she's never been punished, even in
the mildest way, for not coming.

Is it time for that?

What might I look for to tell?

Last night we had friends over for dinner with their 3
daughters ages 14, 10 and 7. The girls loved Cubbe and were
having a blast clicker training her. I was impressed with how
quickly they caught on and how little correction they needed
to be consistent with the clicks and treats. Cubbe was fine
with the children; she always has been. Just as they were
getting ready to go, the 10 year old went to give Cubbe a hug.
Cubbe must have felt threatened and confined because she gave a
snarl-snap.

I was right there, and without thinking I quickly yelled,
turned Cubbe over on her back, got in the face and let her
know that no snarling is allowed. The girl wasn't frightened
at all, and her parents who were also right there hadn't
realized what had happened. I then asked the snarlee to rub
Cubbe's belly further to reinforce that Cubbe is the
submissive one in that relationship. I let Cubbe up and all
was fine.

I suppose that's another issue, but I bring it up as part of
wondering if Cubbe should be trained with punishments now.
Like I said, I did that without thinking, and now I think it
was the right thing to do. So how do I apply this to dealing
with Cubbe the escapee?

--Lia

===================

"Julia Altshuler" wrote in message
...

I need help deciding if I have a real problem with Cubbe
that needs immediate attention or if I'm imagining trouble
where there is none.

Here's what happened last April the way I described it to
a friend at the time:

I'm worried about Cubbe. Or rather, I'm kicking myself for
doing something stupid. Ellie has been over many times and
has always gotten along great with Cubbe. Cubbe is always
at the door when I let Ellie in.

She's barky-protective but then stops barking once Ellie is
inside. She's never shown any real aggression. The other
night Ellie and I went out together to run an errand.

Ellie was coming in the house with packages so I came in
first and put Cubbe in the bedroom with Jim so Ellie could
get through the door more easily. I could hear Cubbe
barking. Once Ellie was inside, I opened the bedroom door
for Cubbe. She ran out to attack the intruder. Ellie was
trying to be friendly.

Ellie put a tooth in Ellie's finger. Granted the resulting
scratch was no worse than the way my cuticles bleed when
they get dry and I don't rub lotion into them every night,
but Ellie was understandably scared.

Jim ran out and got control of Cubbe right away. I got
Ellie some alcohol and a bandage. The scary thing is that,
even though the damage is minor, it does qualify as a bite
since Cubbe did mean to do it. I guess I should just learn
from it and never let Cubbe greet someone like that again,
but I'm horribly torn up.

I've said that I would never keep an aggressive dog. Now
the whole issue is so complicated. Cubbe is great even
with kids when we meet them in the neighborhood.

Since then I've been careful not to do anything like that.

Then Halloween night Cubbe spent most of the night in the
computer room with Jim while I answered the door. She did
bark each time she heard the doorbell ring. We did nothing
to discourage that. We want her to be barky protective so
it made sense for her to bark when she heard people in the
neighborhood, especially at night. Later in the evening,
Jim put Cubbe on a leash and was hanging out with her in the
front hall while I still got the door. One of the first
people to come to the door once she was out of the computer
room was our neighbor Nicky.

I think Nicky is 11 now. He's known Cubbe since we got her
4 years ago, has always liked her, petted her and asked to
come on walks. Nick lifted his mask on the porch so I'd
know who it was. Then I invited him into the hall to pet
Cubbe.

Cubbe snarled and sort of air snapped at him. Of course
Jim was right there so no damage was done. Nick didn't
even have to draw his hand away, and he didn't get scared.
Nothing scares that boy.

I don't like this. Twice now Cubbe has been overly
protective-aggressive when people have entered the house.
Both times they've been people she knows and should like.
She's wonderfully nice to people on walks. We don't have
guests over too often so I can't comment if it's a growing
thing or not.

Comments please. Is this a major growing aggression
problem?

I'd guess it's territoriality about the house and yard.
What do I do about it?

I usually put Cubbe on a leash when friends come over
and then walk her outside while the friend gets out of
her car, and then we walk in together.

She'll still bark when they're in the house and then
calm down. Is that a good idea? Should I be
doing something more to make sure this doesn't escalate?
--Lia

=============

The Puppy Wizard wrote:

HOWEDY liea,

"Julia Altshuler" wrote in message
news:RiUqb.103095$9E1.492295@attbi_s52...

