dstvns wrote:

On a 3,000-4,000cal diet, you'll need to eat approximately 12 pounds
of potatoes per day just to maintain your body weight. Add in the
artichokes, if they're of a comparable cal level as the taters, and
you got just over two days of food before you start starving.

Who the hell eats 4 thousand calories a day? A thanksgiving dinner is
2000. Are you going on personal experience with calorie intake? I
would hate to have you as a dependent.

When I worked my dads farm, I would eat upwards of 6,000/day,
depending on how much work there was being done.

The number I recall for the Lumberjacks of past years was more like
12-15,000 (hard work, and in cold weather).

--
Charles Scripter * Use this address to reply: cescript at progworks dot net
When encryption is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir rapelcgvba.
Note: my responses may be slow due to ISP/newsgroup issues

Richard A. Lewis wrote:

food that they lose much of their advantage. One can easily say "I'll
simply eat three loaves of bread a day" and it sounds logical....but
that would be dismissing the 600 cals per loaf work that it took to
get that bread to your table.

No it doesn't, Richard. That 600 calories was part of the 3000/day
you're spending producing the food. As long as I don't spend 3100
calories in collecting 3000 calories worth of food, it'll be fine...

In fact, you wouldn't need the normal 2000/day, if you were working.
Right now people eat 2000/day, work, and harvest enough green (money)
to more than cover the cost of those 2000 calories. It's the same in
a farm setting, just the caloric intake will be higher, and the work
will be harder, longer and dirtier.

The reason we know it can be done, is that it has been done (poor,
ragged farmers are nothing new). Plowing fields with mules, horses,
cows, or even by hand...and yet our ancestors somehow survived...

Self-sufficiency *sounds* easy....but in reality, our ancestors, who
had far more experience at it than we do, tended to starve to death on
a regular basis.

Certainly. A bout of bad, uncooperative weather and you lose this
years crop (that even happens today, with our superior science).

Nobody said that there were any guarantees...

--
Charles Scripter * Use this address to reply: cescript at progworks dot net
When encryption is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir rapelcgvba.
Note: my responses may be slow due to ISP/newsgroup issues

"rick etter" wrote in message There is only
one essential nutrient that is not commonly found in
plant foods, and that is vitamin B12.

It's in some types of seaweed, I believe.
===================
You'd find analogs of b12 with only mask the absorbtion any any real b12
you
might find. You could of course just not wash your veggies, or your hands
as either could then supply your b12 needs.


=
"...Seaweed and soy products do not contain significant levels of active
B12
despite the claims made for such products. The basis for the erroneous
claims stems from the fact that the method that is often used to measure
B12
does not distinguish between the active and inactive forms of the
vitamin..."
http://www.nadadventist.org/hm/gcnc/vitb12/vitb12.html


For an interesting discussion of Vitamin B12, why we have a need for it, and
why vegetarian primates also have a need for it, the following website is
available. It speculates that "accidental" ingestion of insects found on
plant material probably provide the main source for most primates, as well
as certain fermentation bacteria.
http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/...-anat-7a.shtml

(Tallgrass) wrote in message om...
"PMS" in the know wrote in message ...
"simy1" wrote in message
om...

Organic matter is not fertilizer, although it can usually be made
into such. Any true fertilizer must necessarily be inorganic.

???HUH??????

Linda H.

Oh, Linda, don't talk about it. The ignorance of these misc.* types is
staggering. Probably they got into survivalism because they can't get
a job at McDonald. Their view of the world barely extends out to their
county line. Here is a collection of their pearls:

- we need many acres per person (A/P) to feed ourselves. The Dutch
(who have a whopping 0.8A/P in the whole country, of which 24% is
cultivated, totaling 0.19A/P) feed themselves, and vegans, they ain't
(not to mention, ob:rg mention, that they are the world's largest
flower exporter, which means a good part of the land if for cash crops
- and much of the land is for animal feed anyway). But wait, it gets
worse. In Egypt they have some 0.07 A/P of arable land, and they still
manage to live. Mechanized, they ain't, unless one counts donkeys.

