Squirrel.....a rat with a furry tail and social acceptance
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On Mon, 31 May 2004 02:38:37 GMT, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

snip

In many [most?] states that is illegal. Check with your local
authority & you might get a permit to catch & kill them, but it isn't
likely they'll let you give your problem to someone else.

Jim

I already checked last year. I've already moved over 20 squirrels to
a remote wooded area, 12 miles away. Killing squirrels is legal too,
but I would not do that unless I had plans to float them in a pot with
onions. You don't need a hunting/fishing license to trap or kill
squirrels on private property here in Tennessee.

Why killing a deer on your own property is illegal (except during the
hunting season)--I don't understand but I know several neighbors that
use bow-and-arrow to do it anyway any time of year.

In article ,
wrote:

(paghat) wrote:
-snip-
A good description of these critters is at
http://spot.colorado.edu/~halloran/sq_grey.html


This article states that the grey squirrel is non-territorial. And
I'm 99% sure I have a grey-squirrel issue. My current plan is to
trap and relocate them.

The articlt cited simultaneously states that each Grey squirrel's
territory is 5 hectares (within a 40 hectare forest of overlapping
territories), which is a great deal larger than my memory had recalled.
Five hectares is over ten thousand acres! Pretty damned big piece of
territory to be required by a non-territorial animal.

I don't know whether your hectares or your acres are different-- but
in US measure 1 Hectare=2.47 acres

I'm constantly confused by metrics, sorry; I had it right in my first
post, but looked up the metrics at the last minute yesterday & read 2.471
acres as having a comma (& thought to myself, oh my god for years I
thought they only needed a few acres each).

Reread the article-- It says;
"Grey squirrels are non-territorial. They have large overlapping home
ranges which average 5 hectares in size. . ."
A 'home range' is not a territory. [this might be our sometimes
uncommon language giving us trouble here]
Territory=cross the line & I attack.

Actually "territory" & "home range" & "home territory" are frequently used
interchangeably, but territoriality is often defined as a level of
agression in willingness to even kill to protect one's territory/home
range, & greys are vastly less apt to kill one another, though males have
done so (or skinned each others' tales permananetly bald) during mating
seasons. Authors who do distinguish between a shared home range always
acknowledge a smaller personal territory at the core of these overlapping
home ranges.

If a male fails to keep other males out of his mate's territory, she will
become promiscuous, & that makes her usual partner fighting mad. Female
greys become territorial while lactating; they become radical loners &
will not permit even the nearest most familiar male (with whom she
practically lives during two estrus periods each year) to come anywhere
near her home range territory; we've all seen these bonded couples chasing
one another, & if one gets run over or otherwise killed, the survivor
grieves & calls to the mate for weeks or months. Both males & females will
defend areas adjacent to their primary dreys or a central den within their
home range. These are all territorial behaviors which restrict the number
of greys that can live peacefully within a larger series of overlapping
but nevertheless distinct territories. When kept as pets, mature squirrels
become threatening toward visitors who are perceived as territorial
interlopers.

Your definitions are useful in a specific article that desired to make
such distinctions for specific purposes, but could not be imposed on all
other authors. For instance, studies of "territorial marking" (with scent
gland & urine) is a manifestation of grey squirrel terroriality even if
not backed up with anything extremely aggressive; hence Grey Squirrels are
most adamant about marking territory, defining routes from tree to tree
even through areas where ranges overlap, & other squirrels (especially the
males) encountering these marked routes, know to mark their own routes
elsewhere, so that overlapping territories are less likely to result in
open conflict. Grey squirrels following their own scent-trails through the
trees will make a sudden stop to investigate any "interuption" from a
rival scent, but then usually continue on their route, unlike a douglas
who would follow after & harrass the interloper.

Many authors distinguish between these generally territorial behaviors
restricted to mating season or rearing-den defense or marking behavior or
non-familial interlopers, & "true territoriality" which is more vigorous &
hostile toward other members of their own species, hence "Home ranges can
overlap and there is no evidence that of true territoriality (Don 1983)
although core areas are sometimes defended *(Kenward 1985)." [Barbara
Bellens- Picon, study presented in November 2002 at New York State
Wildlife Conference, & available at
http://www.squirrelsanctuary.org/sci...onlinensis.htm ] In other
words the mere capacity to permit territories to overlap is
non-territoriality, yet each squirrel nevertheless maintains a territory
by means of a whole panoply of territorial behaviors which restrict
populations & population movement. Thus even such radically social animals
as prairie dogs exhibit a wide range of territorial behaviors.

When greys are observed as "non territorial" this is about their capacity
for accomodation lacking in other species, but they remain territorial
about their marked trails, rival male visitors during courtship seasons,
non-familial relocated squirrels, or any fellow greys whatsoever while
raising young. Their willingness to share rich food resources sets them
apart from "true" territoriality, & this is probably related to their not
being food horders in the manner of reds -- reds must defend vigorously
large food resources (their caches & also the trees from which they glean
for staches, without which they die in winter), but greys hide food in
dispersed manners & often never go back to retrieve what they've hidden
(or planted) & so they cannot be robbed the way greys rob reds into
starvation, & are not at risk of winter starvation because they'll resort
to eating anything even distantly edible in a pinch.

