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Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
Hi Everybody,
I am working on long-term plans for self-sufficiency, oriented to buying some bare land and building an off-grid house, rainwater catchment, composting toilet, etc, etc. One issue is the question of how much physical space would be needed to grow enough food to completely support myself? I am willing to eat anything that is healthy, preferably remaining vegetarian (although I am quite willing to have chickens for eggs, and perhaps a goat for milk.) This would involve one person living alone, in decent physical condition, willing to do hard work and learn whatever is needed. I realise that the yearly food yield will have to be spread out via preserving, canning, etc. My "day job" can be done remotely, via wireless Internet connection, with flexible hours, thus leaving time and opportunity for extensive gardening/farming, etc. I do understand the risk of, for example, having a bad year, bad weather, etc, and so would have money set aside to buy food in that case. But the plan is to avoid that if at all possible. I live in New Zealand, with plenty of rain in winter, but also reasonable sunshine in summer. So... How many acres of flat, farm-able land will I need? Thanks in advance! -V. -- Guide To DIY Living http://www.self-reliance.co.nz (Work in progress) |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
In misc.survivalism Down Under On The Bucket Farm wrote:
Hi Everybody, I am working on long-term plans for self-sufficiency, oriented to buying some bare land and building an off-grid house, rainwater catchment, composting toilet, etc, etc. One issue is the question of how much physical space would be needed to grow enough food to completely support myself? The answer kind of depends if you'r in the middle of the Amazon, Antarctica, or Austria. |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 06:56:32 -0800, Down Under On The Bucket Farm wrote:
Hi Everybody, I am working on long-term plans for self-sufficiency, oriented to buying some bare land and building an off-grid house, rainwater catchment, composting toilet, etc, etc. ... What do you plan to use for fuel ... for heating, cooking, generator, operating ag equipmnet, and/or etc? |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 06:56:32 -0800, Down Under On The Bucket Farm
said: Hi Everybody, I am working on long-term plans for self-sufficiency, oriented to buying some bare land and building an off-grid house, rainwater catchment, composting toilet, etc, etc. One issue is the question of how much physical space would be needed to grow enough food to completely support myself? I am willing to eat anything that is healthy, preferably remaining vegetarian (although I am quite willing to have chickens for eggs, and perhaps a goat for milk.) This would involve one person living alone, in decent physical condition, willing to do hard work and learn whatever is needed. I realise that the yearly food yield will have to be spread out via preserving, canning, etc. My "day job" can be done remotely, via wireless Internet connection, with flexible hours, thus leaving time and opportunity for extensive gardening/farming, etc. I do understand the risk of, for example, having a bad year, bad weather, etc, and so would have money set aside to buy food in that case. But the plan is to avoid that if at all possible. I live in New Zealand, with plenty of rain in winter, but also reasonable sunshine in summer. So... How many acres of flat, farm-able land will I need? Thanks in advance! -V. Very little if you plan things just right :-) Google up "Square foot gardening" |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
"Down Under On The Bucket Farm" wrote in message ... Hi Everybody, I am working on long-term plans for self-sufficiency, oriented to buying some bare land and building an off-grid house, rainwater catchment, composting toilet, etc, etc. One issue is the question of how much physical space would be needed to grow enough food to completely support myself? I am willing to eat anything that is healthy, preferably remaining vegetarian (although I am quite willing to have chickens for eggs, and perhaps a goat for milk.) This would involve one person living alone, in decent physical condition, willing to do hard work and learn whatever is needed. I realise that the yearly food yield will have to be spread out via preserving, canning, etc. My "day job" can be done remotely, via wireless Internet connection, with flexible hours, thus leaving time and opportunity for extensive gardening/farming, etc. I do understand the risk of, for example, having a bad year, bad weather, etc, and so would have money set aside to buy food in that case. But the plan is to avoid that if at all possible. I live in New Zealand, with plenty of rain in winter, but also reasonable sunshine in summer. So... How many acres of flat, farm-able land will I need? I'm not sure acreage is necessary. I have a friend who grows all the fruit and produce she needs to support her family on a small urban lot. And she has enough left over to share with a local foodbank. Grains may be more problematical. If you intend to raise grains as well for flour, breads, etc., you may very well need some acreage, as the yields are not as intensive. And any livestock will also need some space. But you should be able to grow as many veggies and fruits as you need in a relatively compact area, specially if you rotate crops through the growing season and have a greenhouse/cold frame to encourage things in cold weather and for early seeding. pam - gardengal |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
Not a question that can be definitively answered on a general basis. There are WAY too many variables. Soil fertility, length of growing season, WHAT crops you are intending to grow, etc. Try getting in touch with whatever the New Zealand government has established to assist gardeners (in the US the Dept. of Agriculture nationally and the states individually have a variety of programs). They also probably have a wealth of free handouts to further help you. I have a daughter in the area of Napier who seems to do well with two season gardening, but not on the scale you are contemplating. On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 06:56:32 -0800, Down Under On The Bucket Farm wrote: Hi Everybody, I am working on long-term plans for self-sufficiency, oriented to buying some bare land and building an off-grid house, rainwater catchment, composting toilet, etc, etc. One issue is the question of how much physical space would be needed to grow enough food to completely support myself? I am willing to eat anything that is healthy, preferably remaining vegetarian (although I am quite willing to have chickens for eggs, and perhaps a goat for milk.) This would involve one person living alone, in decent physical condition, willing to do hard work and learn whatever is needed. I realise that the yearly food yield will have to be spread out via preserving, canning, etc. My "day job" can be done remotely, via wireless Internet connection, with flexible hours, thus leaving time and opportunity for extensive gardening/farming, etc. I do understand the risk of, for example, having a bad year, bad weather, etc, and so would have money set aside to buy food in that case. But the plan is to avoid that if at all possible. I live in New Zealand, with plenty of rain in winter, but also reasonable sunshine in summer. So... How many acres of flat, farm-able land will I need? Thanks in advance! -V. |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
Everything remains very simple to calculate until you bring the goat into
