On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 10:26:43 -0800,
(paghat) wrote:

In article ,
(MDO) wrote:

Thanks everyone for your responses. I've looked at a few junipers,
but I think (at least the pictures) make them look like unkept
evergreen bushes.
Do some of them look a bit more manicured? I once
had a Japanese garden book (which I can't find anymore) and it seemed
there were tons of different varieties of evergreen they used; some
looked like moss, others were full shrubs.

I've never seen these low-growing junipers looking really nice for a long
while, & I regard them as too often eyesoars, though this may be mainly
because people think they take no care & put them in the harshest
conditions, & the fact that they don't die in bad conditions doesn't mean
they look nice. Among the many dwarf cultivated forms of false cypress
(Chamaecyparis pisifera) however are many that are absolutely GORGEOUS.
They do require regular moderate watering however & would probably drop
dead in the kinds of conditions that ruin without killing junipers -- but
in a cared-for part of a garden that required such evergreens, the false
cypress cultivars are likely going to be physically nicer than junipers.


What I've noticed about the junipers is they smell like cat pee.. all
by themselves.. no help from the cats. There are some low growing
junipers in the planters dividing the road lanes in many places and
whenever I've had to slow down or stop next to them,
wheeeewwwweeeeee.. stanky! Same outside the library .. I wouldn't
plant those things anywhere near a house!

OOooooOOOoOOooo.. HEY! that just gave me an idea.. I have a real Anal
retentive neighbor who has just had his butt puckering all year about
my old cars (1981 ford fairmont, and 1977 Dodge monaco.. admittedly
ugly but hey has BIG doors for BIG me) .. and then a friend has moved
in and has a pretty new SUV that has temporary paper until she gets
the title .. and he was calling the city to call and complain about
these Abandoned snort cars. Maybe I should plant a bunch of cat pee
junipers over by their place ;-

I'd plant a hedge, except for can't be taller than 3' if it's planted
along a fence line, and grown as a screen/solid, and 4' high if there
are spaces between the plants. In the yard .. plants can't be more
than 1' above grade if grown as a hedge/screen .. aka..grown in a row
with no spaces. And, they can't be grown along the apparent property
line as the highway district really has a right of way 5 feet into my
yard from the sidewalk.. so there are all kinds of laws .. that many
people are breaking but if I do any planting, I have to make sure I
don't break any rules as the twit is just too busy minding my business
instead of his own. Gonna tell him that he was given a neck for a
reason, to turn his big nose and eyes the other way!

I had my niece take the ford to her place to store.. not for the
neighbor's sake, but mine as I need more access to my driveway so I
can plant more stuff in it ;-) And so I can get the other car off the
street if needs be. Which probably bugs him too.. I hope!

Janice
In response to an earlier question, there is no drought tolerance
required. It's a relatively small area that gets mostly shade in the
warm season. If it got real dry, we could water the area.

The false cypress doesn't like much shade, but neither does the homelier
juniper. For the shadier spots you might look into any species of dwarf
yew cultivars. They do great in shade, & though they can be a bit more
costly than juniper & false cypress dwarfs, their beauty if well-selected
can be unexcelled. I'm not sure about their zone restrictions however;
they're mainly temperate.

-paghat the ratgirl

On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 10:26:43 -0800,
(paghat) wrote:

In article ,
(MDO) wrote:

Thanks everyone for your responses. I've looked at a few junipers,
but I think (at least the pictures) make them look like unkept
evergreen bushes.
Do some of them look a bit more manicured? I once
had a Japanese garden book (which I can't find anymore) and it seemed
there were tons of different varieties of evergreen they used; some
looked like moss, others were full shrubs.

I've never seen these low-growing junipers looking really nice for a long
while, & I regard them as too often eyesoars, though this may be mainly
because people think they take no care & put them in the harshest
conditions, & the fact that they don't die in bad conditions doesn't mean
they look nice. Among the many dwarf cultivated forms of false cypress
(Chamaecyparis pisifera) however are many that are absolutely GORGEOUS.
They do require regular moderate watering however & would probably drop
dead in the kinds of conditions that ruin without killing junipers -- but
in a cared-for part of a garden that required such evergreens, the false
cypress cultivars are likely going to be physically nicer than junipers.


