What are the issues?
 

K Barrett wrote:
Just saying let's all be friends doesn't raise the awareness of the issues
for the newbies, now does it?

It's a bummer. I read the thread "Is there money in orchids" and made
no comment. As I see it, here are some of the issues.

1. Utility costs have quadrupled in the last 2 years.
2. Taxes have doubled.
3. Water quality. Most areas the water is treated before application
to the orchids, some areas it is tested and treated again before being
allowed to be removed
4. Chemicals. Insecticides, fungicides, fertilizer, hormones, and
supplements
5. Lighting. Natural, supplemented, or artificially supplied. There
is the cost of the fixture, replacement bulbs, expense of operation,
type, spectrum, and meters to test all of the above.
6. Hardgoods. Pots, mounts, medium, clips, stakes, blades, hangers,
etc the list is endless and it all adds to the cost or price.
7 Space and equipment. I've allowed about 1 square foot for a mature
catlleya, I can go vertical, but have to protect against overspray and
drips.
8. Time. Inspection, watering, transplanting/dividing. That's just
time spent with the orchids. If I hire locally there is training.
9. Environment. I like miltonias, but have left them alone, have
mostly intermediate to warm growing, low altitude orchids.
10. Breeding. Eventually want to make my own cross, but then there is
time and uncertainty. However we all recognize the Krull-Smith,
Hauserman, Orchidview, Mendenhall/Oconee, Carmela, and Baldan to name a
few. Those are some of the "big guns", it doesn't mean there aren't
others trying it on their scale that haven't been recognized yet.
There is a bit of "Walter Mitty" in all of us.
11. Promotion, exhibition, control. I saw an online ad for a
"recently awarded" orchid for sale, $30,000. They weren't selling
divisions, they were selling rights to mass produce, before a leaf,
root, or stem got hijacked.
12. Marketability. Obscure species are interesting. Most sales
however aren't for orchids that you need to have magnification to see
or smell like road kill.

I know, I've left out a bunch of stuff. But it is a start. What are
some of the other issues?

Nancy

I know that some things have been left out of this lift.

What are the issues?
 

You've left out pressures from government subsidized foreign trade.
Companies in other countries can bring fully grown flowering sized plants to
US markets for pennies on the dollar. It used to be that these companies
would import flasks to the USA, and a second level of industry here would
raise these plants to flowering size and market them. Takes a lot of time,
supplies and man hours to pot and repot these seedlings to flowering size.
Now foriegn companies don't have to waste the time and trouble to own
businesses in the USA (putting US workers/suppliers out of work) they can
bring in already potted orchids for sale. The US has to deal with any
imported pests (which the foriegn countries say doesn't happen, but which I
believe remains to be seen. When did you ever see a pest free port?) US
companies can't compete because 1) they aren't subsidized, they actually
have to turn a profit and 2) they have to pay a living wage in the US.

At one point in time an rgo Florida vendor mentioned a company in Florida
was selling Phalaenopsis orchids with 2 spikesfor $6. Two spikes. 6 bucks.
Boy that's cheap! And they still make a profit on that $6.

So what's a vendor to do? Go out of business? Get real small? How small
can you get? Especially considering all your points listed below?

So what's a hobbyist to do if they want something other than a boxstore
orchid? Create their own hybrids, trade 'em with their friends? Drive for
miles to get to the few shows in their areas that sell something other than
boxstore orchids? (SBOE, Redlands, Chicago)

So where's a vendor or a hobbyists going to get their supplies to repot all
their orchids every other year? Shipping and handling on bark is costly!
Join a club and share the costs of a pallet of bark?

You mentioned water quality. There was a vendor down in the San Diego area
who went out of business because California enacted legislation that every
business had to control the purity of the runoff from their property. They
didn't want a bunch of phosphates etc clogging up the streams, rivers, bays
etc. So water from your fields have to be at a standard before it can be
released into streams. He couldn't do that, he was a small operation and to
comply was onerous, so decided to close down. I believe he only sells pots
now. I believe these laws were enacted to keep stores with their huge
parking lots from dumping oil soaked runoff into storm drains, but there you
are, an unforseen consequence.

