Ray, I swear nothing has changed, not even the slightest thing. We did have
some cool nights, and the humidity was high. So, there you go. Believe it or
not, this has moved so fast that between the time I wrote the original post
until now, I can see more damage. It's clearer now than it was then. This is
not insects, though when we hit it with the soap and oil combo that's what
it looked like. It's either fungal or bacterial, most likely the latter. The
black spots are indeed the secondary problem, though. The major issue is the
yellowing from the outside of the leaves.

I have work to do in the morning, boys and girls. I have Physan on hand, so
that's what I'll use. And we'll do wound control to the best of our ability.

Sorry you had to agree with Gene again, Ray! G Don't sell me any plants
until I get this resolved.

Diana


"Ray B" wrote in message
news:1f3dh.927$R_1.327@trndny08...
Damn! Two days in a row I have to agree with Gene.

The dark wounds on the leaves are the lesser indicators, in my mind, and
the problem solver makes me want to ask what - no matter how seemingly
insignificant - has changed?

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies. Books, Artwork, and lots of Free Info!


"Gene Schurg" wrote in message
news:c31dh.906$oC.30@trnddc04...
Diana,

Since it's sudden and hitting multiple plants I would guess this is
something in the culture. The black spots look to me a bacterial
infection.
The sudden yellow leaves would make me suspect something chemical.

Has there been any over spray from near by? Did someone spray the
azaleas
and the wind pick up the spray and it got on the orchids?

I think I remember you are in Florida? Was there a real quick change in
temps that could have caused a bacteria to florish? Some of the
pictures
look to me like the plant got chilled and as a result the leaves are just
not turgid.

I had a Phal schilleriana "Pink Butterfly" that was hanging and growing
like
a weed. A month ago I walked into the greenhouse and the newest leaf was
on
the ground. The crown rotted in a matter of days. I know water wasn't
collecting in the crown because the plant was mounted so everything
drains
out. The crown was all mushy.

I wish I could be of more help to you.

Gene






"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message
...
I just posted the following to rgo. It is *not* cross posted. I hope
someone
can ID this mess. Will post the pictures in succession in this thread.

Well, we have a little problem here. Walked out on the patio on Friday
morning and saw severe damage to a number of Phals. Mind you, seeing
them
every day is unavoidable, so I can assure you that these probs were not
evident the day before. Clearly, something had been in the works, but I
hadn't noticed.

The leaves are turning yellow starting at the outer edges. The under
sides
of the leaves look moldy and pitted. Some of them have what look like
sunken
areas on the top of the leaves, but those are not soft. There is no sign
of
snails/slugs, and those things would be unlikely to find them where they
live. There is no big web infestation, so I don't think it's spider
mites.
My guess is some kind of mites, however. Saturday we sprayed everything
(*everything*!) with soap and oil with some alcohol thrown in for good
measure - 6 tb/gallon.

Pictures going up in abpo in 1 minute. I'm really worried. Here I teach
a
class for newbies, and look what I've got.

Diana

Hi Diana,

I do not know what is going on. I, like Rob, Gene, and Ray, wonder if it is
not some culture issue. Hard, dry and very fast moving is not your normal
creeping crud. I do not think it is the Steve infliction, it is moving too
fast. I checked the weather for you for the past month, it sounds like it
has been lovely and not a single night would have cause this. The sun is at
a very low angle now. I would carefully check to make sure shading is still
right. Has anyone been using roundup or grass weed & feed?

Do you have a bush snail problem? I have seen bacteria/fungus problems show
up very quickly moving into plants via open bush snail wounds.

If these were my plants here is what I would be doing:

First Day,

First, depot one or two and make sure the roots are ok. Since one of the
plants was mounted, I know this is not a problem. But one of the first
things I always do is check roots.

Second, I would flush everything. A real good flushing of two or three
passes.

Third, I would spray with a systemic fungicide cocktail. There are a couple
I use, Spectro (Cleary's 3336 and Daconil) is very good and the components
should be available in consumer sizes. This spraying will be absorbed into
the plant and remain effective for about a month.

Fourth, I would put out something if bush snails might be an issue.

In a couple of days, I would spray down the plants. After the leaves are
dry, I would start a weekly spraying of Phyton 27. The first couple of
times I would use it at the higher recommended level and after that move
down to the lower recommended level. Phyton 27 is also sold in consumer
size.