Obedience training.


You would *please* stop cross posting!!! No one here at RFC cares about
wittle Cubbe...

~john!

--
What was it like to see - the face of your own stability - suddenly look
away...

I would personally not force any contact with her. If she is afraid of
you, then for her, your presence predicts the onset of fear or bad
feelings. What you want to do is change the association, so that your
presence predicts good things.

I think it would be useful for you to take over feeding and other care
routines -- that she enjoys. However, I would remain neutral and
essentially ignore her as you go about these things. Initiating a direct
interactions (like when you pet her in the presence of your mom and
stepdad) is probably too much for her to handle. Eventually, in your
"neutral but predicting good things" role you may find that she is more
at ease around you, and over time that she may even come to you. But
don't rush it.

I have a dog who is fearful of strangers. He is most comfortable with
people who completely ignore him, as if he is not there. I reward him
for approaching them and greeting them appropriately, and after a period
of time he may solicit attention and pats from them. But this is after a
whole lot of just desensitizing him to being around strangers -- to begin
with, I would do things like pass him a treat simply for walking by a
stranger on the sidewalk, even if he didn't even look at the person.
After some time, he started looking up at me for his treat every time we
encountered a new person, and that's when I knew the association was
starting to become positive for him.

The people Solo absolutely cannot handle are the ones who force
themselves on him -- the ones who must pet him, look him right in the
eye, talk to him immediately and try to rumple his ears, bending over him
with a big smile. At best he ducks away from these people, at worst he
lunges at them with all his teeth showing. It's just too much for him.
They don't allow him to formulate an opinion of them (safe vs.
dangerous), they just plunge right in. This forces him to default to
survival mode (fight/flight).

Solo used to be terrified of my brother, who is living at home with my
mother while he is going to law school. What got Solo over it was a
whole lot of just being in the same area, with my brother totally
ignoring him, first remaining still (sitting on the couch), then doing
things like walking into the kitchen and walking back, and so on. I
would reward Solo with a click and treat every time he approached my
brother, and also give a stream of treats every time my brother did
something new (like changing position on the couch or getting up to go
into the kitchen), so that activity on my brother's part became
non-threatening. After a while he thought my brother was fairly
well-associated with cool things, and began actively soliciting attention
from him. Now they cuddle together on the couch when I go home to visit.

--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Melanie Lee Chang | Form ever follows function.
Departments of Anthropology and Biology |
University of Pennsylvania | -- Louis Sullivan
|
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

HOWEDY melanie,

"Melanie L Chang" wrote in message
...

I would personally not force any contact with her.

Right. That didn't work already.

If she is afraid of you,

Right. That's the OP's chief complaint.

then for her, your presence predicts the onset of fear or bad
feelings.

Imagine? You think maybe she was weaned too young/

What you want to do is change the association, so that your
presence predicts good things.

You mean bribes. That didn't work either, already.

I think it would be useful for you to take over feeding

That's idiocy.

and other care routines -

The OP would just like to live in peace.

- that she enjoys.

That ain't gonna happen cause the dog wants to attack her.

REMEMBER?

However, I would remain neutral and essentially ignore
her as you go about these things.

You mean, feedin an carin for her?

Initiating a direct interactions (like when you pet her in the
presence of your mom and stepdad) is probably too much
for her to handle.

Yeah. Your own dog Solo has problems for bein near people.

Eventually, in your "neutral but predicting good things" role
you may find that she is more at ease around you,

Your dog Solo has been on psychotropics and in treatment
at UofPA behavior clinic for three years UNSUCCESSFULLY.

and over time that she may even come to you.

Yeah...

But don't rush it.

BWEEAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

I have a dog who is fearful of strangers.

RIGHT!

Your dog has been on medication and in trainin for three years.

UNSUCCESSFULLY.

He is most comfortable with people who completely ignore him,

And bring him his dinner and take care of his other needs while
ignoring him.

as if he is not there.

Yeah...

I reward him for approaching them and greeting them
appropriately,

Do you nHOWE? That hasn't worked in three years, already.

HAS IT.

and after a period of time he may solicit attention and pats
from them.

BWEEAAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAAAA!!!

But this is after a whole lot of just desensitizing him to
being
around strangers -

YOUR METHODS DON'T WORK.