the formula.. While a human can raise his food in a cultivated plot of ground, livestock require acres of vegitation to survive.. We all think of a goat or pig thriving on kitchen scraps. Not nearly enough, especially since you are going to be only one person and living on a vegetarian diet. You most likely will have to purchase feed for a few chickens to be productive. Raising grain requires additional land plus equipment and labor to just raise it for your livestock. Also, just a question. How will you maintain an internet connection if you are off the grid?? Steve |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 06:56:32 -0800, Down Under On The Bucket Farm
wrote: One issue is the question of how much physical space would be needed to grow enough food to completely support myself? Entirely or in part? American pioneers often supplemented their homesteads with things like flour, oil, sugar, and salt. Your posts indicate a beginning gardner. See how much veg you can harvest and preserve this year. What are you willing to give up? Meaningful grain production (and processing) is problematical. Are you prepared to properly care for goats and chickens? Food, shelter, vet issues? A vegetarian diet implies quite a selection of foods. This is also a labor-intensive effort in many ways. 'Spare time' just doesn't cover it. |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
-- Remove "nospam" for e-mail "Down Under On The Bucket Farm" wrote in message ... Hi Everybody, I am working on long-term plans for self-sufficiency, oriented to buying some bare land and building an off-grid house, rainwater catchment, composting toilet, etc, etc. One issue is the question of how much physical space would be needed to grow enough food to completely support myself? Depends on the land's fertility and how much work you're willing to do. I read a pretty good book on the subject that said you could support a family of 4 on 5 acres. My vegetable garden measures about 20 feet by 100 feet and even without "too much" labor we can grow enough lettuce, tomatoes, snow peas, beans, carrots, onions, cauliflower, sweet potatoes, kale, and Swiss chard to eat fresh, can and/or freeze and still have some to give to the neighbors and compost. But the soil has been nurtured almost fanatically for nearly 30 years. |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
When my husband and I were looking into homesteading, we researched rural Texas. The zone
is 8b and we would raise chickens for eggs, and goats for cheese. In season fruits and vegetables and winter crops of many different leafy greens, etc...In other words, continuous produce all year. If we planned to have ten chickens, 8 goats, it was suggested we have at least 5 acres. Preferably with brush and a glen...with water running through the property. We were going to use wind power and solar power with energy stores in banks of batteries designed to use for this process. This is a huge area and there are no certain amounts of land. You may want to see if anyone in your region is homesteading and see if there are any cooperatives among them. That has been a steady component in all the reading I'd done. Victoria On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 06:56:32 -0800, Down Under On The Bucket Farm opined: Hi Everybody, I am working on long-term plans for self-sufficiency, oriented to buying some bare land and building an off-grid house, rainwater catchment, composting toilet, etc, etc. One issue is the question of how much physical space would be needed to grow enough food to completely support myself? I am willing to eat anything that is healthy, preferably remaining vegetarian (although I am quite willing to have chickens for eggs, and perhaps a goat for milk.) This would involve one person living alone, in decent physical condition, willing to do hard work and learn whatever is needed. I realise that the yearly food yield will have to be spread out via preserving, canning, etc. My "day job" can be done remotely, via wireless Internet connection, with flexible hours, thus leaving time and opportunity for extensive gardening/farming, etc. I do understand the risk of, for example, having a bad year, bad weather, etc, and so would have money set aside to buy food in that case. But the plan is to avoid that if at all possible. I live in New Zealand, with plenty of rain in winter, but also reasonable sunshine in summer. So... How many acres of flat, farm-able land will I need? Thanks in advance! -V. |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
There are an awful lot of variable involved here, but in a place like Maine where I am, I've heard you could grow all the wood you would need for heat through the winter on 5 acres. I've also heard you could eat very well if you gardened 5 acres, with a lot of extra to put away or sell for cash. I think I remember Eliot Coleman saying in one of his books you could make a decent living growing on as little as 5 acres. HTH One issue is the question of how much physical space would be needed to grow enough food to completely support myself? |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
Lots of people claim lots of things. I would be inclined to do some
personal research before I would just my life to something I saw in a book. This type of farming is very difficult to sustain and takes a lot of work. You could well be in deep trouble if you were forced to stop work for a week or two due to injury, illness, or some other reason. or what if a storm came through and destroyed your crops? or a horde of grasshoppers? even a herd of deer could decimate your garden very quickly. personally I suspect you can do a lot on 5 good acres with a continuous water source, but I am leery of trusting my life to such a small area. "WCD" wrote in message ... There are an awful lot of variable involved here, but in a place like Maine where I am, I've heard you could grow all the wood you would need for heat through the winter on 5 acres. I've also heard you could eat very well if you gardened 5 acres, with a lot of extra to put away or sell for cash. I think I remember Eliot Coleman saying in one of his books you could make a decent living growing on as little as 5 acres. HTH One issue is the question of how much physical space would be needed to grow enough food to completely support myself? |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 14:33:07 -0500, WCD wrote:
One issue is the question of how much physical space would be needed to grow enough food to completely support myself? There are an awful lot of variable involved here, but in a place like Maine where I am, I've heard you could grow all the wood you would need for heat through the winter on 5 acres. I've also heard you could eat very well if you gardened 5 acres, with a lot of extra to put away or sell for cash. I think I remember Eliot Coleman saying in one of his books you could make a decent living growing on as little as 5 acres. I guess I'm taking "self-sufficiency" too literally. I think it would be virtually impossible for one person or family to be entirely self-sufficient. If you include barter or sale of what you have excess of -- that is, relying on your own land and labor to support you in whatever way practical -- that's a different story. Reductio ad absurdum, one could easily be "self-sufficient" if one had an oil well in the back yard. L-) I expect one could grow enough veg so as not to have to purchase any extra. But even a vegetarian can't live on canned tomatoes and green beans alone. The OP mentioned goat(s) and chickens, which means fodder of some sort and grain, and shelter. Experience with a 20'x40' veg plot made me *very* aware of how difficult real farming must be. Between too hot/cold, too much/too little water, diseases, pests, weeds, and inexplicable failures to grow, I'd rather not depend on my own efforts to sustain me. |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
"Ann" wrote in message ...