What I've noticed about the junipers is they smell like cat pee.. all
by themselves.. no help from the cats. There are some low growing
junipers in the planters dividing the road lanes in many places and
whenever I've had to slow down or stop next to them,
wheeeewwwweeeeee.. stanky! Same outside the library .. I wouldn't
plant those things anywhere near a house!

OOooooOOOoOOooo.. HEY! that just gave me an idea.. I have a real Anal
retentive neighbor who has just had his butt puckering all year about
my old cars (1981 ford fairmont, and 1977 Dodge monaco.. admittedly
ugly but hey has BIG doors for BIG me) .. and then a friend has moved
in and has a pretty new SUV that has temporary paper until she gets
the title .. and he was calling the city to call and complain about
these Abandoned snort cars. Maybe I should plant a bunch of cat pee
junipers over by their place ;-

I'd plant a hedge, except for can't be taller than 3' if it's planted
along a fence line, and grown as a screen/solid, and 4' high if there
are spaces between the plants. In the yard .. plants can't be more
than 1' above grade if grown as a hedge/screen .. aka..grown in a row
with no spaces. And, they can't be grown along the apparent property
line as the highway district really has a right of way 5 feet into my
yard from the sidewalk.. so there are all kinds of laws .. that many
people are breaking but if I do any planting, I have to make sure I
don't break any rules as the twit is just too busy minding my business
instead of his own. Gonna tell him that he was given a neck for a
reason, to turn his big nose and eyes the other way!

I had my niece take the ford to her place to store.. not for the
neighbor's sake, but mine as I need more access to my driveway so I
can plant more stuff in it ;-) And so I can get the other car off the
street if needs be. Which probably bugs him too.. I hope!

Janice
In response to an earlier question, there is no drought tolerance
required. It's a relatively small area that gets mostly shade in the
warm season. If it got real dry, we could water the area.

The false cypress doesn't like much shade, but neither does the homelier
juniper. For the shadier spots you might look into any species of dwarf
yew cultivars. They do great in shade, & though they can be a bit more
costly than juniper & false cypress dwarfs, their beauty if well-selected
can be unexcelled. I'm not sure about their zone restrictions however;
they're mainly temperate.

-paghat the ratgirl

On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 10:26:43 -0800,
(paghat) wrote:

In article ,
(MDO) wrote:

Thanks everyone for your responses. I've looked at a few junipers,
but I think (at least the pictures) make them look like unkept
evergreen bushes.
Do some of them look a bit more manicured? I once
had a Japanese garden book (which I can't find anymore) and it seemed
there were tons of different varieties of evergreen they used; some
looked like moss, others were full shrubs.

I've never seen these low-growing junipers looking really nice for a long
while, & I regard them as too often eyesoars, though this may be mainly
because people think they take no care & put them in the harshest
conditions, & the fact that they don't die in bad conditions doesn't mean
they look nice. Among the many dwarf cultivated forms of false cypress
(Chamaecyparis pisifera) however are many that are absolutely GORGEOUS.
They do require regular moderate watering however & would probably drop
dead in the kinds of conditions that ruin without killing junipers -- but
in a cared-for part of a garden that required such evergreens, the false
cypress cultivars are likely going to be physically nicer than junipers.


What I've noticed about the junipers is they smell like cat pee.. all
by themselves.. no help from the cats. There are some low growing
junipers in the planters dividing the road lanes in many places and
whenever I've had to slow down or stop next to them,
wheeeewwwweeeeee.. stanky! Same outside the library .. I wouldn't
plant those things anywhere near a house!