After the flush, the next time the plants needed water, I would do it with a
weak fertilizer solution. The time after that I would use a trace mix.
Trace mixes can be found at the local garden center as an Iron supplement.
Read the labels, many of the iron supplements are really formulated to
address all trace problems.

Lastly, I would isolate. Put everything with any signs of the problem in
one area. The bad leaves are not going to get better and dieing tissue is
going to continue to die. But over a short period of time we would like to
see problem areas quit growing with no new ones showing up. Plants in the
healthy area should stay healthy. If healthy plants continue to get sick,
we have not addressed the problem and it is time to move to plan B.

Pat

just a small side question for Pat:
I thought Daconil (Chlorothalonil) was a contact chemcial, not a systemic.
It is a curative agent, but may not act to prevent infection. I had just
looked through my grower catalogs to answer this very question for a
customer, so it was fresh in my mind. The grower catalogs can be wrong...
I was just wondering if this were the case.

In contrast, the Cleary's 3336 is listed as a systemic that has both
curative and preventative action.

According to one of my charts, between these two chemicals, you catch every
listed fungus your orchids are likely to encounter except a Pythium
infection. Add the Phyton (Preventative, curative contact) and you still
miss Pythiums

At least one Pyhtium species (P. ultimum?) causes what we commonly call
"Black Rot" in orchid plants. Turban, Subdue, and Aliette are listed for
Pythiums. (Of course a lot of fungus and bacterial organisms can be behind
what we call "Black rot" and frequently one organism opens the door to
others and probably several are ultimately involved in any large scale
infection as the tissue starts to die.)

Phyton is a copper based chemical. (Copper sulphate? in some kind of
polymer carrier) It is really helpful for bacterial problems. However,
make sure you know how the other chemical and fertilizers you may be
spraying on your plants will interact with it. Most labels tell you if you
need to take extra precautions with copper the based products in your
arsenal.

For gene's suggestion, you might verify if the pool installation has put
anything caustic in the environment by checking other plants in the area
(besides your orchids) for similar damage patterns.

If you want to rule out mites for some of that tip damage, get a magnifying
glass and look for them. Mites can open wounds that serve as entry points
for fungal and bacterial infection just like all the other beasties that
feed on leaves. Even with a magnifying glass some species of mite instars
and eggs look like tiny semi-opaque dots that are sunken into the pits of
plant tissue; not like insects at all, especially if you have already killed
off the larger easier to spray population. Phals tips and leaf margins are
places where you often find newly planted mite colonies.

"Pat Brennan" wrote in message
...
Hi Diana,

I do not know what is going on. I, like Rob, Gene, and Ray, wonder if it
is not some culture issue. Hard, dry and very fast moving is not your
normal creeping crud. I do not think it is the Steve infliction, it is
moving too fast. I checked the weather for you for the past month, it
sounds like it has been lovely and not a single night would have cause
this. The sun is at a very low angle now. I would carefully check to
make sure shading is still right. Has anyone been using roundup or grass
weed & feed?

Do you have a bush snail problem? I have seen bacteria/fungus problems
show up very quickly moving into plants via open bush snail wounds.

If these were my plants here is what I would be doing:

First Day,

First, depot one or two and make sure the roots are ok. Since one of the
plants was mounted, I know this is not a problem. But one of the first
things I always do is check roots.

Second, I would flush everything. A real good flushing of two or three
passes.

Third, I would spray with a systemic fungicide cocktail. There are a
couple I use, Spectro (Cleary's 3336 and Daconil) is very good and the
components should be available in consumer sizes. This spraying will be
absorbed into the plant and remain effective for about a month.

Fourth, I would put out something if bush snails might be an issue.

In a couple of days, I would spray down the plants. After the leaves are
dry, I would start a weekly spraying of Phyton 27. The first couple of
times I would use it at the higher recommended level and after that move
down to the lower recommended level. Phyton 27 is also sold in consumer
size.

After the flush, the next time the plants needed water, I would do it with
a weak fertilizer solution. The time after that I would use a trace mix.
Trace mixes can be found at the local garden center as an Iron supplement.
Read the labels, many of the iron supplements are really formulated to
address all trace problems.