- mechanization is fundamental for high yields (these are guys who
want to survive on their couch)

- we need petroleum to make fertilizer, and all fertilizer is
inorganic. They do not understand that one acre of soybeans fixes 4
50lb bags of urea (more if the straw is plowed under), which is a huge
amount (tired of soybeans? try favas). Also, a fertilizer complete in
everything else except P and S comes out of their survivalist wood
stoves in huge amounts, certainly in quantities suitable for
fertilization of a few acres every winter (it is called wood ash, and
has K as well as all micronutrients).

- big problems with fat. Given that a optimal ratio is 20% by
calories, there are many staples (including oats, 20%, white acorns,
20%, chickpeas, 22%, soybeans, 34%) which have more fat than is
needed. Even in temperate/cold zones, there are several abundant
producers of high fat foods (including walnuts, 92%, pumpkin or squash
seeds, 80%, and hazelnuts, 90% fat), without even growing a crop for
the purpose of getting fat.

- big problems with proteins. The protein profile of oats is better
than that of meat. Obviously, in a survival mode one would gravitate
towards these foods...

- big problems with winter vitamins. A single plant of pumpkins (make
that Hubbard squash if taste is important, though these are funny
survivalists) will provide enough vit. A for a whole winter, one
person (and enough Vit. C to prevent scurvy). Also, only known winter
vegetables are beans and cabbage (but not the chinese ones, which last
through the winter...). The San Diego zoo just gives sprouted seeds to
most animals, as vitamin supplements to keep them healthy, but
apparently survivalists will not eat that stuff.

now they are getting into B-12.....

"Fran" wrote in message . au...

I hate houses that only have a front and a back door - too claustrophobic
for me. I hate being confined by bad weather (too hot, too cold too wet)
and get outside as often as I can.

And what part of the world enables you to have this lifestyle?

I may just have to come live there myself!

Linda H.

"Fran" wrote in message . au...

I hate houses that only have a front and a back door - too claustrophobic
for me. I hate being confined by bad weather (too hot, too cold too wet)
and get outside as often as I can.

And what part of the world enables you to have this lifestyle?

I may just have to come live there myself!

Linda H.

charles krin wrote in message . ..
On 15 Dec 2003 14:50:55 -0800,
(Tallgrass) wrote:

It comes down to the biochemistry of the carbon bonds in vegetable
fats vs. those in animal fats. The animal fats are saturated
fats...two bonds between the carbon atoms. The vegetable fats are
often Unsaturated fats...one bond between the carbon atoms.
Breaking/metabolising the bonds produces energy; More bonds means more
energy to release per quantity of fat. Saturated fats have more
energy/calories than unsaturated fats.

ooops...you got it exactly backwards here...UNsaturated fats have two
bonds between two carbons in at least one place on the chain, and
Saturated fats only have one bond between all the carbons...they are
"Saturated" with hydrogen.

The energy released from both types of fats is grossly the same (9
Calories per gram), but certain types of unsaturated fats are not
produced by the human body but are needed in the diet to stay healthy.

ck (a DO physician, not an MD)

yep. mea culpa. I do not profess to be a biochemist, obviously.

Too many years between me and the chem lab, I guess.

Linda H.

(Richard A. Lewis) wrote in message ink.net...

You're absolutely right, Robert. Domestication of animals was what
began the road towards civilization, not the planting of crops as
quite a few folks still believe. When mankind found out that he could
grow rabbits in a pen, he was able to eventually break the
"hunter/gatherer" cycle that had continually forced him to move on.
ral

This is only true where the soil can hold up to year after year of
cultivation.

It is my understanding that this is *one* of the factors leading to
the loss of rainforest.....that the soil is too shallow, too poor in
nutrients, to sustain the agricultural endeavors. Once depleted,
people move on. And the forest is gone.

Linda H.

"SkullyWV" wrote in message ...
Exactly 19 acres...
We have 19 acres of vineyard and we never run out of wine.
Skully

hhhmmmm....don't ever let anyone check your B12 and folate levels, then!!!

Linda H.