- to begin with,

You HURT and INTIMIDATE Solo. He was taken
off his psychotropics when you went to Europe
and he stayed at the kennel CAUSE HE WAS NORMAL.

Solo is AFRAID cause YOU HURT HIM.

I would do things like pass him a treat simply for walking by a
stranger on the sidewalk, even if he didn't even look at the
person.

That'll make some dogs suspiciHOWES, like the OP's dog.

After some time, he started looking up at me for his treat every
time we
encountered a new person, and that's when I knew the association
was
starting to become positive for him.

BWEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!

The people Solo absolutely cannot handle are the ones who force
themselves on him -- the ones who must pet him, look him right
in the
eye, talk to him immediately and try to rumple his ears, bending
over him
with a big smile. At best he ducks away from these people, at
worst he
lunges at them with all his teeth showing.

You just never know what a dog might do, eh melanie?

It's just too much for him.

That's cause you abuse him, melanie.

They don't allow him to formulate an opinion of them (safe vs.
dangerous), they just plunge right in. This forces him to
default to
survival mode (fight/flight).

You allHOWED a stranger to beat Solo in the face with a shepherd's
crook.

"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know
Jack Wouldn't HaveDone It If He Thought Solo
Couldn't Take It. I Still Crate Him Because
Otherwise I Fear He Might Eat My Cat," melanie.


----------------------------------------------------------------
---------
Melanie Lee Chang | Form ever follows
function.
Departments of Anthropology and Biology |
University of Pennsylvania | -- Louis Sullivan
|
----------------------------------------------------------------
---------

Great advice, It is something that takes time. Dogs that have been abused
are fearful and it does take time to trust again, but when they do they are
the most loyal. Good luck and keep plenty of treats on hand!

--
Sugar & Spice Quilts by Linda E
http://community.webshots.com/user/frame242

HOWEDY nana2b,

"nana2b" wrote in message
...

Great advice,

That so? The advice was mistaken and dangerHOWES.

It is something that takes time.

Should take a few minutes if you stop bribing the dog.

Dogs are SCAVENGERS. They STEAL scraps and
run to hide to eat it with their back to the wall in a
heightened state of alert.

Some dogs get AFRAID when people offer them food.

Dogs that have been abused are fearful

NO PROBLEM. That's EZ to decondition if you know HOWE.

and it does take time to trust again,

Yeah, maybe a couple days.

but when they do they are the most loyal.

NO. That's FEAR you're seein.

Good luck

Dog trainin ain't LUCK. "Luck is for SUCKERS," The
Puppy Wizard's DADDY.

and keep plenty of treats on hand!

Bribery makes this particular dog MOORE MISTRUSTFUL.
-
Sugar & Spice Quilts by Linda E
http://community.webshots.com/user/frame242

You must be WON of liea's pals from quilting. Here's
liea altshuller HURTIN her dog, and lettin her dog
HURT a other dog and a few people and havin obsessive
compulsive behavior problems as a resul of liea HURTIN her:


"I'd call the SHOCK fence effective and safe.
Humane is one of those hot words that people
can debate all day so I won't touch that one.
There are people who would call a regular chain
link fence inhumane," liea altshuller.

"Julia Altshuler" wrote in message
news:McYnb.45145$ao4.106231@attbi_s51...

After talking with the vet yesterday and watching Cubbe
all day today, I'm convinced that the shaking is behavioral,
not physical. Naturally I'll continue keeping an eye on her,
but when I add everything up, I don't see symptoms of
anything neurological-- and the vet agrees.

--Lia


Gwen Watson wrote:

Lia have you taken Cubbe to a Neuro Vet specialist?
There aren't many of them. TAMU recently closed
down their Neuro facilities. I was going to take Blade
for some testing for the fibrotic myopathy that he has
been diagnosed with. But then the only Vet that
is still doing any Neuro is in Dallas. And really most
of the time fibrotic myopathy is found not to be neuro.

Here's Cubbe ATTACKING a neighbor's dog just
last week, and previHOWEsly attacking liea's only
friend and assaulting a couple kids and escaping
her surrHOWEND SHOCK SYSTEM, which MADE
HER AGGRESSIVE:

From: Julia Altshuler )
Subject: Cubbe report: Chief
Date: 2003-09-12 21:04:11 PST

Chief if my neighbor Jo's 40# 1 1/2 year old Sheltie.
Jim has been running into them on his morning walks
with Cubbe. For a week he's been feeding me glowing
reports about how Cubbe is terrific with Chief.