Lastly, I would isolate. Put everything with any signs of the problem in
one area. The bad leaves are not going to get better and dieing tissue is
going to continue to die. But over a short period of time we would like
to see problem areas quit growing with no new ones showing up. Plants in
the healthy area should stay healthy. If healthy plants continue to get
sick, we have not addressed the problem and it is time to move to plan B.

Pat

Al, I expect you are right about Daconil not being a systemic. Exotherm
never really acted as one. Spectro is labeled as a systemic but I expect
that is just because of the Cleary's.

When I expect Pythium or Fusarium, I use another cocktail, a modified
Griesbach's blitz; Cleary's, Subdue, Truban and Physan. Subdue is not
available in consumer sizes. I expect I would recommend Banrot (another
cocktail containing Truban) to Diana if plan B was required.

Phyton 27 is a systemic. Go figure. It's label makes it sound like it does
not have any of the copper interaction problems you would expect and I have
never had any problems with it. But I remember the old interaction problems
of Kocide and treat Phyton with some care. That was why I recommended Diana
spray down the plants before using it. Of all chemicals, I think I have had
the best luck using Phyton to slow fast moving problems.

Pat

I love exothem. It makes a greenhouse smell for weeks like tires have been
burning.

BTW, I was not casting aspersions on your advice. I was trying to learn if
my grower catalog charts were wrong. And as usual, when I don't know an
answer, I was just spouting facts.

"Pat Brennan" wrote in message
...
Al, I expect you are right about Daconil not being a systemic. Exotherm
never really acted as one. Spectro is labeled as a systemic but I expect
that is just because of the Cleary's.

When I expect Pythium or Fusarium, I use another cocktail, a modified
Griesbach's blitz; Cleary's, Subdue, Truban and Physan. Subdue is not
available in consumer sizes. I expect I would recommend Banrot (another
cocktail containing Truban) to Diana if plan B was required.

Phyton 27 is a systemic. Go figure. It's label makes it sound like it
does not have any of the copper interaction problems you would expect and
I have never had any problems with it. But I remember the old interaction
problems of Kocide and treat Phyton with some care. That was why I
recommended Diana spray down the plants before using it. Of all
chemicals, I think I have had the best luck using Phyton to slow fast
moving problems.

Pat

PS. FWIW, it makes sense that Phyton would be a systemic; (copper sulphate
after all) but the grower catalog does list it as a contact so, yes, go
figure.

"Pat Brennan" wrote in message
...
Al, I expect you are right about Daconil not being a systemic. Exotherm
never really acted as one. Spectro is labeled as a systemic but I expect
that is just because of the Cleary's.

When I expect Pythium or Fusarium, I use another cocktail, a modified
Griesbach's blitz; Cleary's, Subdue, Truban and Physan. Subdue is not
available in consumer sizes. I expect I would recommend Banrot (another
cocktail containing Truban) to Diana if plan B was required.

Phyton 27 is a systemic. Go figure. It's label makes it sound like it
does not have any of the copper interaction problems you would expect and
I have never had any problems with it. But I remember the old interaction
problems of Kocide and treat Phyton with some care. That was why I
recommended Diana spray down the plants before using it. Of all
chemicals, I think I have had the best luck using Phyton to slow fast
moving problems.

Pat

Al, I thought it was mites to begin with, because of the pattern of damage.
I cannot see anything, even with a magnifying glass, but we did treat for
mites and will do it again. It could be a combination of factors.

Diana

"al" wrote in message news:rigdh.1997$g_3.1810@trndny02...
just a small side question for Pat:
I thought Daconil (Chlorothalonil) was a contact chemcial, not a systemic.
It is a curative agent, but may not act to prevent infection. I had just
looked through my grower catalogs to answer this very question for a
customer, so it was fresh in my mind. The grower catalogs can be wrong...
I was just wondering if this were the case.

In contrast, the Cleary's 3336 is listed as a systemic that has both
curative and preventative action.

According to one of my charts, between these two chemicals, you catch
every listed fungus your orchids are likely to encounter except a Pythium
infection. Add the Phyton (Preventative, curative contact) and you still
miss Pythiums

At least one Pyhtium species (P. ultimum?) causes what we commonly call
"Black Rot" in orchid plants. Turban, Subdue, and Aliette are listed for
Pythiums. (Of course a lot of fungus and bacterial organisms can be
behind what we call "Black rot" and frequently one organism opens the door
to others and probably several are ultimately involved in any large scale
infection as the tissue starts to die.)

