On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 10:48:04 -0500, Ricky wrote:

"WiGard" wrote in message
news
Weed barrier fabric makes gardening difficult. When plants need to be
relocated, the fabric always gets in the way. Weeds still will find a
way to root.

True. I never use weed barrier to prevent weeds. It's only real use is to
prevent rocks from sinking into the soil. You can always cut through it
plant something with a sharp knife. Remember our soil in S. Florida is
mostly sand so small rocks tend to disappear over time and foot traffic.


I'm in Wisconsin where the ground remains frozen until August, thaws for
a month or so and the refreezes. There are many in my neighborhood who
have put down fabric and rocks round their foundations. These tend to be
people who think that landscaping and gardening is a one-time event
instead of an ever-changing tapestry of plants that fit the season and
suit one's fancies.

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 10:48:04 -0500, Ricky wrote:

"WiGard" wrote in message
news
Weed barrier fabric makes gardening difficult. When plants need to be
relocated, the fabric always gets in the way. Weeds still will find a
way to root.

True. I never use weed barrier to prevent weeds. It's only real use is to
prevent rocks from sinking into the soil. You can always cut through it
plant something with a sharp knife. Remember our soil in S. Florida is
mostly sand so small rocks tend to disappear over time and foot traffic.


I'm in Wisconsin where the ground remains frozen until August, thaws for
a month or so and the refreezes. There are many in my neighborhood who
have put down fabric and rocks round their foundations. These tend to be
people who think that landscaping and gardening is a one-time event
instead of an ever-changing tapestry of plants that fit the season and
suit one's fancies.

Yes, it will be a bit more time-consuming as you will probably want to lay
your paper down first, then go back and cut an 'X' for each perennial. Pull
the paper back, plant in, and then lay the paper back right up to the stems.
It seems like an inordinate amount of work, but your weeding and maintenance
will be *greatly* decreased if you take the time up front to do it right.

If you're planning an alpine style garden that will use gravel or stone
chips as mulch, I would recommend amending the soil really well first (but
not tilling-- my experience has been that tilling brings up hundreds or
thousands of dormant weed seeds which are activated by the change in
enviorment). Simply top dressing works quite well-- I used this method for
my front mulched bed (Roundup, top dressing, paper/cardboard, mulch) and in
2 years time I noted that the organic material had filtered down a good ten
inches into our Virginia hardpan, creating a rich organic humus. Pretty much
any organic material is good-- shredded leaves/needles, composted cow
manure, peat, grass clippings, shredded bark, straw, it's all good.

Dave

"dd" wrote in message
...
Dave, thanks for the advice!

I won't be planting any trees or shrubs, just a lot of small
plants--many of which will be rock-garden plants. Will this method
still work with them?




In article , David J Bockman
wrote:

DD,

There's no need to dig it out. Presuming that you're planting in mulched
beds, wait the proscribed amount of time as noted in the directions
(10-14
days as I recall) and then plant right in through the sod. Once you've
planted your larger trees/shrubs, cover everything in thick sheets of
newspaper or cardboard and mulch in... you'll be amazed at the fertility
of
your soil next season. All that sod will decompose and leach downwards,
while the newspaper provides a great biodegradable weed barrier.

Dave

"dd" wrote in message
...
This spring, we are taking the plunge and getting rid of our front
lawn, or what's left of it. It covers about 200 square feet. It will
be
a lot of work for me (older female) to dig out the sod. After I dig it
out, I will have to put it in the garbage. (We have a small urban lot
and there is absolutely no place to compost the sold or hide it.)

So, will using Round-up kill the grass in a satisfactory manner? Will
it leave soil in which I can plant new plants in a month or so after
the grass is dead? Will the Round-up hurt the dogwood tree that is
under the grass? Will it hurt the birds who visit my garden?

Normally, I am not a fan of Round-up, but it does seem like a good
alternative to digging out all that sod.