On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 06:56:32 -0800, Down Under On The Bucket Farm wrote: Hi Everybody, I am working on long-term plans for self-sufficiency, oriented to buying some bare land and building an off-grid house, rainwater catchment, composting toilet, etc, etc. ... What do you plan to use for fuel ... for heating, cooking, generator, operating ag equipmnet, and/or etc? A well managed farm will support one person on 1/6 of an acre - but those are numbers for grains/soybeans only, and a vegetarian person. If you have farm animals, fruit trees, veggie patch, unfertile soil, watering problems, your needs will rise accordingly. If you want to be self-sufficient, there are a number of permaculture solutions that may help you save labor. Amongst them is having oaks or chestnuts to limit your need to grow grains. And use favas in the cold season for extra bulk food plus fertilizing. |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
I would also plan on a green house of some size as well, maybe not the
biodome :), but a large functional one where you hve some environmental control "simy1" wrote in message om... "Ann" wrote in message ... On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 06:56:32 -0800, Down Under On The Bucket Farm wrote: Hi Everybody, I am working on long-term plans for self-sufficiency, oriented to buying some bare land and building an off-grid house, rainwater catchment, composting toilet, etc, etc. ... What do you plan to use for fuel ... for heating, cooking, generator, operating ag equipmnet, and/or etc? A well managed farm will support one person on 1/6 of an acre - but those are numbers for grains/soybeans only, and a vegetarian person. If you have farm animals, fruit trees, veggie patch, unfertile soil, watering problems, your needs will rise accordingly. If you want to be self-sufficient, there are a number of permaculture solutions that may help you save labor. Amongst them is having oaks or chestnuts to limit your need to grow grains. And use favas in the cold season for extra bulk food plus fertilizing. |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
"Steven Toney" wrote in message om... I would also plan on a green house of some size as well, maybe not the biodome :), but a large functional one where you hve some environmental control Excellent idea. Without such you will be subject to seasonal feast/famine even with good preserving techniques. David |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
I would also plan on a green house of some size as well, maybe not the
biodome :), but a large functional one where you hve some environmental control "simy1" wrote in message om... "Ann" wrote in message ... On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 06:56:32 -0800, Down Under On The Bucket Farm wrote: Hi Everybody, I am working on long-term plans for self-sufficiency, oriented to buying some bare land and building an off-grid house, rainwater catchment, composting toilet, etc, etc. ... What do you plan to use for fuel ... for heating, cooking, generator, operating ag equipmnet, and/or etc? A well managed farm will support one person on 1/6 of an acre - but those are numbers for grains/soybeans only, and a vegetarian person. If you have farm animals, fruit trees, veggie patch, unfertile soil, watering problems, your needs will rise accordingly. If you want to be self-sufficient, there are a number of permaculture solutions that may help you save labor. Amongst them is having oaks or chestnuts to limit your need to grow grains. And use favas in the cold season for extra bulk food plus fertilizing. |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
"Steven Toney" wrote in message om... I would also plan on a green house of some size as well, maybe not the biodome :), but a large functional one where you hve some environmental control Excellent idea. Without such you will be subject to seasonal feast/famine even with good preserving techniques. David |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
|
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
"Steve" wrote in message ...
Everything remains very simple to calculate until you bring the goat into the formula. Ya. True to a certain extent. The Chinese say they can raise enuf veggies to feed one person on 1 acre of land. The Chinese diet is primarily vegetables, with smaller amounts of meat and grain. These low tech diets supplement the vegetables primarily with pork and duck as their main type of meat. While a human can raise his food in a cultivated plot of ground, livestock require acres of vegitation to survive.. We all think of a goat or pig thriving on kitchen scraps. Not nearly enough, especially since you are going to be only one person and living on a vegetarian diet. Actually, I believe the best diet in the world is eaten by Asians and Polynesians. They do raise their own vegetables, the scraps are fed to pigs. These pigs in turn also get sustainance from the jungles and riverbanks. When the pigs are of the correct size they're butchered. Pig scraps in turn get fed to other pigs and poultry. Most low tech people live in families, tribes, communities. They don't isolate themselves as westerners do. The very idea of one single person providing for ALL their own needs would not even compute. Because of trade, people can have foods of various kinds, so one person doesn't have to do EVERYTHING. A pig would be chopped up, and sections traded for other things. If someone lives in a developed area, they can also take unwanted animals which they do not have to raise themselves. Or...they can trade. You most likely will have to purchase feed for a few chickens OR the person can trade a chicken dinner, or a few chickens for grain. to be productive. Raising grain requires additional land plus equipment and labor to just raise it for your livestock. Also, just a question. How will you maintain an internet connection if you are off the grid?? Steve |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
1.5 acres if you like potatoes. Hope you have better luck than the Irish.