Cubbe has never been particularly wonderful with any
other dog, so terrible in fact that I'd despaired at ever
seeing Cubbe frolic and play with other dogs.

I'd resigned myself to the idea that Cubbe is happy
with her people, her yard, her squirrels, her spot on
the couch, and that makes a pretty good life, one
that doesn't involve the companionship of her own
species. Jim's reports were encouraging.

Jim convinced Jo to bring Chief over for a playdate.
We put Cubbe on a leash so she could meet Chief
again on neutral territory. They sniffed as dogs
normally do.

Chief and Cubbe entered the front door. To my
amazement, all was fine. Out in the backyard
and off leash, Cubbe didn't pay much attention
to Chief, but there was no trouble even though
she and Chief were close to each other.

Both dogs seemed more interested that their
people were handing out treats (for good behaviors
like SITs).

Jim went into the house for some balls thinking the 2
dogs would like to chase them together. He did not
consult me about this hare brained scheme.

Jo and I were 5 feet away from the dogs when Cubbe
decided to attack Chief. She's not an experienced fighter
so I don't know if attack is the right word. She was snarfing,
making growly noises, jumping on Chief, had her mouth on
Chief's neck (on his back, behind his ears) and basically not
looking friendly, but I think if she'd wanted to do real damage,
she would have, and Chief was fine, nary a hair out of place.

Naturally with us all right there, we were able to intervene in
seconds.

A second later, it was all over. Cubbe looked like she'd
like to be friends again, but Chief, while not running away
or anything was obviously spooked and keeping his distance. Jo
and Chief went home. (I went with them for chat and
apologies, but that's not part of the Cubbe story.)

Cubbe has never food or toy guarded with people. Might
she have been guarding the balls Jim brought out? Or
was it the fact that we let our guard down for a few seconds
and she got scared of Chief when we all weren't practically
on top of her? Or did we push her too far by leaving her and
Chief together for too many minutes when a few seconds
would have been better for a first try? Or other theories?

Do we continue trying to find a dog that will put up with
Cubbe? Or do we give up again and go back to letting
Cubbe live a dogless existence?

--Lia

===================


"It Was Horrible! I Let Cubbe Out In The Backyard With
Her Usual ZAP Collar - The 10 Year Old Child Went To
Give Cubbe A Hug She Gave A Snarl-Snap Cubbe Got
Out In The Neighborhood Leashless From:

Julia F N Altshuler )
Subject: 1 step forward, 2 steps back
Date: 2001-01-07 19:28:05 PST

Cubbe got out in the neighborhood leashless for the first time
in roughly 2 years. The first few times were when we first got
her before she'd had any training and before we got the
electric fence to reinforce the physical one.

It was horrible. She paid us no attention, ignored clickers
and treats and calls. Make that, it was horrible for us. She
had a blast running free and chasing whatever she wanted. For
us it was 45 minutes of sheer terror as we tried to catch her.
Luckily there wasn't too much traffic yesterday morning. It
had snowed, and the streets weren't quite clear yet. Jim
finally caught her when she was preoccupied with her head down a
hole.

For 2 years I've been giving her a daily long walk in the
neighborhood. She now walks pretty nicely on a leash. She gets
daily indoor clicker training sessions. She has perfect
recalls in the house. She gets intermittent treats for those
recalls. She gets plenty of time to run free in the backyard.
Her recalls are less reliable there, but I've been working on
them. I haven't been as good about introducing the variable
reinforcement there, but I have been good about making sure
that she's never tricked into coming into the house when she'd
rather be outside. I always call her, give her a treat or
praise and let her go again.

So I haven't been a perfect dog trainer, but I don't think I'm
a terrible one. I say that because I'm about to ask y'all for
some help in correcting my mistakes, and while I don't mind
criticism for past mistakes, I am hoping you'll concentrate on
what I should do now.

Yesterday morning Cubbe had had some nice backyard time. I'd
gotten her into the house and was preparing to leave when she
escaped straight through the front door and right in front of
our noses. She was still wearing the zap collar, but the
battery was low. She gave a small yip when she went over the
wire, and the chase ensued.

