A neighbor uses vinegar to kill weeds growing in cracks in the street and
sidewalk. Does the vinegar degrade? Are there long term negative affects?
Carolyn

x-archive:no

From everything I have read, vinegar is a much better, safer
alternative to herbicides.

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:21:46 -0400, "Carolyn LeCrone"
wrote:

A neighbor uses vinegar to kill weeds growing in cracks in the street and
sidewalk. Does the vinegar degrade? Are there long term negative affects?
Carolyn

In article , "Carolyn LeCrone"
wrote:

A neighbor uses vinegar to kill weeds growing in cracks in the street and
sidewalk. Does the vinegar degrade? Are there long term negative affects?
Carolyn

The acetic acid in vinegar is highly caustic & commonly recommended as an
organic herbicide. It is also used to acidify overly alkaline soil, though
such chemical tinkering with the soil has a bad accumulative effect & it
is better to acidify soil with compost or peat.

Acetic acid is non-selective & kills everything. At solutions rich enough
to kill plants it will also acidify the soil far more than is good for
plants or healthful microorganisms. Kitchen vinegar is 5% acetic acid
which is very mild (acetic acid can kill even people but obviously at such
dilute strengths it is a safe part of the average family diet). 5%
solutions might not be strong enough for the toughest sorts of mature
weeds though its adequate for seedling weeds & anything sensitive. A 20%
acetic acid solution would kill everything within two hours of contact,
but could also be harmful to skin contact; I wouldn't recommend looking
for a stronger source than kitchen vinegar, but there are horticultural
grades of acetic acid that are even stronger than necessary, 25% acetic
acid, which could really do a number on your lawn if you're sick of all
that greenery.

I wouldn't ordinarily use it since it is harmful to everything it touches,
but cracks in the street or sidewalk might be a reasonable exception. I
really prefer manual removal of weeds & topcoating with composted manure
which suppresses germination of weeds' seeds while benifiting all the
wanted plants, but if a herbicide were REALLY necessary, I'd consider
vinegar.

The USDA's Agricultural Research Service (ARS) did the first field &
greenhouse analyses of vinegar as an organic herbicide specifically so
that organic farmers would know for certain it had no negative effect on
crops. Spot-treatment in cornfields, one weed at a time, was effective in
eradicating the majority of all the most aggressive weeds, with no ill
effeccts to the corn so long as the corn was not also sprayed. It was
found useful for pre- & post-crop weed suppressant to stop new weeds from
emerging. But there is always danger to plants because it just as rapidly
injures desirable plants & can only be sprayed on absolutely windless days
in circumstances that do not risk accidentally killing everything else in
addition to the weeds.

Here's an article on the topic:
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/ext/vinegar.html
and here's the Agricuoltural Research Service press release:
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2002/020515.htm

Cornell University did follow-up studies to the USDA research, the major
findings noted he
http://www.cce.cornell.edu/rensselae..._herbicide.htm

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:21:46 -0400, "Carolyn LeCrone"
wrote:

A neighbor uses vinegar to kill weeds growing in cracks in the street and
sidewalk. Does the vinegar degrade? Are there long term negative affects?
Carolyn


Household vinegar contains acetic acid which breaks down over time.
It is a weak acid. I probably would not regularly use an acid (weak
or strong) on concrete as this could weaken it and cause spaulding.
My choice is a propane torch or RoundUp--both are kind to concrete and
the environment.

Phisherman wrote:
...My choice is a propane torch or RoundUp--both are kind to concrete and
the environment...




The propane torch is effective against broadleafed weeds, but not
grasses. The growing point of grasses is located below ground, so the
flame doesn't affect it. Excessive heat against concrete or asphalt
could damage it.

Note that it is not necessary to char the plant, only to heat up the
leaves enough to boil the liquid inside. This ruptures the cell wall and
the plant dies. When you apply the flame, the leaves take on a brief
shiny appearance due to the fluids coming out of the surface. It may not
look as if it has died for a few minutes, but be patient. If the plant
is more than 2" high, it may take several heat treatments to fully kill
it. Trying to reduce the plant to charcoal is a waste of fuel and time
(although in the case of really tough plants it may be psychologically
satisfying).

I tried household vinegar a few years ago on broadleafed weeds on a
gravel parking lot. It killed the grasses and broadleaved weeds, but two
weeks later they were there again. The propane torch worked better.

