Pat Brennan wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "K Barrett"
Newsgroups: rec.gardens.orchids
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2005 11:33 AM
Subject: illegal orchids or orchid smuggling.....



Well, you got the one 'ring' that was caught. Any others are still
underground.... such is the nature of crime, no?

K


-- the reporter gone? --

So I'm at a big orchid show and my storage area is next to a Taiwanese
grower's area. All of their plants have been imported for the show, coffin
box after coffin box stacked toward the ceiling. In English, in big black
marker the side of each box lists it contents, 100 of this 25 of that. When
I see the boxes containing flasks names as vietnamense and hangianum make up
the this and that. Through Taiwan CITES, through US customs, through US ag
inspection, half way around the world with nothing to hide. The plants at
the show did not surprise me, nothing new there. But written on the side of
the boxes -- underground? Like most shows, by the Sunday afternoon all of
the flasks have been sold -- such is the nature of this crime.

So last weekend I'm at a smaller AOS judged show. As is my normal routine,
after my exhibit is up I check the other exhibits before the ribbon shake
and break occurs. In another commercial growers exhibit is a spectacular
Paph labeled as Joyce Hasegawa. I am no Paph expert, but delenatii has
never made anything this nice. Clearly the plant is vietnamense X
hangianum. I confirm this with a Paph expert who says 'no doubt.' That
night or maybe the next day, the AOS judging fairies come and by the time I
return to the show it is ribbons ribbons everywhere. Joyce proudly sports a
best in class blue. I am not even sure where the crime is.

Now some good new, Phrag. kovachii. The first (at least that I know of)
batch of legal kovachii arrived in the US last summer. I know of another
legal batch, from another breeder, that has completed the Peru CITES
paperwork and will be in the US before Christmas. I do not think there will
be any problem with the legal status of plants from either of these batches
since the Peruvian government gave the plants to these growers in Peru. The
orchid world has followed the progress of these plants and the pods, it is
all documented. In addition, it is my understanding that the surviving
plants handed out by Peruvian government have been DNA fingerprinted. I was
surprised to see Peru allowed the flasks to leave the country, but it seems
they did. All and all, when we get past Mike and Selby's problems, CITES
seems to work well with kovachii. As legal plants become available the
demand for collected plants should all but go away. I expect kovachii
distribution to be very similar to what we saw with besseae. We are going
to start seeing kovachii seedlings for sale (if they are not already) in the
three figure range. Over the next couple of years the supply will continue
to increase and the price will drop. I hope to have one within 5 years and
I plan to pay less than $50 for it.


Pat



Your observation about the Joyce Hasegawa is why Harold Koopowitz gave
an address to the trustees in Sonoma. That judges have to start being
more observant. That plants like your Joyce Hasegawa reference will
start showing up at the judging table and judges should be aware that if
its too good to be true its probably made with illegal stock. I didn't
hear his comments. They were made to the Trustees committee. But I
believe they are repeated in this most recent Orchid Digest magazine.
(Or was it this most recent 'Orchids'? [scratches head])

I am floored that hagianum etc came throuogh in flasks. Maybe because
they *were* in flasks? Note: I don't believe CITES exempts App I flasks,
no matter what has been written, but sheesh, you've seen it for
yourself, Pat.... maybe its true.

So what's the deal then? The Taiwanese vendor imported hangianum
legally. In a few years these flask's plants will show up at the
judging table. We aren't supposed to judge them..... but by then who
knows? The AOS's ban may be lifted by that time. (Note to self: start
hanging arond with paph people now so I learn what these things look
like for when the ban is lifted....)

K Barrett

K Barrett spaketh thusly:

I am floored that hagianum etc came through in flasks. Maybe because
they *were* in flasks? Note: I don't believe CITES exempts App I flasks,
no matter what has been written, but sheesh, you've seen it for
yourself, Pat.... maybe its true

Orchids on Appendix I and II of CITES are specifically exempted
under CITES. It's there in the treaty, right there on www.cites.org if
you're so incined. The problem comes with plants whose parentage is under
question for legal purposes, an interpretation the US Office of Management
Authority shares with a small number of other countries.

As a result, Paph. vietnamense from Asia is "probably illegal,"
while containers from Europe may or may not be legitimate, according to my
conversations with the harried folks at Fish and Wildlife. Perhaps this
status has changed recently; it's difficult to keep up with this sort of
thing when the rules aren't exactly written down.

That Appendix I plants are specifically exempted under CITES has a
long background, including lobbying on the part of the American Orchid
Society way the heck back when (early 1970's, I think). Bob Wellenstein,
who once boasted in this newsgroup (if memory serves) that he propagates
more Appendix I species than maybe anyone else in the United States
refers to the exemption in his web pages:

http://www.ladyslipper.com/paphfaq.htm

"Flasks have been exempted from CITES documentation. However, it
is important to note that flasks derived from illegal plants are also
considered illegal. It is also important to note that the concept being
promoted by some of the plant smugglers that once a plant has entered the
country, even if illegally, is now legal to possess is incorrect."

This may become pertinent to the kovachii situation if the
ultimate source of the propagules is ever determined to be outside of
Peru, which seems possible.

The address in the header isn't valid. Send no email there.

-AJHicks
Chandler, AZ

So the question is if the plant was legal in the country of origin or
if it is legal in the US.

Can tissue be collected from wild orchids that are in their "natural"
habitat and be brought in? Or is that only under the expetion for
scientific & acidemic?

Jack

Sterile seed and tissue cultures are exempt. But you have to be skilled
to grow those into orchids. From
http://www.cites.org/eng/app/appendices.shtml :
"For all of the following Appendix-I species, seedling or tissue
cultures obtained in vitro, in solid or liquid media, transported in
sterile containers are not subject to the provisions of the Convention"

Appendix I are the rare ones--even those threatened with extinction.
Follow the link for a list of names. All phrag and phaphs are listed as
Appendix I.

Most people seem to run into trouble with plants of flowering size that
are or appear wild-collected. Also, many people don't read CITES and
don't know that many types of Orchids cannot be shipped internationally
at all.

At this point, the easiest orchids to ship internationally are hybrids
of the genera Cymbidium, Dendrobium, Phalaenopsis and Vanda. They've
become so common (i.e. grown in large numbers commercially) that these
can now be shipped without much hassle. In fact they are exempt from
CITES if the shipment meets specific requirements. (See footnote 8 on
the above page--very informative!)

-Munir

I think you misread that. Seed is not exempt.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info!


"Munir" wrote in message
oups.com...
Sterile seed and tissue cultures are exempt. But you have to be skilled
to grow those into orchids. From
http://www.cites.org/eng/app/appendices.shtml :
"For all of the following Appendix-I species, seedling or tissue
cultures obtained in vitro, in solid or liquid media, transported in
sterile containers are not subject to the provisions of the Convention"

Appendix I are the rare ones--even those threatened with extinction.
Follow the link for a list of names. All phrag and phaphs are listed as
Appendix I.

Most people seem to run into trouble with plants of flowering size that
are or appear wild-collected. Also, many people don't read CITES and
don't know that many types of Orchids cannot be shipped internationally
at all.

At this point, the easiest orchids to ship internationally are hybrids
of the genera Cymbidium, Dendrobium, Phalaenopsis and Vanda. They've
become so common (i.e. grown in large numbers commercially) that these
can now be shipped without much hassle. In fact they are exempt from
CITES if the shipment meets specific requirements. (See footnote 8 on
the above page--very informative!)

-Munir

If only it was this simple. It is not. Aaron explained the "fruit of the
poison tree" and I think this is the area that most people get in trouble
most often. It is a mess and reading CITES will not clear it up. At this
point I do not think there is any one out there that can tell you which
plants are legal in the US--you need to know about the plant's parents and
that information need not be on the label. What is legal in one country is
often illegal US (Aaron explained this as well). The import process do not
stop the flow. If the plant is legal in Taiwan, the exporter is able to get
a valid CITES export permit.