OOooooOOOoOOooo.. HEY! that just gave me an idea.. I have a real Anal
retentive neighbor who has just had his butt puckering all year about
my old cars (1981 ford fairmont, and 1977 Dodge monaco.. admittedly
ugly but hey has BIG doors for BIG me) .. and then a friend has moved
in and has a pretty new SUV that has temporary paper until she gets
the title .. and he was calling the city to call and complain about
these Abandoned snort cars. Maybe I should plant a bunch of cat pee
junipers over by their place ;-

I'd plant a hedge, except for can't be taller than 3' if it's planted
along a fence line, and grown as a screen/solid, and 4' high if there
are spaces between the plants. In the yard .. plants can't be more
than 1' above grade if grown as a hedge/screen .. aka..grown in a row
with no spaces. And, they can't be grown along the apparent property
line as the highway district really has a right of way 5 feet into my
yard from the sidewalk.. so there are all kinds of laws .. that many
people are breaking but if I do any planting, I have to make sure I
don't break any rules as the twit is just too busy minding my business
instead of his own. Gonna tell him that he was given a neck for a
reason, to turn his big nose and eyes the other way!

I had my niece take the ford to her place to store.. not for the
neighbor's sake, but mine as I need more access to my driveway so I
can plant more stuff in it ;-) And so I can get the other car off the
street if needs be. Which probably bugs him too.. I hope!

Janice
In response to an earlier question, there is no drought tolerance
required. It's a relatively small area that gets mostly shade in the
warm season. If it got real dry, we could water the area.

The false cypress doesn't like much shade, but neither does the homelier
juniper. For the shadier spots you might look into any species of dwarf
yew cultivars. They do great in shade, & though they can be a bit more
costly than juniper & false cypress dwarfs, their beauty if well-selected
can be unexcelled. I'm not sure about their zone restrictions however;
they're mainly temperate.

-paghat the ratgirl

"paghat" wrote in message
news
In article ,
"Stephen M. Henning" wrote:

"Pam - gardengal" wrote:

Both Euonymus fortunei and Hedera helix can be extremely invasive and
are
listed on a number of states noxious weed listings. I'd investigate
their
legitimacy with your local weed authority before planting either in
your
area.

It is a fine line between being a good ground cover and being invasive.
The University of Kentucky lists Euonymous fortunei and Hedera helix as
invasive but not pernicious. They would need to be controlled and kept
out of adjacent areas.

Dwarf cultivars of Hedera helix are not invasive however. None of the
problems associated with ivy can be conferred to the numerous colorful
dwarf varieties, which are nevertheless very hardy & though slow to
establish eventually become superior groundcovers, not treadable, but
thriving even droughty shade areas.

-paghat the ratgirl

Unfortuntely, both the variegated and fancy leaved forms of English ivy are
very prone to reversion to the straight species and can therefore become as
aggressive, weedy and invasive as that plant can be. As long as one pays
close attention and does not allow the reversion to overtake the cultivated
form, you should be OK. And as noted, they are much slower to establish than
the species.

Carpet or groundcover forms of junipers make excellent and attractive
covers, specially for a sloped area, but will need considerable sun and good
drainage to flourish.

Others to consider: kinnikinnick (Arctostaphylos uva-ursi), Cotoneaster
dammeri or Gaultheria procumbens (wintergreen). The first two will tolerate
partial shade but will perform better in sunnier conditions. The last is
very shade tolerant. None are very walkable. Evergreen forms of epimediums
are also a good choice, but are slow to develop colonies.

FWIW, both English Ivy and Euonymus fortunei are listed as seriously
invasive species in the state of Illinois.
http://www.ill-inps.org/index_page0004.htm

pam - gardengal

"paghat" wrote in message
news
In article ,
"Stephen M. Henning" wrote:

"Pam - gardengal" wrote:

Both Euonymus fortunei and Hedera helix can be extremely invasive and
are
listed on a number of states noxious weed listings. I'd investigate
their
legitimacy with your local weed authority before planting either in
your
area.

It is a fine line between being a good ground cover and being invasive.
The University of Kentucky lists Euonymous fortunei and Hedera helix as
invasive but not pernicious. They would need to be controlled and kept
out of adjacent areas.

Dwarf cultivars of Hedera helix are not invasive however. None of the
problems associated with ivy can be conferred to the numerous colorful
dwarf varieties, which are nevertheless very hardy & though slow to
establish eventually become superior groundcovers, not treadable, but
thriving even droughty shade areas.

-paghat the ratgirl

Unfortuntely, both the variegated and fancy leaved forms of English ivy are
very prone to reversion to the straight species and can therefore become as
aggressive, weedy and invasive as that plant can be. As long as one pays
close attention and does not allow the reversion to overtake the cultivated
form, you should be OK. And as noted, they are much slower to establish than
the species.