Here are some random quotes on grey squirrel territorial behaviors:

Bellarmine University student-conducted study:
"The greatest number of squirrels were found around Bellarmine Dorms which
had the greatest source of both manmade food and greatest density of nut
producing trees that we observed. Next was Seneca Park which had several
nut producing trees and other food sources.* However the density of the
trees was less then that of the Dorm site causing less area for the
squirrels to nest in. The Beargrass site was the highest density of trees
but many of them were not nut producing, causing territory size to be
fairly large. Territory seems to be relational to amount of food and the
density of the trees."
cas.bellarmine.edu/tietjen/PPT/Ecology/squirrel.ppt

"Related individuals may defend a territory. Home ranges are generally
larger in the summer. Home range sizes are negatively correlated with
squirrel density, meaning the larger the territory, the fewer eastern grey
squirrels live there. Females nest alone when pregnant and lactating,
during these times females are especially aggressive and are avoided by
others."
From University of Michigan:
http://www.biokids.umich.edu/critter...olinensis.html
That quote is interesting because it shows that overlapping territories
belong to RELATED individuals; studies of migrating or trapped-&-released
greys show them to experience extreme misery because they are not
permitted to settle within the overlapping ranges of settled (& related)
squirrels.

Virginia Gewin citing L. Wauters et al, in Behavioral Ecology and
Sociobiology, 2002:
"When greys' home territory overlaps reds', reds recoup only two-thirds of
their nut caches and subsequently lose weight during the winter."
http://www.nature.com/nsu/020204/020204-5.html

A mere amateur observation, but anyone who has squirrels in their
neighborhood will recognize this behavior, which perfectly describes grey
squirrel behavior in the immediate territory surrounding nesting dens &
major dreys:
"The male grey squirrel in particular is intensely territorial, and having
grown up in Norfolk, Virginia (where it often seemed as if we were living
in our house only by the kind permission of the local squirrel
population), I have not only seen male squirrels attack and fight with one
another literally until one of them was killed, but I have also seen
squirrels attack and chase cats and even large dogs."
http://flagspot.net/flags/cz-ra-se.html

Range='I'll cover 5 hectares to find food. That 5 hectares might
be overlapped by 50 other greys, and that's ok with me as long as we
all have plenty to eat'.

5 hectares of forest supports 1 to 8 grey squirrels if one counts
temporarily present adolescents & neighbor squirrels in overlapping
pockets; the adolescents will remain into adulthood only if food resources
make their parents too fat & lazy to shove them out. The number 50 is so
rare that it is an anomally, though it certainly has happened, it is not
normal, & a cause for the anomally is always obvious -- such as RECENT
loss of habitat putting horrific pressures on remaining habitat,or
EXTREMELY rich food resources or hand-outs over a period of years. Such
abnormal squirrel populations are soon disease-ridden eventually resulting
in sudden die-off.

Numbers are never hard & fast, but here's a realistic generality according
to the Alabama Game and Fish Department: "During years of gray squirrel
abundance, ideal habitat may support one squirrel per acre during winter,
the least favorable season. Fall populations may be somewhat higher."
http://www.pfmt.org/wildlife/somethi...y_squirrel.htm (Fall is when
the most adolescents are still hanging around without territories of their
own.) Or this: "one gray squirrel per acre of woodland is a good density
and that three per acre is excellent and only occurs on prime habitat."
www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/lib/pgc/wildlife/ notes/pdf/squirrels.pdf (This
article also points out the high squirrel population of squirrels in areas
where they are semi-tame, like college campuses, never occurs in the
wild.)

The overlapping nature of territories sets the grey apart from all other
squirrels who will at least yell at each with chirps & snorts as warnings
in circumstances that greys aren't phased by. But there is always an
inviolate center even to the grey's territory, & this turns out to be as
big as the red's territory. A red will defend very aggressively one or two
hectares; a grey will range through 5 hectares but protect only 1 hectare,
a male in attempting to cordon off a female lest she become promiscuous, a
female while nursing young to protect food resources for the sake of her
offspring.

This points out both problems for the original poster.

1. The non-territorial nature of the greys makes his property fair
game for an unlimited number of grey squirrels.
2. Those grey squirrels can be some distance away and still fit his
property into their range.
[The max range mentioned is 20 hectares. 20 hectares is about 50
acres- so all the squirrels in 50 acres could come to his house for
lunch. ]

Squirrel stew & spaghetti sauce is quite tasty.

Jim

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

In article ,
wrote:

Squirrel.....a rat with a furry tail and social acceptance
Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Opinions expressed are those of my wifes,
I had no input whatsoever.
Remove "nospam" from email addy.

It has been suggested by many people with pet rats that EVERYone would
love these sweet beasties if we could get them squirrel toupees for their
tails.