Ian Stirling wrote in message ... In misc.survivalism Down Under On The Bucket Farm wrote: Hi Everybody, I am working on long-term plans for self-sufficiency, oriented to buying some bare land and building an off-grid house, rainwater catchment, composting toilet, etc, etc. One issue is the question of how much physical space would be needed to grow enough food to completely support myself? The answer kind of depends if you'r in the middle of the Amazon, Antarctica, or Austria. |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
".......I am working on long-term plans for self-sufficiency, oriented to
buying some bare land and building an off-grid house, rainwater catchment, composting toilet, etc, etc ......." If you put up a couple of poly tunnels, then catch the water from them and your dwelling into a quarter acre lake you could also keep yourself in fish. But really this question is like "How long is a piece of string?" I would get as much land as you can afford then you can develop as much as you find you need. You say on your own, but things could change and you might want to support more than just yourself, so spare land would be useful. If you have no other use for it then graze an animal or two for sale to give useful cash. Remember for meat it is more sensible to keep things like poultry and rabbits than larger animals as they are table ready in weeks rather than months or even years. -- David Hill Abacus nurseries www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk ***2004 catalogue now available*** |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 14:11:23 -0600, "Bob Peterson"
said: Lots of people claim lots of things. I would be inclined to do some personal research before I would just my life to something I saw in a book. This type of farming is very difficult to sustain and takes a lot of work. You could well be in deep trouble if you were forced to stop work for a week or two due to injury, illness, or some other reason. or what if a storm came through and destroyed your crops? or a horde of grasshoppers? even a herd of deer could decimate your garden very quickly. personally I suspect you can do a lot on 5 good acres with a continuous water source, but I am leery of trusting my life to such a small area. I remember an old saying "Which can you spare more of ? Back or Brians ? " I use the raised bed method of gardening. My total garden size is less than 1/4 acres and I trow away 3 times as much food as my family (5 in all) eat in a years time from this garden. Its a lot of work keeping the soil good. Chicken wire and 2x4 frames keep the deer and harsh rains from destorying the garden. A small green house gives me a big jump on the growing season. Of course this is only a veggie garden, I would need far more land to grow grain. BTW, for my familys needs, its by far cheaper for me to buy or barter grain than it is to grow it. |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 06:56:32 -0800, Down Under On The Bucket Farm
wrote: So... How many acres of flat, farm-able land will I need? I don't know, but I grew a years worth of garlic (fresh) and tomatoes (canned) on about 400 square feet (0.009 acres?) of composted and mulched soil this past year. My limitation is sun, due to so many trees nearby. But I would definetly believe the figures that it doesn't take a whole lot of land to live well. At 2 dollars per pound for tomatoes at the store, we racked in a couple hundred dollars worth...it was a good tomato year in the east. Weather and access to water is also another variable in acreage numbers. A greenhouse or sunroom will also do wonders in lengthening the season. Dan nw NJ |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
"North" wrote in message ... On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 14:11:23 -0600, "Bob Peterson" said: Lots of people claim lots of things. I would be inclined to do some personal research before I would just my life to something I saw in a book. This type of farming is very difficult to sustain and takes a lot of work. You could well be in deep trouble if you were forced to stop work for a week or two due to injury, illness, or some other reason. or what if a storm came through and destroyed your crops? or a horde of grasshoppers? even a herd of deer could decimate your garden very quickly. personally I suspect you can do a lot on 5 good acres with a continuous water source, but I am leery of trusting my life to such a small area. I remember an old saying "Which can you spare more of ? Back or Brians ? " I use the raised bed method of gardening. My total garden size is less than 1/4 acres and I trow away 3 times as much food as my family (5 in all) eat in a years time from this garden. Its a lot of work keeping the soil good. Chicken wire and 2x4 frames keep the deer and harsh rains from destorying the garden. A small green house gives me a big jump on the growing season. Of course this is only a veggie garden, I would need far more land to grow grain. BTW, for my familys needs, its by far cheaper for me to buy or barter grain than it is to grow it. You can grow a lot of veggies in a small garden, but veggies are not really the bulk of anyone's diet (or at least should not be). The OP was talking about going off in the middle of nowhere and relying entirely on his plot of land for all his needs. First off, its pretty silly as you will not be able to grow/make a lot of things you will need (like clothing, drugs, glassware, tools, etc, etc, etc...). These are things you will either have to stockpile or trade with someone who can make them for you. As for food, you really need reliable sources of protein. meat protein is the best (although vegans may argue with you on that). Poultry and their eggs, fish, and wild game are probably the most cost effective way to get your protein. But you have to feed the captive critters and free ranging it probably is not the answer. So you will need something to feed your chickens (insert rabbits, goats, turkeys, whatever your favorite critter to eat is). You either have to grow that or acquire it from someone else. Growing grain is not trivial on such a small scale, in many ways its much easier on a harge scale.. The scale is so small, mechanization is impractical, so you are forced to work 15 hours a day to bring in a small grain crop to feed the critters. You can also divert some of that to your own uses, but then you have to grow even more. The point I was trying to get through (and probably failed) was that the more skills you have to have the less likely you are to be competent in any of them. Intensive gardening is something I have a little experience with and its something you spend a lot of time and effort on to grow enough food to be useful. And if you have to skip as short a period of time as even a week of tending to your crops, you may never catch up. Before I would trust my life to such a scheme, i would want to do some personal research - like planting a small scale intensive garden and keeping track of just how much work it is, and how much food was gleaned from it. Keep in mind that in the scenario you envision you will need to work with non-hybrid seeds which have a lot of disadvantages compared to hyrbid seeds. You will need to learnt te difference and how to save seeds for the next crop. This in itself can be a lot of work. I have tried this as well - and trust me the few dollars saved on seeds is not worth it, unless of course you have no alternative. :-) BTW - 1/4 acre sounds like a small plot, but its a huge amount of work. Its about 1/4 the size of the garden we planted every summer when I was a kid. We probably spent a total of 20-40 hours a week keeping it up. |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 22:34:12 -0600, "Bob Peterson"