Carpet or groundcover forms of junipers make excellent and attractive
covers, specially for a sloped area, but will need considerable sun and good
drainage to flourish.

Others to consider: kinnikinnick (Arctostaphylos uva-ursi), Cotoneaster
dammeri or Gaultheria procumbens (wintergreen). The first two will tolerate
partial shade but will perform better in sunnier conditions. The last is
very shade tolerant. None are very walkable. Evergreen forms of epimediums
are also a good choice, but are slow to develop colonies.

FWIW, both English Ivy and Euonymus fortunei are listed as seriously
invasive species in the state of Illinois.
http://www.ill-inps.org/index_page0004.htm

pam - gardengal

"paghat" wrote in message
news
In article ,
"Stephen M. Henning" wrote:

"Pam - gardengal" wrote:

Both Euonymus fortunei and Hedera helix can be extremely invasive and
are
listed on a number of states noxious weed listings. I'd investigate
their
legitimacy with your local weed authority before planting either in
your
area.

It is a fine line between being a good ground cover and being invasive.
The University of Kentucky lists Euonymous fortunei and Hedera helix as
invasive but not pernicious. They would need to be controlled and kept
out of adjacent areas.

Dwarf cultivars of Hedera helix are not invasive however. None of the
problems associated with ivy can be conferred to the numerous colorful
dwarf varieties, which are nevertheless very hardy & though slow to
establish eventually become superior groundcovers, not treadable, but
thriving even droughty shade areas.

-paghat the ratgirl

Unfortuntely, both the variegated and fancy leaved forms of English ivy are
very prone to reversion to the straight species and can therefore become as
aggressive, weedy and invasive as that plant can be. As long as one pays
close attention and does not allow the reversion to overtake the cultivated
form, you should be OK. And as noted, they are much slower to establish than
the species.

Carpet or groundcover forms of junipers make excellent and attractive
covers, specially for a sloped area, but will need considerable sun and good
drainage to flourish.

Others to consider: kinnikinnick (Arctostaphylos uva-ursi), Cotoneaster
dammeri or Gaultheria procumbens (wintergreen). The first two will tolerate
partial shade but will perform better in sunnier conditions. The last is
very shade tolerant. None are very walkable. Evergreen forms of epimediums
are also a good choice, but are slow to develop colonies.

FWIW, both English Ivy and Euonymus fortunei are listed as seriously
invasive species in the state of Illinois.
http://www.ill-inps.org/index_page0004.htm

pam - gardengal

"Janice" wrote in message
...

What I've noticed about the junipers is they smell like cat pee.. all
by themselves.. no help from the cats. There are some low growing
junipers in the planters dividing the road lanes in many places and
whenever I've had to slow down or stop next to them,
wheeeewwwweeeeee.. stanky! Same outside the library .. I wouldn't
plant those things anywhere near a house!

That aroma seems to be restricted to only a certain species of juniper,
primarily Savin junipers, Juniperus sabina. Unfortunately, they, and
'Tamariscifolia' in particular, are some of the most commonly planted forms.
They can grow to be huge, gnarly, scratchy monsters, nearly impossible to
remove and often plagued by juniper blight. I'd avoid them at all costs,
unless attempting to irritate your neighbors :-))

pam - gardengal

"Janice" wrote in message
...

What I've noticed about the junipers is they smell like cat pee.. all
by themselves.. no help from the cats. There are some low growing
junipers in the planters dividing the road lanes in many places and
whenever I've had to slow down or stop next to them,
wheeeewwwweeeeee.. stanky! Same outside the library .. I wouldn't
plant those things anywhere near a house!

That aroma seems to be restricted to only a certain species of juniper,
primarily Savin junipers, Juniperus sabina. Unfortunately, they, and
'Tamariscifolia' in particular, are some of the most commonly planted forms.
They can grow to be huge, gnarly, scratchy monsters, nearly impossible to
remove and often plagued by juniper blight. I'd avoid them at all costs,
unless attempting to irritate your neighbors :-))

pam - gardengal

"Janice" wrote in message
...