As K Barrett stated, AOS will not judge illegal plants and this is going to
be a mess as well. Take the Paph Joyce Hasegawa I saw last week. The
judges must decide if the plant is mislabeled, if they decide yes it is
easy. But if they decide the label is correct, the next question is if the
plant has been made with one of the newly collected delenatiis (darker and
better) or if it was made with a legal delenatii. Good luck.

Does any one know the answers to these?

When AOS judges in foreign countries are only plants legal in the US
considered?

Why are paphs such as hangianum still illegal? Has Vietnam refused to grant
export permits?

Are both China and Taiwan members of CITES?

Will newly found species legally make it out of China?

Pat





oups.com...
Sterile seed and tissue cultures are exempt. But you have to be skilled
to grow those into orchids. From
http://www.cites.org/eng/app/appendices.shtml :
"For all of the following Appendix-I species, seedling or tissue
cultures obtained in vitro, in solid or liquid media, transported in
sterile containers are not subject to the provisions of the Convention"

Appendix I are the rare ones--even those threatened with extinction.
Follow the link for a list of names. All phrag and phaphs are listed as
Appendix I.

Most people seem to run into trouble with plants of flowering size that
are or appear wild-collected. Also, many people don't read CITES and
don't know that many types of Orchids cannot be shipped internationally
at all.

At this point, the easiest orchids to ship internationally are hybrids
of the genera Cymbidium, Dendrobium, Phalaenopsis and Vanda. They've
become so common (i.e. grown in large numbers commercially) that these
can now be shipped without much hassle. In fact they are exempt from
CITES if the shipment meets specific requirements. (See footnote 8 on
the above page--very informative!)

-Munir

Pat Brennan wrote:
...................
.......................................
Does any one know the answers to these?

When AOS judges in foreign countries are only plants legal in the US
considered?
..........................

This should answer that one:

"This species received its first American Orchid Society award at the
Club Peruana de Orquideas show in Lima, Peru in October 2003:
Phragmipedium kovachii 'Mem. Grimanesa Manrique', CHM/AOS (94 points)."

Quoted from: http://autrevie.com/Articles/Phrag_kovachii.html

Steve

Thanks Steve, but I guess I worded the question wrong. Everyone considered
that kovachii and the others displayed that day to be a legal plants. What
I was asking about was plants that the US considers illegal but other
countries consider legal. For example, if a hangianum cross is displayed at
next years IPA in Taiwan, would AOS judges consider it?

Pat


"Steve" wrote in message
...
Pat Brennan wrote:
...................
.......................................
Does any one know the answers to these?

When AOS judges in foreign countries are only plants legal in the US
considered?
..........................

This should answer that one:

"This species received its first American Orchid Society award at the Club
Peruana de Orquideas show in Lima, Peru in October 2003: Phragmipedium
kovachii 'Mem. Grimanesa Manrique', CHM/AOS (94 points)."

Quoted from: http://autrevie.com/Articles/Phrag_kovachii.html

Steve

I notice that China is Party to CITES but I did not see Taiwan listed in the
member countries. Maybe I missed it. I expected it to be the other way
around. Of course China is under the impression that Taiwan and it are the
same.

http://www.cites.org/eng/disc/parties/alphabet.shtml

"Pat Brennan" wrote in message
...

Are both China and Taiwan members of CITES?

Will newly found species legally make it out of China?

Pat

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 13:29:33 -0500 in Al wrote:
I notice that China is Party to CITES but I did not see Taiwan listed in the
member countries. Maybe I missed it. I expected it to be the other way
around. Of course China is under the impression that Taiwan and it are the
same.

And the US maintains a one China policy.
I mean we wouldn't want companies like Lenovo and Sanmina to stop making toys for us, would we?