On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 22:34:12 -0600, "Bob Peterson"
wrote:


"North" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 14:11:23 -0600, "Bob Peterson"
As for food, you really need reliable sources of protein. meat protein is
the best (although vegans may argue with you on that).
Well, I'm not a vegan, but as a vegetarian I definitely disagree with
that. to produce meat, you have to feed the animal in question. Put
that food into yourself and you get far more efficient use out of it.
Soybeans are the closest vegetable to complete protein (actually
missing one amino acid, but it can be produced in you body from two
others), but any beans with grain (presumably bought or bartered,
unless this guy is a machine) can do as well.

k
For more info about the International Society of Arboriculture, please visit http://www.isa-arbor.com/home.asp.
For consumer info about tree care, visit http://www.treesaregood.com/

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 18:34:33 -0600, "Bob Peterson"
wrote:


there really is no such thing as a balanced veg only diet.


Whaaa???!!! surely you troll . . . .

k
For more info about the International Society of Arboriculture, please visit http://www.isa-arbor.com/home.asp.
For consumer info about tree care, visit http://www.treesaregood.com/

(simy1) wrote in message m...
(Tallgrass) wrote in message om...
"PMS" in the know wrote in message ...
"simy1" wrote in message
om...

Organic matter is not fertilizer, although it can usually be made
into such. Any true fertilizer must necessarily be inorganic.

???HUH??????

Linda H.

Oh, Linda, don't talk about it. The ignorance of these misc.* types is
staggering. Probably they got into survivalism because they can't get
a job at McDonald. Their view of the world barely extends out to their
county line. Here is a collection of their pearls:

- we need many acres per person (A/P) to feed ourselves. The Dutch
(who have a whopping 0.8A/P in the whole country, of which 24% is
cultivated, totaling 0.19A/P) feed themselves, and vegans, they ain't
(not to mention, ob:rg mention, that they are the world's largest
flower exporter, which means a good part of the land if for cash crops
- and much of the land is for animal feed anyway). But wait, it gets
worse. In Egypt they have some 0.07 A/P of arable land, and they still
manage to live. Mechanized, they ain't, unless one counts donkeys.

- mechanization is fundamental for high yields (these are guys who
want to survive on their couch)

- we need petroleum to make fertilizer, and all fertilizer is
inorganic. They do not understand that one acre of soybeans fixes 4
50lb bags of urea (more if the straw is plowed under), which is a huge
amount (tired of soybeans? try favas). Also, a fertilizer complete in
everything else except P and S comes out of their survivalist wood
stoves in huge amounts, certainly in quantities suitable for
fertilization of a few acres every winter (it is called wood ash, and
has K as well as all micronutrients).

- big problems with fat. Given that a optimal ratio is 20% by
calories, there are many staples (including oats, 20%, white acorns,
20%, chickpeas, 22%, soybeans, 34%) which have more fat than is
needed. Even in temperate/cold zones, there are several abundant
producers of high fat foods (including walnuts, 92%, pumpkin or squash
seeds, 80%, and hazelnuts, 90% fat), without even growing a crop for
the purpose of getting fat.

- big problems with proteins. The protein profile of oats is better
than that of meat. Obviously, in a survival mode one would gravitate
towards these foods...

- big problems with winter vitamins. A single plant of pumpkins (make
that Hubbard squash if taste is important, though these are funny
survivalists) will provide enough vit. A for a whole winter, one
person (and enough Vit. C to prevent scurvy). Also, only known winter
vegetables are beans and cabbage (but not the chinese ones, which last
through the winter...). The San Diego zoo just gives sprouted seeds to
most animals, as vitamin supplements to keep them healthy, but
apparently survivalists will not eat that stuff.

now they are getting into B-12.....

At the opportunity to split hairs (?hares)....I am interpreting that
you are referring to fertilizer as those elements (periodic table
elements) that a particular tillable plot may be lacking.

Perhaps what I am thinking of is better termed 'soil amendments', a
gamish of elements. Compost, manures, ash, fish "haids", etc.

And after rereading your post, I am now confused!

White acorns, eh? As in White Oak? I have yet to find an acorn that
has tasted anything but bitter (unless we consider filberts...?).

ttfn....
Linda H.

