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Fewer American-made tools - yet another downside to illegal immigrationand workers in the USA?
I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that few power
or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the Craftsman brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in Taiwan (a democracy I have no problem doing business with) and Red China (perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country where the factories are owned by the state and staffed with slave labor). Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the reconditioned DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is garbage and usually dies after a short period of time. Grinders and drills come with extra electric motor brushes which almost always get lost by the time you need them - and you will. HF always tries to sell you an extended warranty program, and most people I know don't buy them - even though for all intents and purposes, if you buy the EW, you can bring back the tool and swap it for a new one anytime the older one doesn't work. So other than the time you lose always gong to HF to exchange tools, that does seem like a good deal. How can American companies compete with that? But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned something about the construction trades which made me wonder if any more tools are going to be made in the USA? One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and harder to find American made tools of his trade in the stores. The Chinese-made crap (his words) are cheaply made, don't hold up to continued professional work, rivets pop, everything rusts unless you soak it in oil (which is not good for the mortar or cement, mason's hoes break after one use, etc. The other guy runs a catering truck that runs around to construction sites. He says that, except for the licensed trades (electricians and who are mostly younger white guys), the plumber (who are mostly older white guys) and the bricklayers (who are mostly African American) - everybody else is Mexican and they almost only speak Spanish and need a bi-lingual supervisor on the job. This supervisor - who is not dressed out for work - usually stands around talking on his cell phone, looking at his steel and gold Rolex watch - is a white guy. Well - the real question is - are any of the largely illegal immigrant construction workers buying quality American-made tools, or are they spending as little money as possible on tools as they might either get them stolen from a job site, or because they might get deported at any time and don't want to have any more money invested in tools than absolutely necessary? |
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:50:02 +0000, USENET READER wrote:
Well - the real question is - are any of the largely illegal immigrant construction workers buying quality American-made tools, or are they spending as little money as possible on tools as they might either get them stolen from a job site, or because they might get deported at any time and don't want to have any more money invested in tools than absolutely necessary? And I'm sure your people just sprung up out of the ground? Are you American Indian? It's nice that your trying to pin the quality/manufacturing of these tools an illegal immigrants. All these "mexicans" are doing is buying what they can afford. You and your friends should be ****ed at the contractors who are *Hiring* these laborers. They hire these people because they are cheaper, non-union and they are disposable. The real problems are the corporations that are dismantling the American economy factory by factory and selling the machinery and technology to "Red China". Wal-Mart is the largest of the leaders in this new movement: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/ So I suggest that you stop trolling and watch the above line and learn something........ -- Yard Works Gardening Co. http://www.ywgc.com |
Black & Decker actually makes drills and some other handtools at a factory
in Fayetteville....but some product lines are moving to Mexico this year. and Kennametal in Asheboro makes metal cutting bits. |
USENET READER wrote:
I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that few power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the Craftsman brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in Taiwan (a democracy I have no problem doing business with) and Red China (perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country where the factories are owned by the state and staffed with slave labor). Are you stuck in the '80s? Most Chinese companies have been privatized. Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the reconditioned DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is garbage and usually dies after a short period of time. Grinders and drills come with extra electric motor brushes which almost always get lost by the time you need them - and you will. HF always tries to sell you an extended warranty program, and most people I know don't buy them - even though for all intents and purposes, if you buy the EW, you can bring back the tool and swap it for a new one anytime the older one doesn't work. So other than the time you lose always gong to HF to exchange tools, that does seem like a good deal. How can American companies compete with that? They can't as long as American consumers puy the cheapest product they can find. IMO, Harbor Freight should not even be in business, but as long as people keep buying the junk, they'll survive. But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned something about the construction trades which made me wonder if any more tools are going to be made in the USA? There are some, but do you and your friends try to find them? Are you willing to pay a higher price to buy them? One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and harder to find American made tools of his trade in the stores. The Chinese-made crap (his words) are cheaply made, don't hold up to continued professional work, rivets pop, everything rusts unless you soak it in oil (which is not good for the mortar or cement, mason's hoes break after one use, etc. That's what happens when you buy the lowest cost tool. The other guy runs a catering truck that runs around to construction sites. He says that, except for the licensed trades (electricians and who are mostly younger white guys), the plumber (who are mostly older white guys) and the bricklayers (who are mostly African American) - everybody else is Mexican and they almost only speak Spanish and need a bi-lingual supervisor on the job. This supervisor - who is not dressed out for work - usually stands around talking on his cell phone, looking at his steel and gold Rolex watch - is a white guy. That's different than the crews I've seen. And the Mexican laborers I've seen are usually working their asses off. Can't say the same about some of the "American" crews I've seen. Well - the real question is - are any of the largely illegal immigrant construction workers buying quality American-made tools, or are they spending as little money as possible on tools as they might either get them stolen from a job site, or because they might get deported at any time and don't want to have any more money invested in tools than absolutely necessary? They probably represent a small total of the tool buyers. Don't try turn this into someone else's fault. The American consumer is choosing the cheapest product, which is not going to be made in the US. |
"C G" wrote in message . com... USENET READER wrote: I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that few power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the Craftsman brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in Taiwan (a democracy I have no problem doing business with) and Red China (perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country where the factories are owned by the state and staffed with slave labor). Are you stuck in the '80s? Most Chinese companies have been privatized. Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the reconditioned DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is garbage and usually dies after a short period of time. Grinders and drills come with extra electric motor brushes which almost always get lost by the time you need them - and you will. HF always tries to sell you an extended warranty program, and most people I know don't buy them - even though for all intents and purposes, if you buy the EW, you can bring back the tool and swap it for a new one anytime the older one doesn't work. So other than the time you lose always gong to HF to exchange tools, that does seem like a good deal. How can American companies compete with that? They can't as long as American consumers puy the cheapest product they can find. IMO, Harbor Freight should not even be in business, but as long as people keep buying the junk, they'll survive. But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned something about the construction trades which made me wonder if any more tools are going to be made in the USA? There are some, but do you and your friends try to find them? Are you willing to pay a higher price to buy them? One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and harder to find American made tools of his trade in the stores. The Chinese-made crap (his words) are cheaply made, don't hold up to continued professional work, rivets pop, everything rusts unless you soak it in oil (which is not good for the mortar or cement, mason's hoes break after one use, etc. That's what happens when you buy the lowest cost tool. The other guy runs a catering truck that runs around to construction sites. He says that, except for the licensed trades (electricians and who are mostly younger white guys), the plumber (who are mostly older white guys) and the bricklayers (who are mostly African American) - everybody else is Mexican and they almost only speak Spanish and need a bi-lingual supervisor on the job. This supervisor - who is not dressed out for work - usually stands around talking on his cell phone, looking at his steel and gold Rolex watch - is a white guy. That's different than the crews I've seen. And the Mexican laborers I've seen are usually working their asses off. Can't say the same about some of the "American" crews I've seen. Amen! The Mexican workers around here bust their asses working two full-time jobs that no one else wants. They are some of the hardest-working and most honest workers we have in my area. Wal-mart survives because people actually WANT to buy crap for low prices. If they didn't want it, China wouldn't produce it. Blame yourselves, not the immigrants nor the foreign competition. |
USENET READER wrote:
I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that few power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the Craftsman brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in Taiwan (a democracy I have no problem doing business with) and Red China (perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country where the factories are owned by the state and staffed with slave labor). Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the reconditioned DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is garbage and usually dies after a short period of time. Grinders and drills come with extra electric motor brushes which almost always get lost by the time you need them - and you will. HF always tries to sell you an extended warranty program, and most people I know don't buy them - even though for all intents and purposes, if you buy the EW, you can bring back the tool and swap it for a new one anytime the older one doesn't work. So other than the time you lose always gong to HF to exchange tools, that does seem like a good deal. How can American companies compete with that? But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned something about the construction trades which made me wonder if any more tools are going to be made in the USA? One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and harder to find American made tools of his trade in the stores. The Chinese-made crap (his words) are cheaply made, don't hold up to continued professional work, rivets pop, everything rusts unless you soak it in oil (which is not good for the mortar or cement, mason's hoes break after one use, etc. The other guy runs a catering truck that runs around to construction sites. He says that, except for the licensed trades (electricians and who are mostly younger white guys), the plumber (who are mostly older white guys) and the bricklayers (who are mostly African American) - everybody else is Mexican and they almost only speak Spanish and need a bi-lingual supervisor on the job. This supervisor - who is not dressed out for work - usually stands around talking on his cell phone, looking at his steel and gold Rolex watch - is a white guy. Well - the real question is - are any of the largely illegal immigrant construction workers buying quality American-made tools, or are they spending as little money as possible on tools as they might either get them stolen from a job site, or because they might get deported at any time and don't want to have any more money invested in tools than absolutely necessary? Trade protectionist!!!! Why do you hate Amerika?? Damned liberal whacko!!!! |
No - my family immigrated to this country legally - half through Ellis
Island and the other half through other legal ports. And actually - I know a shitload more about politics in general and this issue in particular than you probably do. So you can take your advice to watch and learn and stick it! Of course I blame the contractors who hire the illegals. I also blame all the other managers and owners of other business who hire illegals for less money than they pay citizens and legal immigrants. And I blame the politicans who get bribed to look the other way when they take money from these businesses and also from right-wing foundations to study market-based solutions to public policy issues. Timothy wrote: On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:50:02 +0000, USENET READER wrote: Well - the real question is - are any of the largely illegal immigrant construction workers buying quality American-made tools, or are they spending as little money as possible on tools as they might either get them stolen from a job site, or because they might get deported at any time and don't want to have any more money invested in tools than absolutely necessary? And I'm sure your people just sprung up out of the ground? Are you American Indian? It's nice that your trying to pin the quality/manufacturing of these tools an illegal immigrants. All these "mexicans" are doing is buying what they can afford. You and your friends should be ****ed at the contractors who are *Hiring* these laborers. They hire these people because they are cheaper, non-union and they are disposable. The real problems are the corporations that are dismantling the American economy factory by factory and selling the machinery and technology to "Red China". Wal-Mart is the largest of the leaders in this new movement: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/ So I suggest that you stop trolling and watch the above line and learn something........ |
C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that few power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the Craftsman brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in Taiwan (a democracy I have no problem doing business with) and Red China (perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country where the factories are owned by the state and staffed with slave labor). Are you stuck in the '80s? Most Chinese companies have been privatized. And who owns these private companies? Mostly it is well-connected members of the ChiCom party - so for all intents and purposes, it is still owned by those who run the government. Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the reconditioned DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is garbage and usually dies after a short period of time. Grinders and drills come with extra electric motor brushes which almost always get lost by the time you need them - and you will. HF always tries to sell you an extended warranty program, and most people I know don't buy them - even though for all intents and purposes, if you buy the EW, you can bring back the tool and swap it for a new one anytime the older one doesn't work. So other than the time you lose always gong to HF to exchange tools, that does seem like a good deal. How can American companies compete with that? They can't as long as American consumers puy the cheapest product they can find. IMO, Harbor Freight should not even be in business, but as long as people keep buying the junk, they'll survive. It's a vicious cycle - people's wages don't keep up with inflation, so they either look for cheaper stuff or they have no other choice. And when a store finds it is stocked with goods no one can afford to buy, they go with cheaper stuff to stay in business. It's everyone's fault, but mostly with big business for going overseas in the first place. And when you are trying to compete with some other contractor who hires Mexican illegals, you gotta try and cut your costs as much as you can. If the government enforced it's immigration laws, fined or arrested employers for hiring illegals, shipped the illegals back over the border, and sealed the border up with higher walls that couldn't be cut through or climbed over. But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned something about the construction trades which made me wonder if any more tools are going to be made in the USA? There are some, but do you and your friends try to find them? Are you willing to pay a higher price to buy them? Actually - yes I am - but it is a lot of work trying to find American made tools. One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and harder to find American made tools of his trade in the stores. The Chinese-made crap (his words) are cheaply made, don't hold up to continued professional work, rivets pop, everything rusts unless you soak it in oil (which is not good for the mortar or cement, mason's hoes break after one use, etc. That's what happens when you buy the lowest cost tool. If that's all the stores sell, you either buy it or you don't work. The other guy runs a catering truck that runs around to construction sites. He says that, except for the licensed trades (electricians and who are mostly younger white guys), the plumber (who are mostly older white guys) and the bricklayers (who are mostly African American) - everybody else is Mexican and they almost only speak Spanish and need a bi-lingual supervisor on the job. This supervisor - who is not dressed out for work - usually stands around talking on his cell phone, looking at his steel and gold Rolex watch - is a white guy. That's different than the crews I've seen. And the Mexican laborers I've seen are usually working their asses off. Can't say the same about some of the "American" crews I've seen. They work their asses off - not neccesarilly getting anything done, or working smarter either. Can't tell you how many cut phone and cable lines, water pipes and ther stuff that gets done by this hard workers. Also - they seem to die or get injured in the workplace either because the bosses don't want them to work with safety equipment or use safe workplace practices (because it costs too much) or because they didn't work that way back in Mexico. My friends work hard, work smart, work careful, and do good quality work. They pay there self-employment FICA, state and federal taxes, they pay their insurance, and they buy good quality american-made tools when they can. They just keep getting underbid by companies that hire illegals. Well - the real question is - are any of the largely illegal immigrant construction workers buying quality American-made tools, or are they spending as little money as possible on tools as they might either get them stolen from a job site, or because they might get deported at any time and don't want to have any more money invested in tools than absolutely necessary? They probably represent a small total of the tool buyers. Don't try turn this into someone else's fault. The American consumer is choosing the cheapest product, which is not going to be made in the US. The American consumer isn't always choosing the cheapest product - sometimes it's all the consumer can find. When a company like Lowe's can buy cheap chinese made crap for 10% of what they pay Marshalltown, and can sell it for half of what an American made product sells for, they will not want to have so much money tied up in inventory and they realize that they can make more money selling crap that falls apart and needs to be repurchased more often. |
Oscar_Lives wrote: "C G" wrote in message . com... USENET READER wrote: I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that few power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the Craftsman brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in Taiwan (a democracy I have no problem doing business with) and Red China (perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country where the factories are owned by the state and staffed with slave labor). Are you stuck in the '80s? Most Chinese companies have been privatized. Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the reconditioned DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is garbage and usually dies after a short period of time. Grinders and drills come with extra electric motor brushes which almost always get lost by the time you need them - and you will. HF always tries to sell you an extended warranty program, and most people I know don't buy them - even though for all intents and purposes, if you buy the EW, you can bring back the tool and swap it for a new one anytime the older one doesn't work. So other than the time you lose always gong to HF to exchange tools, that does seem like a good deal. How can American companies compete with that? They can't as long as American consumers puy the cheapest product they can find. IMO, Harbor Freight should not even be in business, but as long as people keep buying the junk, they'll survive. But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned something about the construction trades which made me wonder if any more tools are going to be made in the USA? There are some, but do you and your friends try to find them? Are you willing to pay a higher price to buy them? One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and harder to find American made tools of his trade in the stores. The Chinese-made crap (his words) are cheaply made, don't hold up to continued professional work, rivets pop, everything rusts unless you soak it in oil (which is not good for the mortar or cement, mason's hoes break after one use, etc. That's what happens when you buy the lowest cost tool. The other guy runs a catering truck that runs around to construction sites. He says that, except for the licensed trades (electricians and who are mostly younger white guys), the plumber (who are mostly older white guys) and the bricklayers (who are mostly African American) - everybody else is Mexican and they almost only speak Spanish and need a bi-lingual supervisor on the job. This supervisor - who is not dressed out for work - usually stands around talking on his cell phone, looking at his steel and gold Rolex watch - is a white guy. That's different than the crews I've seen. And the Mexican laborers I've seen are usually working their asses off. Can't say the same about some of the "American" crews I've seen. Amen! The Mexican workers around here bust their asses working two full-time jobs that no one else wants. They are some of the hardest-working and most honest workers we have in my area. They are the most honest? Define honest. If by honest you mean sneaking into the country illegally, lying about their names, using a fake social security number and stealing tools off trucks and jobs sites as being honest - then you must be a Republican to use such ****ed-up logic like that. They work two jobs because they aren't getting paid enough on one job to live here in the Triangle, and send enough money back home. And no citizens or legal immigrants want the jobs at what these employers are willing to pay - which is less than min wage in some cases. Are you saying that America is about people working for slave labor wages being exploited by ruthless employers who are trying to **** them over at every turn? That is something to strive for, isn't it? Wal-mart survives because people actually WANT to buy crap for low prices. If they didn't want it, China wouldn't produce it. Blame yourselves, not the immigrants nor the foreign competition. Go **** yourself - I blame the big corporations until someone can make a logical and rational argument that can prove otherwise. |
Rodney Rash wrote: USENET READER wrote: I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that few power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the Craftsman brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in Taiwan (a democracy I have no problem doing business with) and Red China (perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country where the factories are owned by the state and staffed with slave labor). Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the reconditioned DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is garbage and usually dies after a short period of time. Grinders and drills come with extra electric motor brushes which almost always get lost by the time you need them - and you will. HF always tries to sell you an extended warranty program, and most people I know don't buy them - even though for all intents and purposes, if you buy the EW, you can bring back the tool and swap it for a new one anytime the older one doesn't work. So other than the time you lose always gong to HF to exchange tools, that does seem like a good deal. How can American companies compete with that? But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned something about the construction trades which made me wonder if any more tools are going to be made in the USA? One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and harder to find American made tools of his trade in the stores. The Chinese-made crap (his words) are cheaply made, don't hold up to continued professional work, rivets pop, everything rusts unless you soak it in oil (which is not good for the mortar or cement, mason's hoes break after one use, etc. The other guy runs a catering truck that runs around to construction sites. He says that, except for the licensed trades (electricians and who are mostly younger white guys), the plumber (who are mostly older white guys) and the bricklayers (who are mostly African American) - everybody else is Mexican and they almost only speak Spanish and need a bi-lingual supervisor on the job. This supervisor - who is not dressed out for work - usually stands around talking on his cell phone, looking at his steel and gold Rolex watch - is a white guy. Well - the real question is - are any of the largely illegal immigrant construction workers buying quality American-made tools, or are they spending as little money as possible on tools as they might either get them stolen from a job site, or because they might get deported at any time and don't want to have any more money invested in tools than absolutely necessary? Trade protectionist!!!! Why do you hate Amerika?? Damned liberal whacko!!!! I don't hate America. I love America. I just wonder why fascist assholes like you continue to support trade policies set by big corporations designed to rob American workers of hard won wage and hour and workplace health and safety laws that ultimately will lead to the destruction of the middle class. |
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:08:20 +0000, USENET READER wrote:
No - my family immigrated to this country legally - half through Ellis Island and the other half through other legal ports. And actually - I know a shitload more about politics in general and this issue in particular than you probably do. So you can take your advice to watch and learn and stick it! Of course I blame the contractors who hire the illegals. I also blame all the other managers and owners of other business who hire illegals for less money than they pay citizens and legal immigrants. And I blame the politicans who get bribed to look the other way when they take money from these businesses and also from right-wing foundations to study market-based solutions to public policy issues. Who really give a crap on how your family got here? Legal...illegal, they still came here... and why did they do that? Looking for a better life than what the could find in the hole they crawled out of I'm sure. That's all these "illegal" immigrants are trying to do. You presume too much about me when it comes to politics, I'm a blue dog Democrat.I grew up in the Ohio Valley, watching my Dad work 16 hours a day at Weirton Steel, standing with him on the picket lines, collecting cans so we could eat. STFU! You have no high ground here Sir. I've remember when it was Japan that was dumping steel on the global market and we just about starved. Sucks to have to eat goverment cheese. All your posts' are doing,(besides one huge F'ing troll for attention) is blaming everyone around you for the problems of the American economy. You sure was thinking about buying American when you bought your VW, now wern't ya. Are you protesting the union breaking that's going on? Are you shopping as locally as possible? Are you supporting your local mom and pops, or are you bitchin' about the crap tools at Lowes? I too live someplace with a large "immigrant" population. Be it mexican or korean or russian, going to the grocery store is like going to a different country due to all the different languages floating in the air. All these people are doing is to look for a better life. And you damn well get used to it. You sure as hell not going to do the jobs that these people due for the wage that they get. The American workers are some of the highest paid workers in the world, be ready for your pay cut and you can thank the new corporate modle for that. Remember, even in the worst of times, your standard of living is still far and above 4 billion other people in this world ... and always will be. Quit yer bitchin' and start buying American, start by selling your VW....lol -- Yard Works Gardening Co. http://www.ywgc.com |
USENET READER wrote:
Rodney Rash wrote: USENET READER wrote: I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that few power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the Craftsman brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in Taiwan (a democracy I have no problem doing business with) and Red China (perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country where the factories are owned by the state and staffed with slave labor). Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the reconditioned DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is garbage and usually dies after a short period of time. Grinders and drills come with extra electric motor brushes which almost always get lost by the time you need them - and you will. HF always tries to sell you an extended warranty program, and most people I know don't buy them - even though for all intents and purposes, if you buy the EW, you can bring back the tool and swap it for a new one anytime the older one doesn't work. So other than the time you lose always gong to HF to exchange tools, that does seem like a good deal. How can American companies compete with that? But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned something about the construction trades which made me wonder if any more tools are going to be made in the USA? One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and harder to find American made tools of his trade in the stores. The Chinese-made crap (his words) are cheaply made, don't hold up to continued professional work, rivets pop, everything rusts unless you soak it in oil (which is not good for the mortar or cement, mason's hoes break after one use, etc. The other guy runs a catering truck that runs around to construction sites. He says that, except for the licensed trades (electricians and who are mostly younger white guys), the plumber (who are mostly older white guys) and the bricklayers (who are mostly African American) - everybody else is Mexican and they almost only speak Spanish and need a bi-lingual supervisor on the job. This supervisor - who is not dressed out for work - usually stands around talking on his cell phone, looking at his steel and gold Rolex watch - is a white guy. Well - the real question is - are any of the largely illegal immigrant construction workers buying quality American-made tools, or are they spending as little money as possible on tools as they might either get them stolen from a job site, or because they might get deported at any time and don't want to have any more money invested in tools than absolutely necessary? Trade protectionist!!!! Why do you hate Amerika?? Damned liberal whacko!!!! I don't hate America. I love America. I just wonder why fascist assholes like you continue to support trade policies set by big corporations designed to rob American workers of hard won wage and hour and workplace health and safety laws that ultimately will lead to the destruction of the middle class. Ha!! I paid more in taxes than you earned all year. And do you know how I EARNED that money? Buying fareast stock. You have to be smart my friend. Smart. 5 years ago I was a factory slob. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. |
Timothy wrote:
shopping as locally as possible? Are you supporting your local mom and pops, or are you bitchin' about the crap tools at Lowes? Great insight. I found my American cast axe in a locally owned hardware store, not part of a chain. Gregor |
"USENET READER" wrote in message ink.net... It's a vicious cycle - people's wages don't keep up with inflation, so they either look for cheaper stuff or they have no other choice. And when a store finds it is stocked with goods no one can afford to buy, they go with cheaper stuff to stay in business. It's everyone's fault, but mostly with big business for going overseas in the first place. Wrong. Greedy consumers think they have to have every device and every luxury available nowadays. Even the poor have cadillacs, cell phones, game boys, ipods, and $250 tennis shoes. ****ing stupid people with no self control and no brains are to blame for this mess. And when you are trying to compete with some other contractor who hires Mexican illegals, you gotta try and cut your costs as much as you can. If the government enforced it's immigration laws, fined or arrested employers for hiring illegals, shipped the illegals back over the border, and sealed the border up with higher walls that couldn't be cut through or climbed over. Stupid ****. We aren't talking about illegal aliens. We are talking about damn hard working immigrants doing jobs that fat lazy americans who are used to living on the dole won't do. But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned something about the construction trades which made me wonder if any more tools are going to be made in the USA? There are some, but do you and your friends try to find them? Are you willing to pay a higher price to buy them? Actually - yes I am - but it is a lot of work trying to find American made tools. Yeah, because no-skilled union american workers think they have to be paid $25 an hour to manufacture these tools. One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and harder to find American made tools of his trade in the stores. The Chinese-made crap (his words) are cheaply made, don't hold up to continued professional work, rivets pop, everything rusts unless you soak it in oil (which is not good for the mortar or cement, mason's hoes break after one use, etc. That's what happens when you buy the lowest cost tool. If that's all the stores sell, you either buy it or you don't work. That's different than the crews I've seen. And the Mexican laborers I've seen are usually working their asses off. Can't say the same about some of the "American" crews I've seen. They work their asses off - not neccesarilly getting anything done, or working smarter either. Can't tell you how many cut phone and cable lines, water pipes and ther stuff that gets done by this hard workers. Also - they seem to die or get injured in the workplace either because the bosses don't want them to work with safety equipment or use safe workplace practices (because it costs too much) or because they didn't work that way back in Mexico. My friends work hard, work smart, work careful, and do good quality work. They pay there self-employment FICA, state and federal taxes, they pay their insurance, and they buy good quality american-made tools when they can. They just keep getting underbid by companies that hire illegals. And don't forget all the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who strangle productivity because of stupid labor rules that require 5 shovel-leaners for every one worker. Well - the real question is - are any of the largely illegal immigrant construction workers buying quality American-made tools, or are they spending as little money as possible on tools as they might either get them stolen from a job site, or because they might get deported at any time and don't want to have any more money invested in tools than absolutely necessary? They probably represent a small total of the tool buyers. Don't try turn this into someone else's fault. The American consumer is choosing the cheapest product, which is not going to be made in the US. The American consumer isn't always choosing the cheapest product - sometimes it's all the consumer can find. When a company like Lowe's can buy cheap chinese made crap for 10% of what they pay Marshalltown, and can sell it for half of what an American made product sells for, they will not want to have so much money tied up in inventory and they realize that they can make more money selling crap that falls apart and needs to be repurchased more often. American consumers are too stupid, lazy, and looking for instant gratification that they think they are owed by the government. They won't work hard and save and take care of what they have. They want more more more disposable shit and they want the government or the corporation or "the man" to give it to them because they think they "deserve it". |
"Rodney Rash" wrote in message news:3yEFd.4580$OF5.1806@attbi_s52... USENET READER wrote: Rodney Rash wrote: USENET READER wrote: I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that few power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the Craftsman brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in Taiwan (a democracy I have no problem doing business with) and Red China (perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country where the factories are owned by the state and staffed with slave labor). Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the reconditioned DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is garbage and usually dies after a short period of time. Grinders and drills come with extra electric motor brushes which almost always get lost by the time you need them - and you will. HF always tries to sell you an extended warranty program, and most people I know don't buy them - even though for all intents and purposes, if you buy the EW, you can bring back the tool and swap it for a new one anytime the older one doesn't work. So other than the time you lose always gong to HF to exchange tools, that does seem like a good deal. How can American companies compete with that? But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned something about the construction trades which made me wonder if any more tools are going to be made in the USA? One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and harder to find American made tools of his trade in the stores. The Chinese-made crap (his words) are cheaply made, don't hold up to continued professional work, rivets pop, everything rusts unless you soak it in oil (which is not good for the mortar or cement, mason's hoes break after one use, etc. The other guy runs a catering truck that runs around to construction sites. He says that, except for the licensed trades (electricians and who are mostly younger white guys), the plumber (who are mostly older white guys) and the bricklayers (who are mostly African American) - everybody else is Mexican and they almost only speak Spanish and need a bi-lingual supervisor on the job. This supervisor - who is not dressed out for work - usually stands around talking on his cell phone, looking at his steel and gold Rolex watch - is a white guy. Well - the real question is - are any of the largely illegal immigrant construction workers buying quality American-made tools, or are they spending as little money as possible on tools as they might either get them stolen from a job site, or because they might get deported at any time and don't want to have any more money invested in tools than absolutely necessary? Trade protectionist!!!! Why do you hate Amerika?? Damned liberal whacko!!!! I don't hate America. I love America. I just wonder why fascist assholes like you continue to support trade policies set by big corporations designed to rob American workers of hard won wage and hour and workplace health and safety laws that ultimately will lead to the destruction of the middle class. You don't love America. I'll bet you are on public assistance or are a fag with an agenda against everything that this country was founded upon and you are mad at God for making you queer. |
"Gregor" wrote
shopping as locally as possible? Are you supporting your local mom and pops, or are you bitchin' about the crap tools at Lowes? Great insight. I found my American cast axe in a locally owned hardware store, not part of a chain. I remember the days when many Americans made their own damn axes because there wasn't a store for ninety miles from their homestead. Everyone thought the next generation was going to hellfire and damnation because they couldn't make their own tools. Turns out, they made more valuable things[1] instead. This exact same scenario is going play out with computers, but never mind. The old fogeys would rather remain in the years gone by. 1. A service economy does have it's rickity underpinnings. I'm trying hard to not make a tsunami reference. --Ted |
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:08:20 GMT, USENET READER
wrote: No - my family immigrated to this country legally - half through Ellis Island and the other half through other legal ports. And actually - I know a shitload more about politics in general and this issue in particular than you probably do. So you can take your advice to watch and learn and stick it! Of course I blame the contractors who hire the illegals. I also blame all the other managers and owners of other business who hire illegals for less money than they pay citizens and legal immigrants. And I blame the politicans who get bribed to look the other way when they take money from these businesses and also from right-wing foundations to study market-based solutions to public policy issues. Do you also blame the customer who looks for the lowest price? |
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:44:57 -0800, Timothy
wrote: On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:08:20 +0000, USENET READER wrote: No - my family immigrated to this country legally - half through Ellis Island and the other half through other legal ports. And actually - I know a shitload more about politics in general and this issue in particular than you probably do. So you can take your advice to watch and learn and stick it! Of course I blame the contractors who hire the illegals. I also blame all the other managers and owners of other business who hire illegals for less money than they pay citizens and legal immigrants. And I blame the politicans who get bribed to look the other way when they take money from these businesses and also from right-wing foundations to study market-based solutions to public policy issues. Who really give a crap on how your family got here? Legal...illegal, they still came here... and why did they do that? Looking for a better life than what the could find in the hole they crawled out of I'm sure. That's all these "illegal" immigrants are trying to do. My great-great grandfather claimed to be a Frenchman in order to emigrate to the US in the mid-1800s, because the quota for Germans was already filled. Am I going to be deported to Germany? |
USENET READER wrote:
C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that few power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the Craftsman brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in Taiwan (a democracy I have no problem doing business with) and Red China (perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country where the factories are owned by the state and staffed with slave labor). Are you stuck in the '80s? Most Chinese companies have been privatized. And who owns these private companies? Mostly it is well-connected members of the ChiCom party - so for all intents and purposes, it is still owned by those who run the government. Still stuck in the '80s. The ownership has been changing for quite a while now, but I would not have expected you to be informed enough to know this. Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the reconditioned DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is garbage and usually dies after a short period of time. Grinders and drills come with extra electric motor brushes which almost always get lost by the time you need them - and you will. HF always tries to sell you an extended warranty program, and most people I know don't buy them - even though for all intents and purposes, if you buy the EW, you can bring back the tool and swap it for a new one anytime the older one doesn't work. So other than the time you lose always gong to HF to exchange tools, that does seem like a good deal. How can American companies compete with that? They can't as long as American consumers puy the cheapest product they can find. IMO, Harbor Freight should not even be in business, but as long as people keep buying the junk, they'll survive. It's a vicious cycle - people's wages don't keep up with inflation, so they either look for cheaper stuff or they have no other choice. And when a store finds it is stocked with goods no one can afford to buy, they go with cheaper stuff to stay in business. It's everyone's fault, but mostly with big business for going overseas in the first place. The problem didn't start with wages, it started with American consumers wanting the cheapest possible price, with little regard for quality. Look at shop tools. When companies like Grizzly came on the scene, people endorsed their products because they were a few bucks cheaper than someone like Delta. And when you are trying to compete with some other contractor who hires Mexican illegals, you gotta try and cut your costs as much as you can. Yes, you do. If the government enforced it's immigration laws, fined or arrested employers for hiring illegals, shipped the illegals back over the border, and sealed the border up with higher walls that couldn't be cut through or climbed over. No disagreement here. For the past 4 years I've been working to help someone from another country come here legally. It ****es me off that the government makes all kinds of exceptions for illegals, and that so many people look the other way so they can take advantage of the cheap labor that illegals represent. But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned something about the construction trades which made me wonder if any more tools are going to be made in the USA? There are some, but do you and your friends try to find them? Are you willing to pay a higher price to buy them? Actually - yes I am - but it is a lot of work trying to find American made tools. One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and harder to find American made tools of his trade in the stores. The Chinese-made crap (his words) are cheaply made, don't hold up to continued professional work, rivets pop, everything rusts unless you soak it in oil (which is not good for the mortar or cement, mason's hoes break after one use, etc. That's what happens when you buy the lowest cost tool. If that's all the stores sell, you either buy it or you don't work. It's all the stores sell because years ago people voted, with their money, for cheap imports. It also happened because in many cases, the American products were overpriced junk. The other guy runs a catering truck that runs around to construction sites. He says that, except for the licensed trades (electricians and who are mostly younger white guys), the plumber (who are mostly older white guys) and the bricklayers (who are mostly African American) - everybody else is Mexican and they almost only speak Spanish and need a bi-lingual supervisor on the job. This supervisor - who is not dressed out for work - usually stands around talking on his cell phone, looking at his steel and gold Rolex watch - is a white guy. That's different than the crews I've seen. And the Mexican laborers I've seen are usually working their asses off. Can't say the same about some of the "American" crews I've seen. They work their asses off - not neccesarilly getting anything done, or working smarter either. Can't tell you how many cut phone and cable lines, water pipes and ther stuff that gets done by this hard workers. That is most likely the fault of the contractor, for failing to have the said line marked, than the workers. Also - they seem to die or get injured in the workplace either because the bosses don't want them to work with safety equipment or use safe workplace practices (because it costs too much) or because they didn't work that way back in Mexico. My friends work hard, work smart, work careful, and do good quality work. They pay there self-employment FICA, state and federal taxes, they pay their insurance, and they buy good quality american-made tools when they can. They just keep getting underbid by companies that hire illegals. Yup, and unless we all do something about it, the problem will continue. Well - the real question is - are any of the largely illegal immigrant construction workers buying quality American-made tools, or are they spending as little money as possible on tools as they might either get them stolen from a job site, or because they might get deported at any time and don't want to have any more money invested in tools than absolutely necessary? They probably represent a small total of the tool buyers. Don't try turn this into someone else's fault. The American consumer is choosing the cheapest product, which is not going to be made in the US. The American consumer isn't always choosing the cheapest product - sometimes it's all the consumer can find. When a company like Lowe's can buy cheap chinese made crap for 10% of what they pay Marshalltown, and can sell it for half of what an American made product sells for, they will not want to have so much money tied up in inventory and they realize that they can make more money selling crap that falls apart and needs to be repurchased more often. I'd say most American consumers shop by price, with quality factored in to some extent, rather than by country of origin. |
On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 02:05:59 GMT, "Oscar_Lives"
wrote: "USENET READER" wrote in message link.net... It's a vicious cycle - people's wages don't keep up with inflation, so they either look for cheaper stuff or they have no other choice. And when a store finds it is stocked with goods no one can afford to buy, they go with cheaper stuff to stay in business. It's everyone's fault, but mostly with big business for going overseas in the first place. Wrong. Greedy consumers think they have to have every device and every luxury available nowadays. Even the poor have cadillacs, cell phones, game boys, ipods, and $250 tennis shoes. ****ing stupid people with no self control and no brains are to blame for this mess. If only the US were a dictatorship, you could stop this waste! Ain't it a shame you don't run the country? |
C G wrote:
USENET READER wrote: C G wrote: That's what happens when you buy the lowest cost tool. If that's all the stores sell, you either buy it or you don't work. It's all the stores sell because years ago people voted, with their money, for cheap imports. It also happened because in many cases, the American products were overpriced junk. [ just a quickie observation: ] Nope. From everything I've seen in the past few years, it was the idiot, strip-mining MBAs demanding more profits this quarter, pressuring buyers and store managers to replace the stuff on the shelves with something containing a higher profit margin. So they dropped the el cheapo model, the mid-range, and the high end - replacing them with only one offering: an inferior Chinese model bought for a song, but selling at 80% of the excellent-quality high-end version price. Since it is the only widget available, those who *need* a widget buy it. |
Dweezil Dwarftosser wrote:
C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: C G wrote: That's what happens when you buy the lowest cost tool. If that's all the stores sell, you either buy it or you don't work. It's all the stores sell because years ago people voted, with their money, for cheap imports. It also happened because in many cases, the American products were overpriced junk. [ just a quickie observation: ] Nope. From everything I've seen in the past few years, it was the idiot, strip-mining MBAs demanding more profits this quarter, pressuring buyers and store managers to replace the stuff on the shelves with something containing a higher profit margin. So they dropped the el cheapo model, the mid-range, and the high end - replacing them with only one offering: an inferior Chinese model bought for a song, but selling at 80% of the excellent-quality high-end version price. Since it is the only widget available, those who *need* a widget buy it. It started way before the "past few years". If we, the consumers, had not started down the cheap tool path the businesses such as Harbor Freight, Grizzly, etc would not have survived. Since we did start down that path, other businesses decided they needed to follow that model. |
USENET READER wrote:
C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: ... Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the reconditioned DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is garbage and usually dies after a short period of time. Grinders and drills come with extra electric motor brushes which almost always get lost by the time you need them - and you will. HF always tries to sell you an extended warranty program, and most people I know don't buy them - even though for all intents and purposes, if you buy the EW, you can bring back the tool and swap it for a new one anytime the older one doesn't work. So other than the time you lose always gong to HF to exchange tools, that does seem like a good deal. How can American companies compete with that? They can't as long as American consumers puy the cheapest product they can find. IMO, Harbor Freight should not even be in business, but as long as people keep buying the junk, they'll survive. It's a vicious cycle - people's wages don't keep up with inflation, so they either look for cheaper stuff or they have no other choice. ... Really? So then why have rates of ownership of items such as cars, TVs, other consumer electronics, major appliances, and (most likely) power tools gone *up*? It's not that people are forced to 'settle' for cheaper goods than they were buying before - it's that whole new classes of people are now empowered to *be* buyers for things such as dishwashers and jig saws. Those people are often going to buy their first lathe from Harbor Freight, just as they will buy their first DVD player from Wal-Mart. ... If the government enforced it's immigration laws, fined or arrested employers for hiring illegals, shipped the illegals back over the border, and sealed the border up with higher walls that couldn't be cut through or climbed over. ... Were you going somewhere with this sentence? It seems to end abruptly. ... My friends work hard, work smart, work careful, and do good quality work. They pay there self-employment FICA, state and federal taxes, they pay their insurance, and they buy good quality american-made tools when they can. They just keep getting underbid by companies that hire illegals. Maybe if their own government wasn't robbing them blind they could compete with free labor. ... The American consumer isn't always choosing the cheapest product - sometimes it's all the consumer can find. When a company like Lowe's can buy cheap chinese made crap for 10% of what they pay Marshalltown, and can sell it for half of what an American made product sells for, they will not want to have so much money tied up in inventory and they realize that they can make more money selling crap that falls apart and needs to be repurchased more often. God, what bellyaching! *Cheap* power tools now are better than the *expensive* power tools of a generation ago - and anyone can easily enough order power tools at whatever quality level he chooses to afford. And why would someone want to spend a bunch more for a tool like a drill that will last 10 years, when in five years the newer drills will probably be vastly improved and he'll want one of those anyway? -- Susan Hogarth "We dissent, secondly, because the powers vested in Congress by this constitution, must necessarily annihilate and absorb the legislative, executive, and judicial powers of the several states, and produce from their ruins one consolidated government, which from the nature of things will be an iron handed despotism, as nothing short of the supremacy of despotic sway could connect and govern these United States under one government." - Minority opinion on the ratification of US Constitution |
Dweezil Dwarftosser wrote:
Nope. From everything I've seen in the past few years, it was the idiot, strip-mining MBAs demanding more profits this quarter, pressuring buyers and store managers to replace the stuff on the shelves with something containing a higher profit margin. So they dropped the el cheapo model, the mid-range, and the high end - replacing them with only one offering: an inferior Chinese model bought for a song, but selling at 80% of the excellent-quality high-end version price. Since it is the only widget available, those who *need* a widget buy it. Could you name a few products that people *need* where only an inferior Chinese model is available? -- Susan Hogarth "We dissent, secondly, because the powers vested in Congress by this constitution, must necessarily annihilate and absorb the legislative, executive, and judicial powers of the several states, and produce from their ruins one consolidated government, which from the nature of things will be an iron handed despotism, as nothing short of the supremacy of despotic sway could connect and govern these United States under one government." - Minority opinion on the ratification of US Constitution |
On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:40:39 +0000, Susan Hogarth wrote:
Dweezil Dwarftosser wrote: Nope. From everything I've seen in the past few years, it was the idiot, strip-mining MBAs demanding more profits this quarter, pressuring buyers and store managers to replace the stuff on the shelves with something containing a higher profit margin. So they dropped the el cheapo model, the mid-range, and the high end - replacing them with only one offering: an inferior Chinese model bought for a song, but selling at 80% of the excellent-quality high-end version price. Since it is the only widget available, those who *need* a widget buy it. Could you name a few products that people *need* where only an inferior Chinese model is available? In fear of agreeing with the Dweezil, there are no longer any options in the bicycle tire market. I have a friend that worked at a bike shop and he states that there are no longer any manufactures of bicycle tires in the us, and all the manufacturing equiptment was sold. The US no longer have the ablity to manufacture bicycle tires and we exported the technology to do so. -- Yard Works Gardening Co. http://www.ywgc.com |
"Rodney Rash" wrote Ha!! I paid more in taxes than you earned all year. And do you know how I EARNED that money? Buying fareast stock. You have to be smart my friend. Smart. 5 years ago I was a factory slob. Not smart enough to hire an accountant. Go figure. |
On 1/15/2005 1:40 PM US(ET), Susan Hogarth took fingers to keys, and
typed the following: Dweezil Dwarftosser wrote: Nope. From everything I've seen in the past few years, it was the idiot, strip-mining MBAs demanding more profits this quarter, pressuring buyers and store managers to replace the stuff on the shelves with something containing a higher profit margin. So they dropped the el cheapo model, the mid-range, and the high end - replacing them with only one offering: an inferior Chinese model bought for a song, but selling at 80% of the excellent-quality high-end version price. Since it is the only widget available, those who *need* a widget buy it. Could you name a few products that people *need* where only an inferior Chinese model is available? Thanks for nothing! I was going to write down some items from my Chinese restaurant menu and all of a sudden, I wanted Chinese food. So did everyone else in the family. It cost me a trip to the restaurant in below freezing weather and $51. -- Bill |
Timothy wrote: On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:08:20 +0000, USENET READER wrote: No - my family immigrated to this country legally - half through Ellis Island and the other half through other legal ports. And actually - I know a shitload more about politics in general and this issue in particular than you probably do. So you can take your advice to watch and learn and stick it! Of course I blame the contractors who hire the illegals. I also blame all the other managers and owners of other business who hire illegals for less money than they pay citizens and legal immigrants. And I blame the politicans who get bribed to look the other way when they take money from these businesses and also from right-wing foundations to study market-based solutions to public policy issues. Who really give a crap on how your family got here? Legal...illegal, they still came here... and why did they do that? Looking for a better life than what the could find in the hole they crawled out of I'm sure. That's all these "illegal" immigrants are trying to do. Sorry - it does matter how people got here - legal is better. When you come here illegally, not only are you breaking the law, but you set yourself up for getting porly treated in the workplace and elsewhere, and who are you gonna go to to complain to, without risking getting tossed out on your ass (as you should be). You presume too much about me when it comes to politics, I'm a blue dog Democrat.I grew up in the Ohio Valley, watching my Dad work 16 hours a day at Weirton Steel, standing with him on the picket lines, collecting cans so we could eat. STFU! You have no high ground here Sir. I've remember when it was Japan that was dumping steel on the global market and we just about starved. Sucks to have to eat goverment cheese. Yes I am sure it does suck to do that - and what are you doing to take your government back from the people in power who set the country up for being outsourced? All your posts' are doing,(besides one huge F'ing troll for attention) is blaming everyone around you for the problems of the American economy. You sure was thinking about buying American when you bought your VW, now wern't ya. Are you protesting the union breaking that's going on? Are you shopping as locally as possible? Are you supporting your local mom and pops, or are you bitchin' about the crap tools at Lowes? Actually the VW is made in Mexico and I didn't buy it - someone owed me money for work done and I got the car instead of the cash. Yes I am protesting the breakups of unions. I am shopping locally and not buying stuff at big box stores. I am bitching about the crap Chinese tools sold everywhere - even at mom and pop stores. I too live someplace with a large "immigrant" population. Be it mexican or korean or russian, going to the grocery store is like going to a different country due to all the different languages floating in the air. All these people are doing is to look for a better life. And you damn well get used to it. You sure as hell not going to do the jobs that these people due for the wage that they get. The American workers are some of the highest paid workers in the world, be ready for your pay cut and you can thank the new corporate modle for that. I got no problem with people coming here for a better life - it's just that them coming here for a better life can sometimes have the effect of lowering the living standards of those of use who were born here or who came here legally. When you have a boat, you can't have everyone come to one side otherwise the boat will capsize - that is the effect of having too many people come here illegally. Actually - these people do jobs that were done years ago by Americans - janitorial work, construction work, etc. The business owners want to hold down costs - or just put more money into their own pockets - by hiring illegals because they will work cheaper. So are you saying that we should just open up the borders to anyone who wants to come here and suffer the consequences of lower wages overall and less workplace health and safety on the job, or should we cut off the flow of the illegals, throw out the illegals who are here, and that would drive up the wages? It's simply supply and demand - you decrease the supply of illegal workers, and the demand for legal workers goes up as does their pay. They get paid more, they spend more and their money can be spent here on American made products because the American worker will have more money to spend and when you have that increased income - you can afford to buy better goods. Remember, even in the worst of times, your standard of living is still far and above 4 billion other people in this world ... and always will be. Quit yer bitchin' and start buying American, start by selling your VW....lol What's the point of selling my VW - someone else would buy it who would not be buying American. What would be the point of that? Actually in my driveway I have three American cars - two GMs and a Ford. I work on them myself. I drive the VQ simply to have a manual transmission car that the other people in my family can't drive and screw it up. Are there any fuel efficient American made cars that get good milage? What do you drive? |
Tom Disque wrote: On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:44:57 -0800, Timothy wrote: On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:08:20 +0000, USENET READER wrote: No - my family immigrated to this country legally - half through Ellis Island and the other half through other legal ports. And actually - I know a shitload more about politics in general and this issue in particular than you probably do. So you can take your advice to watch and learn and stick it! Of course I blame the contractors who hire the illegals. I also blame all the other managers and owners of other business who hire illegals for less money than they pay citizens and legal immigrants. And I blame the politicans who get bribed to look the other way when they take money from these businesses and also from right-wing foundations to study market-based solutions to public policy issues. Who really give a crap on how your family got here? Legal...illegal, they still came here... and why did they do that? Looking for a better life than what the could find in the hole they crawled out of I'm sure. That's all these "illegal" immigrants are trying to do. My great-great grandfather claimed to be a Frenchman in order to emigrate to the US in the mid-1800s, because the quota for Germans was already filled. Am I going to be deported to Germany? Let's hope they make you go back! Actually, depending on where he was from (I am thinking Alsace-Lorraine) he could have been French or German at one time or the other. Did he speak both languages? |
Tom Disque wrote: On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:08:20 GMT, USENET READER wrote: No - my family immigrated to this country legally - half through Ellis Island and the other half through other legal ports. And actually - I know a shitload more about politics in general and this issue in particular than you probably do. So you can take your advice to watch and learn and stick it! Of course I blame the contractors who hire the illegals. I also blame all the other managers and owners of other business who hire illegals for less money than they pay citizens and legal immigrants. And I blame the politicans who get bribed to look the other way when they take money from these businesses and also from right-wing foundations to study market-based solutions to public policy issues. Do you also blame the customer who looks for the lowest price? It depends on circumstances - who they are and what they are buying? Lower prices do not always save someone money in the long run. Al things are not equal. If you buy a lower price good that is a piece of crap that falls apart and you have to go back and buy another, then you haven't saved money have you? Had you purchased the higher-priced quality good, you would still be using it now. You wouldn't have had to make two trips to the store, burned the gas, etc - to buy the item twice. When you buy crap at Wal Mart, you end up putting more money into the pockets of a large corporation that gets tax breaks that aren't given to smaller businesses that probably take better care of their employees. Even the Wal Mart distribution center in Henderson gets tax breaks that were never given to Roses and Roses was home based in Henderson. The lower prices you pay at Wal Mart and other big box stores comes at the price of you having to pay higher and higher taxes to make up for what Wal Mart doesn't pay in taxes as well as the lack of benefits that causes Wal Mart employees to go to hospital emergency rooms that you end up having to pay for. Then there is the issue of your spending the money on the cheaper made item - even if the quality is the same as a more expensive good. Your purchases of those goods will eventually lead to more Americans losing their jobs, and you having to pay higher taxes to make up for what they don't pay because they aren't working, or are underemployed. Sometimes paying more for a product from a Mom and Pop store is cheaper in the long run than paying a lower price with respect to what you have to make up for in higher taxes. |
Oscar_Lives wrote: "USENET READER" wrote in message ink.net... It's a vicious cycle - people's wages don't keep up with inflation, so they either look for cheaper stuff or they have no other choice. And when a store finds it is stocked with goods no one can afford to buy, they go with cheaper stuff to stay in business. It's everyone's fault, but mostly with big business for going overseas in the first place. Wrong. Greedy consumers think they have to have every device and every luxury available nowadays. Even the poor have cadillacs, cell phones, game boys, ipods, and $250 tennis shoes. ****ing stupid people with no self control and no brains are to blame for this mess. Who do you think makes the greedy consumers want all that stuff - the big companies who advertise them and also make them overseas. And when you are trying to compete with some other contractor who hires Mexican illegals, you gotta try and cut your costs as much as you can. If the government enforced it's immigration laws, fined or arrested employers for hiring illegals, shipped the illegals back over the border, and sealed the border up with higher walls that couldn't be cut through or climbed over. Stupid ****. We aren't talking about illegal aliens. We are talking about damn hard working immigrants doing jobs that fat lazy americans who are used to living on the dole won't do. Actually stupiid **** - we are talking about illegal alliens. The damn hard working immigrants you are referring to are mostly illegals. And they all drive wages down. If they weren't here, then the bosses would be forced to offer higher wages to legal workers who wouldn't need to be on the dole. Nobody on the dole wants to be on the dole - but then again being on the dole can sometimes pay more than what you make by working at those slave labor wages that the illegas get paid. But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned something about the construction trades which made me wonder if any more tools are going to be made in the USA? There are some, but do you and your friends try to find them? Are you willing to pay a higher price to buy them? Actually - yes I am - but it is a lot of work trying to find American made tools. Yeah, because no-skilled union american workers think they have to be paid $25 an hour to manufacture these tools. No - because workers who live in a country