We were careful not to scold her once she was caught.

Today I let her out in the backyard with her usual zap collar
now with a fresh battery. She was waiting by the backdoor to
come in when I went to call her. From her excited behavior, I
could tell that she fully expected to be let out the front
door again so she could have another fun romp in the
neighborhood. I'm so filled with anxiety from yesterday's
escapade that I keep checking for her every time I open the
door.

Later in the afternoon, she was much worse
about coming when called even from the backyard.

My specific questions:

How do I teach recalls when she so clearly knows
when she's in a confined space and when she isn't?

She normally only wears the zap collar when she's in the
backyard because the wire goes around the house and could zap her
when she's near certain windows inside. If I let her get
zapped at the front door with the zap collar, can I still take
the zap collar off and walk her out the front door with her
leash on? I don't want her to become afraid of the front door.

What's the best emergency procedure if, god forbid, it should
happen again?

Might Cubbe be ready for harsher training techniques? By this
I mean, I've been using clicker and treats for Cubbe because
she so obviously freaked when we used leash corrections and
scoldings when we first got her.

I know this is a hard subject to bring up without starting the
whole cruelty thread again so I'll state my opinion once and
won't defend it further: any method can be cruel for some
dogs.

Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at the
beginning, but we've come a long way since then. She trusts
us now as I mentioned in a recent post. Point is, she's been
rewarded for coming, but she's never been punished, even in
the mildest way, for not coming.

Is it time for that?

What might I look for to tell?

Last night we had friends over for dinner with their 3
daughters ages 14, 10 and 7. The girls loved Cubbe and were
having a blast clicker training her. I was impressed with how
quickly they caught on and how little correction they needed
to be consistent with the clicks and treats. Cubbe was fine
with the children; she always has been. Just as they were
getting ready to go, the 10 year old went to give Cubbe a hug.
Cubbe must have felt threatened and confined because she gave a
snarl-snap.

I was right there, and without thinking I quickly yelled,
turned Cubbe over on her back, got in the face and let her
know that no snarling is allowed. The girl wasn't frightened
at all, and her parents who were also right there hadn't
realized what had happened. I then asked the snarlee to rub
Cubbe's belly further to reinforce that Cubbe is the
submissive one in that relationship. I let Cubbe up and all
was fine.

I suppose that's another issue, but I bring it up as part of
wondering if Cubbe should be trained with punishments now.
Like I said, I did that without thinking, and now I think it
was the right thing to do. So how do I apply this to dealing
with Cubbe the escapee?

--Lia

===================

"Julia Altshuler" wrote in message
...

I need help deciding if I have a real problem with Cubbe
that needs immediate attention or if I'm imagining trouble
where there is none.

Here's what happened last April the way I described it to
a friend at the time:

I'm worried about Cubbe. Or rather, I'm kicking myself for
doing something stupid. Ellie has been over many times and
has always gotten along great with Cubbe. Cubbe is always
at the door when I let Ellie in.

She's barky-protective but then stops barking once Ellie is
inside. She's never shown any real aggression. The other
night Ellie and I went out together to run an errand.

Ellie was coming in the house with packages so I came in
first and put Cubbe in the bedroom with Jim so Ellie could
get through the door more easily. I could hear Cubbe
barking. Once Ellie was inside, I opened the bedroom door
for Cubbe. She ran out to attack the intruder. Ellie was
trying to be friendly.

Ellie put a tooth in Ellie's finger. Granted the resulting
scratch was no worse than the way my cuticles bleed when
they get dry and I don't rub lotion into them every night,
but Ellie was understandably scared.

Jim ran out and got control of Cubbe right away. I got
Ellie some alcohol and a bandage. The scary thing is that,
even though the damage is minor, it does qualify as a bite
since Cubbe did mean to do it. I guess I should just learn
from it and never let Cubbe greet someone like that again,
but I'm horribly torn up.

I've said that I would never keep an aggressive dog. Now
the whole issue is so complicated. Cubbe is great even
with kids when we meet them in the neighborhood.

Since then I've been careful not to do anything like that.