Do you rememebr several years ago the Chinese shot down one of our spyplanes
and held the crew 'hostage' until they stripped any advanced electronics out
of the plane. Then they let the crew go. I remember a picture of one of
the airmen who stepped off the plane back in the USA wearing a T-shirt
captioned 'I was held hostage by a WalMart supplier'.

But I digress.

All we can agree upon is that its a mess.

K Barrett


"Nancy G." wrote in message
oups.com...
K Barrett wrote:
Just saying let's all be friends doesn't raise the awareness of the
issues
for the newbies, now does it?

It's a bummer. I read the thread "Is there money in orchids" and made
no comment. As I see it, here are some of the issues.

1. Utility costs have quadrupled in the last 2 years.
2. Taxes have doubled.
3. Water quality. Most areas the water is treated before application
to the orchids, some areas it is tested and treated again before being
allowed to be removed
4. Chemicals. Insecticides, fungicides, fertilizer, hormones, and
supplements
5. Lighting. Natural, supplemented, or artificially supplied. There
is the cost of the fixture, replacement bulbs, expense of operation,
type, spectrum, and meters to test all of the above.
6. Hardgoods. Pots, mounts, medium, clips, stakes, blades, hangers,
etc the list is endless and it all adds to the cost or price.
7 Space and equipment. I've allowed about 1 square foot for a mature
catlleya, I can go vertical, but have to protect against overspray and
drips.
8. Time. Inspection, watering, transplanting/dividing. That's just
time spent with the orchids. If I hire locally there is training.
9. Environment. I like miltonias, but have left them alone, have
mostly intermediate to warm growing, low altitude orchids.
10. Breeding. Eventually want to make my own cross, but then there is
time and uncertainty. However we all recognize the Krull-Smith,
Hauserman, Orchidview, Mendenhall/Oconee, Carmela, and Baldan to name a
few. Those are some of the "big guns", it doesn't mean there aren't
others trying it on their scale that haven't been recognized yet.
There is a bit of "Walter Mitty" in all of us.
11. Promotion, exhibition, control. I saw an online ad for a
"recently awarded" orchid for sale, $30,000. They weren't selling
divisions, they were selling rights to mass produce, before a leaf,
root, or stem got hijacked.
12. Marketability. Obscure species are interesting. Most sales
however aren't for orchids that you need to have magnification to see
or smell like road kill.

I know, I've left out a bunch of stuff. But it is a start. What are
some of the other issues?

Nancy

I know that some things have been left out of this lift.

What are the issues?
 

Nancy and Kathy,

Both of your letters are interesting and thought-stimulating.

Mick

What are the issues?
 

Fuel/transportation costs have tripled or quadrupled in recent years. Even
when you start with flasks, compots or seedlings, they have to come from
somewhere. For shows or other off-site events, yet more transportation.

Interest rates, also doubled in the last few years.

Kenni


"Nancy G." wrote in message
oups.com...

It's a bummer. I read the thread "Is there money in orchids" and made
no comment. As I see it, here are some of the issues.