said: "North" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 14:11:23 -0600, "Bob Peterson" said: Lots of people claim lots of things. I would be inclined to do some personal research before I would just my life to something I saw in a book. This type of farming is very difficult to sustain and takes a lot of work. You could well be in deep trouble if you were forced to stop work for a week or two due to injury, illness, or some other reason. or what if a storm came through and destroyed your crops? or a horde of grasshoppers? even a herd of deer could decimate your garden very quickly. personally I suspect you can do a lot on 5 good acres with a continuous water source, but I am leery of trusting my life to such a small area. I remember an old saying "Which can you spare more of ? Back or Brians ? " I use the raised bed method of gardening. My total garden size is less than 1/4 acres and I trow away 3 times as much food as my family (5 in all) eat in a years time from this garden. Its a lot of work keeping the soil good. Chicken wire and 2x4 frames keep the deer and harsh rains from destorying the garden. A small green house gives me a big jump on the growing season. Of course this is only a veggie garden, I would need far more land to grow grain. BTW, for my familys needs, its by far cheaper for me to buy or barter grain than it is to grow it. You can grow a lot of veggies in a small garden, but veggies are not really the bulk of anyone's diet (or at least should not be). The OP was talking about going off in the middle of nowhere and relying entirely on his plot of land for all his needs. First off, its pretty silly as you will not be able to grow/make a lot of things you will need (like clothing, drugs, glassware, tools, etc, etc, etc...). These are things you will either have to stockpile or trade with someone who can make them for you. As for food, you really need reliable sources of protein. meat protein is the best (although vegans may argue with you on that). Poultry and their eggs, fish, and wild game are probably the most cost effective way to get your protein. But you have to feed the captive critters and free ranging it probably is not the answer. So you will need something to feed your chickens (insert rabbits, goats, turkeys, whatever your favorite critter to eat is). You either have to grow that or acquire it from someone else. Growing grain is not trivial on such a small scale, in many ways its much easier on a harge scale.. The scale is so small, mechanization is impractical, so you are forced to work 15 hours a day to bring in a small grain crop to feed the critters. You can also divert some of that to your own uses, but then you have to grow even more. The point I was trying to get through (and probably failed) was that the more skills you have to have the less likely you are to be competent in any of them. Intensive gardening is something I have a little experience with and its something you spend a lot of time and effort on to grow enough food to be useful. And if you have to skip as short a period of time as even a week of tending to your crops, you may never catch up. Before I would trust my life to such a scheme, i would want to do some personal research - like planting a small scale intensive garden and keeping track of just how much work it is, and how much food was gleaned from it. Keep in mind that in the scenario you envision you will need to work with non-hybrid seeds which have a lot of disadvantages compared to hyrbid seeds. You will need to learnt te difference and how to save seeds for the next crop. This in itself can be a lot of work. I have tried this as well - and trust me the few dollars saved on seeds is not worth it, unless of course you have no alternative. :-) BTW - 1/4 acre sounds like a small plot, but its a huge amount of work. Its about 1/4 the size of the garden we planted every summer when I was a kid. We probably spent a total of 20-40 hours a week keeping it up. I agree with everything you said. I'm very lucky because my neighbor owns a deer farm. Plenty of deer meat, more than I could ever eat in 10 life times. I have set up an area on my land for wild rabbits to flourish. Its an area with small shrubs and wild carrots. I purposely place brush piles so the rabbits can have a place to hide and live. And it works !! One thing that a lot of folks forget is all the wild food growing. I live in the Patomic highlands of West Virginia, we have 6 inches of snow on the ground. Right now (at 11:45 PM in 15 degree F temps) I can take a 5 gal bucket and within 1 hour I can gather enough greens to eat for a week. They taste like shit, but tabasco sauce helps a lot G In the spring and summer, I can gather the same amount in 5 minutes and its much better tasting. (ya just gotta know what to look for ) There is a lot of edibles growing in winter, they just taste like shit. With that in mind, the best tasting edibles in winter are the things that breath and walk. If you ever get a chance to cook with "Lemon Grass", try larding a rabbit with bacon and lemon grass, Low temp bake for a couple of hours, its heaven. FWIW, Larding is when you cut 1x2 inch cuts all over the rabbit and stuffing the cuts with uncooked bacon or some kind of tasty fat G. |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
Although people have talked about the work, the land, the crops, and maybe
the animals, you really have to think about your caloric needs, and what is practical/possible to grow to supply those. Vegetables are great, (my favorites), but most are low in calories, so they won't supply the energy you need to do the farming. For that you need concentrated sources of carbohydrates. A large quantity of potatoes can be grown on small plots, which is how the Irish survived when most of their most farmable land was owned by the English. When potatoes are your SOLE source of carbohydrates, you are probably talking something like 5 pounds per day....Grains like wheat need a fair amount of land to grow, as only a tiny part of the plant translates into useable food. Most cereal grains, like wheat,corn and oats, need more land, but less intensive cultivation, except at planting and harvest time. (In biblical times, didn't they just scratch the ground and then throw the seed on the field out of bags or something?) Some of the small grains eaten whole, such as quinoa and amaranth, could probably be grown on a much smaller plot and could provide a good carbohydrate alternative to potatoes - as well as adding some needed variety - but only if you like their taste. I think buckwheat can also be grown compactly, as it is not a true grain. Root vegetables such as turnips, parsnips, and