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 06:26:47 -0500, "rick etter"
wrote:


LOL Than it's not vegan, is it? b12 does not come in unfortified veggies.
This fortification is yet another level of production that violates the
stated claims of vegans. Of course, those claims are just lys and delusions
anyway, as far as 'vegans' here on usenet are concerned. B12 is available
to vegans to the extent that you don't wash your veggies, or you don't wash
your hands. The statement stands, no vegan diet is balanced.
From "Vegan Nutrition: Pure and Simple" by Michael Klaper, M.D. (no
doubt a lefty):

"Much unnecessary worry has been generated over 'getting
enough B-12.' Necessary for development of blood and healthy nerve
function, Vitamin B-12 is made only by bacteria. These bacteria are
common soil organisms, and thus B-12 is found on the surface of
garden-fresh vegetables (washed, but eaten uncooked), in some drinking
water, in fermented foods like tempeh . . . nutritional yeast, and in
our own mouths and intestines.
"Consequently, clinical problems from B-12 deficiency are
extremely rare in vegans. Medical studies by the British
hemotologist, Dr. Frey Ellis, and Dr. T.A.B. Sanders showed most
vegans to have generous levels of B-12, even though B-12 supplement
tablets were not used.
"Most of the concerns over Vitamin B-12 adequacy in the vegan
diet seem to be more theoretical than real, and most vegan people seem
to grow and function very well without ever taking a B-12 supplement.
However, there have been scattered reports of adult vegans with anemia
and nerve irritation that did respond to Vitamin B-12. As well, a
recent study of teh nutritional status of vegans showed the serum
levels of B-12 bordered on amounts that could be inadequate in some
people."

He goes on to point out that modern sanitary practices in food
production kill the bacteria, and therefore suggests supplements or
fortified foods. Since a self-sufficient farm would likely not employ
the extreme sanitation of commercial kitchens, I suspect a vegan diet
would provide plenty of B-12. But if the OP was worried, he could use
his internet connection and funds from his job to buy some.

K

For more info about the International Society of Arboriculture, please visit http://www.isa-arbor.com/home.asp.
For consumer info about tree care, visit http://www.treesaregood.com/

Acorns are not, in my opinion, a taste treat.

But properly prepared they are edible and not too bad.

Depending on the variety of acorn (some are much worse than others)
you need to put in a step or two or three to leech the tannin out of
the acorn. This seems to be best done after pounding the nut to mush
and then repeatedly leeching the meal.

The hungrier you are, the better the "bread" made from acorns tastes.


On 18 Dec 2003 13:24:28 -0800,
(Tallgrass) wrote:

(simy1) wrote in message m...
(Tallgrass) wrote in message om...
"PMS" in the know wrote in message ...
"simy1" wrote in message
om...

Organic matter is not fertilizer, although it can usually be made
into such. Any true fertilizer must necessarily be inorganic.

???HUH??????

Linda H.

Oh, Linda, don't talk about it. The ignorance of these misc.* types is
staggering. Probably they got into survivalism because they can't get
a job at McDonald. Their view of the world barely extends out to their
county line. Here is a collection of their pearls:

- we need many acres per person (A/P) to feed ourselves. The Dutch
(who have a whopping 0.8A/P in the whole country, of which 24% is
cultivated, totaling 0.19A/P) feed themselves, and vegans, they ain't
(not to mention, ob:rg mention, that they are the world's largest
flower exporter, which means a good part of the land if for cash crops
- and much of the land is for animal feed anyway). But wait, it gets
worse. In Egypt they have some 0.07 A/P of arable land, and they still
manage to live. Mechanized, they ain't, unless one counts donkeys.

- mechanization is fundamental for high yields (these are guys who
want to survive on their couch)

- we need petroleum to make fertilizer, and all fertilizer is
inorganic. They do not understand that one acre of soybeans fixes 4
50lb bags of urea (more if the straw is plowed under), which is a huge
amount (tired of soybeans? try favas). Also, a fertilizer complete in
everything else except P and S comes out of their survivalist wood
stoves in huge amounts, certainly in quantities suitable for
fertilization of a few acres every winter (it is called wood ash, and
has K as well as all micronutrients).