Phyton is a copper based chemical. (Copper sulphate? in some kind of
polymer carrier) It is really helpful for bacterial problems. However,
make sure you know how the other chemical and fertilizers you may be
spraying on your plants will interact with it. Most labels tell you if
you need to take extra precautions with copper the based products in your
arsenal.

For gene's suggestion, you might verify if the pool installation has put
anything caustic in the environment by checking other plants in the area
(besides your orchids) for similar damage patterns.

If you want to rule out mites for some of that tip damage, get a
magnifying glass and look for them. Mites can open wounds that serve as
entry points for fungal and bacterial infection just like all the other
beasties that feed on leaves. Even with a magnifying glass some species
of mite instars and eggs look like tiny semi-opaque dots that are sunken
into the pits of plant tissue; not like insects at all, especially if you
have already killed off the larger easier to spray population. Phals tips
and leaf margins are places where you often find newly planted mite
colonies.

"Pat Brennan" wrote in message
...
Hi Diana,

I do not know what is going on. I, like Rob, Gene, and Ray, wonder if it
is not some culture issue. Hard, dry and very fast moving is not your
normal creeping crud. I do not think it is the Steve infliction, it is
moving too fast. I checked the weather for you for the past month, it
sounds like it has been lovely and not a single night would have cause
this. The sun is at a very low angle now. I would carefully check to
make sure shading is still right. Has anyone been using roundup or grass
weed & feed?

Do you have a bush snail problem? I have seen bacteria/fungus problems
show up very quickly moving into plants via open bush snail wounds.

If these were my plants here is what I would be doing:

First Day,

First, depot one or two and make sure the roots are ok. Since one of the
plants was mounted, I know this is not a problem. But one of the first
things I always do is check roots.

Second, I would flush everything. A real good flushing of two or three
passes.

Third, I would spray with a systemic fungicide cocktail. There are a
couple I use, Spectro (Cleary's 3336 and Daconil) is very good and the
components should be available in consumer sizes. This spraying will be
absorbed into the plant and remain effective for about a month.

Fourth, I would put out something if bush snails might be an issue.

In a couple of days, I would spray down the plants. After the leaves are
dry, I would start a weekly spraying of Phyton 27. The first couple of
times I would use it at the higher recommended level and after that move
down to the lower recommended level. Phyton 27 is also sold in consumer
size.

After the flush, the next time the plants needed water, I would do it
with a weak fertilizer solution. The time after that I would use a trace
mix. Trace mixes can be found at the local garden center as an Iron
supplement. Read the labels, many of the iron supplements are really
formulated to address all trace problems.

Lastly, I would isolate. Put everything with any signs of the problem in
one area. The bad leaves are not going to get better and dieing tissue
is going to continue to die. But over a short period of time we would
like to see problem areas quit growing with no new ones showing up.
Plants in the healthy area should stay healthy. If healthy plants
continue to get sick, we have not addressed the problem and it is time to
move to plan B.

Pat

Hi, Pat,

I would carefully check to make sure shading is still right. Has anyone
been using roundup or grass weed & feed?

Shading is good, and the plants have been living in their current locations
for a long time. No chemicals, and other plantings are fine. Even the
gardenias are okay, and they are usually the first harbingers of trouble.

Do you have a bush snail problem?

This area is clear of snails. Wish I could say the same for my Dend benches.
They are far removed from this area.

First, depot one or two and make sure the roots are ok.

Check. Root systems are gang busters. I flushed the plants heavily
yesterday.

Third, I would spray with a systemic fungicide cocktail. There are a
couple I use, Spectro (Cleary's 3336 and Daconil)

That stuff is in limited supply locally. I have ordered Cleary's, but it
will take a few days. Meanwhile, we sprayed with Physan today. It's what's
available, and we did the whole shebang. You mentioned Phyton 27. I can use
that on most, but not on Dends, as they lose leaves because of the copper.

Things are as isolated as I can make them. I am also going to treat again
for mites. Thanks so much for the comprehensive answer. I really appreciate
it.

Diana