rutabagas are also pretty good sources of carbohydrates - and carrots too, if eaten in quantity. Hard winter squash is also a pretty good source of carbohydrates. That might need more land if you are going to plant enough to last through the winter. With a total vegetarian diet, you will also need to think about sources of fat. It would be a good idea to plant a nut tree - however, it might be 15-25 years before you get an impressive crop. Beans, dried peas, and other legumes can supply the majority of protein needs, but again, you have to like them - and you have to have a successful crop. Most people would want to have eggs for an additional protein source, but keeping chickens adds another layer of work to a one-person operation. If you wanted milk, then you are talking about cows and/or goats, which again, add another layer of work - and more land requirements - as well as setting aside some land solely for grazing. In some cultures, certain types of insects are eaten as sources of protein - for example, termites. But that might be hard for a person from Western Cultures to stomach. "Down Under On The Bucket Farm" wrote in message ... Hi Everybody, I am working on long-term plans for self-sufficiency, oriented to buying some bare land and building an off-grid house, rainwater catchment, composting toilet, etc, etc. One issue is the question of how much physical space would be needed to grow enough food to completely support myself? I am willing to eat anything that is healthy, preferably remaining vegetarian (although I am quite willing to have chickens for eggs, and perhaps a goat for milk.) This would involve one person living alone, in decent physical condition, willing to do hard work and learn whatever is needed. I realise that the yearly food yield will have to be spread out via preserving, canning, etc. My "day job" can be done remotely, via wireless Internet connection, with flexible hours, thus leaving time and opportunity for extensive gardening/farming, etc. I do understand the risk of, for example, having a bad year, bad weather, etc, and so would have money set aside to buy food in that case. But the plan is to avoid that if at all possible. I live in New Zealand, with plenty of rain in winter, but also reasonable sunshine in summer. So... How many acres of flat, farm-able land will I need? Thanks in advance! -V. -- Guide To DIY Living http://www.self-reliance.co.nz (Work in progress) |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
I realise that the yearly food yield will have to be spread out via preserving, canning, etc. My "day job" can be done remotely, via wireless Internet connection, with flexible hours, thus leaving time and opportunity for extensive gardening/farming, etc. I get the feeling that the OP here thinks that the gardening and canning and preserving can be done in his spare time while working "flexible hours" or he can work "flexible hours" in his spare time from working at gardening, canning and preserving. I was raise on a subistance farm (actual a regular farm where we raised 90% of what we eat). We didn't have elect. or running water and my father farmed with horses up until the mid '40s. Yes I even went to a one room school house until I went into 5th grade. Ok, my point. It is damn near a full time job to garden on a large scale for full subsistance. My mother and father both worked in the family garden in addition to tilling the soil to produce cash crops. When it came canning time I was weeks of very hard hot work to 'put up' hundreds of quarts or pints of fruits and vegitables. This is serious business since we didn't buy any canned goods. For meat we would butcher one hog for the year and split a beef cow with about 6-8 other families.. Without electricity we were forced to rent a freezer locker in 'the locker plant' in the nearest town.. Chickens are a given on any subsistance farm, mainly for the eggs. The only time we eat chicken was when they would get a little older and stop laying.. By this time they were only suited for broiling or boiling.. Nothing like KFC. Usually we could have chicken a couple times a month.. With out refrig. it was difficult to gather and keep enough eggs to sell commercially. Chicken feed was something that we often had to purchase. Just some of my memories. Steve |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 23:40:59 -0800, "Steve" wrote:
I get the feeling that the OP here thinks that the gardening and canning and preserving can be done in his spare time while working "flexible hours" or he can work "flexible hours" in his spare time from working at gardening, canning and preserving. I was raise on a subistance farm (actual a regular farm where we raised 90% of what we eat). We didn't have elect. or running water and my father farmed with horses up until the mid '40s. Yes I even went to a one room school house until I went into 5th grade. Ok, my point. It is damn near a full time job to garden on a large scale for full subsistance. My mother and father both worked in the family garden in addition to tilling the soil to produce cash crops. When it came canning time I was weeks of very hard hot work to 'put up' hundreds of quarts or pints of fruits and vegitables. This is serious business since we didn't buy any canned goods. For meat we would butcher one hog for the year and split a beef cow with about 6-8 other families.. Without electricity we were forced to rent a freezer locker in 'the locker plant' in the nearest town.. Chickens are a given on any subsistance farm, mainly for the eggs. The only time we eat chicken was when they would get a little older and stop laying.. By this time they were only suited for broiling or boiling.. Nothing like KFC. Usually we could have chicken a couple times a month.. With out refrig. it was difficult to gather and keep enough eggs to sell commercially. Chicken feed was something that we often had to purchase. Just some of my memories. Mine too. About the only things we bought at the store were salt, sugar, baking soda, and coffee. Our way out was to rent enough land to actually make a living at farming, and do all our grocery shopping at the grocery store instead of trying to grow it ourselves. That was a much better use of our time and resources. Eventually, the only things we grew for the table at home were tomatoes. Gary |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
snip Grains are not that difficult, and can be harvested with a hand mower (scythe), and hand winnowed and prepared. 1/4 acre of buckwheat / wheat / other grains will provide enough for a family of four usually when combined with other foods. Here is a good source for grains and other biointensive gardening info / supplies: http://www.bountifulgardens.org/seed...rains-seed.htm l I think five acres would be more than sufficient if you apply permaculture type efforts. Remember one effort / multiple returns is best. Strongly advise at least one acre pond, with running water, or solar well to keep it full. Fish are protean, and can also attract ducks. Consider foraging as addition to farming. Look at Tappan on Survival for some more subsistance farming / foraging ideas. |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