1. Utility costs have quadrupled in the last 2 years.
2. Taxes have doubled.
3. Water quality. Most areas the water is treated before application
to the orchids, some areas it is tested and treated again before being
allowed to be removed
4. Chemicals. Insecticides, fungicides, fertilizer, hormones, and
supplements
5. Lighting. Natural, supplemented, or artificially supplied. There
is the cost of the fixture, replacement bulbs, expense of operation,
type, spectrum, and meters to test all of the above.
6. Hardgoods. Pots, mounts, medium, clips, stakes, blades, hangers,
etc the list is endless and it all adds to the cost or price.
7 Space and equipment. I've allowed about 1 square foot for a mature
catlleya, I can go vertical, but have to protect against overspray and
drips.
8. Time. Inspection, watering, transplanting/dividing. That's just
time spent with the orchids. If I hire locally there is training.
9. Environment. I like miltonias, but have left them alone, have
mostly intermediate to warm growing, low altitude orchids.
10. Breeding. Eventually want to make my own cross, but then there is
time and uncertainty. However we all recognize the Krull-Smith,
Hauserman, Orchidview, Mendenhall/Oconee, Carmela, and Baldan to name a
few. Those are some of the "big guns", it doesn't mean there aren't
others trying it on their scale that haven't been recognized yet.
There is a bit of "Walter Mitty" in all of us.
11. Promotion, exhibition, control. I saw an online ad for a
"recently awarded" orchid for sale, $30,000. They weren't selling
divisions, they were selling rights to mass produce, before a leaf,
root, or stem got hijacked.
12. Marketability. Obscure species are interesting. Most sales
however aren't for orchids that you need to have magnification to see
or smell like road kill.

I know, I've left out a bunch of stuff. But it is a start. What are
some of the other issues?

Nancy

I know that some things have been left out of this lift.

What are the issues?
 

Mick Fournier wrote:
Nancy and Kathy,

Both of your letters are interesting and thought-stimulating.

Mick

Somehow Mick I expected more out of you. Of course, it was either very
early or late when you posted. Don't go out of orchids because of this
discussion, at least not before I feel confident enough to buy a flask
or two.

Some of this may start to sound pretty abstract, so bear with me.

Can you grow multi tier? Not necessarily orchids or even plants.
What about small caged animals that would fit under the enches.
Earthworms, exotic (decorative) poultry, finches, canaries, parrots,
rabbits, cavies, mice, rats, lambs, kids (baby goats), reptiles,
amphibians, tarantulas, etc. All would contribute carbon dioxide, some
that require no additional heat could help raise the temperature by
occupying a trermal layer that we ordinarily avoid using. Properly
designed and maintained, there are by-products that can be recycled
back to the orchids or marketed and sold. Commercially available
"composted steer manure" sells for 4 cents a pound in a 40# bag.

For the squeamish, mushrooms or medicinal herbs (not that kind, don't
want anyone breaking into your space).

Are grants available, do some homework. What does it take to qualify?
Sheltered workshops were extensive in my area. That may not be the
answer, but in the past grants and tax breaks were available to
employers. It will add expenses. Payroll, book keeping,
justification, etc. They may require more expansive supervision to
keep their environment safe, limited use of chemicals, dangerous
equipment, etc. Most of the work is mind numbing and repetitive,
watering, transplanting, cleaning, packing and more. That's assuming a
mental handicap, unfair and limiting, but what most people conjure in
their mind. Are other qualifying individuals available? People to do
more critical work or "help drive the bus". Unfair question, but if
you wanted to expand your operation, would you hire a deaf/mute,
paraplegic, burn victim, someone in recovery, or parolee? I know
that's another can of worms, and Ray will probably say I'm being naive.
He'll be right, too.

What about training programs? Is there a local 4-H, FFA, agricultural
extension? Could you offer a fee based seminar or small class? Charge
them to learn how to transplant and care for their beginner orchid,
have some plants, books, and products available for sale at the same
time.

Do you advertise? Possibly there would be more local buyers if they
knew you existed. Cheat. Wear an orchid corsage to an event you are
going to attend anyway, deliver a plant or arrangement to a friends
workplace, church, wedding, or funeral. Leave a CONSPICUOUS card on
the gift. Don't make it too elaborate or expensive. The first may be
gratis, but have ongoing benefits. Maybe a table top display in a
business. Most won't let you set prices there, but people would see
your name and possibly your web address. Post your hours, prices,
point of contact there.

Before you build or expand, evaluate the greenhouse or your potential
growing area. Most are grotesquely inefficient. Wasted space, energy,
and resources. Would a better design or location give you a more
competive edge. I've been reading a solar greenhouse book and have
some articles on energy saving features. Sure the book was published
in the 70's, but is still an area that is sumarily ignored.
Orientation, angle, materials, thermal mass, glazing, insulation,
reflectivity. In a northern or midwest climate a better plan could
save the cost of modification in one season of heating. Some features
are tax deductible, expand. Would you be able to look at old mines
where 8 lights = 1 heater. How about underground parking, former
warehouses, the basements of apartment complexes?