-paggers

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

In article , wrote:

On Mon, 31 May 2004 02:38:37 GMT, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

snip

In many [most?] states that is illegal. Check with your local
authority & you might get a permit to catch & kill them, but it isn't
likely they'll let you give your problem to someone else.

Jim

I already checked last year. I've already moved over 20 squirrels to
a remote wooded area, 12 miles away. Killing squirrels is legal too,
but I would not do that unless I had plans to float them in a pot with
onions. You don't need a hunting/fishing license to trap or kill
squirrels on private property here in Tennessee.

As they can return easily from ten miles, I bet they can return less
certainly but some will from 12 miles. The studies that show the misery of
life for those who can't get back suggests that killing them oughtright
might be kinder; I'm vegetarian myself but not against the idea of
meat-eaters putting squirrels that have honestly been a nuisance in their
cookpots.

I remember all the rabbit I ate when my Yakama Indian great-grampa still
lived, & we ate 'em fried, boiled, smoked, baked, or dried. There are
occasional times I want to taste my great-grandma's fried rabbit again,
but vegetarianism keeps me from pursuing that bit of nostalgia. I could be
tempted by a good cook probably. Squirrel is probably a lot tougher to
chew.

-paghat

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

On Mon, 31 May 2004 01:38:52 GMT, Phisherman wrote:

On Sun, 30 May 2004 19:48:23 GMT, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

(paghat) wrote:


-snip-
Squirrels are highly territorial.

The most common squirrel in my part of the world [upstate NY] is the
Eastern Grey. These buggers are gregarious if the food supply will
support them.

A good description of these critters is at
http://spot.colorado.edu/~halloran/sq_grey.html

Oops.. sorry.. OUR squirrels are highly territorial. They chase one
another incessantly if one wants to move into their territory.

Lots of squirrels here, and some of them do tolerate one another, but
I think those are offspring from earlier in the year, later in the
year. They have 2 batches of babies here too.

I know the city folks -as in city government- who tell people they
can't kill the squirrels or trap them .. also said they are
territorial, so doesn't matter *here* what you do, more will always
move in .. no matter how many you can manage to kill within the
confines of your property.. there will always be about 15 that will
try to move into the dead/gone one's territory.

I think squirrels are cute, but I still hate 'em now as far as sharing
my piece of the world with them. Wish they could be repelled or
somehow stopped from coming into the yard, but short of illegal
fencing the property, like up all sides and with a cover..with tiny
mesh, ain't going to get rid of them out of my yard.

Good luck to y'all with those "non-territorial" ones, but I know I'd
like to shoot anyone bringing a squirrel into MY area if I was living
outside town and someone got the bright idea of letting some squirrels
loose out where I lived.. should I managed to move out of town far
enough to be squirrel free.. so planted some nut trees.. oh my ..
someone bringing squirrels out there.. I'd figure hangin' would be too
good for 'em! .. and I'm only .. slightly kidding.

Janice



This article states that the grey squirrel is non-territorial. And
I'm 99% sure I have a grey-squirrel issue. My current plan is to
trap and relocate them.

When I bought this house the neighbors were an elderly couple who
bought huge bags of old bread to feed the squirrels. Their feeder
looked like something out of a Hitchcock movie -- 50-60 squirrels is
no exaggeration.

Fox & reds are less common here [NY], and they don't like to share
with the greys.

If I planted an entire orchard of nuts and did nothing to decrease the
squirrel population, I would get to see a lot of squirrels, but would
never have any nuts. As it is I enjoy some of my harvest, and
frequent dinners of 'Squirrel spaghetti' -- the sauce does wonders for
tenderizing their otherwise rather tough meat.

Jim

On Mon, 31 May 2004 10:55:05 -0700,
(paghat) wrote:

When greys are observed as "non territorial" this is about their capacity
for accomodation lacking in other species, but they remain territorial
about their marked trails, rival male visitors during courtship seasons,
non-familial relocated squirrels, or any fellow greys whatsoever while
raising young. Their willingness to share rich food resources sets them
apart from "true" territoriality, & this is probably related to their not
being food horders in the manner of reds -- reds must defend vigorously
large food resources (their caches & also the trees from which they glean
for staches, without which they die in winter), but greys hide food in
dispersed manners & often never go back to retrieve what they've hidden
(or planted)

If I didn't feed the little buggers roasted peanuts, I'd probably have
a peanut forest in my backyard. What irritates me is that the little
ingrates seem to prefer digging in newly-turned soil, i.e. where I've
planted something.

I get a charge out of watching them in my backyard (and so do my
indoor cats). They usually appear one at a time, but sometimes 4 come
by at once. Occasionally there is a bit of a skirmish, but no serious
problems since I usually toss plenty of peanuts for all.

Generally they are so fast that I can't keep track of who is chasing
who and what happens to the loser, but a while ago I saw a gray
squirrel chase a black squirrel up the tree in a spiral, then down
again. After that, they all got along fine feasting on the peanuts,
so I'm not sure what the chasing was about.

Sue(tm)
Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself!