On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 21:29:11 GMT, geezer wrote:


I cut my lawn this PM. Before I started, the voltage across the
battery poles read some 10V.

When I finished it was the same. I disconnected the one battery lead
and did as discussed earlier and surprisingly discovered that my drain
is now 7V! No wonder the battery goes dead on me.

I have left the battery disconnected.

G


Haven't gone out of town yet. I checked the disconnected battery
today 24 hours after yesterday. Now the drain is 4V! Why would it
vary (just sitting there)? The battery is still 10V potential of
course.

G

"Haven't gone out of town yet. I checked the disconnected battery
today 24 hours after yesterday. Now the drain is 4V! Why would it
vary (just sitting there)? The battery is still 10V potential of
course"

What you should be measuring is the amps that are being drawn by
inserting an amp meter in series with the battery. Inserting a
voltmeter like you are doing won't tell you what the actual drain is,
only that there is one. And the drain is likely varying because a
short somewhere isn't going to be perfect. It can vary from a few
microamps to 100amps depending on what's going on, like humididty,
temp, if the short is rubbing against something, etc. One thing for
sure, if it reaches the 100 amp point, you'll likely find it real
quick. BTW, I wouldn't leave the mower in my garage with a likely
short and the battery connected.

wrote in message
oups.com...
"Haven't gone out of town yet. I checked the disconnected battery
today 24 hours after yesterday. Now the drain is 4V! Why would it
vary (just sitting there)? The battery is still 10V potential of
course"

What you should be measuring is the amps that are being drawn by
inserting an amp meter in series with the battery. Inserting a
voltmeter like you are doing won't tell you what the actual drain is,
only that there is one.

You are correct, however, how many amps flowing through the short won't help
much. While it might give an experienced electrition a clue as to what's
faulty, few tinkerers who post questions in a newsgroup such as this will
likely even have an amp or multimeter, much less one that can read over 10
amps without blowing a fuse or worse. The fact that there's still voltage
across a supposedly open circuit is enough to know that there's a short, and
to trace the problem.

And the drain is likely varying because a
short somewhere isn't going to be perfect. It can vary from a few
microamps to 100amps depending on what's going on, like humididty,
temp, if the short is rubbing against something, etc. One thing for
sure, if it reaches the 100 amp point, you'll likely find it real
quick. BTW, I wouldn't leave the mower in my garage with a likely
short and the battery connected.

I'm feeling a little stupid for not suggesting that. Good call.

Pagan

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 14:42:23 -0700, "Pagan"
wrote:
BTW, I wouldn't leave the mower in my garage with a likely
short and the battery connected.



It is parked in a stand-alone shed with battery disconnected. Except
for the fact that the shed is close to the house, it should be
somewhat fire-safe in so far as being a fire hazard.to the house.

G

On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:25:06 -0700, "Pagan"
wrote:


That's strange. With the ignition disconnected, you certainly should be
getting zero volts. Sounds like there's a short either in the main cables
or in your starter.

I don't know the specific setup with your mower, but with automotive
engines, the positive leads of the battery are connected to both the starter
and the ignition. The starter has a big, beefy wire going to it, while the
ignition has the scrawny one. When you start your car, the ignition switch
sends current to the solenoid on the starter, which allows current to go
through the beefy wire directly into the motor.

If your mower does the same, there could be a problem with your starter
and/or solenoid. On a real old motor, there could be years of dirt, dust,
grass, goop and crud jiggling around in there, which may explain the
different readings.

Really the only way to know for sure is to follow the battery cables through
the mower, disconnecting wires and gadgets until you find what's sucking the
life out of your battery. Instead of jumping to a likely culprit, it's best
to follow the cables, starting from the disconnected battery terminal and
moving towards (electrically speaking) the terminal connected to the
battery.

Keep in mind that while it's rare to have more than one short in a case like
this, it's not impossible. If you come across any significant voltage
drops, but still haven't reached zero, you might as well keep going, since
your already in there.

If you can't seem to find the problem, ask a friend or a shop to look into
it. I've found that I'll sometimes miss a problem, especially when it's
sitting right there in front of my face, while I'm off looking for
relatively exotic things. Then I get mad at myself, call myself names, hurt
my feelings, and quit talking to myself until I'm forgiven, which takes
forever, since it feels sometimes I can read my mind.

If the warranty on the battery is still good, you might want to try getting
it replaced. I'm pretty sure it's a goner. An overnight charging,
especially with your brutish charger, should easily yield a good 12 volts.
Most likely one of the cells in the battery got a kick of reversed charge
when your battery was close to drained, ruining that cell. The fact that
it's over 10 volts means the remaining 5 cells are well overcharged. A good
trickle charger is looking even better right now. You'd get the same
results with an overnight charge, without the overcharging.

Pagan


Hi Pagan -

I finally am getting back to my problem what with the 4th and all.
I cut my grass this morning, so that I now have a week to explore my
problem before I need to cut again. Hopefully.

I have exposed the starter and the solenoid. Also most of the wiring.
I'll leave it thataway until I give up or find the problem. I might
look strange cutting the grass with the innards exposed, but so be it.
It will give the neighbors something to talk about.

There are two heavy red wires, one going from the battery + to the
solenoid and one from the solenoid to the starter. The wires look
fine - I don't see any wear.

The galling thing is - now when I place my meter between the battery +
and the red wire normally connected there and is now removed (and
which gave me voltage readings before that I interpreted as the amount
of the short), the meter reads 0V no matter what I do to jiggle things
etc, The implication is that right now I DO NOT have a short. This
is somewhat born out by the fact that the battery is now fully charged
(from cutting the grass this morning) to 12V whereas before the most I
ever got was about 10V. I remember saying I thought this meant I had
a dead cell,

The mower now sits completely connected up (sans the outside shell),
I intend to see if the battery stays at 12V,

Do you have any other suggestions as to what I might measure with my
meter as a further check?

Ain't this fun?

Thanks

Geezer - The old man aka the Bearded Wonder

"geezer" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:25:06 -0700, "Pagan"
wrote:


That's strange. With the ignition disconnected, you certainly should be
getting zero volts. Sounds like there's a short either in the main cables
or in your starter.

I don't know the specific setup with your mower, but with automotive
engines, the positive leads of the battery are connected to both the
starter
and the ignition. The starter has a big, beefy wire going to it, while
the
ignition has the scrawny one. When you start your car, the ignition
switch
sends current to the solenoid on the starter, which allows current to go
through the beefy wire directly into the motor.

If your mower does the same, there could be a problem with your starter
and/or solenoid. On a real old motor, there could be years of dirt, dust,
grass, goop and crud jiggling around in there, which may explain the
different readings.

Really the only way to know for sure is to follow the battery cables
through
the mower, disconnecting wires and gadgets until you find what's sucking
the
life out of your battery. Instead of jumping to a likely culprit, it's
best
to follow the cables, starting from the disconnected battery terminal and
moving towards (electrically speaking) the terminal connected to the
battery.

Keep in mind that while it's rare to have more than one short in a case
like
this, it's not impossible. If you come across any significant voltage
drops, but still haven't reached zero, you might as well keep going, since
your already in there.

If you can't seem to find the problem, ask a friend or a shop to look into
it. I've found that I'll sometimes miss a problem, especially when it's
sitting right there in front of my face, while I'm off looking for
relatively exotic things. Then I get mad at myself, call myself names,
hurt
my feelings, and quit talking to myself until I'm forgiven, which takes
forever, since it feels sometimes I can read my mind.

If the warranty on the battery is still good, you might want to try
getting
it replaced. I'm pretty sure it's a goner. An overnight charging,
especially with your brutish charger, should easily yield a good 12 volts.
Most likely one of the cells in the battery got a kick of reversed charge
when your battery was close to drained, ruining that cell. The fact that
it's over 10 volts means the remaining 5 cells are well overcharged. A
good
trickle charger is looking even better right now. You'd get the same
results with an overnight charge, without the overcharging.

Pagan


Hi Pagan -

I finally am getting back to my problem what with the 4th and all.
I cut my grass this morning, so that I now have a week to explore my
problem before I need to cut again. Hopefully.

I have exposed the starter and the solenoid. Also most of the wiring.
I'll leave it thataway until I give up or find the problem. I might
look strange cutting the grass with the innards exposed, but so be it.
It will give the neighbors something to talk about.

There are two heavy red wires, one going from the battery + to the
solenoid and one from the solenoid to the starter. The wires look
fine - I don't see any wear.

The galling thing is - now when I place my meter between the battery +
and the red wire normally connected there and is now removed (and
which gave me voltage readings before that I interpreted as the amount
of the short), the meter reads 0V no matter what I do to jiggle things
etc, The implication is that right now I DO NOT have a short. This
is somewhat born out by the fact that the battery is now fully charged
(from cutting the grass this morning) to 12V whereas before the most I
ever got was about 10V. I remember saying I thought this meant I had
a dead cell,

The mower now sits completely connected up (sans the outside shell),
I intend to see if the battery stays at 12V,

Do you have any other suggestions as to what I might measure with my
meter as a further check?

Ain't this fun?

Thanks

Geezer - The old man aka the Bearded Wonder

Intermittents are the toughest problems to diagnose and correct. If your
battery holds its charge while in the current configuration ( shell parts
removed ) and the drain returns when you replace them, it implies one of
those now removed parts, when in place, is completing the high resistance
short that drains your battery.

I'd suggest you carefully examine those parts as you replace them to see if
they fit without touching anything in the electrical system (monitor the
path that is now correctly reading 0 volts drop while replacing the parts.
If it suddenly changes from 0 volts as you reinstall the shell parts, the
one you touched last when it changes is causing your problem. There may even
be evidence of the intermittent connection path on the inside of one of
those parts. Look closely.

joe

On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 11:45:04 -0500, "JoeT" noway@today wrote:


Intermittents are the toughest problems to diagnose and correct. If your
battery holds its charge while in the current configuration ( shell parts
removed ) and the drain returns when you replace them, it implies one of
those now removed parts, when in place, is completing the high resistance
short that drains your battery.

I'd suggest you carefully examine those parts as you replace them to see if
they fit without touching anything in the electrical system (monitor the
path that is now correctly reading 0 volts drop while replacing the parts.
If it suddenly changes from 0 volts as you reinstall the shell parts, the
one you touched last when it changes is causing your problem. There may even
be evidence of the intermittent connection path on the inside of one of
those parts. Look closely.

joe


Hi again -

This is where I stand -

I have everything connected except the heavy wire connection to the
starter. The battery is connected as is the solenoid. So far there
is no discharge to the battery. Makes me think the problem is the
starter.

What would you do? Buy a new starter? Live with it?

Thanks.

G

On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 22:13:26 GMT, geezer wrote:


Hi again -

This is where I stand -

I have everything connected except the heavy wire connection to the
starter. The battery is connected as is the solenoid. So far there
is no discharge to the battery. Makes me think the problem is the
starter.

What would you do? Buy a new starter? Live with it?

Thanks.

G


Cancel that! Now the battery is slightly discharged. Now I think it
must be the solenoid. Wonder what that costs?

G

"geezer" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 22:13:26 GMT, geezer wrote:


Hi again -

This is where I stand -

I have everything connected except the heavy wire connection to the
starter. The battery is connected as is the solenoid. So far there
is no discharge to the battery. Makes me think the problem is the
starter.

What would you do? Buy a new starter? Live with it?

Thanks.

G


Cancel that! Now the battery is slightly discharged. Now I think it
must be the solenoid. Wonder what that costs?

G


Yeah, keep replacing parts and throwing money at it. I'm sure you will find
the problem someday!

It sounds like you are in way over your head. You need to get a qualified
professional to diagnose and repair it.