zxcvbob wrote:

sherwindu wrote:
I don't know what part of the planet you live in, but in the Midwest
here, the yellow jackets can sometimes be a big problem. Haven't
seen many this year, but previously, they went after my peaches. I
had one good sting when I tried to pick up a fallen peach on the
ground, and it took a lot of antihistamine to quiet that one down.

EV also doesn't seem to be growing fruit, or she would not be so
complacent about apple maggots, plum curcullio's, etc. The only time
I stop spraying is when the blossoms are out, since I don't want to
kill my pollinators (bees).

Sherwin

I didn't spray the cherry tree at all this year and the insect and brown
rot loss wasn't that bad -- less than what I lost to the robins.

I live in Southern Minnesota (there's an oxymoron for ya) and the
curcullios and apple maggots are awful here.

Bob,

Try telling that to Rat Lady, who thinks everyone has the same
environment as her Washington home. I believe Apple Maggots,
for one, are predominantly found East of the Rocky Mountains.

I don't spray anything
until after 100% petal drop out of respect for the bees; they're having
a tough time here with the mites. I didn't spray any fungicides this
year and it shows, but a little scab on the apples doesn't hurt
anything. I stopped spraying in July (out of laziness) and was afraid
the apple maggots would ruin everything, but diligent clean-up of fallen
apples last year seems to have paid off. In the past, some years even
with spraying the apple maggots have totally destroyed my crop.

Did you use an effective spray like Imidan? That one really works on
apple maggots, but it is not available to the home orchardist anymore.
If
you can locate a supply of it (farmers can still get it), give it a try.



I would love to get to where insects and disease could be controlled
with just a dormant oil spray before the buds break, followed by
Integrated Pest Management (with a sprayer of malathion standing by,
unused, just in case of emergency.) I don't know if IPM works here or
if the insect load is just too high. I think proper orchard hygiene,
traps, and minimal spraying whenever the traps show a high insect
population might be more effective and more ecological than prophylactic
spraying every 10 days and every time it rains.

My experience is that by waiting too long between spraying, say over one
month,
problems develop. Most years I average about every three weeks. I
missed one
apple tree( Cox's Orange Pippen) on one of my three week cycles, and the
tree
is now showing signs of attack. The leaves are turning prematurely
yellow with
brown spots, and the fruit is being attacked. It may be a coincidence,
but I suspect
the pests found a window of opportunity.

Sherwin D.



Bob

sherwindu expounded:

What's with you organic enthusiasts. Do you all believe the world is going to soon
end?
Pollution from our factories and vehicles is a much much greater threat than the
pesticides being used. When we convert all our energy sources to solar, nuclear,
etc.,
than I think we can worry about the pesticides.

So we're not supposed to take care of what we can, and eliminate toxic
chemicals from our soils and foods? No, small market farmers can
right now take care of it, and they are. The organic gardener/farmers
are making money now, whereas the same can't be said for
conventional/chemical using farmers. Plus their produce is higher
quality; they aren't catering to the mass-shipping market, but tend
to either direct sell or sell locally so they can grow produce that's
actually bred to taste good, rather than withstand shipping. And
finally, the produce is coming down in price, as more and more farmers
enter the market. I welcome and celebrate it, and know that people
who think like you are becoming fewer and fewer (thankfully).

http:///www.biodemocracy.org

--
Ann, Gardening in zone 6a
Just south of Boston, MA
********************************

sherwindu wrote:

I don't spray anything until after 100% petal drop out of respect
for the bees; they're having a tough time here with the mites. I
didn't spray any fungicides this year and it shows, but a little
scab on the apples doesn't hurt anything. I stopped spraying in
July (out of laziness) and was afraid the apple maggots would ruin
everything, but diligent clean-up of fallen apples last year seems
to have paid off. In the past, some years even with spraying the
apple maggots have totally destroyed my crop.


Did you use an effective spray like Imidan? That one really works on
apple maggots, but it is not available to the home orchardist
anymore. If you can locate a supply of it (farmers can still get it),
give it a try.


I used a mixture of malathion EC and methoxyclor WP (I'll add captan or
maneb in the spring next year). If I had seen actual signs of apple
maggots, I would have sprayed diazanon in July and then switched back to
malathion in August, and stop spraying in mid-August. I have a quart of
diazanon 50 EC.


I would love to get to where insects and disease could be
controlled with just a dormant oil spray before the buds break,
followed by Integrated Pest Management (with a sprayer of malathion
standing by, unused, just in case of emergency.) I don't know if
IPM works here or if the insect load is just too high. I think
proper orchard hygiene, traps, and minimal spraying whenever the
traps show a high insect population might be more effective and
more ecological than prophylactic spraying every 10 days and every
time it rains.


Best regards,
Bob

Ann wrote:

sherwindu expounded:

What's with you organic enthusiasts. Do you all believe the world is going to soon
end?
Pollution from our factories and vehicles is a much much greater threat than the
pesticides being used. When we convert all our energy sources to solar, nuclear,
etc.,
than I think we can worry about the pesticides.

So we're not supposed to take care of what we can, and eliminate toxic
chemicals from our soils and foods?

No, I didn't say that. It's putting organic farming way up there as the way to
save the world. The concept is good, but the fanaticism is not called for.

No, small market farmers can
right now take care of it, and they are. The organic gardener/farmers
are making money now, whereas the same can't be said for
conventional/chemical using farmers. Plus their produce is higher
quality; they aren't catering to the mass-shipping market, but tend
to either direct sell or sell locally so they can grow produce that's
actually bred to taste good, rather than withstand shipping.

Organic grown produce may have reduced traces of chemicals (that's why I
wash all my purchases), but there is nothing about organics that makes the
fruit taste any better, or hold up better in shipment. The organic stuff will spoil
as quickly as the chemically grown stuff. However, you can change the genetics
of a fruit, for example, to hold up better in shipping, like the Red Delicious Apple.
Unfortunately, that can reduce the taste of the fruit. Properties like taste and
holding
ability for shipment are in the genes of the fruit. Organics does not change those!
As I mentioned in earlier postings, organics growers are almost forced to select
varieties which are inherently disease resistant, to get any results with the lower
powered organic preventatives. Unfortunately, these fruits are not the very best
tasting varieties. If you pick a particular apple, for example, and grow it
organically
and also chemically, I cannot see there being any difference in taste or long term
storage abilities. I grow a William's Pride Apple which is disease resistant to
fungicides,
but I still have to spray it with insecticides. It is not a bad tasting apple, but
doesn't
compare to my other apples, like Honeycrisp or Ashmead Kernel. I will stick with the
chemical sprays to grow my excellent tasting apples, until the organic people come up
with a spray that can protect all varieties.

And
finally, the produce is coming down in price, as more and more farmers
enter the market.

I still see double prices for organic grown produce at my local Jewel Food Store.

I welcome and celebrate it, and know that people
who think like you are becoming fewer and fewer (thankfully).

Yes, but these people have never tasted a really good apple.



http:///www.biodemocracy.org

--
Ann, Gardening in zone 6a
Just south of Boston, MA
********************************

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:41:22 -0700, paghat wrote:



Paghat, have you ever written a brief response?

Yes.

But I'm not all that interested in communicating with people with the
attention span of a gnat.

Now a report on the yellowjackets.

'much snipping of stuff, to allow for a short response posting...

I must agree with the point of Paggers posting, since I have left my
garden to the "critters" I have noticed that it is much happier, less bug
damage and no issues with me getting stung, since I keep my attitude
towards my friends in that mindset, and so the yellowjackets that are
constantly in my garden gobbling up those bugs that I don't want, don't
even notice me other than to stay out from under my feet ;^)

I really do feel that we spend way too much time trying to stop what our
EarthMother has given to us from doing us good, and instead seem to want
to destroy it, sigh...

FWIW Paghat try a more positive/encouraging reply to others postings, and
you may find them more willing to listen to you...

