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On 2005-01-25, Edward M. Kennedy wrote:
"Tom Disque" wrote I work in photography and when I go up to NYC to photograph a dancer in a Broadway show (as I did last summer), I can't just plug into any old wall outlet. I don't know what the outlet is rated for, what else is plugged in there, etc. So I get a union guy to do it. He or she is responsible for knowing the condition of the electrical capacity in the building or theater. He comes and checks out my equipment, makes sure it isn't gonna blow up their electrical outlets or in any way keep them from putting on a show. He knows if the outlet is live and if not, how to turn it on. He knowns if it is switched off for a reason - it needs to be repaired or perhaps other things are plugged into it and need to be switched on and off for the show. There are all sorts of pratical reasons why you need a union electrician to do that work - would you want to plug in some cheap-assed made in China electrical device and blow out an entire electrical panel and keep a Broadway show from starting on time? I know also that when my grandmother was n a nursing home, you couldn't plug in any electrical devices into the wall without first having them checked out by the custodial staff. You wouldn't want someone plugging in some crappy old non-grounded lamp and tripping the breakers and grandma's O2 generator goes out - would you? You make some good points that I had not considered. Like what? It's a false dichotomy. You don't need a *union* guy to do that -- you need a *qualified* guy to do that. The "union" guy may be *more* likely to have BS certification for all you know. You know, get passed along by the bureaucracy like in a public school? It's a similar thing for doctors and lawyers. I'm not against their certification, I'm against the monopoly in deciding who gets to practice medicine or law at all. Interesting. How could the monopoly be eliminated and allow unbiased certification. --Ted -- Wes Dukes (wdukes.pobox@com) Swap the . and the @ to email me please. is a garbage address. |
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Like what? It's a false dichotomy. You don't need a *union* guy to do that -- you need a *qualified* guy to do that. The "union" guy may be *more* likely to have BS certification for all you know. You know, get passed along by the bureaucracy like in a public school? It's a similar thing for doctors and lawyers. I'm not against their certification, I'm against the monopoly in deciding who gets to practice medicine or law at all. Interesting. How could the monopoly be eliminated and allow unbiased certification. Reputation. A medical standards group that racks up a lot of bozos with malpractice suits is dead in the water. Right now, the system is not only biased, there's not much feedback. There's no shortage of certification systems in the private market. A bachelors degree in engineering from an *accredited* university is also a form accredation. Microsoft does a lot too, as does the Red Cross for lifeguards. Hey, I used to be a lifeguard! And you don't always need a formal education. Dweezil did not need a *union* electrician, he just needed an electrician. How he fobbed that off is beyond me, especially with most localities requiring electricians to be licensed to boot. Disingenuous... --Ted |
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C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that few power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the Craftsman brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in Taiwan (a democracy I have no problem doing business with) and Red China (perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country where the factories are owned by the state and staffed with slave labor). Are you stuck in the '80s? Most Chinese companies have been privatized. And who owns these private companies? Mostly it is well-connected members of the ChiCom party - so for all intents and purposes, it is still owned by those who run the government. Still stuck in the '80s. The ownership has been changing for quite a while now, but I would not have expected you to be informed enough to know this. No actually - your head is up your ass. Can you tell me who owns the private companies if not the party elite? They just privatized these factories and now they split the profits not with the workers, but with their American investors. So you tell me how while it has changed in shape, the end result isn't really different? Seems it's your head up your own ass. China's got a thriving stock market and ownership is shifting to individuals. I wouldn't have expected you to know this, it bursts your bubble of ignorance. Bullshit - you can say that there is a stockmarket and that is supposed to mean that your average rank and file Chinese citizen can own stock? that is such bullshit - that whole thing is set up to attract foreign investment capital and to also make it easier to reward the party bigwigs. Their system is more fascist than free-market capitalism. They could still take it all back and leave their overseas investors hanging - what you gonna do when they do that? Sue them? You've just proven you do not know what the hell you are talking about. The average citizen DOES OWN STOCK. Give up, you obviously are clueless about this subject. The average citizen in China doesn't own stock. Do you know what the per capita or average income level is in China? There are like 1.5 billion people over there. Can you show a cite where you an prove that the average chinese citizen owns stock?? You don't know what the **** you are talking about, why don't you just shut up idiot. I know many average chinese citizens. They own stock. The ability of the average Chinese person to live cheap and save would put most Americans to shame. You know these citizens from where? You go over to China? I know them from China, twit. You're an idiot who writes before reading. I did go over to China, more times than I can remember. I lived there for several years. I have friends from many different income levels and from many different places including cities and the country side. You obviously know nothing about China other than a few things you read in the paper. As you've now shown, even your reading skills are limited. I'm done talking to you. Go troll somehwere else. You went over to China more times than you can remember? Where did you lve in China? If the Red Chinese let you over there, they didn't let you run all over the country and see all the poverty and the people who had no democratic freedom. Keep going, you're showing more of your ignorance. Are you saying that that I am somehow ignorant of the decrease in poverty and the increase in democratic freedoms in China? Back it up - and by something that can be proven - not just you saying that you lived in China, which itself proves noting - since you can't prove you lived there and I can't check it out. I can check out cites thatr you provide, but perhaps that is why you haven't provided any. If they can buy stocks, they can only buy the stocks the commie *******s want them to buy. Sure, whatever you say. Moron - I haven't said anything - I WRITE to post on USENET - no wonder you have problems understanding logic. You make Red China sound like a bastion of freedom, democracy and capitalism. Maybe you should talk to some Tibetans - they just love the Red Chinese. Maybe you should just go the **** back there and live - r starve. I don't care - either way you are a ****ing moron who can't make a logical argument and can't cite any facts to back up your claim. I've backed up my claims, I have personal knowledge of the subject. You only have a few distorted newspaper articles and an obvious predjudice that has prevented you from learning much about what has happened in China over the last 20 years. Get your head out of the paper. Go experience life and then report back in a few years. Ni bu zhe dao Zhonggua. Ni tai ben. Ni zui zui ben. Zaijian shagua. And no, I did not need any help to write that. Go figure it out troll. YOu have backed up nothing - you claim that you are right because you lived in China. I don't know you (and don't want to know you), and you can't prove that you lived there and there is no way to validate your claims anyway. You offer no cites for facts to back up your claims, unlike the ones that I have provided. One of my bext friends from college is from Taiwan. He was very active in the political system over there about 5 years ago, and he relocated his business to mainland China because he speaks the language and he would have a competitive advantage over people located in the states. Talking with him when he comes back to the USA, and exchanging e-mail, he tells me of a China that is definately not the China that you write about. So what accounts for that difference? Probably because you are full of shit and have never been to China. Another associate of mine is a retired executive/engineer for an American/Canadian company who worked in China for 5 years, retiring from that job in mid 2004. He tells me the same thing that my other friend who lives in China - the economy sucks and there is no democracy for the average Chinese worker. Also he tells me that it is not uncommon to see workers missing body parts or otherwise severely injured because there are no workplace safety and health protections in China. So how are they better off than we are? I roomed with a very cute girl from Taiwan, who has a mother and sisters over in Taiwan. I also have two friends who teach college-level courses in Taiwan. They all watch the mainland and they say that things aren't as good as you claim them to be. So I ask you again - do you have anything other than your word to back up your claim that things in China are doing great? You say don't read the newspapers - but what should I read for factual information to back up your claims? Can you cite just 3 sources of information that back up your claims? If you can't - you lose and shut the **** up! |
Read to the end - Oscar is a ****ing traitor - line his ass up against
the wall! Oscar_Lives wrote: "USENET READER" wrote in message nk.net... Neill wrote: "USENET READER" wrote in message thlink.net... You don't know what the **** you are talking about, why don't you just shut up idiot. I know many average chinese citizens. They own stock. The ability of the average Chinese person to live cheap and save would put most Americans to shame. You know these citizens from where? You go over to China? What is the per capita income in China? You are so ****ing full of shit- it's not like they make American wages and live in poverty by choice. A repressed demofag, aren't you a joy! Talking about personal attacks? You don't have any information or cites to back up your claims, so you call someone a fag. What kind of a fart-shiffing, crypto-fascists Bush lover are you? China is getting rich on the imbalance of trade with the USA and from US investments, not from slave-labor chinese workers buying stock. The imbalance of trade ends up enriching the ChiCom officials and their US Investors, and they end up owning more and more of US debt - they really can't do anything else with all that money! Doucheboy - why don't you come up with some numbers to prove your point - what percentage of Chinese workers own stock, what is the per capita income of those workers, and what percentage of their income do they invest in the Chinese stock market? Or do you mean Chinese people living and investing in the US market? Personal attacks a point don't make. Dickhead. And do I want to live in ****ing squallor in the US just to make you feel happy and superior - and to make some rich puke even richer? I doubt you live in squalor, fag boy. Sorry dingleberry - my famly came from Italy and Slovakia, and those days of anyone from my family dancing on the end of a string for the Man while living on some feudal manor and owing my soul to the Company Store are ****ing over - you hear me? You and the rest of you rich cocksuckers had better realize that your $7.00 rent a cops aren't gonna protect you from the masses when we get ****ed and rise up to come after you behind the walls of your gated community. And if you don't live behind those gates - why the **** are you standing up for those rich pukes anyway? No, but say hello to my Colt .45 According to the news sources I have, even though the companies are being privatized, the new owners are still the party elite and their overseas business partners. Employee or other non-management stock ownership is being held to 20% or less. So how the **** can you say that the average Chinese citizen owns stock? Prove it - show me a cite! Because I have many friends in China. I've done better than read a few news articles, I've lived there. Right - did you move to china before or after your cousin pulled the wrench out of the door of his car? What city and province did you live in and why were you there in the first place. Because where you lived - if you did live there - certainly colored your perspective of what is an average Chinese person. If you lived in a big city, you might have been living with a shitload of Chinese people, but they were far from average - they were the top of the economic pile in China. What's with the class division, fag boy? Are you not only repressed, but poor, too. Damn, that's what you get for believing the communist lies your faggot friends were telling you. Be careful, they only want to **** you in the ass, but then, I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, eh, fag boy? When asked for a cite, all you can do is cal me a fag - that means you don't have a ****ing clue. I on the other hand can show cites that Chinese labor doesn't own stock and that companies like Wal Mart actually hurt American workers more than they help them: From http://cecd.aers.psu.edu/pubs/PovertyResearchWM.pdf Wal-Mart and County-Wide Poverty October 18, 2004 AERS STAFF PAPER No. 371 Conclusion After carefully and comprehensively accounting for other local determinants of poverty, we find that the presence of Wal-Mart unequivocally raised family poverty rates in US counties during the 1990s relative to places that had no such stores. This was true not only as a consequence of existing stores in a county in 1987, but it was also an independent outcome of the location of new stores between 1987 and 1998. The question whether the cost of relatively higher poverty in a county is offset by the benefits of lower prices and wider choices available to consumers associated with a Wal-Mart store cannot be answered here. However, if Wal-Mart does contribute to a higher poverty rate, then it is not bearing the full economic and social costs of its business practices. Instead, Wal-Mart transfers income from the working poor and from taxpayers though welfare-programs directed at the poor to stockholders and the heirs of the Wal-Mart fortune, as well as to consumers. These transfers are in addition to the public infrastructure subsidies often provided by local communities. Regardless of the distributional effects, the Wal-Mart business model appears to extract cumulative rents that exceed those earned by owners of other corporations, including Microsoft. From http://edworkforce.house.gov/democra...MARTREPORT.pdf EVERYDAY LOW WAGES: THE HIDDEN PRICE WE ALL PAY FOR WAL-MART A REPORT BY THE DEMOCRATIC STAFF OF THE COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND THE WORKFORCE U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES REPRESENTATIVE GEORGE MILLER (D-CA), SENIOR DEMOCRAT FEBRUARY 16, 2004 Wal-Mart maintains an extensive global network of 10,000 suppliers.74 Whether American, Bangladeshi, Chinese, or Honduran, Wal-Mart plays these producers against one another in search of lower and lower prices. American suppliers have been forced to relocate their businesses overseas to maintain Wal-Mart contracts.75 Overseas manufacturers are forced to engage in cutthroat competition that further erodes wages and working conditions of what often already are sweatshops. To keep up with the pressure to produce ever cheaper goods, factories force employees to work overtime or work for weeks without a day off. A Bangladeshi factory worker told the Los Angeles Times that employees at her factory worked from 8 a.m. to 3 a.m. for 10 and 15 day stretches just to meet Wal-Mart price demands. And still, Wal-Mart’sgeneral manager for Bangladesh complained of his country’s factories, telling the Los Angeles Times, “I think they need to improve. When I entered a factory in China, it seemed they are very fast.”76 While low-wage jobs displace higher-paid manufacturing jobs in the United States, undercutting living standards at home, living standards abroad are not reaping the benefits one might expect. Reports indicate that Wal-Mart’s bargaining power is able to maintain low wages and poor working conditions among its foreign suppliers. The