Thanks for any help.

Yes, it will be a bit more time-consuming as you will probably want to lay
your paper down first, then go back and cut an 'X' for each perennial. Pull
the paper back, plant in, and then lay the paper back right up to the stems.
It seems like an inordinate amount of work, but your weeding and maintenance
will be *greatly* decreased if you take the time up front to do it right.

If you're planning an alpine style garden that will use gravel or stone
chips as mulch, I would recommend amending the soil really well first (but
not tilling-- my experience has been that tilling brings up hundreds or
thousands of dormant weed seeds which are activated by the change in
enviorment). Simply top dressing works quite well-- I used this method for
my front mulched bed (Roundup, top dressing, paper/cardboard, mulch) and in
2 years time I noted that the organic material had filtered down a good ten
inches into our Virginia hardpan, creating a rich organic humus. Pretty much
any organic material is good-- shredded leaves/needles, composted cow
manure, peat, grass clippings, shredded bark, straw, it's all good.

Dave

"dd" wrote in message
...
Dave, thanks for the advice!

I won't be planting any trees or shrubs, just a lot of small
plants--many of which will be rock-garden plants. Will this method
still work with them?




In article , David J Bockman
wrote:

DD,

There's no need to dig it out. Presuming that you're planting in mulched
beds, wait the proscribed amount of time as noted in the directions
(10-14
days as I recall) and then plant right in through the sod. Once you've
planted your larger trees/shrubs, cover everything in thick sheets of
newspaper or cardboard and mulch in... you'll be amazed at the fertility
of
your soil next season. All that sod will decompose and leach downwards,
while the newspaper provides a great biodegradable weed barrier.

Dave

"dd" wrote in message
...
This spring, we are taking the plunge and getting rid of our front
lawn, or what's left of it. It covers about 200 square feet. It will
be
a lot of work for me (older female) to dig out the sod. After I dig it
out, I will have to put it in the garbage. (We have a small urban lot
and there is absolutely no place to compost the sold or hide it.)

So, will using Round-up kill the grass in a satisfactory manner? Will
it leave soil in which I can plant new plants in a month or so after
the grass is dead? Will the Round-up hurt the dogwood tree that is
under the grass? Will it hurt the birds who visit my garden?

Normally, I am not a fan of Round-up, but it does seem like a good
alternative to digging out all that sod.

Thanks for any help.

Yes, it will be a bit more time-consuming as you will probably want to lay
your paper down first, then go back and cut an 'X' for each perennial. Pull
the paper back, plant in, and then lay the paper back right up to the stems.
It seems like an inordinate amount of work, but your weeding and maintenance
will be *greatly* decreased if you take the time up front to do it right.

If you're planning an alpine style garden that will use gravel or stone
chips as mulch, I would recommend amending the soil really well first (but
not tilling-- my experience has been that tilling brings up hundreds or
thousands of dormant weed seeds which are activated by the change in
enviorment). Simply top dressing works quite well-- I used this method for
my front mulched bed (Roundup, top dressing, paper/cardboard, mulch) and in
2 years time I noted that the organic material had filtered down a good ten
inches into our Virginia hardpan, creating a rich organic humus. Pretty much
any organic material is good-- shredded leaves/needles, composted cow
manure, peat, grass clippings, shredded bark, straw, it's all good.

Dave

"dd" wrote in message
...
Dave, thanks for the advice!

I won't be planting any trees or shrubs, just a lot of small
plants--many of which will be rock-garden plants. Will this method
still work with them?




In article , David J Bockman
wrote:

DD,

There's no need to dig it out. Presuming that you're planting in mulched
beds, wait the proscribed amount of time as noted in the directions
(10-14
days as I recall) and then plant right in through the sod. Once you've
planted your larger trees/shrubs, cover everything in thick sheets of
newspaper or cardboard and mulch in... you'll be amazed at the fertility
of
your soil next season. All that sod will decompose and leach downwards,
while the newspaper provides a great biodegradable weed barrier.

Dave

"dd" wrote in message
...
This spring, we are taking the plunge and getting rid of our front
lawn, or what's left of it. It covers about 200 square feet. It will
be
a lot of work for me (older female) to dig out the sod. After I dig it
out, I will have to put it in the garbage. (We have a small urban lot
and there is absolutely no place to compost the sold or hide it.)

So, will using Round-up kill the grass in a satisfactory manner? Will
it leave soil in which I can plant new plants in a month or so after
the grass is dead? Will the Round-up hurt the dogwood tree that is
under the grass? Will it hurt the birds who visit my garden?

Normally, I am not a fan of Round-up, but it does seem like a good
alternative to digging out all that sod.

Thanks for any help.

"WiGard" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 12:23:46 +0000, dd wrote:

This spring, we are taking the plunge and getting rid of our front lawn,
or what's left of it. It covers about 200 square feet. It will be a lot
of
work for me (older female) to dig out the sod. After I dig it out, I
will
have to put it in the garbage. (We have a small urban lot and there is
absolutely no place to compost the sold or hide it.)

So, will using Round-up kill the grass in a satisfactory manner? Will it
leave soil in which I can plant new plants in a month or so after the
grass is dead? Will the Round-up hurt the dogwood tree that is under the
grass? Will it hurt the birds who visit my garden?

Normally, I am not a fan of Round-up, but it does seem like a good
alternative to digging out all that sod.

Thanks for any help.

I have used Roundup. It works quite nicely. Once everything is dead and
the 2-3 week wait is done, till the soil 8-12" deep. Add peat by
spreading 2" over the tilled area. Retill to incorporate the peat into
the soil. Now the bed is ready for planting.

I'd recommend at least two applications of Roundup spaced 3 weeks apart if
that is the route you choose to follow. The roots of many lawn grasses tend
to be very persistant and the double dose seems to provide better results.

Peat is pretty much worthless as a soil amendment and is non-renewable
resource as well. Add some good quality compost instead. - not sterile and
with greater nutrient content than peat. Adds better pore space as well. I
do agree that taking the time to correctly improve your soil will be of
considerable benefit in the long run. BTW, digging up at least portions of
the sod (perhaps for pathways?) and piling it upside down on the areas you
designate for planting will give your little front garden some needed change
in topography that is visually stimulating and will accent your rock garden
plants and rocks better than a flat terrain. Ad a few dwarf conifers to
provide some height and year round color/interest, too.

pam - gardengal

"J Kolenovsky" wrote in message
...
Something else that works well is "solarizing" the grass by
covering
with black plastic that is well anchored down over it. The grass
dies
and decomposes due to worm action and you aven't lost any of the
beneficial bacteria that has built up in the soil.

http://www.hal-pc.org/~garden/weststreet1.jpg
http://www.hal-pc.org/~garden/cornereast.jpg
http://www.hal-pc.org/~garden/eastgarden2.jpg
http://www.hal-pc.org/~garden/negarden.jpg

JK


============

Actually, though, clear plastic gets hotter quicker (and at
higher temp). I know, it is counterintuitive, but true. The sun
goes through but heat doesn't go back out, so sun keeps
building -- al la greenhouse. And, SOME of the bactees may die;
their susceptibility to temperature varies. But no big deal.
They come back.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature
encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Yes, it will be a bit more time-consuming as you will probably want to lay
your paper down first, then go back and cut an 'X' for each perennial. Pull
the paper back, plant in, and then lay the paper back right up to the stems.
It seems like an inordinate amount of work, but your weeding and maintenance
will be *greatly* decreased if you take the time up front to do it right.