Then Halloween night Cubbe spent most of the night in the
computer room with Jim while I answered the door. She did
bark each time she heard the doorbell ring. We did nothing
to discourage that. We want her to be barky protective so
it made sense for her to bark when she heard people in the
neighborhood, especially at night. Later in the evening,
Jim put Cubbe on a leash and was hanging out with her in the
front hall while I still got the door. One of the first
people to come to the door once she was out of the computer
room was our neighbor Nicky.

I think Nicky is 11 now. He's known Cubbe since we got her
4 years ago, has always liked her, petted her and asked to
come on walks. Nick lifted his mask on the porch so I'd
know who it was. Then I invited him into the hall to pet
Cubbe.

Cubbe snarled and sort of air snapped at him. Of course
Jim was right there so no damage was done. Nick didn't
even have to draw his hand away, and he didn't get scared.
Nothing scares that boy.

I don't like this. Twice now Cubbe has been overly
protective-aggressive when people have entered the house.
Both times they've been people she knows and should like.
She's wonderfully nice to people on walks. We don't have
guests over too often so I can't comment if it's a growing
thing or not.

Comments please. Is this a major growing aggression
problem?

I'd guess it's territoriality about the house and yard.
What do I do about it?

I usually put Cubbe on a leash when friends come over
and then walk her outside while the friend gets out of
her car, and then we walk in together.

She'll still bark when they're in the house and then
calm down. Is that a good idea? Should I be
doing something more to make sure this doesn't escalate?
--Lia

=============

HOWEDY liea,

"Julia Altshuler" wrote in message
news:C38rb.103414$mZ5.687602@attbi_s54...

Hey folks!

Which folks, liea? Your lying dog abusing Punk
Thug Coward MENTALLY ILL pals?

Remember to remove the crossposts.

So folks won't SEE what you do to your dog, liea?

These dog messages are showing up all over.

Ooooh, that IS embarrassin, ain't it, liea.

--Lia

"I'd call the SHOCK fence effective and safe.
Humane is one of those hot words that people
can debate all day so I won't touch that one.
There are people who would call a regular chain
link fence inhumane," liea altshuller.

"Julia Altshuler" wrote in message
news:McYnb.45145$ao4.106231@attbi_s51...

After talking with the vet yesterday and watching Cubbe
all day today, I'm convinced that the shaking is behavioral,
not physical. Naturally I'll continue keeping an eye on her,
but when I add everything up, I don't see symptoms of
anything neurological-- and the vet agrees.

--Lia


Gwen Watson wrote:

Lia have you taken Cubbe to a Neuro Vet specialist?
There aren't many of them. TAMU recently closed
down their Neuro facilities. I was going to take Blade
for some testing for the fibrotic myopathy that he has
been diagnosed with. But then the only Vet that
is still doing any Neuro is in Dallas. And really most
of the time fibrotic myopathy is found not to be neuro.

Here's Cubbe ATTACKING a neighbor's dog just
last week, and previHOWEsly attacking liea's only
friend and assaulting a couple kids and escaping
her surrHOWEND SHOCK SYSTEM, which MADE
HER AGGRESSIVE:

From: Julia Altshuler )
Subject: Cubbe report: Chief
Date: 2003-09-12 21:04:11 PST

Chief if my neighbor Jo's 40# 1 1/2 year old Sheltie.
Jim has been running into them on his morning walks
with Cubbe. For a week he's been feeding me glowing
reports about how Cubbe is terrific with Chief.

Cubbe has never been particularly wonderful with any
other dog, so terrible in fact that I'd despaired at ever
seeing Cubbe frolic and play with other dogs.

I'd resigned myself to the idea that Cubbe is happy
with her people, her yard, her squirrels, her spot on
the couch, and that makes a pretty good life, one
that doesn't involve the companionship of her own
species. Jim's reports were encouraging.

Jim convinced Jo to bring Chief over for a playdate.
We put Cubbe on a leash so she could meet Chief
again on neutral territory. They sniffed as dogs
normally do.

Chief and Cubbe entered the front door. To my
amazement, all was fine. Out in the backyard
and off leash, Cubbe didn't pay much attention
to Chief, but there was no trouble even though
she and Chief were close to each other.

Both dogs seemed more interested that their
people were handing out treats (for good behaviors
like SITs).

Jim went into the house for some balls thinking the 2
dogs would like to chase them together. He did not
consult me about this hare brained scheme.