that isn't a democracy have no rights to a decent lliving wage, no right to workplace health and safety protection and no environmenta protections. Companies locate in those countries because they can get away with stuff that is illegal here in the USA. Are you saying that in addition to the lower wages, you would tolerate increased pollution, and increased risks to your health and safety on the job? What if, just to keep your job, you had to accept increased dangers on the workplace just to remain competitive - and you lost eyes and limbs on the job - it that worth keeping your job? One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and harder to find American made tools of his trade in the stores. The Chinese-made crap (his words) are cheaply made, don't hold up to continued professional work, rivets pop, everything rusts unless you soak it in oil (which is not good for the mortar or cement, mason's hoes break after one use, etc. That's what happens when you buy the lowest cost tool. If that's all the stores sell, you either buy it or you don't work. That's different than the crews I've seen. And the Mexican laborers I've seen are usually working their asses off. Can't say the same about some of the "American" crews I've seen. They work their asses off - not neccesarilly getting anything done, or working smarter either. Can't tell you how many cut phone and cable lines, water pipes and ther stuff that gets done by this hard workers. Also - they seem to die or get injured in the workplace either because the bosses don't want them to work with safety equipment or use safe workplace practices (because it costs too much) or because they didn't work that way back in Mexico. My friends work hard, work smart, work careful, and do good quality work. They pay there self-employment FICA, state and federal taxes, they pay their insurance, and they buy good quality american-made tools when they can. They just keep getting underbid by companies that hire illegals. And don't forget all the fat lazy and corrupt union workers who strangle productivity because of stupid labor rules that require 5 shovel-leaners for every one worker. Hey **** you - if it hadn't been for those brave union workers who put their lives and jobs on the line, we wouldn't have the workplace and wage protections that we have now - 40 hour workweek, overtime protection, workpace health and safety protection. In fact, all the protections you have today are due to unions and other liberal ideas. SO unless you want to be the first on the boat to go back and work in some slave labor factory in China just for the sake of showing that the bosses are always right and good, then shut the **** up! Well - the real question is - are any of the largely illegal immigrant construction workers buying quality American-made tools, or are they spending as little money as possible on tools as they might either get them stolen from a job site, or because they might get deported at any time and don't want to have any more money invested in tools than absolutely necessary? They probably represent a small total of the tool buyers. Don't try turn this into someone else's fault. The American consumer is choosing the cheapest product, which is not going to be made in the US. The American consumer isn't always choosing the cheapest product - sometimes it's all the consumer can find. When a company like Lowe's can buy cheap chinese made crap for 10% of what they pay Marshalltown, and can sell it for half of what an American made product sells for, they will not want to have so much money tied up in inventory and they realize that they can make more money selling crap that falls apart and needs to be repurchased more often. American consumers are too stupid, lazy, and looking for instant gratification that they think they are owed by the government. They won't work hard and save and take care of what they have. They want more more more disposable shit and they want the government or the corporation or "the man" to give it to them because they think they "deserve it". No actually dumb **** - American workers are smart, the most productive in the world, and willing to work hard and save for the future. But you can't save for the future if you don't have a job that pays enough for you to live on now! Actually - I can't think of anyone who wants to work hard for shit that will fall apart on them, but with greedy investors expecting a 40% return on their investment, some greedy manager will find a way to cut corners, move a factory overseas - whatever it takes to give the "ownership class" what they want at the expense of working people. Why do you dumb ****s endorse the kind of class warfare that makes investment rewarded more than hard work? Are you wone of those pukes who inherited all their wealth? |
Tom Disque wrote: On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 02:05:59 GMT, "Oscar_Lives" wrote: "USENET READER" wrote in message hlink.net... It's a vicious cycle - people's wages don't keep up with inflation, so they either look for cheaper stuff or they have no other choice. And when a store finds it is stocked with goods no one can afford to buy, they go with cheaper stuff to stay in business. It's everyone's fault, but mostly with big business for going overseas in the first place. Wrong. Greedy consumers think they have to have every device and every luxury available nowadays. Even the poor have cadillacs, cell phones, game boys, ipods, and $250 tennis shoes. ****ing stupid people with no self control and no brains are to blame for this mess. If only the US were a dictatorship, you could stop this waste! Ain't it a shame you don't run the country? No actually if we lived in a real democracy instead of a fascist state run by corporations, we could elect leaders who would put the interests of the majority of Americans ahead of that 1/2 of 1% of rich pukes that control close to 40% of the real wealth. |
C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that few power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the Craftsman brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in Taiwan (a democracy I have no problem doing business with) and Red China (perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country where the factories are owned by the state and staffed with slave labor). Are you stuck in the '80s? Most Chinese companies have been privatized. And who owns these private companies? Mostly it is well-connected members of the ChiCom party - so for all intents and purposes, it is still owned by those who run the government. Still stuck in the '80s. The ownership has been changing for quite a while now, but I would not have expected you to be informed enough to know this. No actually - your head is up your ass. Can you tell me who owns the private companies if not the party elite? They just privatized these factories and now they split the profits not with the workers, but with their American investors. So you tell me how while it has changed in shape, the end result isn't really different? Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the reconditioned DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is garbage and usually dies after a short period of time. Grinders and drills come with extra electric motor brushes which almost always get lost by the time you need them - and you will. HF always tries to sell you an extended warranty program, and most people I know don't buy them - even though for all intents and purposes, if you buy the EW, you can bring back the tool and swap it for a new one anytime the older one doesn't work. So other than the time you lose always gong to HF to exchange tools, that does seem like a good deal. How can American companies compete with that? They can't as long as American consumers puy the cheapest product they can find. IMO, Harbor Freight should not even be in business, but as long as people keep buying the junk, they'll survive. It's a vicious cycle - people's wages don't keep up with inflation, so they either look for cheaper stuff or they have no other choice. And when a store finds it is stocked with goods no one can afford to buy, they go with cheaper stuff to stay in business. It's everyone's fault, but mostly with big business for going overseas in the first place. The problem didn't start with wages, it started with American consumers wanting the cheapest possible price, with little regard for quality. Look at shop tools. When companies like Grizzly came on the scene, people endorsed their products because they were a few bucks cheaper than someone like Delta. Part of American workers wanting cheaper goods is them not getting paid enough to afford higher quality goods. Remember that fascist Henry Ford? Instead of lowering wages, he gave his workers more, realizing that if he paid them more they could afford to buy the cars he was making. Today a Wal Mart worker - if they pay rent, make care payments on a cheap car, pay for their own medica insurance, etc - they can't afford to shop in Wal Mart to buy all their family's needs. They can do that if they go on the dole - food stamps (which some of them qualify for even if they work fulll time) and if they put off regular health care and use the emergency room for chronic health care needs. And when you are trying to compete with some other contractor who hires Mexican illegals, you gotta try and cut your costs as much as you can. Yes, you do. WHy not get the government to come and haul the illegals away and bust the contractor breaking the law? Thay way he won't be competing illegally with you. A conttractor who is breaking the law like that is the equivalent of someone who cuts costs by stealing stuff to sell, or buying stolen property.. Should you compete with someone who steals or buys stolen goods by doing the same thing? Or shouldn't you insist that other employers not have an unfair advantage by obeying the laws? If the government enforced it's immigration laws, fined or arrested employers for hiring illegals, shipped the illegals back over the border, and sealed the border up with higher walls that couldn't be cut through or climbed over. No disagreement here. For the past 4 years I've been working to help someone from another country come here legally. It ****es me off that the government makes all kinds of exceptions for illegals, and that so many people look the other way so they can take advantage of the cheap labor that illegals represent. But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned something about the construction trades which made me wonder if any more tools are going to be made in the USA? There are some, but do you and your friends try to find them? Are you willing to pay a higher price to buy them? Actually - yes I am - but it is a lot of work trying to find American made tools. One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and harder to find American made tools of his trade in the stores. The Chinese-made crap (his words) are cheaply made, don't hold up to continued professional work, rivets pop, everything rusts unless you soak it in oil (which is not good for the mortar or cement, mason's hoes break after one use, etc. That's what happens when you buy the lowest cost tool. If that's all the stores sell, you either buy it or you don't work. It's all the stores sell because years ago people voted, with their money, for cheap imports. It also happened because in many cases, the American products were overpriced junk. Why was the American stuff overpriced junk - was it the rank and file worker who decided to come to work and make crap regardless of what the bosses told them to make, or was it management who had them build the crap because there wasn't anything else available? Sure - when the Japanese made better stuff for the same money, you bought the better stuff. You didn't want to throw your money away - you got more value for your money. Then when American goods caught up in quality, the Japanese moved there factories to Thailand or other cheaper countries, and then eventually Amerfcan companies couldn't compete on the price of the goods and also on the return on investments. So don't go blaming the consumers only - greedy investors who want 40% return on investments are to blame too! The other guy runs a catering truck that runs around to construction sites. He says that, except for the licensed trades (electricians and who are mostly younger white guys), the plumber (who are mostly older white guys) and the bricklayers (who are mostly African American) - everybody else is Mexican and they almost only speak Spanish and need a bi-lingual supervisor on the job. This supervisor - who is not dressed out for work - usually stands around talking on his cell phone, looking at his steel and gold Rolex watch - is a white guy. That's different than the crews I've seen. And the Mexican laborers I've seen are usually working their asses off. Can't say the same about some of the "American" crews I've seen. They work their asses off - not neccesarilly getting anything done, or working smarter either. Can't tell you how many cut phone and cable lines, water pipes and ther stuff that gets done by this hard workers. That is most likely the fault of the contractor, for failing to have the said line marked, than the workers. You ever try to call those guys to come out and mark the lines? I had to call three or four times and had to wait weeks when I wanted them marked. So if you are a contractor and you have to wait for weeks to start a project - you work without. On the other hand, the American crews I have seen usually know where the lines will be buried and can dig around them carefully and not break the lines - it takes longer and you have to work smarter and more carefully, and few of the illegal crews can do that - or want to. They just don't give a crap if the family in the nice big house has cable or not. Also - they seem to die or get injured in the workplace either because the bosses don't want them to work with safety equipment or use safe workplace practices (because it costs too much) or because they didn't work that way back in Mexico. My friends work hard, work smart, work careful, and do good quality work. They pay there self-employment FICA, state and federal taxes, they pay their insurance, and they buy good quality american-made tools when they can. They just keep getting underbid by companies that hire illegals. Yup, and unless we all do something about it, the problem will continue. Well - the real question is - are any of the largely illegal immigrant construction workers buying quality American-made tools, or are they spending as little money as possible on tools as they might either get them stolen from a job site, or because they might get deported at any time and don't want to have any more money invested in tools than absolutely necessary? They probably represent a small total of the tool buyers. Don't try turn this into someone else's fault. The American consumer is choosing the cheapest product, which is not going to be made in the US. The American consumer isn't always choosing the cheapest product - sometimes it's all the consumer can find. When a company like Lowe's can buy cheap chinese made crap for 10% of what they pay Marshalltown, and can sell it for half of what an American made product sells for, they will not want to have so much money tied up in inventory and they realize that they can make more money selling crap that falls apart and needs to be repurchased more often. I'd say most American consumers shop by price, with quality factored in to some extent, rather than by country of origin. Most Americans can't afford to do otherwise these days. But then again - some middle class peope will go buy food at Wal Mart and not at a regular grocery store even though by doing so, they are cutting off their noses to spite their faces - Wal Mart won't carry all the variety of foods that you get in a regular grocery store. |