Maybe the AOS should change its name to the AOG, Inc. "American Orchid
Growers, Inc." If it sounded more like a business than a good old boys
club it would get more respect. Little better actually than a local
garden club. Images of high tea, flowered dresses, and frumpy hats.
It started as a society for the idle rich. Orchids probably have a
luxery tax that no one knows about, too. If it doesn't, someone
somewhere is plotting to impose one.

So much for now, just some ideas I've been kicking around. Yes I'm
aware there is a big difference between "in theory" and "in practice".

Nancy

What are the issues?
 

K: That could work -- if they have a LOT of friends also interested in
orchids, or do their own lab work. I've been thru 2 labs which couldn't
deliver any product (claimed that everything either didn't germinate or
contaminated). The 3d lab is producing almost every pod I send (no reports
of contamination, only one report of "no germination"), but has a minimum
order of 1000 seedlings ... That's a lot of plants, so I need to be very
confident before I send one. Kenni

"K Barrett" wrote in message
. ..So what's a hobbyist to
do if they want something other than a boxstore
orchid? Create their own hybrids, trade 'em with their friends? Drive for
miles to get to the few shows in their areas that sell something other than
boxstore orchids? (SBOE, Redlands, Chicago)

What are the issues?
 

FWIW, this has happened to me too with stem props. I have heard many people
make the same statements. I have decided it is best to deal only with
companies who will refund the set up fees if EVERYTHING turns out to get
contaminated. I mean, honestly, *I* can do stem props with less than 100%
contamination on 20 stems, if I only had the time. And if the best a
company can do is tell me to wipe them with Physan BEFORE I FedEx more stems
next time, I can do with out their EXPERTISE. How can you even tell if they
did anything but charge a credit card and report failure several weeks
later?

"Kenni Judd" wrote in message
...
K: That could work -- if they have a LOT of friends also interested in
orchids, or do their own lab work. I've been thru 2 labs which couldn't
deliver any product (claimed that everything either didn't germinate or
contaminated). The 3d lab is producing almost every pod I send (no
reports of contamination, only one report of "no germination"), but has a
minimum order of 1000 seedlings ... That's a lot of plants, so I need to
be very confident before I send one. Kenni

"K Barrett" wrote in message
. ..So what's a hobbyist
to do if they want something other than a boxstore
orchid? Create their own hybrids, trade 'em with their friends? Drive
for
miles to get to the few shows in their areas that sell something other
than
boxstore orchids? (SBOE, Redlands, Chicago)

What are the issues?
 

Al: Altho I think stem props are a slightly different issue, compared to
seed pods, or even mericlones, I am pleased to report that the first 2 labs
got $0 of my money. The third lab, which is sending me progeny faster than
I can comfortably handle, invoices me only after shipping, so I also didn't
pay for the "no germination" pod that it reported. The first 2 labs didn't
get any $ from me, but they sure did mess up my long-term planning. [The 3d
lab also got back to me a lot faster, on the "no germination" pod, so I
could take it off my list of things to deal with.]

All of which begs the question of, what's a hobbyist to do with 1000 of a
particular clone or cross? That's a lot of plants for me to handle ...
Kenni




"al" wrote in message news:Q4t3h.958$244.476@trnddc01...
FWIW, this has happened to me too with stem props. I have heard many
people make the same statements. I have decided it is best to deal only
with companies who will refund the set up fees if EVERYTHING turns out to
get contaminated. I mean, honestly, *I* can do stem props with less than
100% contamination on 20 stems, if I only had the time. And if the best a
company can do is tell me to wipe them with Physan BEFORE I FedEx more
stems next time, I can do with out their EXPERTISE. How can you even tell
if they did anything but charge a credit card and report failure several
weeks later?