Jo and I were 5 feet away from the dogs when Cubbe
decided to attack Chief. She's not an experienced fighter
so I don't know if attack is the right word. She was snarfing,
making growly noises, jumping on Chief, had her mouth on
Chief's neck (on his back, behind his ears) and basically not
looking friendly, but I think if she'd wanted to do real damage,
she would have, and Chief was fine, nary a hair out of place.

Naturally with us all right there, we were able to intervene in
seconds.

A second later, it was all over. Cubbe looked like she'd
like to be friends again, but Chief, while not running away
or anything was obviously spooked and keeping his distance. Jo
and Chief went home. (I went with them for chat and
apologies, but that's not part of the Cubbe story.)

Cubbe has never food or toy guarded with people. Might
she have been guarding the balls Jim brought out? Or
was it the fact that we let our guard down for a few seconds
and she got scared of Chief when we all weren't practically
on top of her? Or did we push her too far by leaving her and
Chief together for too many minutes when a few seconds
would have been better for a first try? Or other theories?

Do we continue trying to find a dog that will put up with
Cubbe? Or do we give up again and go back to letting
Cubbe live a dogless existence?

--Lia

===================


"It Was Horrible! I Let Cubbe Out In The Backyard With
Her Usual ZAP Collar - The 10 Year Old Child Went To
Give Cubbe A Hug She Gave A Snarl-Snap Cubbe Got
Out In The Neighborhood Leashless From:

Julia F N Altshuler )
Subject: 1 step forward, 2 steps back
Date: 2001-01-07 19:28:05 PST

Cubbe got out in the neighborhood leashless for the first time
in roughly 2 years. The first few times were when we first got
her before she'd had any training and before we got the
electric fence to reinforce the physical one.

It was horrible. She paid us no attention, ignored clickers
and treats and calls. Make that, it was horrible for us. She
had a blast running free and chasing whatever she wanted. For
us it was 45 minutes of sheer terror as we tried to catch her.
Luckily there wasn't too much traffic yesterday morning. It
had snowed, and the streets weren't quite clear yet. Jim
finally caught her when she was preoccupied with her head down a
hole.

For 2 years I've been giving her a daily long walk in the
neighborhood. She now walks pretty nicely on a leash. She gets
daily indoor clicker training sessions. She has perfect
recalls in the house. She gets intermittent treats for those
recalls. She gets plenty of time to run free in the backyard.
Her recalls are less reliable there, but I've been working on
them. I haven't been as good about introducing the variable
reinforcement there, but I have been good about making sure
that she's never tricked into coming into the house when she'd
rather be outside. I always call her, give her a treat or
praise and let her go again.

So I haven't been a perfect dog trainer, but I don't think I'm
a terrible one. I say that because I'm about to ask y'all for
some help in correcting my mistakes, and while I don't mind
criticism for past mistakes, I am hoping you'll concentrate on
what I should do now.

Yesterday morning Cubbe had had some nice backyard time. I'd
gotten her into the house and was preparing to leave when she
escaped straight through the front door and right in front of
our noses. She was still wearing the zap collar, but the
battery was low. She gave a small yip when she went over the
wire, and the chase ensued.

We were careful not to scold her once she was caught.

Today I let her out in the backyard with her usual zap collar
now with a fresh battery. She was waiting by the backdoor to
come in when I went to call her. From her excited behavior, I
could tell that she fully expected to be let out the front
door again so she could have another fun romp in the
neighborhood. I'm so filled with anxiety from yesterday's
escapade that I keep checking for her every time I open the
door.

Later in the afternoon, she was much worse
about coming when called even from the backyard.

My specific questions:

How do I teach recalls when she so clearly knows
when she's in a confined space and when she isn't?

She normally only wears the zap collar when she's in the
backyard because the wire goes around the house and could zap her
when she's near certain windows inside. If I let her get
zapped at the front door with the zap collar, can I still take
the zap collar off and walk her out the front door with her
leash on? I don't want her to become afraid of the front door.

What's the best emergency procedure if, god forbid, it should
happen again?

Might Cubbe be ready for harsher training techniques? By this
I mean, I've been using clicker and treats for Cubbe because
she so obviously freaked when we used leash corrections and
scoldings when we first got her.

I know this is a hard subject to bring up without starting the
whole cruelty thread again so I'll state my opinion once and
won't defend it further: any method can be cruel for some
dogs.

Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at the
beginning, but we've come a long way since then. She trusts
us now as I mentioned in a recent post. Point is, she's been
rewarded for coming, but she's never been punished, even in
the mildest way, for not coming.

Is it time for that?

What might I look for to tell?

Last night we had friends over for dinner with their 3
daughters ages 14, 10 and 7. The girls loved Cubbe and were
having a blast clicker training her. I was impressed with how
quickly they caught on and how little correction they needed
to be consistent with the clicks and treats. Cubbe was fine
with the children; she always has been. Just as they were
getting ready to go, the 10 year old went to give Cubbe a hug.
Cubbe must have felt threatened and confined because she gave a
snarl-snap.

I was right there, and without thinking I quickly yelled,
turned Cubbe over on her back, got in the face and let her
know that no snarling is allowed. The girl wasn't frightened
at all, and her parents who were also right there hadn't
realized what had happened. I then asked the snarlee to rub
Cubbe's belly further to reinforce that Cubbe is the
submissive one in that relationship. I let Cubbe up and all
was fine.

I suppose that's another issue, but I bring it up as part of
wondering if Cubbe should be trained with punishments now.
Like I said, I did that without thinking, and now I think it
was the right thing to do. So how do I apply this to dealing
with Cubbe the escapee?

--Lia

===================

"Julia Altshuler" wrote in message
...

I need help deciding if I have a real problem with Cubbe
that needs immediate attention or if I'm imagining trouble
where there is none.

Here's what happened last April the way I described it to
a friend at the time:

I'm worried about Cubbe. Or rather, I'm kicking myself for
doing something stupid. Ellie has been over many times and
has always gotten along great with Cubbe. Cubbe is always
at the door when I let Ellie in.

She's barky-protective but then stops barking once Ellie is
inside. She's never shown any real aggression. The other
night Ellie and I went out together to run an errand.

Ellie was coming in the house with packages so I came in
first and put Cubbe in the bedroom with Jim so Ellie could
get through the door more easily. I could hear Cubbe
barking. Once Ellie was inside, I opened the bedroom door
for Cubbe. She ran out to attack the intruder. Ellie was
trying to be friendly.

Ellie put a tooth in Ellie's finger. Granted the resulting
scratch was no worse than the way my cuticles bleed when
they get dry and I don't rub lotion into them every night,
but Ellie was understandably scared.

Jim ran out and got control of Cubbe right away. I got
Ellie some alcohol and a bandage. The scary thing is that,
even though the damage is minor, it does qualify as a bite
since Cubbe did mean to do it. I guess I should just learn
from it and never let Cubbe greet someone like that again,
but I'm horribly torn up.

I've said that I would never keep an aggressive dog. Now
the whole issue is so complicated. Cubbe is great even
with kids when we meet them in the neighborhood.

Since then I've been careful not to do anything like that.

Then Halloween night Cubbe spent most of the night in the
computer room with Jim while I answered the door. She did
bark each time she heard the doorbell ring. We did nothing
to discourage that. We want her to be barky protective so
it made sense for her to bark when she heard people in the
neighborhood, especially at night. Later in the evening,
Jim put Cubbe on a leash and was hanging out with her in the
front hall while I still got the door. One of the first
people to come to the door once she was out of the computer
room was our neighbor Nicky.

I think Nicky is 11 now. He's known Cubbe since we got her
4 years ago, has always liked her, petted her and asked to
come on walks. Nick lifted his mask on the porch so I'd
know who it was. Then I invited him into the hall to pet
Cubbe.

Cubbe snarled and sort of air snapped at him. Of course
Jim was right there so no damage was done. Nick didn't
even have to draw his hand away, and he didn't get scared.
Nothing scares that boy.

I don't like this. Twice now Cubbe has been overly
protective-aggressive when people have entered the house.
Both times they've been people she knows and should like.
She's wonderfully nice to people on walks. We don't have
guests over too often so I can't comment if it's a growing
thing or not.

Comments please. Is this a major growing aggression
problem?

I'd guess it's territoriality about the house and yard.
What do I do about it?

I usually put Cubbe on a leash when friends come over
and then walk her outside while the friend gets out of
her car, and then we walk in together.

She'll still bark when they're in the house and then
calm down. Is that a good idea? Should I be
doing something more to make sure this doesn't escalate?
--Lia

=============