- big problems with fat. Given that a optimal ratio is 20% by
calories, there are many staples (including oats, 20%, white acorns,
20%, chickpeas, 22%, soybeans, 34%) which have more fat than is
needed. Even in temperate/cold zones, there are several abundant
producers of high fat foods (including walnuts, 92%, pumpkin or squash
seeds, 80%, and hazelnuts, 90% fat), without even growing a crop for
the purpose of getting fat.

- big problems with proteins. The protein profile of oats is better
than that of meat. Obviously, in a survival mode one would gravitate
towards these foods...

- big problems with winter vitamins. A single plant of pumpkins (make
that Hubbard squash if taste is important, though these are funny
survivalists) will provide enough vit. A for a whole winter, one
person (and enough Vit. C to prevent scurvy). Also, only known winter
vegetables are beans and cabbage (but not the chinese ones, which last
through the winter...). The San Diego zoo just gives sprouted seeds to
most animals, as vitamin supplements to keep them healthy, but
apparently survivalists will not eat that stuff.

now they are getting into B-12.....

At the opportunity to split hairs (?hares)....I am interpreting that
you are referring to fertilizer as those elements (periodic table
elements) that a particular tillable plot may be lacking.

Perhaps what I am thinking of is better termed 'soil amendments', a
gamish of elements. Compost, manures, ash, fish "haids", etc.

And after rereading your post, I am now confused!

White acorns, eh? As in White Oak? I have yet to find an acorn that
has tasted anything but bitter (unless we consider filberts...?).

ttfn....
Linda H.

"Babberney" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 06:26:47 -0500, "rick etter"
wrote:


LOL Than it's not vegan, is it? b12 does not come in unfortified
veggies.
This fortification is yet another level of production that violates the
stated claims of vegans. Of course, those claims are just lys and
delusions
anyway, as far as 'vegans' here on usenet are concerned. B12 is
available
to vegans to the extent that you don't wash your veggies, or you don't
wash
your hands. The statement stands, no vegan diet is balanced.
From "Vegan Nutrition: Pure and Simple" by Michael Klaper, M.D. (no
doubt a lefty):

"Much unnecessary worry has been generated over 'getting
enough B-12.' Necessary for development of blood and healthy nerve
function, Vitamin B-12 is made only by bacteria. These bacteria are
common soil organisms, and thus B-12 is found on the surface of
garden-fresh vegetables (washed, but eaten uncooked), in some drinking
water, in fermented foods like tempeh . . . nutritional yeast, and in
our own mouths and intestines.
"Consequently, clinical problems from B-12 deficiency are
extremely rare in vegans. Medical studies by the British
hemotologist, Dr. Frey Ellis, and Dr. T.A.B. Sanders showed most
vegans to have generous levels of B-12, even though B-12 supplement
tablets were not used.
"Most of the concerns over Vitamin B-12 adequacy in the vegan
diet seem to be more theoretical than real, and most vegan people seem
to grow and function very well without ever taking a B-12 supplement.
However, there have been scattered reports of adult vegans with anemia
and nerve irritation that did respond to Vitamin B-12. As well, a
recent study of teh nutritional status of vegans showed the serum
levels of B-12 bordered on amounts that could be inadequate in some
people."

He goes on to point out that modern sanitary practices in food
production kill the bacteria, and therefore suggests supplements or
fortified foods.
=====================
And I doubt those suppliments and fortified foods are made without any
impact on animals. Therefore, not realy vegan, are they, just like I said?


Since a self-sufficient farm would likely not employ
the extreme sanitation of commercial kitchens, I suspect a vegan diet
would provide plenty of B-12.
============================
So would not washing the crap off your hands. That's a quick easy way to
get it.

But if the OP was worried, he could use
his internet connection and funds from his job to buy some.

K

For more info about the International Society of Arboriculture, please
visit http://www.isa-arbor.com/home.asp.
For consumer info about tree care, visit http://www.treesaregood.com/