What are the issues?
 

Nancy,

Yes, you have entered the abstract/esoteric realm of orchid growing. I
haven't let myself go past mesoteric much less exoteric (ref Gurdjieff). As
far as multi-tier growing I draw the line at anoles and snakes in my
greenhouse.

I will try and answer a few questions that seem applicable to my operation.
I don't advertise or leave little CONSPICUOUS notes on people's windshields
any more. I don't tell people where my greenhouse is and I don't let
customers onto the premises if they do find it. Mail order only is my rule
and I only want to talk to new customers that know my base regular clientele
(those who can vouch for this potential new customer as basically sane).
When orchid people from the "general public" (yuck) were on site I hated
listening to their endless orchid chatter about the same boring stuff over
and over plus they steal way too much when I turn my back... so no one gets
into the lab anymore except a few Germans from overseas when they fly into
Florida for a pick-up. Germans are the best orchid buyers in my book...
Chinese second, Hong Kongers are third, Japan tied for third, Vietnam
fourth. Aussies and Canadians will have to shoot me dead first before I
ever let them into the lab again. And Brits? Whoever heard of those
penny-pinching Brits buying orchids from Americans? Ha- ha... it will never
happen.

As far as subsidized training programs go, everyone I hire is registered
retard... I live in Florida, they're everywhere here like ants.

As far expanding the greenhouse goes I don't get too overly particular. I
concentrate on getting the water right and the shadecloth overhead
positioned right so as not to burn up the plants. If I build it the orchids
will come... like in the movie with Kevin Costner. If the orchids need a
special, environment controlled, super fancy greenhouse then I don't want
'em. Besides I sell flasks not plants. I am more concerned about my flask
store room.

If anyone from the government tries to impose a tax on orchids... then I say
we give them 3 "free" orchids. That'll fix their ass good.

I hope I have answered your questions good. I like helping new people get
off on the right foot when they're thinking about getting into this
business.

Now I am going to go shave to go to my real job... which ain't growing
orchids. I work at a real job where there is real money.

Mick

PS, The AOS name is OK as it is. I don't see a reason to change it.

=======================

"Nancy G." wrote in message
oups.com...
Mick Fournier wrote:
Nancy and Kathy,

Both of your letters are interesting and thought-stimulating.

Mick

Somehow Mick I expected more out of you. Of course, it was either very
early or late when you posted. Don't go out of orchids because of this
discussion, at least not before I feel confident enough to buy a flask
or two.

Some of this may start to sound pretty abstract, so bear with me.

Can you grow multi tier? Not necessarily orchids or even plants.
What about small caged animals that would fit under the enches.
Earthworms, exotic (decorative) poultry, finches, canaries, parrots,
rabbits, cavies, mice, rats, lambs, kids (baby goats), reptiles,
amphibians, tarantulas, etc. All would contribute carbon dioxide, some
that require no additional heat could help raise the temperature by
occupying a trermal layer that we ordinarily avoid using. Properly
designed and maintained, there are by-products that can be recycled
back to the orchids or marketed and sold. Commercially available
"composted steer manure" sells for 4 cents a pound in a 40# bag.

For the squeamish, mushrooms or medicinal herbs (not that kind, don't
want anyone breaking into your space).

Are grants available, do some homework. What does it take to qualify?
Sheltered workshops were extensive in my area. That may not be the
answer, but in the past grants and tax breaks were available to
employers. It will add expenses. Payroll, book keeping,
justification, etc. They may require more expansive supervision to
keep their environment safe, limited use of chemicals, dangerous
equipment, etc. Most of the work is mind numbing and repetitive,
watering, transplanting, cleaning, packing and more. That's assuming a
mental handicap, unfair and limiting, but what most people conjure in
their mind. Are other qualifying individuals available? People to do
more critical work or "help drive the bus". Unfair question, but if
you wanted to expand your operation, would you hire a deaf/mute,
paraplegic, burn victim, someone in recovery, or parolee? I know
that's another can of worms, and Ray will probably say I'm being naive.
He'll be right, too.