TVs, VCRs, any sort of stereo stuff other than the very high end techie
stuff. You need a phone - they are only made in China. They suck, they have poor sound quality, the plastic is cheap, the batteries don't hold a charge that long - you want me to go on? I am sure that if it wasn't for the fact that all these greedy MBAs wanting to get big compensation packages if they can get 40% return for their stockholders (when they aren't stealing from their stockholders), and that the Chinese are artificially holding down the value of the yuan and engaging in all sorts of unfair trade practices (dumping, intellectual property crimes, etc.), American companies could invest in employee training, and in machinery and computers to increase productivity. Then we could have a variety of products that are higher quality that are made in America that Americans could purchase with pride and also know that they are helping to keep their economy going. Last month - there was a $60 billion trade deficit - that is money that isn't coming back to this country to create jobs. It's being invested over in China to build more plants to take more jobs away. It's being used to buy technology to send chinese rockets into space (and eventually with nuclear warheads), and to buy arms to eventually invade Taiwan. It's like investing in Germany before WWII - eventually they are gonna come after us and we are gonna have to fight them - especially with their excess male population! Susan Hogarth wrote: Dweezil Dwarftosser wrote: Nope. From everything I've seen in the past few years, it was the idiot, strip-mining MBAs demanding more profits this quarter, pressuring buyers and store managers to replace the stuff on the shelves with something containing a higher profit margin. So they dropped the el cheapo model, the mid-range, and the high end - replacing them with only one offering: an inferior Chinese model bought for a song, but selling at 80% of the excellent-quality high-end version price. Since it is the only widget available, those who *need* a widget buy it. Could you name a few products that people *need* where only an inferior Chinese model is available? |
Susan Hogarth wrote: USENET READER wrote: C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: ... Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the reconditioned DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is garbage and usually dies after a short period of time. Grinders and drills come with extra electric motor brushes which almost always get lost by the time you need them - and you will. HF always tries to sell you an extended warranty program, and most people I know don't buy them - even though for all intents and purposes, if you buy the EW, you can bring back the tool and swap it for a new one anytime the older one doesn't work. So other than the time you lose always gong to HF to exchange tools, that does seem like a good deal. How can American companies compete with that? They can't as long as American consumers puy the cheapest product they can find. IMO, Harbor Freight should not even be in business, but as long as people keep buying the junk, they'll survive. It's a vicious cycle - people's wages don't keep up with inflation, so they either look for cheaper stuff or they have no other choice. ... Really? So then why have rates of ownership of items such as cars, TVs, other consumer electronics, major appliances, and (most likely) power tools gone *up*? It's not that people are forced to 'settle' for cheaper goods than they were buying before - it's that whole new classes of people are now empowered to *be* buyers for things such as dishwashers and jig saws. Those people are often going to buy their first lathe from Harbor Freight, just as they will buy their first DVD player from Wal-Mart. They buy the stuff on credit - which is too easy to get and then when you lose your job you can't pay the debt, so you used to be able to declare bankruptcy, but the banks bought off Bush so that it was harder to go bankrupt. ... If the government enforced it's immigration laws, fined or arrested employers for hiring illegals, shipped the illegals back over the border, and sealed the border up with higher walls that couldn't be cut through or climbed over. ... Were you going somewhere with this sentence? It seems to end abruptly. That the people who bought and paid for the GOP (mostly) and some token Democrats don't want to slow down the influx of cheap illegal immigrant labor, because it holds down the labor costs. The downside to that is increasing the flow of illegal drugs and potential for terrorist infintration over the boarder. ... My friends work hard, work smart, work careful, and do good quality work. They pay there self-employment FICA, state and federal taxes, they pay their insurance, and they buy good quality american-made tools when they can. They just keep getting underbid by companies that hire illegals. Maybe if their own government wasn't robbing them blind they could compete with free labor. Taxes are the cost of living in a free society. And they are getting robbed blind because the rich pukes are getting their taxes lowered to the point that they won't end up paying their fair share. ... The American consumer isn't always choosing the cheapest product - sometimes it's all the consumer can find. When a company like Lowe's can buy cheap chinese made crap for 10% of what they pay Marshalltown, and can sell it for half of what an American made product sells for, they will not want to have so much money tied up in inventory and they realize that they can make more money selling crap that falls apart and needs to be repurchased more often. God, what bellyaching! *Cheap* power tools now are better than the *expensive* power tools of a generation ago - and anyone can easily enough order power tools at whatever quality level he chooses to afford. And why would someone want to spend a bunch more for a tool like a drill that will last 10 years, when in five years the newer drills will probably be vastly improved and he'll want one of those anyway? How are the tools of today better than the tools of yesterday? It's not llke you need a computer controlled drill. You can't go into many stores and find good power tools, or even hand tools made in American anymore. And I don't want to have to order stuff - with identity theft I would rather go and pay cash for something thank risk my info going out over the net. I have a Sears Craftsman drill made in America over 25 years ago. I love it and I work with it all the time. I paid a lot of money for it when I bought it in college, and today's cheap drills cost the same but suck in terms of quality. They feel cheap and they overheat, sound like the motor is burning out, the blades and bits made overseas burn out or break quicker than ones made years ago. Today's wooden axe handles suck, today's picks bend if you strike them the wrong way against the rocks you are trying to break, today's mason's hoes break when you mix too stiff a batch of mortan, etc. Today's cheap tools are not better than Besides - I rather like buying something in person and making sure it works before I take it home - whether with a car, a drill, a computer, etc. |
Rodney Rash wrote:
USENET READER wrote: Rodney Rash wrote: USENET READER wrote: I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that few power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the Craftsman brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in Taiwan (a democracy I have no problem doing business with) and Red China (perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country where the factories are owned by the state and staffed with slave labor). Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the reconditioned DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is garbage and usually dies after a short period of time. Grinders and drills come with extra electric motor brushes which almost always get lost by the time you need them - and you will. HF always tries to sell you an extended warranty program, and most people I know don't buy them - even though for all intents and purposes, if you buy the EW, you can bring back the tool and swap it for a new one anytime the older one doesn't work. So other than the time you lose always gong to HF to exchange tools, that does seem like a good deal. How can American companies compete with that? But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned something about the construction trades which made me wonder if any more tools are going to be made in the USA? One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and harder to find American made tools of his trade in the stores. The Chinese-made crap (his words) are cheaply made, don't hold up to continued professional work, rivets pop, everything rusts unless you soak it in oil (which is not good for the mortar or cement, mason's hoes break after one use, etc. The other guy runs a catering truck that runs around to construction sites. He says that, except for the licensed trades (electricians and who are mostly younger white guys), the plumber (who are mostly older white guys) and the bricklayers (who are mostly African American) - everybody else is Mexican and they almost only speak Spanish and need a bi-lingual supervisor on the job. This supervisor - who is not dressed out for work - usually stands around talking on his cell phone, looking at his steel and gold Rolex watch - is a white guy. Well - the real question is - are any of the largely illegal immigrant construction workers buying quality American-made tools, or are they spending as little money as possible on tools as they might either get them stolen from a job site, or because they might get deported at any time and don't want to have any more money invested in tools than absolutely necessary? Trade protectionist!!!! Why do you hate Amerika?? Damned liberal whacko!!!! I don't hate America. I love America. I just wonder why fascist assholes like you continue to support trade policies set by big corporations designed to rob American workers of hard won wage and hour and workplace health and safety laws that ultimately will lead to the destruction of the middle class. Ha!! I paid more in taxes than you earned all year. And do you know how I EARNED that money? Buying fareast stock. You have to be smart my friend. Smart. 5 years ago I was a factory slob. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Right - why are you on USENET when you should be out forclosing on widows and orphans? You bought fareast stock - know what that makes you? Here's a hint..... Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. When comes the revolution - which side of the gun barrel are you gonna be on? Chances are - when the masses come looking for you, your $7/hour rent a cop will desert his post and leave you to stew in your own juices. |
Oscar_Lives wrote:
"Rodney Rash" wrote in message news:3yEFd.4580$OF5.1806@attbi_s52... USENET READER wrote: Rodney Rash wrote: USENET READER wrote: I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that few power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the Craftsman brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in Taiwan (a democracy I have no problem doing business with) and Red China (perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country where the factories are owned by the state and staffed with slave labor). Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the reconditioned DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is garbage and usually dies after a short period of time. Grinders and drills come with extra electric motor brushes which almost always get lost by the time you need them - and you will. HF always tries to sell you an extended warranty program, and most people I know don't buy them - even though for all intents and purposes, if you buy the EW, you can bring back the tool and swap it for a new one anytime the older one doesn't work. So other than the time you lose always gong to HF to exchange tools, that does seem like a good deal. How can American companies compete with that? But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned something about the construction trades which made me wonder if any more tools are going to be made in the USA? One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and harder to find American made tools of his trade in the stores. The Chinese-made crap (his words) are cheaply made, don't hold up to continued professional work, rivets pop, everything rusts unless you soak it in oil (which is not good for the mortar or cement, mason's hoes break after one use, etc. The other guy runs a catering truck that runs around to construction sites. He says that, except for the licensed trades (electricians and who are mostly younger white guys), the plumber (who are mostly older white guys) and the bricklayers (who are mostly African American) - everybody else is Mexican and they almost only speak Spanish and need a bi-lingual supervisor on the job. This supervisor - who is not dressed out for work - usually stands around talking on his cell phone, looking at his steel and gold Rolex watch - is a white guy. Well - the real question is - are any of the largely illegal immigrant construction workers buying quality American-made tools, or are they spending as little money as possible on tools as they might either get them stolen from a job site, or because they might get deported at any time and don't want to have any more money invested in tools than absolutely necessary? Trade protectionist!!!! Why do you hate Amerika?? Damned liberal whacko!!!! I don't hate America. I love America. I just wonder why fascist assholes like you continue to support trade policies set by big corporations designed to rob American workers of hard won wage and hour and workplace health and safety laws that ultimately will lead to the destruction of the middle class. You don't love America. I'll bet you are on public assistance or are a fag with an agenda against everything that this country was founded upon and you are mad at God for making you queer. Actualy I love America. But it is interesting how you ****ing fascist assholes proclaim your love for America yet you hate everyone who disagrees with you who has the balls to use their First Ammendment rights of free speech. And as far as being a fag - socioogists have found that white men who are very homophobic (like you) tend to have the greatest tendencies towards latent homosexuality. In other words, you tend to hate most the people you secretly want to emulate. Aren't you glad the US Supreme Court decriminalized consensual sodomy? |