(paghat) wrote in message ...
In article , "Carolyn LeCrone"
wrote:

A neighbor uses vinegar to kill weeds growing in cracks in the street and
sidewalk. Does the vinegar degrade? Are there long term negative affects?
Carolyn

The acetic acid in vinegar is highly caustic & commonly recommended as an
organic herbicide. It is also used to acidify overly alkaline soil, though
such chemical tinkering with the soil has a bad accumulative effect & it
is better to acidify soil with compost or peat.....


A 20% acetic acid solution would kill everything within two hours of contact,
but could also be harmful to skin contact; I wouldn't recommend looking
for a stronger source than kitchen vinegar, but there are horticultural
grades of acetic acid that are even stronger than necessary, 25% acetic
acid, which could really do a number on your lawn if you're sick of all
that greenery....

Strong acetic acid solutions produce very nasty fumes in addition to
causing chemical burns to the skin and eyes. They must be handled
with care. Long rubber gloves and splash-proof goggles are a must.

Anybody who formulates stop baths for photography knows what it is
like to work with 28% acetic acid or glacial (essentially pure) acetic
acid---you definitely don't do the mixing in a closed space.


J. Del Col

the acetic acid in vinegar is organic and bacteria will break it down very, very
fast. Ingrid

"Carolyn LeCrone" wrote:

A neighbor uses vinegar to kill weeds growing in cracks in the street and
sidewalk. Does the vinegar degrade? Are there long term negative affects?
Carolyn




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

wrote in message ...
the acetic acid in vinegar is organic....


ALL acetic acid is exactly the same stuff, regardless of origin.

J. Del Col

J. Del Col wrote:
wrote in message ...

the acetic acid in vinegar is organic....



ALL acetic acid is exactly the same stuff, regardless of origin.

J. Del Col

You have to realize that Ingrid is a liberal, and therefore thinks there
is something magical about anything that is "organic".

On 25 Sep 2004 10:07:48 -0700, (J. Del Col)
wrote:

wrote in message ...
the acetic acid in vinegar is organic....


ALL acetic acid is exactly the same stuff, regardless of origin.

J. Del Col


Not exactly, but for most practical purposes they are the same
chemical. One exception is stereo activity (chemicals extracted from
plant material are stereo active.) I realize "Organic" has little to
do with "Organic Chemistry."

dykes on bikes wrote in message ...
J. Del Col wrote:
wrote in message ...

the acetic acid in vinegar is organic....



ALL acetic acid is exactly the same stuff, regardless of origin.

J. Del Col

You have to realize that Ingrid is a liberal,...


Being a liberal has nothing to do with. I know plenty of paranoid
organophile conservatives.

"Ever see a commie drink water, Mandrake?"


J. Del Col

actually............
http://www.brainyencyclopedia.com/en...etic_acid.html

glacial acetic acid is not a fermentation product. " Most acetic acid made for
industrial use is made by one of three chemical processes: butane oxidation,
acetaldehyde oxidation, or methanol carbonylation."

it doesnt matter cause once the glacial is diluted bacteria can still break it down.
Ingrid


wrote in message ...
the acetic acid in vinegar is organic....

On 25 Sep 2004 10:07:48 -0700, (J. Del Col) wrote:
ALL acetic acid is exactly the same stuff, regardless of origin.

Phisherman wrote:
Not exactly, but for most practical purposes they are the same
chemical. One exception is stereo activity (chemicals extracted from
plant material are stereo active.) I realize "Organic" has little to
do with "Organic Chemistry."



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

"Carolyn LeCrone" wrote in message
...
A neighbor uses vinegar to kill weeds growing in cracks in the street and
sidewalk. Does the vinegar degrade? Are there long term negative
affects?

Tell your neighbor to boil some water in a tea kettle, then carefully pour
the scalding hot water onto the weeds. I've been doing this for years and it
does the job nicely.

dps wrote in message ...

The propane torch is effective against broadleafed weeds, but not
grasses. The growing point of grasses is located below ground, so the
flame doesn't affect it. Excessive heat against concrete or asphalt
could damage it.

Note that it is not necessary to char the plant, only to heat up the
leaves enough to boil the liquid inside. This ruptures the cell wall and
the plant dies. When you apply the flame, the leaves take on a brief
shiny appearance due to the fluids coming out of the surface. It may not
look as if it has died for a few minutes, but be patient. If the plant
is more than 2" high, it may take several heat treatments to fully kill
it. Trying to reduce the plant to charcoal is a waste of fuel and time
(although in the case of really tough plants it may be psychologically
satisfying).

thats what I thought until I got one. Hopeless thing, I havent botherd
with a new gas canister.


NT