What I've noticed about the junipers is they smell like cat pee.. all
by themselves.. no help from the cats. There are some low growing
junipers in the planters dividing the road lanes in many places and
whenever I've had to slow down or stop next to them,
wheeeewwwweeeeee.. stanky! Same outside the library .. I wouldn't
plant those things anywhere near a house!

That aroma seems to be restricted to only a certain species of juniper,
primarily Savin junipers, Juniperus sabina. Unfortunately, they, and
'Tamariscifolia' in particular, are some of the most commonly planted forms.
They can grow to be huge, gnarly, scratchy monsters, nearly impossible to
remove and often plagued by juniper blight. I'd avoid them at all costs,
unless attempting to irritate your neighbors :-))

pam - gardengal

"Janice" wrote in message
...

What I've noticed about the junipers is they smell like cat pee.. all
by themselves.. no help from the cats. There are some low growing
junipers in the planters dividing the road lanes in many places and
whenever I've had to slow down or stop next to them,
wheeeewwwweeeeee.. stanky! Same outside the library .. I wouldn't
plant those things anywhere near a house!

That aroma seems to be restricted to only a certain species of juniper,
primarily Savin junipers, Juniperus sabina. Unfortunately, they, and
'Tamariscifolia' in particular, are some of the most commonly planted forms.
They can grow to be huge, gnarly, scratchy monsters, nearly impossible to
remove and often plagued by juniper blight. I'd avoid them at all costs,
unless attempting to irritate your neighbors :-))

pam - gardengal

"Stephen M. Henning" wrote in message
news
(MDO) wrote:

Does anyone have a recommendation for an evergreen groundcover in Zone
5 (Central Illinois)?
I have an area that gets partial shade. Would like something that
stays green all year, but is fairly low to the ground and spreads
quickly.

The following do well in sun or shade and will survive drought:

Euonymus fortunei (big leaf wintercreeper) will climb trees.
Hedera helix (English ivy) will climb trees. Need hardy variety.
Parthenocissus quinquefolia (Virginia creeper, woodbine) likes shade.

Parthenocissus quinquefolia is not evergreen and is also a vine, not a
groundcover. Guess one could use it for that purpose, but it wouldn't be
very low growing and certainly would not remain green.

Both Euonymus fortunei and Hedera helix can be extremely invasive and are
listed on a number of states noxious weed listings. I'd investigate their
legitimacy with your local weed authority before planting either in your
area.

Was drought tolerance a requirement for this area?

"Stephen M. Henning" wrote in message
news
(MDO) wrote:

Does anyone have a recommendation for an evergreen groundcover in Zone
5 (Central Illinois)?
I have an area that gets partial shade. Would like something that
stays green all year, but is fairly low to the ground and spreads
quickly.

The following do well in sun or shade and will survive drought:

Euonymus fortunei (big leaf wintercreeper) will climb trees.
Hedera helix (English ivy) will climb trees. Need hardy variety.
Parthenocissus quinquefolia (Virginia creeper, woodbine) likes shade.

Parthenocissus quinquefolia is not evergreen and is also a vine, not a
groundcover. Guess one could use it for that purpose, but it wouldn't be
very low growing and certainly would not remain green.

Both Euonymus fortunei and Hedera helix can be extremely invasive and are
listed on a number of states noxious weed listings. I'd investigate their
legitimacy with your local weed authority before planting either in your
area.

Was drought tolerance a requirement for this area?

I don't believe Vinca is evergreen in zone 5. One Denver garden center
http://www.echters.com/frost.htm site lists Vinca as an annual, and
Denver is USDA zone 5b

Denver has been rezoned to 6 ( see
http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/CoopE...rden/zones.htm ), and vinca major
(big leaf periwinkle is very much an evergreen, perennial, shade-loving xeric
groundcover here.
sed5555

I don't believe Vinca is evergreen in zone 5. One Denver garden center
http://www.echters.com/frost.htm site lists Vinca as an annual, and
Denver is USDA zone 5b

Denver has been rezoned to 6 ( see
http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/CoopE...rden/zones.htm ), and vinca major
(big leaf periwinkle is very much an evergreen, perennial, shade-loving xeric
groundcover here.
sed5555