JA wrote: "Rodney Rash" wrote Ha!! I paid more in taxes than you earned all year. And do you know how I EARNED that money? Buying fareast stock. You have to be smart my friend. Smart. 5 years ago I was a factory slob. Not smart enough to hire an accountant. Go figure. yep - he sounded like a Dittohead to me too! |
USENET READER wrote:
C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: C G wrote: USENET READER wrote: I am starting a DYI home-improvement project and I notice that few power or hand tools are made in the USA. Even most of the Craftsman brand tools are made in the USA. Some are made in Taiwan (a democracy I have no problem doing business with) and Red China (perhaps I should call them Fascist China, a country where the factories are owned by the state and staffed with slave labor). Are you stuck in the '80s? Most Chinese companies have been privatized. And who owns these private companies? Mostly it is well-connected members of the ChiCom party - so for all intents and purposes, it is still owned by those who run the government. Still stuck in the '80s. The ownership has been changing for quite a while now, but I would not have expected you to be informed enough to know this. No actually - your head is up your ass. Can you tell me who owns the private companies if not the party elite? They just privatized these factories and now they split the profits not with the workers, but with their American investors. So you tell me how while it has changed in shape, the end result isn't really different? Seems it's your head up your own ass. China's got a thriving stock market and ownership is shifting to individuals. I wouldn't have expected you to know this, it bursts your bubble of ignorance. Almost everything in Harbor Freight (except for the reconditioned DeWalt tools) is from China. The stuff is garbage and usually dies after a short period of time. Grinders and drills come with extra electric motor brushes which almost always get lost by the time you need them - and you will. HF always tries to sell you an extended warranty program, and most people I know don't buy them - even though for all intents and purposes, if you buy the EW, you can bring back the tool and swap it for a new one anytime the older one doesn't work. So other than the time you lose always gong to HF to exchange tools, that does seem like a good deal. How can American companies compete with that? They can't as long as American consumers puy the cheapest product they can find. IMO, Harbor Freight should not even be in business, but as long as people keep buying the junk, they'll survive. It's a vicious cycle - people's wages don't keep up with inflation, so they either look for cheaper stuff or they have no other choice. And when a store finds it is stocked with goods no one can afford to buy, they go with cheaper stuff to stay in business. It's everyone's fault, but mostly with big business for going overseas in the first place. The problem didn't start with wages, it started with American consumers wanting the cheapest possible price, with little regard for quality. Look at shop tools. When companies like Grizzly came on the scene, people endorsed their products because they were a few bucks cheaper than someone like Delta. Part of American workers wanting cheaper goods is them not getting paid enough to afford higher quality goods. Remember that fascist Henry Ford? Instead of lowering wages, he gave his workers more, realizing that if he paid them more they could afford to buy the cars he was making. Today a Wal Mart worker - if they pay rent, make care payments on a cheap car, pay for their own medica insurance, etc - they can't afford to shop in Wal Mart to buy all their family's needs. They can do that if they go on the dole - food stamps (which some of them qualify for even if they work fulll time) and if they put off regular health care and use the emergency room for chronic health care needs. I'm not arguing against many not getting paid enough. However, for many, it's just wanting (not necessarily needing) as much stuff as possible. Even people who could afford better often choose cheap import over better quality. And when you are trying to compete with some other contractor who hires Mexican illegals, you gotta try and cut your costs as much as you can. Yes, you do. WHy not get the government to come and haul the illegals away and bust the contractor breaking the law? Thay way he won't be competing illegally with you. A conttractor who is breaking the law like that is the equivalent of someone who cuts costs by stealing stuff to sell, or buying stolen property.. Should you compete with someone who steals or buys stolen goods by doing the same thing? Or shouldn't you insist that other employers not have an unfair advantage by obeying the laws? No argument from me. If the government enforced it's immigration laws, fined or arrested employers for hiring illegals, shipped the illegals back over the border, and sealed the border up with higher walls that couldn't be cut through or climbed over. No disagreement here. For the past 4 years I've been working to help someone from another country come here legally. It ****es me off that the government makes all kinds of exceptions for illegals, and that so many people look the other way so they can take advantage of the cheap labor that illegals represent. But I was talking to two buddies of mine and then mentioned something about the construction trades which made me wonder if any more tools are going to be made in the USA? There are some, but do you and your friends try to find them? Are you willing to pay a higher price to buy them? Actually - yes I am - but it is a lot of work trying to find American made tools. One guy works as a stone mason and he is finding it harder and harder to find American made tools of his trade in the stores. The Chinese-made crap (his words) are cheaply made, don't hold up to continued professional work, rivets pop, everything rusts unless you soak it in oil (which is not good for the mortar or cement, mason's hoes break after one use, etc. That's what happens when you buy the lowest cost tool. If that's all the stores sell, you either buy it or you don't work. It's all the stores sell because years ago people voted, with their money, for cheap imports. It also happened because in many cases, the American products were overpriced junk. Why was the American stuff overpriced junk - was it the rank and file worker who decided to come to work and make crap regardless of what the bosses told them to make, or was it management who had them build the crap because there wasn't anything else available? Some of it was the workers, some was the management. Sure - when the Japanese made better stuff for the same money, you bought the better stuff. You didn't want to throw your money away - you got more value for your money. Then when American goods caught up in quality, the Japanese moved there factories to Thailand or other cheaper countries, and then eventually Amerfcan companies couldn't compete on the price of the goods and also on the return on investments. So don't go blaming the consumers only - greedy investors who want 40% return on investments are to blame too! I didn't blame consumers only, but I think they are more to blame than business and investors. You seem to be trying to blame investors and business only. The other guy runs a catering truck that runs around to construction sites. He says that, except for the licensed trades (electricians and who are mostly younger white guys), the plumber (who are mostly older white guys) and the bricklayers (who are mostly African American) - everybody else is Mexican and they almost only speak Spanish and need a bi-lingual supervisor on the job. This supervisor - who is not dressed out for work - usually stands around talking on his cell phone, looking at his steel and gold Rolex watch - is a white guy. That's different than the crews I've seen. And the Mexican laborers I've seen are usually working their asses off. Can't say the same about some of the "American" crews I've seen. They work their asses off - not neccesarilly getting anything done, or working smarter either. Can't tell you how many cut phone and cable lines, water pipes and ther stuff that gets done by this hard workers. That is most likely the fault of the contractor, for failing to have the said line marked, than the workers. You ever try to call those guys to come out and mark the lines? I had to call three or four times and had to wait weeks when I wanted them marked. So if you are a contractor and you have to wait for weeks to start a project - you work without. I guess they don't like you. I've always had good response from them. And if you're a contractor, don't wait till the last minute before calling them. If it takes weeks to get them to come out then call weeks ahead. A good contractor understands these things and schedules appropriately. On the other hand, the American crews I have seen usually know where the lines will be buried and can dig around them carefully and not break the lines - it takes longer and you have to work smarter and more carefully, and few of the illegal crews can do that - or want to. They just don't give a crap if the family in the nice big house has cable or not. It's probably not the crew that's insisting that the job be done sloppy, it's most likely the American supervisor. I've found that the crews will work in the manner that makes their boss happy. If they're told to be careful, they will. However, the bosses who hire illegals are most likely looking for fast, not careful. Also - they seem to die or get injured in the workplace either because the bosses don't want them to work with safety equipment or use safe workplace practices (because it costs too much) or because they didn't work that way back in Mexico. My friends work hard, work smart, work careful, and do good quality work. They pay there self-employment FICA, state and federal taxes, they pay their insurance, and they buy good quality american-made tools when they can. They just keep getting underbid by companies that hire illegals. Yup, and unless we all do something about it, the problem will continue. Well - the real question is - are any of the largely illegal immigrant construction workers buying quality American-made tools, or are they spending as little money as possible on tools as they might either get them stolen from a job site, or because they might get deported at any time and don't want to have any more money invested in tools than absolutely necessary? They probably represent a small total of the tool buyers. Don't try turn this into someone else's fault. The American consumer is choosing the cheapest product, which is not going to be made in the US. The American consumer isn't always choosing the cheapest product - sometimes it's all the consumer can find. When a company like Lowe's can buy cheap chinese made crap for 10% of what they pay Marshalltown, and can sell it for half of what an American made product sells for, they will not want to have so much money tied up in inventory and they realize that they can make more money selling crap that falls apart and needs to be repurchased more often. I'd say most American consumers shop by price, with quality factored in to some extent, rather than by country of origin. Most Americans can't afford to do otherwise these days. But then again - some middle class peope will go buy food at Wal Mart and not at a regular grocery store even though by doing so, they are cutting off their noses to spite their faces - Wal Mart won't carry all the variety of foods that you get in a regular grocery store. Neither will Sams Club, BJs, Costco, etc. |
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 01:38:15 GMT, USENET READER
wrote: Tom Disque wrote: On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:44:57 -0800, Timothy wrote: On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:08:20 +0000, USENET READER wrote: No - my family immigrated to this country legally - half through Ellis Island and the other half through other legal ports. And actually - I know a shitload more about politics in general and this issue in particular than you probably do. So you can take your advice to watch and learn and stick it! Of course I blame the contractors who hire the illegals. I also blame all the other managers and owners of other business who hire illegals for less money than they pay citizens and legal immigrants. And I blame the politicans who get bribed to look the other way when they take money from these businesses and also from right-wing foundations to study market-based solutions to public policy issues. Who really give a crap on how your family got here? Legal...illegal, they still came here... and why did they do that? Looking for a better life than what the could find in the hole they crawled out of I'm sure. That's all these "illegal" immigrants are trying to do. My great-great grandfather claimed to be a Frenchman in order to emigrate to the US in the mid-1800s, because the quota for Germans was already filled. Am I going to be deported to Germany? Let's hope they make you go back! Actually, depending on where he was from (I am thinking Alsace-Lorraine) he could have been French or German at one time or the other. Did he speak both languages? I don't know. The few remaining scraps from his diary are written in German. There is a Chateau D'Isque in Alsace-Lorraine, however. It seems they got chased out of France into Germany in the 1200s by the peasants. I dunno if there is any connection between them and my great-great grandfather. |
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