Peace

Douglas Cole
human resident
MotherEarth

Larry Blanchard wrote:

In article ,
says...
In article , Larry Blanchard
wrote:

Yes it is. But EV doesn't have a hedge full of yellow jackets and an
allergic wife - I do :-).

Yellowjackets are gardeners' friends, as they eat garden-chomping insects.

snip of long tirade

I knew I'd get at least one anti-pesticide fanatic :-).

I'm more concerned about the antibiotic-resistant bacteria we're
breeding with all the "antibacterial" products on the market today than
I am about killing a few thousand insects - there's no shortage.

The problem is the same. The more pesticide that's used, the more resistant the
insects become. That is the main reason for the development of IPM. The
commonly used pesticides lose their efficacy after a while. They're running out
of pesticides that are toxic enough to kill bugs, but not people.

EV

escapee wrote:


You are also incorrect about "profit motive" since many organic farms are very
small, and sell their produce at farmers markets, not on grocery shelves. I
have news, the grocery stores hike up the prices, not the growers. For
instance, bananas. If you see the word organic on a banana, it's generally a
useless term. Bananas normally never need pesticides to produce.

I don't know where you got your information, but it's not correct, I'm afraid. Emile
Frison is one of the world's leading banana researchers, and according to Dr. Frison:

www.futureharvest.org/pdf/banana.pdf
[]
Bananas are threatened by the rapidly spreading fungus Black Sigatoka that has been
undermining banana production for the past three decades. It has reached almost every
banana-growing region in the world and typically reduces yield by 30 to 50 percent.
Other
diseases and pests that cripple yields include a soil fungus, parasitic worms, weevils,
and
viruses such as the Banana Streak Virus, which lurks inside the banana genome itself.
Commercial growers can afford and rely extensively on chemical fungicides, often
spraying their crops 50 times per year—the equivalent of spraying nearly once per week,
which is about 10 times the average for intensive agriculture in industrialized
countries. Chemical inputs account for 27 percent of the production cost of export
bananas. Agricultural chemicals used on bananas for diseases and pests have harmed the
health of plantation workers and the environment.
“If we can devise resistant banana varieties, we could possibly do away with fungicides
and pesticides all together,” said Frison. “In addition, resistant strains are essential
for small-holder farmers, who cannot afford the expensive chemicals to begin with. When
Black Sigatoka strikes, farmers can do little more than watch their plants die.
Increased hunger can swiftly follow.”
[]
www.futureharvest.org/pdf/banana.pdf

EV

" wrote:

EV in :

Their children and grandchildren have been controlling the aphids, not
just on the fruit trees and the roses, but in most of the garden as
well.

yes, keep them hungry and they'll eat anything.
but keep them away from those cherries when close to rpiening, or they'll
leave you none.

:-)

Lady beetles are carnivorous. They prefer soft bodied insects such as
aphids, but will also eat other bugs, including their own kind. I've
documented them in the larval stage cannibalizing one another. Ladybugs
don't eat fruit or vegetation of any kind ... and that's a good thing.

EV

In article , EV wrote:

escapee wrote:


You are also incorrect about "profit motive" since many organic farms
are very
small, and sell their produce at farmers markets, not on grocery shelves. I
have news, the grocery stores hike up the prices, not the growers. For
instance, bananas. If you see the word organic on a banana, it's
generally a
useless term. Bananas normally never need pesticides to produce.

I don't know where you got your information, but it's not correct, I'm
afraid. Emile
Frison is one of the world's leading banana researchers, and according
to Dr. Frison:

www.futureharvest.org/pdf/banana.pdf
[]
Bananas are threatened by the rapidly spreading fungus Black Sigatoka
that has been
undermining banana production for the past three decades. It has reached
almost every
banana-growing region in the world and typically reduces yield by 30 to
50 percent.
Other
diseases and pests that cripple yields include a soil fungus, parasitic
worms, weevils,
and
viruses such as the Banana Streak Virus, which lurks inside the banana
genome itself.
Commercial growers can afford and rely extensively on chemical
fungicides, often
spraying their crops 50 times per year—the equivalent of spraying nearly
once per week,
which is about 10 times the average for intensive agriculture in
industrialized
countries. Chemical inputs account for 27 percent of the production cost
of export
bananas. Agricultural chemicals used on bananas for diseases and pests
have harmed the
health of plantation workers and the environment.
“If we can devise resistant banana varieties, we could possibly do away
with fungicides
and pesticides all together,” said Frison. “In addition, resistant
strains are essential
for small-holder farmers, who cannot afford the expensive chemicals to
begin with. When
Black Sigatoka strikes, farmers can do little more than watch their
plants die.
Increased hunger can swiftly follow.”
[]
www.futureharvest.org/pdf/banana.pdf

EV

I've additionally heard the domestic banana really is endangered because
its own genetic material has narrowed to a couple strains developed for
large size & toughness in shipping & physical apeparance (not so much for
flavor) while wild bananas have vanished with loss of habitat. Some worry
that eventually corn will will follow for the same reasons. Without
careful preservation of a series of wild forms, the selectively bred &
genetically altered crops eventually meet a disease that takes them down.
Without the original seed stocks which can restore genetic strength,
that's the end of a staple crop. At best there'll be massive if temporary
crop die-offs equivalent of the Great Potato Famine.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

EV wrote:
" wrote:


EV in :


Their children and grandchildren have been controlling the aphids, not
just on the fruit trees and the roses, but in most of the garden as
well.

yes, keep them hungry and they'll eat anything.
but keep them away from those cherries when close to rpiening, or they'll
leave you none.

:-)


Lady beetles are carnivorous. They prefer soft bodied insects such as
aphids, but will also eat other bugs, including their own kind. I've
documented them in the larval stage cannibalizing one another. Ladybugs
don't eat fruit or vegetation of any kind ... and that's a good thing.

EV



You're describing the old European lady beetles we all know and love.
The imported Asian lady beetles certainly eat fruit. I've seen them by
the hundreds in my apples; I don't think they will attack a perfect
apple, but once yellow jackets or birds or something make a little hole
in the apple, the ladybugs go after it. They enlarge the hole, which
then attracts more ladybugs.

They are a big problem for grape growers because when they get inside
the grapes, they stink up the juice when the grapes are crushed and they
can easily ruin the wine. At least with a ladybug infested apple, you
can see them.

BTW, they also bite people.

Bob

zxcvbob wrote:

EV wrote:
" wrote:


EV in :


Their children and grandchildren have been controlling the aphids, not
just on the fruit trees and the roses, but in most of the garden as
well.

yes, keep them hungry and they'll eat anything.
but keep them away from those cherries when close to rpiening, or they'll
leave you none.

:-)


Lady beetles are carnivorous. They prefer soft bodied insects such as
aphids, but will also eat other bugs, including their own kind. I've
documented them in the larval stage cannibalizing one another. Ladybugs
don't eat fruit or vegetation of any kind ... and that's a good thing.

EV



You're describing the old European lady beetles we all know and love.
The imported Asian lady beetles certainly eat fruit. I've seen them by
the hundreds in my apples; I don't think they will attack a perfect
apple, but once yellow jackets or birds or something make a little hole
in the apple, the ladybugs go after it. They enlarge the hole, which
then attracts more ladybugs.

Interesting. I hadn't heard of this. But I did find some puzzling evidence on
my plums. The first time I saw them years ago, I thought they were ladybugs
that had somehow died just before becoming fully formed adults. I thought they
were must resting on the fruit to morph and had died. Then, when everyone
brought up plum curculios as a big probelm on plums, I checked some sites to
see what they looked like, and though my bugs don't look like the adult PC, I
thought they might be a pre-adult stage not shown. Now I'm wondering again.

They are a big problem for grape growers because when they get inside
the grapes, they stink up the juice when the grapes are crushed and they
can easily ruin the wine. At least with a ladybug infested apple, you
can see them.

The stupid thing is that the asian ladybugs were imported as beneficials in
vast numbers. Now, thanks to them, native ladybugs have been extirpated almost
everywhere the asian has been introduced.

Good intention, very bad idea. I get the chills whenever I hear about another
insect they want to release to combat some alien that was accidentally imported
and has no natural enemies. Importing alien bugs to battle alien bugs or plants
is a dumb idea at best.

New studies show that the main advantage that alien imports (insects, mollusks
and plants) have is that their usual parasites don't exist here. Whereas they
may be preyed upon by a dozen parasites on their home turf, here there are just
a few at most.


BTW, they also bite people.

This I know! :-D The first few times I transported ladybug larvae to the rose
buffet by hand, the little buggers bit me. I transported them in plastic cups
after that. They're now everywhere so I don't have to move them around. I
didn't introduce them here. They were very well established when I moved here.

EV

paghat wrote:

In article , EV wrote:

escapee wrote:


You are also incorrect about "profit motive" since many organic farms
are very
small, and sell their produce at farmers markets, not on grocery shelves. I
have news, the grocery stores hike up the prices, not the growers. For
instance, bananas. If you see the word organic on a banana, it's
generally a
useless term. Bananas normally never need pesticides to produce.

I don't know where you got your information, but it's not correct, I'm
afraid. Emile
Frison is one of the world's leading banana researchers, and according
to Dr. Frison:

www.futureharvest.org/pdf/banana.pdf
[]
Bananas are threatened by the rapidly spreading fungus Black Sigatoka
that has been
undermining banana production for the past three decades. It has reached
almost every
banana-growing region in the world and typically reduces yield by 30 to
50 percent.
Other
diseases and pests that cripple yields include a soil fungus, parasitic
worms, weevils,
and
viruses such as the Banana Streak Virus, which lurks inside the banana
genome itself.
Commercial growers can afford and rely extensively on chemical
fungicides, often
spraying their crops 50 times per year—the equivalent of spraying nearly
once per week,
which is about 10 times the average for intensive agriculture in
industrialized
countries. Chemical inputs account for 27 percent of the production cost
of export
bananas. Agricultural chemicals used on bananas for diseases and pests
have harmed the
health of plantation workers and the environment.
“If we can devise resistant banana varieties, we could possibly do away
with fungicides
and pesticides all together,” said Frison. “In addition, resistant
strains are essential
for small-holder farmers, who cannot afford the expensive chemicals to
begin with. When
Black Sigatoka strikes, farmers can do little more than watch their
plants die.
Increased hunger can swiftly follow.”
[]
www.futureharvest.org/pdf/banana.pdf

EV

I've additionally heard the domestic banana really is endangered because
its own genetic material has narrowed to a couple strains developed for
large size & toughness in shipping & physical apeparance (not so much for
flavor) while wild bananas have vanished with loss of habitat. Some worry
that eventually corn will will follow for the same reasons. Without
careful preservation of a series of wild forms, the selectively bred &
genetically altered crops eventually meet a disease that takes them down.
Without the original seed stocks which can restore genetic strength,
that's the end of a staple crop. At best there'll be massive if temporary
crop die-offs equivalent of the Great Potato Famine.

-paghat the ratgirl


Yes, that's correct. There was an excellent article on it in New Scientist in the
fall of 2002 IIRC.

EV


--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:30:15 -0400, EV wrote:

Lady beetles are carnivorous. They prefer soft bodied insects such as
aphids, but will also eat other bugs, including their own kind. I've
documented them in the larval stage cannibalizing one another. Ladybugs
don't eat fruit or vegetation of any kind ... and that's a good thing.


Most are carnivorous. Mexican bean ladybug, aka Mexican bean beetle
and the squash ladybug are plant feeders. ...I believe the reason the
larvae cannibalize each other is to get a protein that triggers the
the stoppage of the the juvenile hormone that now allows them to
pupate and become an adult.


Lar. (to e-mail, get rid of the BUGS!!


It is said that the early bird gets the worm,
but it is the second mouse that gets the cheese.