If you're planning an alpine style garden that will use gravel or stone
chips as mulch, I would recommend amending the soil really well first (but
not tilling-- my experience has been that tilling brings up hundreds or
thousands of dormant weed seeds which are activated by the change in
enviorment). Simply top dressing works quite well-- I used this method for
my front mulched bed (Roundup, top dressing, paper/cardboard, mulch) and in
2 years time I noted that the organic material had filtered down a good ten
inches into our Virginia hardpan, creating a rich organic humus. Pretty much
any organic material is good-- shredded leaves/needles, composted cow
manure, peat, grass clippings, shredded bark, straw, it's all good.

Dave

"dd" wrote in message
...
Dave, thanks for the advice!

I won't be planting any trees or shrubs, just a lot of small
plants--many of which will be rock-garden plants. Will this method
still work with them?




In article , David J Bockman
wrote:

DD,

There's no need to dig it out. Presuming that you're planting in mulched
beds, wait the proscribed amount of time as noted in the directions
(10-14
days as I recall) and then plant right in through the sod. Once you've
planted your larger trees/shrubs, cover everything in thick sheets of
newspaper or cardboard and mulch in... you'll be amazed at the fertility
of
your soil next season. All that sod will decompose and leach downwards,
while the newspaper provides a great biodegradable weed barrier.

Dave

"dd" wrote in message
...
This spring, we are taking the plunge and getting rid of our front
lawn, or what's left of it. It covers about 200 square feet. It will
be
a lot of work for me (older female) to dig out the sod. After I dig it
out, I will have to put it in the garbage. (We have a small urban lot
and there is absolutely no place to compost the sold or hide it.)

So, will using Round-up kill the grass in a satisfactory manner? Will
it leave soil in which I can plant new plants in a month or so after
the grass is dead? Will the Round-up hurt the dogwood tree that is
under the grass? Will it hurt the birds who visit my garden?

Normally, I am not a fan of Round-up, but it does seem like a good
alternative to digging out all that sod.

Thanks for any help.

"WiGard" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 08:15:33 -0600, J Kolenovsky wrote:

Something else that works well is "solarizing" the grass by
covering with
black plastic that is well anchored down over it. The grass
dies and
decomposes due to worm action and you aven't lost any of the
beneficial
bacteria that has built up in the soil.


This works great but takes an inordinate amount of time. You
could easily
spend an entire season waiting for the grass to die and be
reduced by worm
action.

2-3 weeks with clear plastic. It gets HOT under there!

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Only where
people have learned to appreciate and cherish the landscape and
its living cover will they treat it with the care and respect it
should have - Paul Bigelow Sears.

"WiGard" wrote in message
news
I'm in Wisconsin where the ground remains frozen until August, thaws for
a month or so and the refreezes. There are many in my neighborhood who
have put down fabric and rocks round their foundations. These tend to be
people who think that landscaping and gardening is a one-time event
instead of an ever-changing tapestry of plants that fit the season and
suit one's fancies.

True, the plants change over time. But the rocks will probably stay the
same... unless you water and feed them.

Clear would get truly hot. I wanted to deprive light so I went with
black. Either way, it gets the job done.


Jim Lewis wrote:
=

"J Kolenovsky" wrote in message
...
Something else that works well is "solarizing" the grass by
covering
with black plastic that is well anchored down over it. The grass
dies
and decomposes due to worm action and you aven't lost any of the
beneficial bacteria that has built up in the soil.
=

http://www.hal-pc.org/~garden/weststreet1.jpg
http://www.hal-pc.org/~garden/cornereast.jpg
http://www.hal-pc.org/~garden/eastgarden2.jpg
http://www.hal-pc.org/~garden/negarden.jpg
=

JK
=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=

Actually, though, clear plastic gets hotter quicker (and at
higher temp). I know, it is counterintuitive, but true. The sun
goes through but heat doesn't go back out, so sun keeps
building -- al la greenhouse. And, SOME of the bactees may die;
their susceptibility to temperature varies. But no big deal.
They come back.
=

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature
encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson

-- =

Celestial Habitats by J. Kolenovsky
2003 Honorable Mention Award, Keep Houston Beautiful
=F4=BF=F4 - http://www.celestialhabitats.com - business
=F4=BF=F4 - http://www.hal-pc.org/~garden/personal.html - personal

"WiGard" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 12:23:46 +0000, dd wrote:

This spring, we are taking the plunge and getting rid of our front lawn,
or what's left of it. It covers about 200 square feet. It will be a lot
of
work for me (older female) to dig out the sod. After I dig it out, I
will
have to put it in the garbage. (We have a small urban lot and there is
absolutely no place to compost the sold or hide it.)

So, will using Round-up kill the grass in a satisfactory manner? Will it
leave soil in which I can plant new plants in a month or so after the
grass is dead? Will the Round-up hurt the dogwood tree that is under the
grass? Will it hurt the birds who visit my garden?

Normally, I am not a fan of Round-up, but it does seem like a good
alternative to digging out all that sod.

Thanks for any help.

I have used Roundup. It works quite nicely. Once everything is dead and
the 2-3 week wait is done, till the soil 8-12" deep. Add peat by
spreading 2" over the tilled area. Retill to incorporate the peat into
the soil. Now the bed is ready for planting.

I'd recommend at least two applications of Roundup spaced 3 weeks apart if
that is the route you choose to follow. The roots of many lawn grasses tend
to be very persistant and the double dose seems to provide better results.

Peat is pretty much worthless as a soil amendment and is non-renewable
resource as well. Add some good quality compost instead. - not sterile and
with greater nutrient content than peat. Adds better pore space as well. I
do agree that taking the time to correctly improve your soil will be of
considerable benefit in the long run. BTW, digging up at least portions of
the sod (perhaps for pathways?) and piling it upside down on the areas you
designate for planting will give your little front garden some needed change
in topography that is visually stimulating and will accent your rock garden
plants and rocks better than a flat terrain. Ad a few dwarf conifers to
provide some height and year round color/interest, too.

pam - gardengal

"J Kolenovsky" wrote in message
...
Something else that works well is "solarizing" the grass by
covering
with black plastic that is well anchored down over it. The grass
dies
and decomposes due to worm action and you aven't lost any of the
beneficial bacteria that has built up in the soil.

http://www.hal-pc.org/~garden/weststreet1.jpg
http://www.hal-pc.org/~garden/cornereast.jpg
http://www.hal-pc.org/~garden/eastgarden2.jpg
http://www.hal-pc.org/~garden/negarden.jpg

JK


============

Actually, though, clear plastic gets hotter quicker (and at
higher temp). I know, it is counterintuitive, but true. The sun
goes through but heat doesn't go back out, so sun keeps
building -- al la greenhouse. And, SOME of the bactees may die;
their susceptibility to temperature varies. But no big deal.
They come back.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature
encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson

"WiGard" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 08:15:33 -0600, J Kolenovsky wrote:

Something else that works well is "solarizing" the grass by
covering with
black plastic that is well anchored down over it. The grass
dies and
decomposes due to worm action and you aven't lost any of the
beneficial
bacteria that has built up in the soil.


This works great but takes an inordinate amount of time. You
could easily
spend an entire season waiting for the grass to die and be
reduced by worm
action.

2-3 weeks with clear plastic. It gets HOT under there!

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Only where
people have learned to appreciate and cherish the landscape and
its living cover will they treat it with the care and respect it
should have - Paul Bigelow Sears.

"WiGard" wrote in message
news
I'm in Wisconsin where the ground remains frozen until August, thaws for
a month or so and the refreezes. There are many in my neighborhood who
have put down fabric and rocks round their foundations. These tend to be
people who think that landscaping and gardening is a one-time event
instead of an ever-changing tapestry of plants that fit the season and
suit one's fancies.

True, the plants change over time. But the rocks will probably stay the
same... unless you water and feed them.