"House Todorovich" wrote in message ... snip Grains are not that difficult, and can be harvested with a hand mower (scythe), and hand winnowed and prepared. 1/4 acre of buckwheat / wheat / other grains will provide enough for a family of four usually when combined with other foods. Ever actually done this? or is this just an 'educated guess"? Here is a good source for grains and other biointensive gardening info / supplies: http://www.bountifulgardens.org/seed...rains-seed.htm l I think five acres would be more than sufficient if you apply permaculture type efforts. Remember one effort / multiple returns is best. Strongly advise at least one acre pond, with running water, or solar well to keep it full. Fish are protean, and can also attract ducks. Consider foraging as addition to farming. Look at Tappan on Survival for some more subsistance farming / foraging ideas. |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
Down Under On The Bucket Farm wrote:
...I am working on long-term plans for self-sufficiency, oriented to buying some bare land and building an off-grid house, rainwater catchment, composting toilet, etc, etc. One issue is the question of how much physical space would be needed to grow enough food to completely support myself?... I do understand the risk of, for example, having a bad year, bad weather, etc, and so would have money set aside to buy food in that case. But the plan is to avoid that if at all possible. I live in New Zealand, with plenty of rain in winter, but also reasonable sunshine in summer... No definite answer to this one. Too many variables. However, there is a book, written probably in the 1940's (judging from the illustrations), called "5 Acres and Independence", author's name escapes me at the moment, but I think it starts with a K. It's full of receipes for various necessities such as building your own septic tank, root crop storage, etc., so although it's dated it might contain something of value. You will have to grow more than you need, because you will need some money to buy (or trade for) stuff you can't grow (e.g. salt [unless you have a salt mine or live by the sea]) Just Googled the book, author Maurice Kains. Available at Amazon.com (reprint, paperback $7.95US, some used copies cheaper). Check your local library. |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
If you look at Buffalo Bird Woman's Garden: http://digital.library.upenn.edu/wom...en/garden.html You can see what they did for subsistence living in North America 150 years ago. Corn & squash for carbohydrates, beans for protein, sunflowers for fats, ground cherries for vitamins. (She mentions buffalo scrotums & deer antlers as tools, but I don't recall if she says how much meat they needed by hunting.) Jeavons books aim at something like what you are interested in: http://www.bountifulgardens.org/grow...e-books.html#1 I don't know if anyone ever actually lived exclusively on the produce they grew in these little plots. Looks pretty hard to me. Hope this helps, -- Bob Mounger gregpresley wrote: Although people have talked about the work, the land, the crops, and maybe the animals, you really have to think about your caloric needs, and what is practical/possible to grow to supply those. Vegetables are great, (my favorites), but most are low in calories, so they won't supply the energy you need to do the farming. For that you need concentrated sources of carbohydrates. A large quantity of potatoes can be grown on small plots, which is how the Irish survived when most of their most farmable land was owned by the English. When potatoes are your SOLE source of carbohydrates, you are probably talking something like 5 pounds per day....Grains like wheat need a fair amount of land to grow, as only a tiny part of the plant translates into useable food. Most cereal grains, like wheat,corn and oats, need more land, but less intensive cultivation, except at planting and harvest time. (In biblical times, didn't they just scratch the ground and then throw the seed on the field out of bags or something?) Some of the small grains eaten whole, such as quinoa and amaranth, could probably be grown on a much smaller plot and could provide a good carbohydrate alternative to potatoes - as well as adding some needed variety - but only if you like their taste. I think buckwheat can also be grown compactly, as it is not a true grain. Root vegetables such as turnips, parsnips, and rutabagas are also pretty good sources of carbohydrates - and carrots too, if eaten in quantity. Hard winter squash is also a pretty good source of carbohydrates. That might need more land if you are going to plant enough to last through the winter. With a total vegetarian diet, you will also need to think about sources of fat. It would be a good idea to plant a nut tree - however, it might be 15-25 years before you get an impressive crop. Beans, dried peas, and other legumes can supply the majority of protein needs, but again, you have to like them - and you have to have a successful crop. Most people would want to have eggs for an additional protein source, but keeping chickens adds another layer of work to a one-person operation. If you wanted milk, then you are talking about cows and/or goats, which again, add another layer of work - and more land requirements - as well as setting aside some land solely for grazing. In some cultures, certain types of insects are eaten as sources of protein - for example, termites. But that might be hard for a person from Western Cultures to stomach. "Down Under On The Bucket Farm" wrote in message ... Hi Everybody, I am working on long-term plans for self-sufficiency, oriented to buying some bare land and building an off-grid house, rainwater catchment, composting toilet, etc, etc. One issue is the question of how much physical space would be needed to grow enough food to completely support myself? I am willing to eat anything that is healthy, preferably remaining vegetarian (although I am quite willing to have chickens for eggs, and perhaps a goat for milk.) This would involve one person living alone, in decent physical condition, willing to do hard work and learn whatever is needed. I realise that the yearly food yield will have to be spread out via preserving, canning, etc. My "day job" can be done remotely, via wireless Internet connection, with flexible hours, thus leaving time and opportunity for extensive gardening/farming, etc. I do understand the risk of, for example, having a bad year, bad weather, etc, and so would have money set aside to buy food in that case. But the plan is to avoid that if at all possible. I live in New Zealand, with plenty of rain in winter, but also reasonable sunshine in summer. So... How many acres of flat, farm-able land will I need? Thanks in advance! -V. -- Guide To DIY Living http://www.self-reliance.co.nz (Work in progress) |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
Try ducks instead of chickens for eggs. They forage more on their own and
some breeds (Khaki Campbells) lay just as well as chickens. Geese are excellent foragers, but they don't lay for very long. I've found ducks to be more hardy, less likely to get sick, but messier. Jena |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message ...