Washington Post has explained: “As capital scours the globe for cheaper and more malleable workers, and as poor countries seek multinational companies to provide jobs, lift production, and open export markets, Wal-Mart and China have forged themselves into the ultimate joint venture, their symbiosis influencing the terms of labor and consumption the world over.”77 Thanks to a ban on independent trade unions and a lack of other basic human rights, China offers Wal-Mart a highly-disciplined and cheap workforce. A Chinese labor official who asked to remain anonymous for fear of punishment told the Washington Post that “Wal-Mart pressures the factory to cut its price, and the factory responds with longer hours or lower pay. And the workers have no options.”78 One employee of a Chinese supplier described the difficulties of surviving on $75 per month. She could rarely afford to buy meat, and her family largely subsisted on vegetables. Over four years, she had not received a single salary increase.79 Wal-Mart has countered that it insists that its suppliers enforce labor standards and comply with Chinese law. One-hundred Wal-Mart auditors inspect Chinese plants, and the company has suspended contracts with about 400 suppliers, mainly for violating overtime limits. An additional 72 factories were permanently blacklisted in 2003 for violating child labor standards. Still, critics point out that the Wal-Mart does not regularly inspect smaller factories that use middlemen to sell to the company. Nor does it inspect the factories of subcontractors. A Chinese labor organizer explained that the inspections are “ineffective,” since Wal-Mart usually notifies the factories in advance. The factories “often prepare by cleaning up, creating fake time sheets and briefing workers on what to say.”80 The factories themselves complain that, because Wal-Mart demands such low prices, they have slim profit margins – if any. A manager of one Chinese supplier told the Washington Post, “In the beginning, we made money … But when Wal-Mart started to launch nationwide distribution, they pressured us for a special price below our cost. Now, we’re losing money on every box, while Wal-Mart is making more money.”81 Obviously, one way to regain a profit for such suppliers would be to begin cutting back on labor costs. Finally, as testament to Wal-Mart’s stalwart anti-union policy, none of its 31 stores in China are unionized, despite the fact that the Communist Party-controlled official union has told the company that it would not help workers fight for higher pay.82 Oddly enough, Article 10 of China’s Trade Union Law requires that any establishment with 25 or more workers must have a union. Wal-Mart, however, claims that it has received assurances from the central government that it need not allow unions in any of its stores.83 As one reporter has explained, “The explanation for the apparent contradiction may be that the government’s desire for foreigninvestment and jobs trumps any concern for workers’ rights. That wouldn’t be surprising in the Chinese environment, where strikes are forbidden and the official labor grouping actively supports the government’s efforts to block the rise of independent unions.”84 With China, any company in search of pliant and cheap labor has found a perfect mix of cooperative government officials and workers made submissive through fear. How the **** can anyone who hasn't had a wage increase in years and can't afford to put food on the table and works from 8 AM until 3 AM afford to buy stock? When do they find the time to run down to the stock broker's office to make their purchase? Or do they do it on line? Management decides what to build, labor decides whether they will do it well or not. Some choose to be sloppy. And who should put quality control on the assembly line to catch that shit? Management should have but didn't. Sure, point the finger at everyone but yourself. Ever hear of accountability? No? I guess not, because you want to blame God for making you a fag. Instead of taking responsibility for yourself., you want everyone else to be responsible for you. Too bad, fag boy! Again - what an asshole - when given an example of something that you can't refute, you call me a fag. Clearly the loser in this thread is you - you can't even make a logical arguent to support your claims and cannot offer cites in support of your claims. And MANY, MANY, MANY more DO HAVE A CHOICE, and choose cheap. Sorry - very very very very very few people actually have a choice on what to buy these days - they aren't the buyers for the stores and don't have a say on what goes on the shelves. Do you think that customers tell Wal-Mart what to put on the shelves to sell? **** no - Wal-Mart tells vendors what they will buy an item for, and in fact tells them to move the production over to China in order to make it cheaper. GE did that too with many of the vendors who supplied parts for GE consumer products. When a company like Wal-Mart moves close to one in four of a growing number of products sold in the country, the customer has damn little to say about where things are made, expecially when the loss of those jobs forces people to buy cheaper stuff to make their money last longer. It's a race to the bottom. Sorry, but, Wal-Mart gives their customers what they want, whether you like or not, fag boy! Quit worrying about everybody else, and get a life. Do people know that when they shop at Wal-Mart, they are shopping themselves out of jobs? Quit selling out your birthright and your country you ****ing fascist asshole - and get ready for the time when we put your ass against the wall and shoot you with the rest of the pukes. You want a blindfold, or not? Menthol or regular? From http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html The Wal-Mart You Don't Know The giant retailer's low prices often come with a high cost. Wal-Mart's relentless pressure can crush the companies it does business with and force them to send jobs overseas. Are we shopping our way straight to the unemployment line? Therein lies the basic conundrum of doing business with the world's largest retailer. By selling a gallon of kosher dills for less than most grocers sell a quart, Wal-Mart may have provided a ser-vice for its customers. But what did it do for Vlasic? The pickle maker had spent decades convincing customers that they should pay a premium for its brand. Now Wal-Mart was practically giving them away. And the fevered buying spree that resulted distorted every aspect of Vlasic's operations, from farm field to factory to financial statement. Indeed, as Vlasic discovered, the real story of Wal-Mart, the story that never gets told, is the story of the pressure the biggest retailer relentlessly applies to its suppliers in the name of bringing us "every day low prices." It's the story of what that pressure does to the companies Wal-Mart does business with, to U.S. manufacturing, and to the economy as a whole. That story can be found floating in a gallon jar of pickles at Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart wields its power for just one purpose: to bring the lowest possible prices to its customers. At Wal-Mart, that goal is never reached. The retailer has a clear policy for suppliers: On basic products that don't change, the price Wal-Mart will pay, and will charge shoppers, must drop year after year. But what almost no one outside the world of Wal-Mart and its 21,000 suppliers knows is the high cost of those low prices. Wal-Mart has the power to squeeze profit-killing concessions from vendors. To survive in the face of its pricing demands, makers of everything from bras to bicycles to blue jeans have had to lay off employees and close U.S. plants in favor of outsourcing products from overseas. One way to think of Wal-Mart is as a vast pipeline that gives non-U.S. companies direct access to the American market. "One of the things that limits or slows the growth of imports is the cost of establishing connections and networks," says Paul Krugman, the Princeton University economist. "Wal-Mart is so big and so centralized that it can all at once hook Chinese and other suppliers into its digital system. So--wham!--you have a large switch to overseas sourcing in a period quicker than under the old rules of retailing." Steve Dobbins has been bearing the brunt of that switch. He's president and CEO of Carolina Mills, a 75-year-old North Carolina company that supplies thread, yarn, and textile finishing to apparel makers--half of which supply Wal-Mart. Carolina Mills grew steadily until 2000. But in the past three years, as its customers have gone either overseas or out of business, it has shrunk from 17 factories to 7, and from 2,600 employees to 1,200. Dobbins's customers have begun to face imported clothing sold so cheaply to Wal-Mart that they could not compete even if they paid their workers nothing. "People ask, 'How can it be bad for things to come into the U.S. cheaply? How can it be bad to have a bargain at Wal-Mart?' Sure, it's held inflation down, and it's great to have bargains," says Dobbins. "But you can't buy anything if you're not employed. We are shopping ourselves out of jobs." I'm a ****ing Wal-Mart stockholder! I am cleaning up while you pout about your steward job that went down the drain. And you're proud of that? You make money from a company that takes good jobs from workers and replaces them with crappy jobs that pay less with fewer benefits. A company that gets corporate welfare it doesn't need, and that sends so much money over to China that will eventually come back in the form of a Chinese military power that will threaten our freedom. You sir are a ****ing traitor! I never worked as a steward - one more thing you are obviously so wrong about. |
Tom Disque wrote: On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 20:14:32 GMT, USENET READER wrote: Tom Disque wrote: On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:08:57 GMT, USENET READER wrote: Tom Disque wrote: On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 02:06:01 GMT, USENET READER wrote: Oscar_Lives wrote: [snip] And don't forget all the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who strangle productivity because of stupid labor rules that require 5 shovel-leaners for every one worker. Hey **** you - if it hadn't been for those brave union workers who put their lives and jobs on the line, we wouldn't have the workplace and wage protections that we have now - 40 hour workweek, overtime protection, workpace health and safety protection. In fact, all the protections you have today are due to unions and other liberal ideas. SO unless you want to be the first on the boat to go back and work in some slave labor factory in China just for the sake of showing that the bosses are always right and good, then shut the **** up! [snip] Those brave union workers who put their lives and jobs on the line are not the same people as the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who strangle productivity because of stupid labor rules. What stupid labor rules are you referring to? Those rules are simply a contract to deliver labor to management in a specific way. Instead of management telling you what to do and how to do it and you having no say other than to quit if you don't like it, labor and management negotiates the rules by which the work gets done. It's like delivering any other service - you just don't like the fact that these workers have rights that you don't have. Are you envious or jealous? why not admit it instead of calling these workers names because you can't handle it? I simply cut 'n' pasted what you and Oscar said and pasted them together, to emphasize that you aren't talking about the same people. Did you not notice the exact same wording, or do you not read what you write? I DO think it is ridiculous to require a union electrician to plug in equipment, though. Depends on where you are plugging stuff into and what else is plugged into that circuit? I work in photography and when I go up to NYC to photograph a dancer in a Broadway show (as I did last summer), I can't just plug into any old wall outlet. I don't know what the outlet is rated for, what else is plugged in there, etc. So I get a union guy to do it. He or she is responsible for knowing the condition of the electrical capacity in the building or theater. He comes and checks out my equipment, makes sure it isn't gonna blow up their electrical outlets or in any way keep them from putting on a show. He knows if the outlet is live and if not, how to turn it on. He knowns if it is switched off for a reason - it needs to be repaired or perhaps other things are plugged into it and need to be switched on and off for the show. There are all sorts of pratical reasons why you need a union electrician to do that work - would you want to plug in some cheap-assed made in China electrical device and blow out an entire electrical panel and keep a Broadway show from starting on time? I know also that when my grandmother was n a nursing home, you couldn't plug in any electrical devices into the wall without first having them checked out by the custodial staff. You wouldn't want someone plugging in some crappy old non-grounded lamp and tripping the breakers and grandma's O2 generator goes out - would you? You make some good points that I had not considered. I've really got no dog in this fight. I think both of you are partly correct. I know full well that I would not enjoy the benefits that I have if it were not for the union organizers of yesteryear. I also know that the demands of some unions became excessive in the 60s and 70s, and that some unions at certain points in time were infested by the mob. I am not endorsing any illegal or excessive actions by any unions or groups that supported them, but do you not see that there is a difference between labor and management? So what if the demands of the unions were excessive? Are the demands of management any less so? Are any of these superstar CEOs worth the money they are paid for driving companies into bankruptcy? Are the corporate directors - who are managers in other companies themselves - acting in the stockholders best interests or their own selfish interest? So what if the mob got into the pension funds of unions - do you not think that there is much more money being made illegally by groups other than unions and mobs these days with all the greedy CEOs? Know what Vito Corleone told his sons - "A lawyer with a briefcase can steal more money than a hood with a gun!" And in the front of that same book - "Behind every great fortune - there is a crime!" Look at the world's great fortunes and you will see crime - from Rockefeller, to Getty, to Gates, Bush and Cheney. The Walton family fortune also comes from crime - from hiring illegals to clean up stores that are illegally locked down at night, to making employees work off the clock, etc. Mostly, I wanted to point out to the two of you that you were comparing apples and oranges. The people who started the unions are not the same people (or even the same quality of people) who run the unions today. So what - are you saying that the people who run companies today are saints? Or that John Sweeney of the AFL-CIO is a crook like Ken Lay, Bernie Ebbers, and the rest of the ****ing corporate criminal elite? I think that John Sweeney is better educated and a better quality person than either Sam Gompers or Jimmy Hoffa? He ain't no crook, and he is a better quality person than the sociopaths who run today's corporations. |
USENET READER wrote:
C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that few power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the Craftsman brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in Taiwan (a democracy I have no problem doing business with) and Red China (perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country where the factories are owned by the state and staffed with slave labor). Are you stuck in the '80s? Most Chinese companies have been privatized. And who owns these private companies? Mostly it is well-connected members of the ChiCom party - so for all intents and purposes, it is still owned by those who run the government. Still stuck in the '80s. The ownership has been changing for quite a while now, but I would not have expected you to be informed enough to know this. No actually - your head is up your ass. Can you tell me who owns the private companies if not the party elite? They just privatized these factories and now they split the profits not with the workers, but with their American investors. So you tell me how while it has changed in shape, the end result isn't really different? Seems it's your head up your own ass. China's got a thriving stock market and ownership is shifting to individuals. I wouldn't have expected you to know this, it bursts your bubble of ignorance. Bullshit - you can say that there is a stockmarket and that is supposed to mean that your average rank and file Chinese citizen can own stock? that is such bullshit - that whole thing is set up to attract foreign investment capital and to also make it easier to reward the party bigwigs. Their system is more fascist than free-market capitalism. They could still take it all back and leave their overseas investors hanging - what you gonna do when they do that? Sue them? You've just proven you do not know what the hell you are talking about. The average citizen DOES OWN STOCK. Give up, you obviously are clueless about this subject. The average citizen in China doesn't own stock. Do you know what the per capita or average income level is in China? There are like 1.5 billion people over there. Can you show a cite where you an prove that the average chinese citizen owns stock?? You don't know what the **** you are talking about, why don't you just shut up idiot. I know many average chinese citizens. They own stock. The ability of the average Chinese person to live cheap and save would put most Americans to shame. You know these citizens from where? You go over to China? I know them from China, twit. You're an idiot who writes before reading. I did go over to China, more times than I can remember. I lived there for several years. I have friends from many different income levels and from many different places including cities and the country side. You obviously know nothing about China other than a few things you read in the paper. As you've now shown, even your reading skills are limited. I'm done talking to you. Go troll somehwere else. You went over to China more times than you can remember? Where did you lve in China? If the Red Chinese let you over there, they didn't let you run all over the country and see all the poverty and the people who had no democratic freedom. Keep going, you're showing more of your ignorance. Are you saying that that I am somehow ignorant of the decrease in poverty and the increase in democratic freedoms in China? Back it up - and by something that can be proven - not just you saying that you lived in China, which itself proves noting - since you can't prove you lived there and I can't check it out. I can check out cites thatr you provide, but perhaps that is why you haven't provided any. I don't have to prove shit to you moron. I lived in China. People who know me know it's a fact. Ever see a US passport that was issued at the Hong Kong consulate? Didn't think so, but I've got one. There's at least one person I work with who follows this NG. If I'm lying about living in China, I'm sure he'll say so. If they can buy stocks, they can only buy the stocks the commie *******s want them to buy. Sure, whatever you say. Moron - I haven't said anything - I WRITE to post on USENET - no wonder you have problems understanding logic. You are such a petty fool. You make Red China sound like a bastion of freedom, democracy and capitalism. Maybe you should talk to some Tibetans - they just love the Red Chinese. Maybe you should just go the **** back there and live - r starve. I don't care - either way you are a ****ing moron who can't make a logical argument and can't cite any facts to back up your claim. I've backed up my claims, I have personal knowledge of the subject. You only have a few distorted newspaper articles and an obvious predjudice that has prevented you from learning much about what has happened in China over the last 20 years. Get your head out of the paper. Go experience life and then report back in a few years. Ni bu zhe dao Zhonggua. Ni tai ben. Ni zui zui ben. Zaijian shagua. And no, I did not need any help to write that. Go figure it out troll. YOu have backed up nothing - you claim that you are right because you lived in China. I don't know you (and don't want to know you), and you can't prove that you lived there and there is no way to validate your claims anyway. You offer no cites for facts to back up your claims, unlike the ones that I have provided. I can prove I lived there, but you are not worth the time. Did your cite prove people can't, and don't, own stock? Nope. One of my bext friends from college is from Taiwan. He was very active in the political system over there about 5 years ago, and he relocated his business to mainland China because he speaks the language and he would have a competitive advantage over people located in the states. Talking with him when he comes back to the USA, and exchanging e-mail, he tells me of a China that is definately not the China that you write about. So what accounts for that difference? Probably because you are full of shit and have never been to China. What China have I written about? I've talked about common people being able to buy stocks. The rest of the things about democracy and freedom are things you added. Yet more examples of your inability to read and comprehend. Another associate of mine is a retired executive/engineer for an American/Canadian company who worked in China for 5 years, retiring from that job in mid 2004. He tells me the same thing that my other friend who lives in China - the economy sucks and there is no democracy for the average Chinese worker. Also he tells me that it is not uncommon to see workers missing body parts or otherwise severely injured because there are no workplace safety and health protections in China. So how are they better off than we are? Once again, you are showing you can't read. I never talked about any of this stuff, although I know all about it. Where did you get your ability to fabricate? I roomed with a very cute girl from Taiwan, who has a mother and sisters over in Taiwan. I also have two friends who teach college-level courses in Taiwan. They all watch the mainland and they say that things aren't as good as you claim them to be. Well isn't that special. I never claimed they were good. I said common people can, and do, buy stock. The rest is stuff you imagine I said. So I ask you again - do you have anything other than your word to back up your claim that things in China are doing great? You say don't read the newspapers - but what should I read for factual information to back up your claims? Can you cite just 3 sources of information that back up your claims? If you can't - you lose and shut the **** up! I told you. Go there. Visit some farms in the country side. Work in 15 to 20 cities. Talk to some (mainland) Chinese instead of just Taiwanese who's view of mainland China is biased. Marry one, instead of rooming with a "cute girl from Taiwan". Once you've done some of these things, you'll have a better idea of what China is like. Later troll. |
Edward M. Kennedy wrote: wrote Like what? It's a false dichotomy. You don't need a *union* guy to do that -- you need a *qualified* guy to do that. The "union" guy may be *more* likely to have BS certification for all you know. You know, get passed along by the bureaucracy like in a public school? It's a similar thing for doctors and lawyers. I'm not against their certification, I'm against the monopoly in deciding who gets to practice medicine or law at all. Interesting. How could the monopoly be eliminated and allow unbiased certification. Reputation. A medical standards group that racks up a lot of bozos with malpractice suits is dead in the water. Right now, the system is not only biased, there's not much feedback. There's no shortage of certification systems in the private market. A bachelors degree in engineering from an *accredited* university is also a form accredation. Microsoft does a lot too, as does the Red Cross for lifeguards. You raise an interesting point. The problem is that those certifications and degrees cost money out front before you even get a job that might not be there when you graduate. One of the things that a union has done in the past is to have a system for new workers to come into a system as a helper or apprentice and work and learn at the same time, until they passed some sort of certification. And they didn't have to take out loans or pay someone to teach them - they learned on the job while they were getting paid. And while they were learning, they had job protection. What could possibly be wrong with that? Hey, I used to be a lifeguard! And you don't always need a formal education. Dweezil did not need a *union* electrician, he just needed an electrician. How he fobbed that off is beyond me, especially with most localities requiring electricians to be licensed to boot. Disingenuous... One way to earn that certification or license is to work with a qualified person for a certain period of time and then pass a test. What problem could you possibly have with that? I mean - a person who has a license and is certified and properly trained will probably wire your house better than a guy who never took a class, never worked alongside a certified electrician, never apprenticed, etc. |
"USENET READER" wrote Reputation. A medical standards group that racks up a lot of bozos with malpractice suits is dead in the water. Right now, the system is not only biased, there's not much feedback. There's no shortage of certification systems in the private market. A bachelors degree in engineering from an *accredited* university is also a form accredation. Microsoft does a lot too, as does the Red Cross for lifeguards. You raise an interesting point. The problem is that those certifications and degrees cost money out front before you even get a job that might not be there when you graduate. If you can't hold a job and earn certifications from Microsoft at the same time, you aren't very employable to begin with. "Would you like to supersize that?" And don't leave the nest until you can fly. One of the things that a union has done in the past is to have a system for new workers to come into a system as a helper or apprentice and work and learn at the same time, until they passed some sort of certification. And they didn't have to take out loans or pay someone to teach them - they learned on the job while they were getting paid. And while they were learning, they had job protection. What could possibly be wrong with that? Nothing. The false dichotomy (again) is that you need a union to have apprenticeships. Many, many professions have some form of this. --Ted |
On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 12:23:17 -0500, "Edward M. Kennedy"
wrote: "Tom Disque" wrote I work in photography and when I go up to NYC to photograph a dancer in a Broadway show (as I did last summer), I can't just plug into any old wall outlet. I don't know what the outlet is rated for, what else is plugged in there, etc. So I get a union guy to do it. He or she is responsible for knowing the condition of the electrical capacity in the building or theater. He comes and checks out my equipment, makes sure it isn't gonna blow up their electrical outlets or in any way keep them from putting on a show. He knows if the outlet is live and if not, how to turn it on. He knowns if it is switched off for a reason - it needs to be repaired or perhaps other things are plugged into it and need to be switched on and off for the show. There are all sorts of pratical reasons why you need a union electrician to do that work - would you want to plug in some cheap-assed made in China electrical device and blow out an entire electrical panel and keep a Broadway show from starting on time? I know also that when my grandmother was n a nursing home, you couldn't plug in any electrical devices into the wall without first having them checked out by the custodial staff. You wouldn't want someone plugging in some crappy old non-grounded lamp and tripping the breakers and grandma's O2 generator goes out - would you? You make some good points that I had not considered. Like what? It's a false dichotomy. You don't need a *union* guy to do that -- you need a *qualified* guy to do that. The "union" guy may be *more* likely to have BS certification for all you know. You know, get passed along by the bureaucracy like in a public school? It's a similar thing for doctors and lawyers. I'm not against their certification, I'm against the monopoly in deciding who gets to practice medicine or law at all. --Ted You make better points! |
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 04:16:49 GMT, USENET READER
wrote: Tom Disque wrote: On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 20:14:32 GMT, USENET READER wrote: Tom Disque wrote: On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:08:57 GMT, USENET READER wrote: Tom Disque wrote: On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 02:06:01 GMT, USENET READER wrote: Oscar_Lives wrote: [snip] And don't forget all the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who strangle productivity because of stupid labor rules that require 5 shovel-leaners for every one worker. Hey **** you - if it hadn't been for those brave union workers who put their lives and jobs on the line, we wouldn't have the workplace and wage protections that we have now - 40 hour workweek, overtime protection, workpace health and safety protection. In fact, all the protections you have today are due to unions and other liberal ideas. SO unless you want to be the first on the boat to go back and work in some slave labor factory in China just for the sake of showing that the bosses are always right and good, then shut the **** up! [snip] Those brave union workers who put their lives and jobs on the line are not the same people as the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who strangle productivity because of stupid labor rules. What stupid labor rules are you referring to? Those rules are simply a contract to deliver labor to management in a specific way. Instead of management telling you what to do and how to do it and you having no say other than to quit if you don't like it, labor and management negotiates the rules by which the work gets done. It's like delivering any other service - you just don't like the fact that these workers have rights that you don't have. Are you envious or jealous? why not admit it instead of calling these workers names because you can't handle it? I simply cut 'n' pasted what you and Oscar said and pasted them together, to emphasize that you aren't talking about the same people. Did you not notice the exact same wording, or do you not read what you write? I DO think it is ridiculous to require a union electrician to plug in equipment, though. Depends on where you are plugging stuff into and what else is plugged into that circuit? I work in photography and when I go up to NYC to photograph a dancer in a Broadway show (as I did last summer), I can't just plug into any old wall outlet. I don't know what the outlet is rated for, what else is plugged in there, etc. So I get a union guy to do it. He or she is responsible for knowing the condition of the electrical capacity in the building or theater. He comes and checks out my equipment, makes sure it isn't gonna blow up their electrical outlets or in any way keep them from putting on a show. He knows if the outlet is live and if not, how to turn it on. He knowns if it is switched off for a reason - it needs to be repaired or perhaps other things are plugged into it and need to be switched on and off for the show. There are all sorts of pratical reasons why you need a union electrician to do that work - would you want to plug in some cheap-assed made in China electrical device and blow out an entire electrical panel and keep a Broadway show from starting on time? I know also that when my grandmother was n a nursing home, you couldn't plug in any electrical devices into the wall without first having them checked out by the custodial staff. You wouldn't want someone plugging in some crappy old non-grounded lamp and tripping the breakers and grandma's O2 generator goes out - would you? You make some good points that I had not considered. I've really got no dog in this fight. I think both of you are partly correct. I know full well that I would not enjoy the benefits that I have if it were not for the union organizers of yesteryear. I also know that the demands of some unions became excessive in the 60s and 70s, and that some unions at certain points in time were infested by the mob. I am not endorsing any illegal or excessive actions by any unions or groups that supported them, but do you not see that there is a difference between labor and management? If ny 'labor' you mean 'labor leaders', then no. Union leaders are, by and large, are just another layer of management. So what if the demands of the unions were excessive? Are the demands of management any less so? Why should one justify the other? Are any of these superstar CEOs worth the money they are paid for driving companies into bankruptcy? HELL no! Are the corporate directors - who are managers in other companies themselves - acting in the stockholders best interests or their own selfish interest? their own selfish interest, of course! So what if the mob got into the pension funds of unions - do you not think that there is much more money being made illegally by groups other than unions and mobs these days with all the greedy CEOs? So we should all act like greedy CEOs? Know what Vito Corleone told his sons - "A lawyer with a briefcase can steal more money than a hood with a gun!" And in the front of that same book - "Behind every great fortune - there is a crime!" Look at the world's great fortunes and you will see crime - from Rockefeller, to Getty, to Gates, Bush and Cheney. The Walton family fortune also comes from crime - from hiring illegals to clean up stores that are illegally locked down at night, to making employees work off the clock, etc. Well, you've convinced me! Let's all become criminals! Mostly, I wanted to point out to the two of you that you were comparing apples and oranges. The people who started the unions are not the same people (or even the same quality of people) who run the unions today. So what - are you saying that the people who run companies today are saints? No. I wasn't saying ANYTHING about companies. You're using GWB logic ("Yer for us or agin' us!"). The union workers I know would be revolted by the idea of their morals being determined by CEOs. Or that John Sweeney of the AFL-CIO is a crook like Ken Lay, Bernie Ebbers, and the rest of the ****ing corporate criminal elite? I think that John Sweeney is better educated and a better quality person than either Sam Gompers or Jimmy Hoffa? He ain't no crook, and he is a better quality person than the sociopaths who run today's corporations. Perhaps, but that has nothing to do with what I said. I was comparing him with those idealistic folks who started the unions, not the CEOs who currently run the companies. Did you read what I wrote? |
"Tom Disque" wrote
You make better points! Fanks. Tossing folks a bone now and then is always a good idea. --Ted |
C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that few power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the Craftsman brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in Taiwan (a democracy I have no problem doing business with) and Red China (perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country where the factories are owned by the state and staffed with slave labor). Are you stuck in the '80s? Most Chinese companies have been privatized. And who owns these private companies? Mostly it is well-connected members of the ChiCom party - so for all intents and purposes, it is still owned by those who run the government. Still stuck in the '80s. The ownership has been changing for quite a while now, but I would not have expected you to be informed enough to know this. No actually - your head is up your ass. Can you tell me who owns the private companies if not the party elite? They just privatized these factories and now they split the profits not with the workers, but with their American investors. So you tell me how while it has changed in shape, the end result isn't really different? Seems it's your head up your own ass. China's got a thriving stock market and ownership is shifting to individuals. I wouldn't have expected you to know this, it bursts your bubble of ignorance. Bullshit - you can say that there is a stockmarket and that is supposed to mean that your average rank and file Chinese citizen can own stock? that is such bullshit - that whole thing is set up to attract foreign investment capital and to also make it easier to reward the party bigwigs. Their system is more fascist than free-market capitalism. They could still take it all back and leave their overseas investors hanging - what you gonna do when they do that? Sue them? You've just proven you do not know what the hell you are talking about. The average citizen DOES OWN STOCK. Give up, you obviously are clueless about this subject. The average citizen in China doesn't own stock. Do you know what the per capita or average income level is in China? There are like 1.5 billion people over there. Can you show a cite where you an prove that the average chinese citizen owns stock?? You don't know what the **** you are talking about, why don't you just shut up idiot. I know many average chinese citizens. They own stock. The ability of the average Chinese person to live cheap and save would put most Americans to shame. You know these citizens from where? You go over to China? I know them from China, twit. You're an idiot who writes before reading. I did go over to China, more times than I can remember. I lived there for several years. I have friends from many different income levels and from many different places including cities and the country side. You obviously know nothing about China other than a few things you read in the paper. As you've now shown, even your reading skills are limited. I'm done talking to you. Go troll somehwere else. You went over to China more times than you can remember? Where did you lve in China? If the Red Chinese let you over there, they didn't let you run all over the country and see all the poverty and the people who had no democratic freedom. Keep going, you're showing more of your ignorance. Are you saying that that I am somehow ignorant of the decrease in poverty and the increase in democratic freedoms in China? Back it up - and by something that can be proven - not just you saying that you lived in China, which itself proves noting - since you can't prove you lived there and I can't check it out. I can check out cites thatr you provide, but perhaps that is why you haven't provided any. I don't have to prove shit to you moron. I lived in China. People who know me know it's a fact. Ever see a US passport that was issued at the Hong Kong consulate? Didn't think so, but I've got one. There's at least one person I work with who follows this NG. If I'm lying about living in China, I'm sure he'll say so. YOu could say you lived on the moon, shared a peanut-butter and banana sandwich with Elvis last night, and have of of your loser friends back you up - but it doesn't make it true. If they can buy stocks, they can only buy the stocks the commie *******s want them to buy. Sure, whatever you say. Moron - I haven't said anything - I WRITE to post on USENET - no wonder you have problems understanding logic. You are such a petty fool. Words mean something - talking is not the same as writing. Anyone who doesn't understand that there is a difference between talking and writing is a moron - or a Republican (same thing). You make Red China sound like a bastion of freedom, democracy and capitalism. Maybe you should talk to some Tibetans - they just love the Red Chinese. Maybe you should just go the **** back there and live - r starve. I don't care - either way you are a ****ing moron who can't make a logical argument and can't cite any facts to back up your claim. I've backed up my claims, I have personal knowledge of the subject. You only have a few distorted newspaper articles and an obvious predjudice that has prevented you from learning much about what has happened in China over the last 20 years. Get your head out of the paper. Go experience life and then report back in a few years. Ni bu zhe dao Zhonggua. Ni tai ben. Ni zui zui ben. Zaijian shagua. And no, I did not need any help to write that. Go figure it out troll. YOu have backed up nothing - you claim that you are right because you lived in China. I don't know you (and don't want to know you), and you can't prove that you lived there and there is no way to validate your claims anyway. You offer no cites for facts to back up your claims, unlike the ones that I have provided. I can prove I lived there, but you are not worth the time. Did your cite prove people can't, and don't, own stock? Nope. My cites proved that average people in China don't have rights, and don't earn enough money to put food on the table - from that any intelligent person would realize that they wouldn't be starving to invest in stocks and buy TVs and cars and cell phones. Per capita income in China according to Business Week is $1000 a year - how much ****ing stock can you buy at that level? Furthermore, China's high population and the "one-child" policy is causing another problem which would lead any thinking person to conclude that workers aren't buying much stock. The Chinese old-age pension system is broke, and with every worker supporting his or her parents and their two parents, for a total of 6 other people, how are they going to eat, live, raise their own kid, take care of parents and family, and invest in the market? One of my bext friends from college is from Taiwan. He was very active in the political system over there about 5 years ago, and he relocated his business to mainland China because he speaks the language and he would have a competitive advantage over people located in the states. Talking with him when he comes back to the USA, and exchanging e-mail, he tells me of a China that is definately not the China that you write about. So what accounts for that difference? Probably because you are full of shit and have never been to China. What China have I written about? I've talked about common people being able to buy stocks. The rest of the things about democracy and freedom are things you added. Yet more examples of your inability to read and comprehend. Dinglebarry - since I have not met you personally - you only wrote about China in your posting, you could not "talk" about it. I read and comprehend perfectly - you can't talk in print! You are a moron! Another associate of mine is a retired executive/engineer for an American/Canadian company who worked in China for 5 years, retiring from that job in mid 2004. He tells me the same thing that my other friend who lives in China - the economy sucks and there is no democracy for the average Chinese worker. Also he tells me that it is not uncommon to see workers missing body parts or otherwise severely injured because there are no workplace safety and health protections in China. So how are they better off than we are? Once again, you are showing you can't read. I never talked about any of this stuff, although I know all about it. Where did you get your ability to fabricate? I roomed with a very cute girl from Taiwan, who has a mother and sisters over in Taiwan. I also have two friends who teach college-level courses in Taiwan. They all watch the mainland and they say that things aren't as good as you claim them to be. Well isn't that special. I never claimed they were good. I said common people can, and do, buy stock. The rest is stuff you imagine I said. You wrote about it - not talked about it. And given what I wrote about and the cites I gave, it makes your claim that common people in China own stock rather unbelievable. Unless you care to back it up with some cites and facts like I did, you would fail to score points at any debate except for those held at the Rush Limbaugh fan club. So I ask you again - do you have anything other than your word to back up your claim that things in China are doing great? You say don't read the newspapers - but what should I read for factual information to back up your claims? Can you cite just 3 sources of information that back up your claims? If you can't - you lose and shut the **** up! I told you. Go there. Visit some farms in the country side. Work in 15 to 20 cities. Talk to some (mainland) Chinese instead of just Taiwanese who's view of mainland China is biased. Marry one, instead of rooming with a "cute girl from Taiwan". Once you've done some of these things, you'll have a better idea of what China is like. I don't have to go there - I can take the word of my friends who have lived on the mainland and and who live there now. I can base my opinion on the articles published by sources on both sides of the political aisle. I know what China is like now and I damn sure wouldn't want to live there now. I rather like not living in filth and squallor, with blackouts and horrible public health problems, and having to worry about losing a finger, arm or other body parts working in factories with no workplace health and safety protection. If you liked it so much - why don't you go the **** back there to live? We damn sure don't need anymore people trying to turn the US into China with a race to the bottom. |
Edward M. Kennedy wrote: "USENET READER" wrote Reputation. A medical standards group that racks up a lot of bozos with malpractice suits is dead in the water. Right now, the system is not only biased, there's not much feedback. There's no shortage of certification systems in the private market. A bachelors degree in engineering from an *accredited* university is also a form accredation. Microsoft does a lot too, as does the Red Cross for lifeguards. You raise an interesting point. The problem is that those certifications and degrees cost money out front before you even get a job that might not be there when you graduate. If you can't hold a job and earn certifications from Microsoft at the same time, you aren't very employable to begin with. Sorry - many people who work today have to work long and hard hours and their lives aren't their own. Most people have to not only get this certification apart from work, but they also have to pay for it on their own too! Someone who is told that they have to work tonight (when they should be going to their certification class) or they don't have to come in the next day has a tough choice to make. Getting your certification on the job is so much better. And it's tougher to pay for that very expensive certification if you don't have a job - that is some expensive shit! You can't even get the State to pay for it in a reasonable period of time - let's say taking classes at the McKimmon Center - because the classes are so much more expensive than at Wake Tech - where it will take a lot longer to complete the course work. "Would you like to supersize that?" And don't leave the nest until you can fly. One of the things that a union has done in the past is to have a system for new workers to come into a system as a helper or apprentice and work and learn at the same time, until they passed some sort of certification. And they didn't have to take out loans or pay someone to teach them - they learned on the job while they were getting paid. And while they were learning, they had job protection. What could possibly be wrong with that? Nothing. The false dichotomy (again) is that you need a union to have apprenticeships. Many, many professions have some form of this. --Ted Since few employees have the bargaining strength these days (relative to their employers) to negotiate for paid on the job training, unions do help with that. Name me a profession that isn't unionized that have apprenticeships? And don't say medicine, because that is apples and oranges. |
Tom Disque wrote:
On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 12:23:17 -0500, "Edward M. Kennedy" wrote: "Tom Disque" wrote I work in photography and when I go up to NYC to photograph a dancer in a Broadway show (as I did last summer), I can't just plug into any old wall outlet. I don't know what the outlet is rated for, what else is plugged in there, etc. So I get a union guy to do it. He or she is responsible for knowing the condition of the electrical capacity in the building or theater. He comes and checks out my equipment, makes sure it isn't gonna blow up their electrical outlets or in any way keep them from putting on a show. He knows if the outlet is live and if not, how to turn it on. He knowns if it is switched off for a reason - it needs to be repaired or perhaps other things are plugged into it and need to be switched on and off for the show. There are all sorts of pratical reasons why you need a union electrician to do that work - would you want to plug in some cheap-assed made in China electrical device and blow out an entire electrical panel and keep a Broadway show from starting on time? I know also that when my grandmother was n a nursing home, you couldn't plug in any electrical devices into the wall without first having them checked out by the custodial staff. You wouldn't want someone plugging in some crappy old non-grounded lamp and tripping the breakers and grandma's O2 generator goes out - would you? You make some good points that I had not considered. Like what? It's a false dichotomy. You don't need a *union* guy to do that -- you need a *qualified* guy to do that. The "union" guy may be *more* likely to have BS certification for all you know. You know, get passed along by the bureaucracy like in a public school? It's a similar thing for doctors and lawyers. I'm not against their certification, I'm against the monopoly in deciding who gets to practice medicine or law at all. --Ted You make better points! SO who signed your diploma saying you graduated from college, or certified that the college you went to was worth a damn? Or is that an OK monopoly in your view? |
Tom Disque wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 04:16:49 GMT, USENET READER wrote: Tom Disque wrote: On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 20:14:32 GMT, USENET READER wrote: Tom Disque wrote: On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:08:57 GMT, USENET READER wrote: Tom Disque wrote: On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 02:06:01 GMT, USENET READER wrote: Oscar_Lives wrote: [snip] And don't forget all the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who strangle productivity because of stupid labor rules that require 5 shovel-leaners for every one worker. Hey **** you - if it hadn't been for those brave union workers who put their lives and jobs on the line, we wouldn't have the workplace and wage protections that we have now - 40 hour workweek, overtime protection, workpace health and safety protection. In fact, all the protections you have today are due to unions and other liberal ideas. SO unless you want to be the first on the boat to go back and work in some slave labor factory in China just for the sake of showing that the bosses are always right and good, then shut the **** up! [snip] Those brave union workers who put their lives and jobs on the line are not the same people as the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who strangle productivity because of stupid labor rules. What stupid labor rules are you referring to? Those rules are simply a contract to deliver labor to management in a specific way. Instead of management telling you what to do and how to do it and you having no say other than to quit if you don't like it, labor and management negotiates the rules by which the work gets done. It's like delivering any other service - you just don't like the fact that these workers have rights that you don't have. Are you envious or jealous? why not admit it instead of calling these workers names because you can't handle it? I simply cut 'n' pasted what you and Oscar said and pasted them together, to emphasize that you aren't talking about the same people. Did you not notice the exact same wording, or do you not read what you write? I DO think it is ridiculous to require a union electrician to plug in equipment, though. Depends on where you are plugging stuff into and what else is plugged into that circuit? I work in photography and when I go up to NYC to photograph a dancer in a Broadway show (as I did last summer), I can't just plug into any old wall outlet. I don't know what the outlet is rated for, what else is plugged in there, etc. So I get a union guy to do it. He or she is responsible for knowing the condition of the electrical capacity in the building or theater. He comes and checks out my equipment, makes sure it isn't gonna blow up their electrical outlets or in any way keep them from putting on a show. He knows if the outlet is live and if not, how to turn it on. He knowns if it is switched off for a reason - it needs to be repaired or perhaps other things are plugged into it and need to be switched on and off for the show. There are all sorts of pratical reasons why you need a union electrician to do that work - would you want to plug in some cheap-assed made in China electrical device and blow out an entire electrical panel and keep a Broadway show from starting on time? I know also that when my grandmother was n a nursing home, you couldn't plug in any electrical devices into the wall without first having them checked out by the custodial staff. You wouldn't want someone plugging in some crappy old non-grounded lamp and tripping the breakers and grandma's O2 generator goes out - would you? You make some good points that I had not considered. I've really got no dog in this fight. I think both of you are partly correct. I know full well that I would not enjoy the benefits that I have if it were not for the union organizers of yesteryear. I also know that the demands of some unions became excessive in the 60s and 70s, and that some unions at certain points in time were infested by the mob. I am not endorsing any illegal or excessive actions by any unions or groups that supported them, but do you not see that there is a difference between labor and management? If ny 'labor' you mean 'labor leaders', then no. Union leaders are, by and large, are just another layer of management. Sorry - they are not. Maybe some labor leaders in the past were put on the boards of some companies, and they sold out, but today's labor leaders are aware of how recent leaders have sold out and are much more willing to take stands on principle like the leaders of old. So what if the demands of the unions were excessive? Are the demands of management any less so? Why should one justify the other? NO they are not - but the demands of labor are not unreasonable, They are not asking for something for nothing, unlike the CEOs. Todays union members want a decent job at a fair wage, health and pension benefits - a decent future for them and their families. Not to get filthy ****ing rich like these CEOs. You can't even compare the contract demands of labor unions today with the contracts that CEOs get whether or not they do anything worthwhile. Are any of these superstar CEOs worth the money they are paid for driving companies into bankruptcy? HELL no! Are the corporate directors - who are managers in other companies themselves - acting in the stockholders best interests or their own selfish interest? their own selfish interest, of course! So what if the mob got into the pension funds of unions - do you not think that there is much more money being made illegally by groups other than unions and mobs these days with all the greedy CEOs? So we should all act like greedy CEOs? The unions are not acting like greedy CEOs. How is asking for a fair wage, a pension and health care benefits being greedy? Know what Vito Corleone told his sons - "A lawyer with a briefcase can steal more money than a hood with a gun!" And in the front of that same book - "Behind every great fortune - there is a crime!" Look at the world's great fortunes and you will see crime - from Rockefeller, to Getty, to Gates, Bush and Cheney. The Walton family fortune also comes from crime - from hiring illegals to clean up stores that are illegally locked down at night, to making employees work off the clock, etc. Well, you've convinced me! Let's all become criminals! No - what I am writing is that most modern-day corporations engage in more profitible criminal behavior than the boldest stick-up man. According to my uncles who worked in the NE PA coal mines, the reasons why the unions got the mob to provide protection is that the bosses were forming fascist strike-breaking gangs to beat up on the union members. Did you know that the American Legion was formed of WWI vets for that purpose? Did you know that the Mellon and DuPont families formed groups like the Silver Shirts and the Black Legion to break up organized labor by violence? Did you know that managment was in bed with Hitler in the 20s and 30's - so was GW Bush's grandfather and great-grandfather. Labor did nothing but fight back with the mob, but once the mob was your friend, they sort of stuck their hooks in you. Hence the problems with the mob and union pension plans. Mostly, I wanted to point out to the two of you that you were comparing apples and oranges. The people who started the unions are not the same people (or even the same quality of people) who run the unions today. So what - are you saying that the people who run companies today are saints? No. I wasn't saying ANYTHING about companies. You're using GWB logic ("Yer for us or agin' us!"). The union workers I know would be revolted by the idea of their morals being determined by CEOs. When you comlain about dirty unions, you imply somehow that lack of unions is a good thing - which is one of the ways that the corporate elite con you into believing that you don't need a union, and then onto other things you don't need: workplace health and safety, minimum wages, wage and hour protection, etc. Or that John Sweeney of the AFL-CIO is a crook like Ken Lay, Bernie Ebbers, and the rest of the ****ing corporate criminal elite? I think that John Sweeney is better educated and a better quality person than either Sam Gompers or Jimmy Hoffa? He ain't no crook, and he is a better quality person than the sociopaths who run today's corporations. Perhaps, but that has nothing to do with what I said. I was comparing him with those idealistic folks who started the unions, not the CEOs who currently run the companies. Did you read what I wrote? Having met John Sweeny at the AFL-CIO HQ up the street from the White House - and even parking in his spot out front - I can tell you that he is more like the idealistic folks who started the unions. You wrote that the people who run the unions today are not the same people who started them, and are not of the same quality. I wrote that you were incorrect. But most of the anti-union people on here seem to think that management can do no wrong - they all want to be CEOs or make their money. |
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USENET READER wrote:
Name me a profession that isn't unionized that have apprenticeships? Two - though their apprenticeships aren't formal training. - electronic technicians - machinery mechanics. (They instead depend upon years of exposure to different types of malfunctioning "gear", including poorly-written software.) No training classes can prepare these individuals for what they may encounter. In fact, both are similar in a lot of ways to your "medicine" example, where diagnostic skills can come only from lengthy exposure/experience. |
USENET READER wrote:
C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that few power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the Craftsman brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in Taiwan (a democracy I have no problem doing business with) and Red China (perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country where the factories are owned by the state and staffed with slave labor). Are you stuck in the '80s? Most Chinese companies have been privatized. And who owns these private companies? Mostly it is well-connected members of the ChiCom party - so for all intents and purposes, it is still owned by those who run the government. Still stuck in the '80s. The ownership has been changing for quite a while now, but I would not have expected you to be informed enough to know this. No actually - your head is up your ass. Can you tell me who owns the private companies if not the party elite? They just privatized these factories and now they split the profits not with the workers, but with their American investors. So you tell me how while it has changed in shape, the end result isn't really different? Seems it's your head up your own ass. China's got a thriving stock market and ownership is shifting to individuals. I wouldn't have expected you to know this, it bursts your bubble of ignorance. Bullshit - you can say that there is a stockmarket and that is supposed to mean that your average rank and file Chinese citizen can own stock? that is such bullshit - that whole thing is set up to attract foreign investment capital and to also make it easier to reward the party bigwigs. Their system is more fascist than free-market capitalism. They could still take it all back and leave their overseas investors hanging - what you gonna do when they do that? Sue them? You've just proven you do not know what the hell you are talking about. The average citizen DOES OWN STOCK. Give up, you obviously are clueless about this subject. The average citizen in China doesn't own stock. Do you know what the per capita or average income level is in China? There are like 1.5 billion people over there. Can you show a cite where you an prove that the average chinese citizen owns stock?? You don't know what the **** you are talking about, why don't you just shut up idiot. I know many average chinese citizens. They own stock. The ability of the average Chinese person to live cheap and save would put most Americans to shame. You know these citizens from where? You go over to China? I know them from China, twit. You're an idiot who writes before reading. I did go over to China, more times than I can remember. I lived there for several years. I have friends from many different income levels and from many different places including cities and the country side. You obviously know nothing about China other than a few things you read in the paper. As you've now shown, even your reading skills are limited. I'm done talking to you. Go troll somehwere else. You went over to China more times than you can remember? Where did you lve in China? If the Red Chinese let you over there, they didn't let you run all over the country and see all the poverty and the people who had no democratic freedom. Keep going, you're showing more of your ignorance. Are you saying that that I am somehow ignorant of the decrease in poverty and the increase in democratic freedoms in China? Back it up - and by something that can be proven - not just you saying that you lived in China, which itself proves noting - since you can't prove you lived there and I can't check it out. I can check out cites thatr you provide, but perhaps that is why you haven't provided any. I don't have to prove shit to you moron. I lived in China. People who know me know it's a fact. Ever see a US passport that was issued at the Hong Kong consulate? Didn't think so, but I've got one. There's at least one person I work with who follows this NG. If I'm lying about living in China, I'm sure he'll say so. YOu could say you lived on the moon, shared a peanut-butter and banana sandwich with Elvis last night, and have of of your loser friends back you up - but it doesn't make it true. And since you're just trolling, nothing I write here will convince you either, lutou. If they can buy stocks, they can only buy the stocks the commie *******s want them to buy. Sure, whatever you say. Moron - I haven't said anything - I WRITE to post on USENET - no wonder you have problems understanding logic. You are such a petty fool. Words mean something - talking is not the same as writing. Anyone who doesn't understand that there is a difference between talking and writing is a moron - or a Republican (same thing). Anyone who resorts to sniping at the use of the verb to say versus the verb to write during this kind of a discussion is a troll. You also should learn a bit more about the use of the English language. The verb to say is not the same as the verb to talk. The first definition of to say is "to express in words". The form of expression is not specified. In fact, one of the examples is "the clock says five minutes after twelve". Everybody knows that most clocks don't talk. It's very common in literature to use the verb to say in a manner such as I did. Either you have a limited grasp on the English language, or you're trolling. Since you appear to be able to write, it's obvious that you are just trolling. You make Red China sound like a bastion of freedom, democracy and capitalism. Maybe you should talk to some Tibetans - they just love the Red Chinese. Maybe you should just go the **** back there and live - r starve. I don't care - either way you are a ****ing moron who can't make a logical argument and can't cite any facts to back up your claim. I've backed up my claims, I have personal knowledge of the subject. You only have a few distorted newspaper articles and an obvious predjudice that has prevented you from learning much about what has happened in China over the last 20 years. Get your head out of the paper. Go experience life and then report back in a few years. Ni bu zhe dao Zhonggua. Ni tai ben. Ni zui zui ben. Zaijian shagua. And no, I did not need any help to write that. Go figure it out troll. YOu have backed up nothing - you claim that you are right because you lived in China. I don't know you (and don't want to know you), and you can't prove that you lived there and there is no way to validate your claims anyway. You offer no cites for facts to back up your claims, unlike the ones that I have provided. I can prove I lived there, but you are not worth the time. Did your cite prove people can't, and don't, own stock? Nope. My cites proved that average people in China don't have rights, and don't earn enough money to put food on the table - from that any intelligent person would realize that they wouldn't be starving to invest in stocks and buy TVs and cars and cell phones. Per capita income in China according to Business Week is $1000 a year - how much ****ing stock can you buy at that level? Once again, you've proven your ignorance. Many people do have cars, TVs, and cell phones. They also live a hell of a lot cheaper than people in the US. More people live in one house. They spend more carefully and save much more. Furthermore, China's high population and the "one-child" policy is causing another problem which would lead any thinking person to conclude that workers aren't buying much stock. The Chinese old-age pension system is broke, and with every worker supporting his or her parents and their two parents, for a total of 6 other people, how are they going to eat, live, raise their own kid, take care of parents and family, and invest in the market? Many of them do it quite well. Have you been there to see it? Nope, didn't think so. I have. Do you know how inexpensive food it there? Nope, didn't think you did. Do you have ANY first hand knowledge about China? Nope, you can only form your opinion on second hand information. I'm not saying China is perfect, in fact, it is far from perfect. My point is, and has been, that they have an amazing ability to live cheap, save money, and spend it carefully. One of my bext friends from college is from Taiwan. He was very active in the political system over there about 5 years ago, and he relocated his business to mainland China because he speaks the language and he would have a competitive advantage over people located in the states. Talking with him when he comes back to the USA, and exchanging e-mail, he tells me of a China that is definately not the China that you write about. So what accounts for that difference? Probably because you are full of shit and have never been to China. What China have I written about? I've talked about common people being able to buy stocks. The rest of the things about democracy and freedom are things you added. Yet more examples of your inability to read and comprehend. Dinglebarry - since I have not met you personally - you only wrote about China in your posting, you could not "talk" about it. I read and comprehend perfectly - you can't talk in print! You are a moron! More trolling. Sheesh, what a petty loser. Another associate of mine is a retired executive/engineer for an American/Canadian company who worked in China for 5 years, retiring from that job in mid 2004. He tells me the same thing that my other friend who lives in China - the economy sucks and there is no democracy for the average Chinese worker. Also he tells me that it is not uncommon to see workers missing body parts or otherwise severely injured because there are no workplace safety and health protections in China. So how are they better off than we are? Once again, you are showing you can't read. I never talked about any of this stuff, although I know all about it. Where did you get your ability to fabricate? I roomed with a very cute girl from Taiwan, who has a mother and sisters over in Taiwan. I also have two friends who teach college-level courses in Taiwan. They all watch the mainland and they say that things aren't as good as you claim them to be. Well isn't that special. I never claimed they were good. I said common people can, and do, buy stock. The rest is stuff you imagine I said. You wrote about it - not talked about it. More trolling. And given what I wrote about and the cites I gave, it makes your claim that common people in China own stock rather unbelievable. Unless you care to back it up with some cites and facts like I did, you would fail to score points at any debate except for those held at the Rush Limbaugh fan club. I'll humor you. I wrote up a list of the cities I have been to. I know I forgot a few, but here it is: Beijing, Changsha, Chengdu, Chengde, Shanghai, Hangzhou, Lijiang, Zhongdian, Zhuhai, Shenzhen, Hong Kong, Kunming, Guangzhou, Guilin, Yangshuo, Xian, Sanya, Shijiazhuang, Fujian, Huangshan, Haikou, Zhuhai, Taipei (internationally accepted as being part of China). So I ask you again - do you have anything other than your word to back up your claim that things in China are doing great? You say don't read the newspapers - but what should I read for factual information to back up your claims? Can you cite just 3 sources of information that back up your claims? If you can't - you lose and shut the **** up! I told you. Go there. Visit some farms in the country side. Work in 15 to 20 cities. Talk to some (mainland) Chinese instead of just Taiwanese who's view of mainland China is biased. Marry one, instead of rooming with a "cute girl from Taiwan". Once you've done some of these things, you'll have a better idea of what China is like. I don't have to go there - I can take the word of my friends who have lived on the mainland and and who live there now. Then you can only go by the second hand information you get from them. If you actually spent time in China, and worked alongside Chinese and Taiwanese, you would understand the Taiwanese bias against (mainland) Chinese. This would help you better understand the opinions they give you. I can base my opinion on the articles published by sources on both sides of the political aisle. I know what China is like now and I damn sure wouldn't want to live there now. That's a pity. It seems you have a closed mind and little desire to learn about other cultures. There are many beautiful places in China. The people are friendly, curious and love to learn about what our life is like. I base my opinion on the time I spend there, the condiditions I see, the people I worked, lived, and played with. I rather like not living in filth and squallor, with blackouts and horrible public health problems, and having to worry about losing a finger, arm or other body parts working in factories with no workplace health and safety protection. I've had more power outages since I got home than in all of my time in China. Yes, there are health and safety problems. Never said there weren't. If you liked it so much - why don't you go the **** back there to live? I actually may for a couple years. We damn sure don't need anymore people trying to turn the US into China with a race to the bottom. More trolling. I didn't say anything about changing the US to be more like China. |
USENET READER wrote:
Having met John Sweeny at the AFL-CIO HQ up the street from the White House - and even parking in his spot out front - I can tell you that he is more like the idealistic folks who started the unions. You wrote that the people who run the unions today are not the same people who started them, and are not of the same quality. I wrote that you were incorrect. But most of the anti-union people on here seem to think that management can do no wrong - they all want to be CEOs or make their money. Jimmy Hoffa was a very personable fellow also -- doesn't mean he wasn't a crook. |
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:09:47 GMT, USENET READER
wrote: Tom Disque wrote: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 12:23:17 -0500, "Edward M. Kennedy" wrote: "Tom Disque" wrote I work in photography and when I go up to NYC to photograph a dancer in a Broadway show (as I did last summer), I can't just plug into any old wall outlet. I don't know what the outlet is rated for, what else is plugged in there, etc. So I get a union guy to do it. He or she is responsible for knowing the condition of the electrical capacity in the building or theater. He comes and checks out my equipment, makes sure it isn't gonna blow up their electrical outlets or in any way keep them from putting on a show. He knows if the outlet is live and if not, how to turn it on. He knowns if it is switched off for a reason - it needs to be repaired or perhaps other things are plugged into it and need to be switched on and off for the show. There are all sorts of pratical reasons why you need a union electrician to do that work - would you want to plug in some cheap-assed made in China electrical device and blow out an entire electrical panel and keep a Broadway show from starting on time? I know also that when my grandmother was n a nursing home, you couldn't plug in any electrical devices into the wall without first having them checked out by the custodial staff. You wouldn't want someone plugging in some crappy old non-grounded lamp and tripping the breakers and grandma's O2 generator goes out - would you? You make some good points that I had not considered. Like what? It's a false dichotomy. You don't need a *union* guy to do that -- you need a *qualified* guy to do that. The "union" guy may be *more* likely to have BS certification for all you know. You know, get passed along by the bureaucracy like in a public school? It's a similar thing for doctors and lawyers. I'm not against their certification, I'm against the monopoly in deciding who gets to practice medicine or law at all. --Ted You make better points! SO who signed your diploma saying you graduated from college, or I duno, I never looked at it. certified that the college you went to was worth a damn? Why bother? It wasn't! From grade school on, anything I learned was pretty much up to me. If I wished, I could've casted all the way thru college. Lucky for me, I enjoy learning. Or is that an OK monopoly in your view? Is what an OK monopoly? College certification boards? |
"USENET READER" wrote
Reputation. A medical standards group that racks up a lot of bozos with malpractice suits is dead in the water. Right now, the system is not only biased, there's not much feedback. There's no shortage of certification systems in the private market. A bachelors degree in engineering from an *accredited* university is also a form accredation. Microsoft does a lot too, as does the Red Cross for lifeguards. You raise an interesting point. The problem is that those certifications and degrees cost money out front before you even get a job that might not be there when you graduate. If you can't hold a job and earn certifications from Microsoft at the same time, you aren't very employable to begin with. Sorry - many people who work today have to work long and hard hours and their lives aren't their own. Most people have to not only get this certification apart from work, but they also have to pay for it on their own too! Someone who is told that they have to work tonight (when they should be going to their certification class) or they don't have to come in the next day has a tough choice to make. Crime me an anecdotal river. Getting your certification on the job is so much better. For *you*. And it's tougher to pay for that very expensive certification if you don't have a job Firmly grasping the obvious... - that is some expensive shit! ....until now. Software certification is free/cheap. You can't even get the State to pay for it in a reasonable period of time - let's say taking GOOD! classes at the McKimmon Center - because the classes are so much more expensive than at Wake Tech - where it will take a lot longer to complete the course work. "Would you like to supersize that?" And don't leave the nest until you can fly. One of the things that a union has done in the past is to have a system for new workers to come into a system as a helper or apprentice and work and learn at the same time, until they passed some sort of certification. And they didn't have to take out loans or pay someone to teach them - they learned on the job while they were getting paid. And while they were learning, they had job protection. What could possibly be wrong with that? Nothing. The false dichotomy (again) is that you need a union to have apprenticeships. Many, many professions have some form of this. Since few employees have the bargaining strength these days (relative to their employers) to negotiate for paid on the job training, Plenty of employers *do* offer it if it is related to work. Care to back up your implied (sneaky, aren't we?) claim that few employees have access to on the job training? unions do help with that. Name me a profession that isn't unionized that have apprenticeships? And don't say medicine, because that is apples and oranges. If you say so. Ironically, computers were the classic type of learn-as-you-go work, though not as much now. Just about every type of construction effectively works that way. You don't take carpentry classes. You start as a helper. Same for aliminum siding, roofing, sheetrock, etc. Electricians do the formal version even where their aren't unions. Lawyers, engineers, brokers, etc. start in junior positions. Management in general is trains & grooms as you go. It's a very common model, whether it is a formal apprenticeship or not. --Ted |
"Tom Disque" wrote in message
SO who signed your diploma saying you graduated from college, or I duno, I never looked at it. certified that the college you went to was worth a damn? Why bother? It wasn't! From grade school on, anything I learned was pretty much up to me. If I wished, I could've casted all the way thru college. Lucky for me, I enjoy learning. Or is that an OK monopoly in your view? Is what an OK monopoly? College certification boards? Grain of Sand is free to start his own college certification board. Zen University, Buddha College, The Socratic School of Sophistry... --Ted |
Edward M. Kennedy wrote:
"USENET READER" wrote Plenty of employers *do* offer it if it is related to work. Care to back up your implied (sneaky, aren't we?) claim that few employees have access to on the job training? unions do help with that. Name me a profession that isn't unionized that have apprenticeships? And don't say medicine, because that is apples and oranges. If you say so. Ironically, computers were the classic type of learn-as-you-go work, though not as much now. Just about every type of construction effectively works that way. You don't take carpentry classes. You start as a helper. Same for aliminum siding, roofing, sheetrock, etc. Electricians do the formal version even where their aren't unions. Lawyers, engineers, brokers, etc. start in junior positions. Management in general is trains & grooms as you go. It's a very common model, whether it is a formal apprenticeship or not. --Ted The difference between unionized apprenticeship programs and just company apprenticeship programs is standardization. Of course the ojt occurs a bit differently depending on the respective industry, but the classroom training is pretty much standardized in unionized apprenticeship programs. |
Edward M. Kennedy wrote:
"USENET READER" wrote Reputation. A medical standards group that racks up a lot of bozos with malpractice suits is dead in the water. Right now, the system is not only biased, there's not much feedback. If you say so. Ironically, computers were the classic type of learn-as-you-go work, though not as much now. Just about every type of construction effectively works that way. You don't take carpentry classes. You start as a helper. Same for aliminum siding, roofing, sheetrock, etc. Electricians do the formal version even where their aren't unions. Lawyers, engineers, brokers, etc. start in junior positions. Management in general is trains & grooms as you go. It's a very common model, whether it is a formal apprenticeship or not. --Ted By the way, what does this have to do with alt.home.lawn.garden? |
Most Americans have not been taught about the social-welfare program that
gave FDR his vision for the New Deal. That program was called the "Square Deal". Why have they not been taught about the Square Deal? Simple: the Square Deal was created by a capitalist, and it was wildly successful. Having a successful social-welfare program for working-class people, funded by the profits of the company that employs those workers, flies in the face of the Leftist agenda that is shared by Democrat politicians and their "mainstream" media hacks. The "Square Deal" was created in Broome County, NY, by industrialist George F. Johnson. (Some speculate that Johnson was inspired by the "Square Deal" remarks of Teddy Roosevelt. This writer found no quotes to support that point; but, it is plausible.) Johnson's Square Deal was so successful that the town where it was created, Lestershire, was renamed Johnson City. To this day, the villages of Endicott and Johnson City are marked by the "Square Deal arches", which commemorate the legacy of Johnson and his company: Endicott-Johnson Shoes (EJ). Thousands of immigrants - mostly from Slavic countries - came to America knowing only one English phrase: "Which way EJ?" (My grandmother was among those immigrants; and, three generations of my family worked in EJ factories at one time or another.) What made the Square Deal so popular? Among other things, the eight-hour work day. That, along with the five-day work week, was among the foundational pillars of the Square Deal. "Mainstream" media outlets, which favor Democrats and labor unions, sometimes credit Henry Ford with the creation of the eight-hour workday. But, not even the official Ford corporate history Web page makes that claim. And, according to most writers, Ford introduced his eight-hour day in 1914. By contrast, Johnson had introduced the eight-hour day in his factories more than twenty years sooner. (The Square Deal Arches were dedicated in 1920. They were a monument to a group of social programs that had already existed for an entire generation of EJ workers. That generation wanted to ensure that the memory of the Square Deal would survive.) Johnson's Square Deal was also good business: happy workers are more productive. Shorter work periods were not the only features of the Square Deal. Johnson also addressed many "quality of life" issues. Endicott-Johnson, Inc., built hospitals, which were also available to the larger community. The company also built houses, and sold them to EJ workers at cost. Then, the company deducted the payments from workers' paychecks - thus making it one of the first direct-payment mortgage programs in America - long before the computer industry (which was also born in Broome County, NY). Johnson also had a wide-ranging program of community philanthropy. It included building parks, swimming pools, the first corporate golf course, and his famous group of carousels. (When he was a boy, Johnson had been so poor that he could not afford to ride a carousel. So, when he became wealthy, he donated them to the county - with the standing rule that they would always be free-of-charge.) George F. Johnson used his wealth from the shoe industry to improve life for his workers; and, he "spread the wealth" to the communities where his workers lived. Johnson was a pioneer of what became known as "welfare capitalism". (In the modern parlance, we call it "compassionate conservatism" - as though compassion was an anomaly. But, true conservatism is always compassionate, because its goal is to "conserve" peace and well-being for everyone.) Prior to the Square Deal, the normal work day in America had been ten hours (this was the standard for Federal workers in 1840); and, some jobs worked from sunrise to sunset. (Some jobs still do.) But, the political Left sees two big problems with welfare capitalism: 1) it's capitalist; and, 2) it works. The Square Deal infuriated President Roosevelt, because it flew in the face of the Socialism that he embraced so thoroughly. Local researcher and writer Tom Cawley, in his "Postcard History of Broome County", had a picture of FDR (who was Governor of New York at that time) riding in a car with George F. Johnson. The relationship between the two men was strained, because Johnson had successfully created a system that actually did in fact what Socialism could only purport to do on paper. Further, records at the time indicated that the crowd at the parade was cheering Johnson, not Roosevelt. In his "revenge", FDR came up with a government-funded New Deal that mocked privately-funded Johnson's Square Deal. (Interestingly, in so doing, FDR also mocked his conservative cousin: President Theodore Roosevelt. There goes the concept that "dementia liberalis" is genetic!) |
When he was a boy, Johnson had been so poor that he could not
afford to ride a carousel. So, when he became wealthy, he donated them to the county - with the standing rule that they would always be free-of-charge. I visited Binghamton NY a few years ago and rode one of those carousels. There was a fee for the ride... but it was a token fee. Each person got a ride in exchange for one piece of litter they found on the park grounds. Nice idea. Daniel B. Martin |
While at HD last week looking for a new push mower, the Lawn-Boy display
got my attention. Nice looking, great features for the asking price. model 10684 $339. But, read on the box"assembled" in mexico! This is a 2005 model with a date of 3-15-04 on the box(?) LB is owned by the Toro Co. The Toro mower is made in MN. John Saint Charles,MO |
Don't compare John Sweeney to Jimmy Hoffa - Hoffa was a crook, Sweeney
is not. But no matter how much of a crook Hoffa was, what would you have union people do when management and owners where fascists who created groups like the Black Legion and the Silver Shirts (modeled after Hitler's goon squads) to break up unions meetings and threaten union organizers? No matter how bad you feel unions are for getting into bed with the mob, they are not in the same league with management. Henry Ford and Tom Watson Sr. got medals from Hitler, who wanted to send his brown shirts to help Henry Ford break strikes in the US. Tom Watson got his medal for helping the Germans use punch cards to identify and round-up Jews and Gypsies and put them into concentration campsm, and supplied the Nazies with punch card machine parts and paper for the cards during WWII - in violation with Trading with the Enemy Acts (meaning he was a traitor). And Prescott Bush has a hand in managing slave labor near Auschwitz prior to WWII, and also was in business with the Nazis from December 9, 1941 to October 1942 - when we were at war with Germany. So don't ****ing put any labor leaders in the same league with these traitorous corporate scumbags. If any of these corporate scumbags came after me and my family for my efforts to get a better life through joining a union or trying to get better working conditions on my own, I'd take up a gun or get in bed with the mafia, and God help anyone who stands in my way! Take that Wal-Mart! Gregor wrote: USENET READER wrote: Having met John Sweeny at the AFL-CIO HQ up the street from the White House - and even parking in his spot out front - I can tell you that he is more like the idealistic folks who started the unions. You wrote that the people who run the unions today are not the same people who started them, and are not of the same quality. I wrote that you were incorrect. But most of the anti-union people on here seem to think that management can do no wrong - they all want to be CEOs or make their money. Jimmy Hoffa was a very personable fellow also -- doesn't mean he wasn't a crook. |
C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that few power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the Craftsman brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in Taiwan (a democracy I have no problem doing business with) and Red China (perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country where the factories are owned by the state and staffed with slave labor). Are you stuck in the '80s? Most Chinese companies have been privatized. And who owns these private companies? Mostly it is well-connected members of the ChiCom party - so for all intents and purposes, it is still owned by those who run the government. Still stuck in the '80s. The ownership has been changing for quite a while now, but I would not have expected you to be informed enough to know this. No actually - your head is up your ass. Can you tell me who owns the private companies if not the party elite? They just privatized these factories and now they split the profits not with the workers, but with their American investors. So you tell me how while it has changed in shape, the end result isn't really different? Seems it's your head up your own ass. China's got a thriving stock market and ownership is shifting to individuals. I wouldn't have expected you to know this, it bursts your bubble of ignorance. Prove it - show some cites. I cited examples of poor pay - rational people don't starve themsselves to buy stock. Bullshit - you can say that there is a stockmarket and that is supposed to mean that your average rank and file Chinese citizen can own stock? that is such bullshit - that whole thing is set up to attract foreign investment capital and to also make it easier to reward the party bigwigs. Their system is more fascist than free-market capitalism. They could still take it all back and leave their overseas investors hanging - what you gonna do when they do that? Sue them? You've just proven you do not know what the hell you are talking about. The average citizen DOES OWN STOCK. Give up, you obviously are clueless about this subject. Can you prove it - can you cite examples of stock ownership by Joe Chinaman? The average citizen in China doesn't own stock. Do you know what the per capita or average income level is in China? There are like 1.5 billion people over there. Can you show a cite where you an prove that the average chinese citizen owns stock?? You don't know what the **** you are talking about, why don't you just shut up idiot. I know many average chinese citizens. They own stock. The ability of the average Chinese person to live cheap and save would put most Americans to shame. You know these citizens from where? You go over to China? I know them from China, twit. You're an idiot who writes before reading. I did go over to China, more times than I can remember. I lived there for several years. I have friends from many different income levels and from many different places including cities and the country side. You obviously know nothing about China other than a few things you read in the paper. As you've now shown, even your reading skills are limited. I'm done talking to you. Go troll somehwere else. You went over to China more times than you can remember? Where did you lve in China? If the Red Chinese let you over there, they didn't let you run all over the country and see all the poverty and the people who had no democratic freedom. Keep going, you're showing more of your ignorance. Are you saying that that I am somehow ignorant of the decrease in poverty and the increase in democratic freedoms in China? Back it up - and by something that can be proven - not just you saying that you lived in China, which itself proves noting - since you can't prove you lived there and I can't check it out. I can check out cites thatr you provide, but perhaps that is why you haven't provided any. I don't have to prove shit to you moron. I lived in China. People who know me know it's a fact. Ever see a US passport that was issued at the Hong Kong consulate? Didn't think so, but I've got one. There's at least one person I work with who follows this NG. If I'm lying about living in China, I'm sure he'll say so. YOu could say you lived on the moon, shared a peanut-butter and banana sandwich with Elvis last night, and have of of your loser friends back you up - but it doesn't make it true. And since you're just trolling, nothing I write here will convince you either, lutou. Not trolling - just asking you to put up or shut up - show us a cite or shut the **** up! If they can buy stocks, they can only buy the stocks the commie *******s want them to buy. Sure, whatever you say. Moron - I haven't said anything - I WRITE to post on USENET - no wonder you have problems understanding logic. You are such a petty fool. Words mean something - talking is not the same as writing. Anyone who doesn't understand that there is a difference between talking and writing is a moron - or a Republican (same thing). Anyone who resorts to sniping at the use of the verb to say versus the verb to write during this kind of a discussion is a troll. You also should learn a bit more about the use of the English language. The verb to say is not the same as the verb to talk. The first definition of to say is "to express in words". The form of expression is not specified. In fact, one of the examples is "the clock says five minutes after twelve". Everybody knows that most clocks don't talk. It's very common in literature to use the verb to say in a manner such as I did. Either you have a limited grasp on the English language, or you're trolling. Since you appear to be able to write, it's obvious that you are just trolling. I don't any intelligent person who says that "the clock says anything" - they say or write that the the time is whatever it is, or according to the clock on the wall, or WWV, the time is whatever it is. It's obvious that I have a better command of the English language than you do. You make Red China sound like a bastion of freedom, democracy and capitalism. Maybe you should talk to some Tibetans - they just love the Red Chinese. Maybe you should just go the **** back there and live - r starve. I don't care - either way you are a ****ing moron who can't make a logical argument and can't cite any facts to back up your claim. I've backed up my claims, I have personal knowledge of the subject. You only have a few distorted newspaper articles and an obvious predjudice that has prevented you from learning much about what has happened in China over the last 20 years. Get your head out of the paper. Go experience life and then report back in a few years. Ni bu zhe dao Zhonggua. Ni tai ben. Ni zui zui ben. Zaijian shagua. And no, I did not need any help to write that. Go figure it out troll. YOu have backed up nothing - you claim that you are right because you lived in China. I don't know you (and don't want to know you), and you can't prove that you lived there and there is no way to validate your claims anyway. You offer no cites for facts to back up your claims, unlike the ones that I have provided. I can prove I lived there, but you are not worth the time. Did your cite prove people can't, and don't, own stock? Nope. My cites proved that average people in China don't have rights, and don't earn enough money to put food on the table - from that any intelligent person would realize that they wouldn't be starving to invest in stocks and buy TVs and cars and cell phones. Per capita income in China according to Business Week is $1000 a year - how much ****ing stock can you buy at that level? Once again, you've proven your ignorance. Many people do have cars, TVs, and cell phones. They also live a hell of a lot cheaper than people in the US. More people live in one house. They spend more carefully and save much more. "Many" people? How many people in CHina is "many"? Give us a cite - percentages of chinese citizens who own cars, TVs and cell phones.You say they spend more carefully - I say they have less to spend because they get paid a dollar a day or less. Furthermore, China's high population and the "one-child" policy is causing another problem which would lead any thinking person to conclude that workers aren't buying much stock. The Chinese old-age pension system is broke, and with every worker supporting his or her parents and their two parents, for a total of 6 other people, how are they going to eat, live, raise their own kid, take care of parents and family, and invest in the market? Many of them do it quite well. Have you been there to see it? Nope, didn't think so. I have. Do you know how inexpensive food it there? Nope, didn't think you did. Do you have ANY first hand knowledge about China? Nope, you can only form your opinion on second hand information. I'm not saying China is perfect, in fact, it is far from perfect. My point is, and has been, that they have an amazing ability to live cheap, save money, and spend it carefully. Depends on what your definition of "many" is. India for example has more well-educated workers than the entire working population of the US. But that doesn't mean they are as well paid as our workers are. A smaller percentage as well as a number of Indian workers have cars than do workers in the US. While cars in China don't cost as much as cars do over here, they still cost a whole lot more than the average Chinese worker can afford to pay, therefore fewer of them have cars. So give us some cites not your observations. One of my bext friends from college is from Taiwan. He was very active in the political system over there about 5 years ago, and he relocated his business to mainland China because he speaks the language and he would have a competitive advantage over people located in the states. Talking with him when he comes back to the USA, and exchanging e-mail, he tells me of a China that is definately not the China that you write about. So what accounts for that difference? Probably because you are full of shit and have never been to China. What China have I written about? I've talked about common people being able to buy stocks. The rest of the things about democracy and freedom are things you added. Yet more examples of your inability to read and comprehend. Dinglebarry - since I have not met you personally - you only wrote about China in your posting, you could not "talk" about it. I read and comprehend perfectly - you can't talk in print! You are a moron! More trolling. Sheesh, what a petty loser. What trolling? You say we should believe you because you have been to China, but there is no way for you to prove that or for any of us to check that. I on the other hand have shown cites and their sources which anyone can check on and you so far has not been able to prove wrong by any verifiable sources. Who's trolling now dumbass! Another associate of mine is a retired executive/engineer for an American/Canadian company who worked in China for 5 years, retiring from that job in mid 2004. He tells me the same thing that my other friend who lives in China - the economy sucks and there is no democracy for the average Chinese worker. Also he tells me that it is not uncommon to see workers missing body parts or otherwise severely injured because there are no workplace safety and health protections in China. So how are they better off than we are? Once again, you are showing you can't read. I never talked about any of this stuff, although I know all about it. Where did you get your ability to fabricate? I roomed with a very cute girl from Taiwan, who has a mother and sisters over in Taiwan. I also have two friends who teach college-level courses in Taiwan. They all watch the mainland and they say that things aren't as good as you claim them to be. Well isn't that special. I never claimed they were good. I said common people can, and do, buy stock. The rest is stuff you imagine I said. You wrote about it - not talked about it. More trolling. No - simply being precise with words. And given what I wrote about and the cites I gave, it makes your claim that common people in China own stock rather unbelievable. Unless you care to back it up with some cites and facts like I did, you would fail to score points at any debate except for those held at the Rush Limbaugh fan club. I'll humor you. I wrote up a list of the cities I have been to. I know I forgot a few, but here it is: Beijing, Changsha, Chengdu, Chengde, Shanghai, Hangzhou, Lijiang, Zhongdian, Zhuhai, Shenzhen, Hong Kong, Kunming, Guangzhou, Guilin, Yangshuo, Xian, Sanya, Shijiazhuang, Fujian, Huangshan, Haikou, Zhuhai, Taipei (internationally accepted as being part of China). How can you prove it - you can't! I simply asked you to provide some cites to back up your claims (since you can't prove you were in those cities - you could have picked them out of an atlas), and you have not been able to cite anything other than your own experiences. So I ask you again - do you have anything other than your word to back up your claim that things in China are doing great? You say don't read the newspapers - but what should I read for factual information to back up your claims? Can you cite just 3 sources of information that back up your claims? If you can't - you lose and shut the **** up! I told you. Go there. Visit some farms in the country side. Work in 15 to 20 cities. Talk to some (mainland) Chinese instead of just Taiwanese who's view of mainland China is biased. Marry one, instead of rooming with a "cute girl from Taiwan". Once you've done some of these things, you'll have a better idea of what China is like. I don't have to go there - I can take the word of my friends who have lived on the mainland and and who live there now. Then you can only go by the second hand information you get from them. If you actually spent time in China, and worked alongside Chinese and Taiwanese, you would understand the Taiwanese bias against (mainland) Chinese. This would help you better understand the opinions they give you. I get my information from Chinese friends who are there now, and people who used to live there - it backs up the cites from verifiable sources. Nothing you have offered can compete with that. I can base my opinion on the articles published by sources on both sides of the political aisle. I know what China is like now and I damn sure wouldn't want to live there now. That's a pity. It seems you have a closed mind and little desire to learn about other cultures. There are many beautiful places in China. The people are friendly, curious and love to learn about what our life is like. I base my opinion on the time I spend there, the condiditions I see, the people I worked, lived, and played with. I wouldn't want to live in a country run by a fascist dicatorship where I have fewer rights than I have here. I wouldn't want to live in a country with such a backward health system (remember the SARS problem last year?). The land up around Durant Road is nice to look at, but I prefer not to live next to a landfil and smell the garbage rotting in the summer. I rather like not living in filth and squallor, with blackouts and horrible public health problems, and having to worry about losing a finger, arm or other body parts working in factories with no workplace health and safety protection. I've had more power outages since I got home than in all of my time in China. Yes, there are health and safety problems. Never said there weren't. If you liked it so much - why don't you go the **** back there to live? I actually may for a couple years. We damn sure don't need anymore people trying to turn the US into China with a race to the bottom. More trolling. I didn't say anything about changing the US to be more like China. You seem to want people to live more like the chinese - eat less, work more, have fewer protections and get paid less. As long as we get to drive cars, have TVs and cell phones - and invest in the stock market. Isn't that what you wrote earlier? |
USENET READER wrote:
We damn sure don't need anymore people trying to turn the US into China with a race to the bottom. More trolling. I didn't say anything about changing the US to be more like China. You seem to want people to live more like the chinese - eat less, work more, have fewer protections and get paid less. As long as we get to drive cars, have TVs and cell phones - and invest in the stock market. Isn't that what you wrote earlier? No it wasn't, TROLL. Zaijian PLONK |
$339 for a self-propelled mower made in Mexico? What a rip-off - for
everyone except the stockholders and the CEO of the company! After looking around, I bought a great mower from Sears that was made in America - a Bob Villa signature series (not that this matters) 22" cutting deck, variable speed rear bagger, regular price about $328, on sale with early bird special for about $260 on sale. Sears doesn't make their own tools and equipment - they contract with a company that makes the stuff to put on a private label. From my understanding, Electrolux is one company that makes these mowers and slaps a B&S engine on top. I also bought a very nice Porter-Cable saw at Sears for $129 - also made in America. I could have bought this saw at HD, if they didn't stock only the left-handed models. Some Porter-Cable tools have lasted up to 50 years with regular service. My grandfather was a contractor and he had Porter-Cable tools. Those were the first power tools I ever used, down in my grandfather's basement workshop. The tools were left to my uncle, who doesn't use them and have left them and all the other tools in a chest in the basement. When my uncle kicks, they will be mine, as he doesn't have any sons and his grandsons aren't into tools - you can't plug them in and play games on them! Yes I could have bought a POS saw from Harbor Freight along with an extended warranty - the net effect is to have a tool that when it breaks or stops working, I can take it back and get another one. The thing is, their stuff breaks way too often and I lose time going back again and again. I'd much rather buy something once and keep using it for years and years - like my Craftsman drill, rachets and other tools. I have only had to return to Sears twice in 25 years to replace a Craftsman tool - once to replace a rachet mechanism and once to replace a cracked socket. It's not that the American consumer can really make logical choices based on the value of the tools made in America vs. elsewhere, or the choice between supporting fellow American workers vs. sending money to help build up the Chinese military. Those questions are secondary to the question on where the investors will get the greatest return on their investment - in the US or elsewhere. What good or service is produced and any value judgments (helping out your fellow Americans, balance of trade, technology transfers, etc.) are secondary - if considered at all - for the Ownership/Investment Class, who are the investors, the people who manage the investments and the managers of the companies the investments are placed in. John Prokovich wrote: While at HD last week looking for a new push mower, the Lawn-Boy display got my attention. Nice looking, great features for the asking price. model 10684 $339. But, read on the box"assembled" in mexico! This is a 2005 model with a date of 3-15-04 on the box(?) LB is owned by the Toro Co. The Toro mower is made in MN. John Saint Charles,MO |
C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: We damn sure don't need anymore people trying to turn the US into China with a race to the bottom. More trolling. I didn't say anything about changing the US to be more like China. You seem to want people to live more like the chinese - eat less, work more, have fewer protections and get paid less. As long as we get to drive cars, have TVs and cell phones - and invest in the stock market. Isn't that what you wrote earlier? No it wasn't, TROLL. Zaijian PLONK Ay moron can look up chinese words on the internet - it doesn't prove you have been there. Yes that is what you wrote - you claimed you wanted us to be able to be more like them because they **** away less money and invest more - is that invest more dollars or a greater precentage of their pay? You claimed that they have a stock market that the average Chinese person invests in, and yet you have offered no cites to prove it - but you claim that the Chinese have cars, TVs and cell phones as proof that their way of living and working is somehow superior to ours. On 1/27/05 you wrote: My cites proved that average people in China don't have rights, and don't earn enough money to put food on the table - from that any intelligent person would realize that they wouldn't be starving to invest in stocks and buy TVs and cars and cell phones. Per capita income in China according to Business Week is $1000 a year - how much ****ing stock can you buy at that level? Once again, you've proven your ignorance. Many people do have cars, TVs, and cell phones. They also live a hell of a lot cheaper than people in the US. More people live in one house. They spend more carefully and save much more. Furthermore, China's high population and the "one-child" policy is causing another problem which would lead any thinking person to conclude that workers aren't buying much stock. The Chinese old-age pension system is broke, and with every worker supporting his or her parents and their two parents, for a total of 6 other people, how are they going to eat, live, raise their own kid, take care of parents and family, and invest in the market? Many of them do it quite well. Have you been there to see it? Nope, didn't think so. I have. Do you know how inexpensive food it there? Nope, didn't think you did. Do you have ANY first hand knowledge about China? Nope, you can only form your opinion on second hand information. I'm not saying China is perfect, in fact, it is far from perfect. My point is, and has been, that they have an amazing ability to live cheap, save money, and spend it carefully. By making these claims, any reasonable person would infer that you want us to be less like we are here in America and more like the Chinese, because the Chinese can buy all that stuff and invest in the stock market and live very cheap on the fraction of what American workers make? |
"USENET READER" wrote in message ink.net... $339 for a self-propelled mower made in Mexico? What a rip-off - for everyone except the stockholders and the CEO of the company! After looking around, I bought a great mower from Sears that was made in America - a Bob Villa signature series (not that this matters) 22" cutting deck, variable speed rear bagger, regular price about $328, on sale with early bird special for about $260 on sale. Sears doesn't make their own tools and equipment - they contract with a company that makes the stuff to put on a private label. From my understanding, Electrolux is one company that makes these mowers and slaps a B&S engine on top. Isn't Electrolux a Swedish company? I also bought a very nice Porter-Cable saw at Sears for $129 - also made in America. I could have bought this saw at HD, if they didn't stock only the left-handed models. Some Porter-Cable tools have lasted up to 50 years with regular service. My grandfather was a contractor and he had Porter-Cable tools. Those were the first power tools I ever used, down in my grandfather's basement workshop. The tools were left to my uncle, who doesn't use them and have left them and all the other tools in a chest in the basement. When my uncle kicks, they will be mine, as he doesn't have any sons and his grandsons aren't into tools - you can't plug them in and play games on them! Yes I could have bought a POS saw from Harbor Freight along with an extended warranty - the net effect is to have a tool that when it breaks or stops working, I can take it back and get another one. The thing is, their stuff breaks way too often and I lose time going back again and again. I'd much rather buy something once and keep using it for years and years - like my Craftsman drill, rachets and other tools. I have only had to return to Sears twice in 25 years to replace a Craftsman tool - once to replace a rachet mechanism and once to replace a cracked socket. It's not that the American consumer can really make logical choices based on the value of the tools made in America vs. elsewhere, or the choice between supporting fellow American workers vs. sending money to help build up the Chinese military. Those questions are secondary to the question on where the investors will get the greatest return on their investment - in the US or elsewhere. What good or service is produced and any value judgments (helping out your fellow Americans, balance of trade, technology transfers, etc.) are secondary - if considered at all - for the Ownership/Investment Class, who are the investors, the people who manage the investments and the managers of the companies the investments are placed in. John Prokovich wrote: While at HD last week looking for a new push mower, the Lawn-Boy display got my attention. Nice looking, great features for the asking price. model 10684 $339. But, read on the box"assembled" in mexico! This is a 2005 model with a date of 3-15-04 on the box(?) LB is owned by the Toro Co. The Toro mower is made in MN. John Saint Charles,MO |
Like Toyota, the parent company HQ is located overseas, but they do
maintain factories in this country that certainly pay better than Wal-Mart wages. Oscar_Lives wrote: "USENET READER" wrote in message ink.net... $339 for a self-propelled mower made in Mexico? What a rip-off - for everyone except the stockholders and the CEO of the company! After looking around, I bought a great mower from Sears that was made in America - a Bob Villa signature series (not that this matters) 22" cutting deck, variable speed rear bagger, regular price about $328, on sale with early bird special for about $260 on sale. Sears doesn't make their own tools and equipment - they contract with a company that makes the stuff to put on a private label. From my understanding, Electrolux is one company that makes these mowers and slaps a B&S engine on top. Isn't Electrolux a Swedish company? I also bought a very nice Porter-Cable saw at Sears for $129 - also made in America. I could have bought this saw at HD, if they didn't stock only the left-handed models. Some Porter-Cable tools have lasted up to 50 years with regular service. My grandfather was a contractor and he had Porter-Cable tools. Those were the first power tools I ever used, down in my grandfather's basement workshop. The tools were left to my uncle, who doesn't use them and have left them and all the other tools in a chest in the basement. When my uncle kicks, they will be mine, as he doesn't have any sons and his grandsons aren't into tools - you can't plug them in and play games on them! Yes I could have bought a POS saw from Harbor Freight along with an extended warranty - the net effect is to have a tool that when it breaks or stops working, I can take it back and get another one. The thing is, their stuff breaks way too often and I lose time going back again and again. I'd much rather buy something once and keep using it for years and years - like my Craftsman drill, rachets and other tools. I have only had to return to Sears twice in 25 years to replace a Craftsman tool - once to replace a rachet mechanism and once to replace a cracked socket. It's not that the American consumer can really make logical choices based on the value of the tools made in America vs. elsewhere, or the choice between supporting fellow American workers vs. sending money to help build up the Chinese military. Those questions are secondary to the question on where the investors will get the greatest return on their investment - in the US or elsewhere. What good or service is produced and any value judgments (helping out your fellow Americans, balance of trade, technology transfers, etc.) are secondary - if considered at all - for the Ownership/Investment Class, who are the investors, the people who manage the investments and the managers of the companies the investments are placed in. John Prokovich wrote: While at HD last week looking for a new push mower, the Lawn-Boy display got my attention. Nice looking, great features for the asking price. model 10684 $339. But, read on the box"assembled" in mexico! This is a 2005 model with a date of 3-15-04 on the box(?) LB is owned by the Toro Co. The Toro mower is made in MN. John Saint Charles,MO |
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