--
Chris Dukes
Suspicion breeds confidence -- Brazil

Munir,
As a general rule of thumb,
1. Buy from reputable growers within your country of origin.
2. Use nursery grown stock when making crosses or selfings.
3. Don't send plants out of the country of origin.
4. When buying at orchid fairs from foreign sources, be sure you are not
buying plants that are on the endangered list.
5. And, I don't think that even sterile, in-vitro containers of such
plants as Renanthera or Vanda coerula can come into the country although
I may be wrong.

.. . . Pam
Everything Orchid Management System
http://home.earthlink.net/~profpam/page3.html

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Munir wrote:
Sterile seed and tissue cultures are exempt. But you have to be skilled
to grow those into orchids. From
http://www.cites.org/eng/app/appendices.shtml :
"For all of the following Appendix-I species, seedling or tissue
cultures obtained in vitro, in solid or liquid media, transported in
sterile containers are not subject to the provisions of the Convention"

Appendix I are the rare ones--even those threatened with extinction.
Follow the link for a list of names. All phrag and phaphs are listed as
Appendix I.

Most people seem to run into trouble with plants of flowering size that
are or appear wild-collected. Also, many people don't read CITES and
don't know that many types of Orchids cannot be shipped internationally
at all.

At this point, the easiest orchids to ship internationally are hybrids
of the genera Cymbidium, Dendrobium, Phalaenopsis and Vanda. They've
become so common (i.e. grown in large numbers commercially) that these
can now be shipped without much hassle. In fact they are exempt from
CITES if the shipment meets specific requirements. (See footnote 8 on
the above page--very informative!)

-Munir

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 00:21:59 GMT in . net profpam wrote:
Munir,
5. And, I don't think that even sterile, in-vitro containers of such
plants as Renanthera or Vanda coerula can come into the country although
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I may be wrong.
pedant
may legally
/pedant
If tons of pot and crank and smack can make it across the border
despite an official war on drugs, I'm sure those can get across.
Of course the innocent and well meaning will be punished more than
the flagrant violators...

(It's been a "What can be done is not the same as what may legally
be done, and both are quite dissimilar to what should be done and what is
done" sort of morning)


--
Chris Dukes
Suspicion breeds confidence -- Brazil

Aaron Hicks wrote:
K Barrett spaketh thusly:


I am floored that hagianum etc came through in flasks. Maybe because
they *were* in flasks? Note: I don't believe CITES exempts App I flasks,
no matter what has been written, but sheesh, you've seen it for
yourself, Pat.... maybe its true


Orchids on Appendix I and II of CITES are specifically exempted
under CITES. It's there in the treaty, right there on www.cites.org if
you're so incined. The problem comes with plants whose parentage is under
question for legal purposes, an interpretation the US Office of Management
Authority shares with a small number of other countries.

As a result, Paph. vietnamense from Asia is "probably illegal,"
while containers from Europe may or may not be legitimate, according to my
conversations with the harried folks at Fish and Wildlife. Perhaps this
status has changed recently; it's difficult to keep up with this sort of
thing when the rules aren't exactly written down.

That Appendix I plants are specifically exempted under CITES has a
long background, including lobbying on the part of the American Orchid
Society way the heck back when (early 1970's, I think). Bob Wellenstein,
who once boasted in this newsgroup (if memory serves) that he propagates
more Appendix I species than maybe anyone else in the United States
refers to the exemption in his web pages:

http://www.ladyslipper.com/paphfaq.htm

"Flasks have been exempted from CITES documentation. However, it
is important to note that flasks derived from illegal plants are also
considered illegal. It is also important to note that the concept being
promoted by some of the plant smugglers that once a plant has entered the
country, even if illegally, is now legal to possess is incorrect."

This may become pertinent to the kovachii situation if the
ultimate source of the propagules is ever determined to be outside of
Peru, which seems possible.

The address in the header isn't valid. Send no email there.

-AJHicks
Chandler, AZ



This is when I stopped reading and talking about CITES. It just too
unwritten and dependant on whoever's interpretation. As I once said if I
had spent as much time on my 401(k) portfolio as I spent reading
CITES.org I'd be rich right now. (George Norris told me that was the
most intelligent thing I'd ever said.)

K Barrett