Excellent idea. Without such you will be subject to seasonal feast/famine even with good preserving techniques. David Since the original poster was posting from subtropical Australia, I doubt it. One just has to have winter vegetables, and things like grains and beans. |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
"Bob Peterson" wrote in message ...
personally I suspect you can do a lot on 5 good acres with a continuous water source, but I am leery of trusting my life to such a small area. such a small area? In the US we produce easily 2 tons of wheat per acre, which will cover the caloric needs of 7. Given that 90% of the acreage is for feed, we have much less than an acre per person to live on. |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
"Pam - gardengal" wrote in message news:jUIAb.453413$Tr4.1256311@attbi_s03...
[snip] I'm not sure acreage is necessary. I have a friend who grows all the fruit and produce she needs to support her family on a small urban lot. And she has enough left over to share with a local foodbank. Zucchini to the left of me. Zucchini to the right of me. Really, it depends on what your definition of "self-sufficient" is. Did you grow that computer terminal? Did you raise enough food to barter for that computer terminal? What about that hoe? Or that shovel? Or that nail? Or that chicken wire? Well, if you understand the answers to those questions, you probably were never here in the first place. Socks |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
there is someone in tasmania working along those lines as i understand
it he doesn't even have power, not sure now where i've seen his posts, but maybe you could post this question in aus.gardens, or http://www.au.gardenweb.com/forums/ozgard/. we have near 70 acres here in queensland in aus', can't live without power/phone etc.,. could grow enough veges on 2 to 5 acres need more to grow enough fruit but we love our meat so could never grow enough chooks/ducks/beef to keep the freezer full. then there are the things like sugar, salt, tea/coffee, fuel, soap etc.,. so maybe partial self sufficiency is attainable? could be a full time job just doing enough to survive. and like you say then the affects of climate/weather kick in. where starting off simply trying to supplement, so far w don't buy much in the vege line, but being in the sub-tropics can't imagine how to grow enough potatoes, sweet potatoes yes but then not every body likes them in the diet. just my thoughts keep us informed on how you as you go along. len snipped -- happy gardening 'it works for me it could work for you,' "in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment http://home.dnet.aunz.com/gardnlen/ |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
Ian Stirling wrote in message ...
In misc.survivalism Down Under On The Bucket Farm wrote: Hi Everybody, I am working on long-term plans for self-sufficiency, oriented to buying some bare land and building an off-grid house, rainwater catchment, composting toilet, etc, etc. One issue is the question of how much physical space would be needed to grow enough food to completely support myself? The answer kind of depends if you'r in the middle of the Amazon, Antarctica, or Austria. As Ian points out we'd need to know generally where you want to attempt this project. It's one thing to try it in the Southeast and quite another to try it in the Intermountain West. We'd also need to have a fair idea of what your choice of diet would be. The typical American eats a fair amount of meat, consumes a good deal of fat, and an even greater amount of sugar in his diet. All three of these will impact heavily on how much land you'd need to maintain your customary diet. Should you happen to be a vegetarian who does not customarily eat a lot of fats or sugar matters become much simpler. No matter how you cut it true subsistence farming is a time consuming occupation even with a high degree of mechanization. It can be done, but if you're not already an avid gardener you'd best be ready for a major lifestyle change. Gene Logsdon has published a number of books concerning homesteading - which is generally what you're talking about here - and they'll go a long way to pointing out the particulars of your project. In conjunction with spending some time with your local county agricultural agent to gain familiarity with local conditions you'll be a long ways towards understanding what it is you're wanting to do. My advice is to start small. Plant a reasonable sized vegetable garden to supply your fresh summer veggies. If you succeed with that expand your operation to supply your winter veggies - fresh or preserved. Then add in either small scale grain growing or small scale livestock such as chickens or rabbits. You manage all that and you'll have a very good idea of what you need to do to flesh out the rest of the plan. ......Alan. |
Self-Sufficiency Acreage Requirement?
"...........In the US we produce easily 2 tons of wheat per
acre, which will cover the caloric needs of 7........." You might do this on 100 acre fields where the birds are spoiled for choice, but you try a small plot of grain and see just how much the birds have. -- David Hill Abacus nurseries www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk ***2004 catalogue now available*** |
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