What about training programs? Is there a local 4-H, FFA, agricultural
extension? Could you offer a fee based seminar or small class? Charge
them to learn how to transplant and care for their beginner orchid,
have some plants, books, and products available for sale at the same
time.

Do you advertise? Possibly there would be more local buyers if they
knew you existed. Cheat. Wear an orchid corsage to an event you are
going to attend anyway, deliver a plant or arrangement to a friends
workplace, church, wedding, or funeral. Leave a CONSPICUOUS card on
the gift. Don't make it too elaborate or expensive. The first may be
gratis, but have ongoing benefits. Maybe a table top display in a
business. Most won't let you set prices there, but people would see
your name and possibly your web address. Post your hours, prices,
point of contact there.

Before you build or expand, evaluate the greenhouse or your potential
growing area. Most are grotesquely inefficient. Wasted space, energy,
and resources. Would a better design or location give you a more
competive edge. I've been reading a solar greenhouse book and have
some articles on energy saving features. Sure the book was published
in the 70's, but is still an area that is sumarily ignored.
Orientation, angle, materials, thermal mass, glazing, insulation,
reflectivity. In a northern or midwest climate a better plan could
save the cost of modification in one season of heating. Some features
are tax deductible, expand. Would you be able to look at old mines
where 8 lights = 1 heater. How about underground parking, former
warehouses, the basements of apartment complexes?

Maybe the AOS should change its name to the AOG, Inc. "American Orchid
Growers, Inc." If it sounded more like a business than a good old boys
club it would get more respect. Little better actually than a local
garden club. Images of high tea, flowered dresses, and frumpy hats.
It started as a society for the idle rich. Orchids probably have a
luxery tax that no one knows about, too. If it doesn't, someone
somewhere is plotting to impose one.

So much for now, just some ideas I've been kicking around. Yes I'm
aware there is a big difference between "in theory" and "in practice".

Nancy

What are the issues?
 

On Sun, 5 Nov 2006 17:19:05 -0500, "Kenni Judd"
wrote:

All of which begs the question of, what's a hobbyist to do with 1000 of a
particular clone or cross? That's a lot of plants for me to handle ...
Kenni

The easy answer on that is that they will have a higher percentage die
off from compot stage to first bloom. So they see if they can e-bay a
flask or two, double their expected ability to handle plants and pitch
the rest. Cost of doing business is sometimes the unsellable gets
tossed even if you paid for it.
SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/orchids

What are the issues?
 

On Sun, 5 Nov 2006 17:19:05 -0500 in Kenni Judd wrote:

All of which begs the question of, what's a hobbyist to do with 1000 of a
particular clone or cross? That's a lot of plants for me to handle ...

Get a bunch of crack vials and some snazzy packaging and sell them to
the local box store as "baby orchids" (See Reka's earlier post on the topic).
--
Chris Dukes
elfick willg: you can't use dell to beat people, it wouldn't stand up
to the strain... much like attacking a tank with a wiffle bat

What are the issues?
 

First, let me apologize to the group, and thank you Mick for not over
reacting.
I got other private responses that said "been there, tried that, it
didn't work".

Subsequent markets would need to be developed and would probably be the
'cash crop" supporting the orchids. It would increase labor and
require intensive management. It would be a logistics nightmare.

In my area, most of the ideas I kicked around are implemented on a
rotaional basis on the season and market. Poults, harvest and sorting,
fallow or equipment storage, bedding plants, etc. A recurrent rotation
with a concurrent or dual application based on the season. An empty
structure has the same monthly payment as one utilized to its full
potential. Power failures have wiped out entire brooder operations or
crops of seedlings. Doesn't matter whether it's from heat and lost
ventilation or from cold and lost ventilation. It's a wasted season.

I also understand lab. Human nature is to touch , pick up, and look
at. In my case they may have damaged sensitive electronics or optical
equipment, or be injured by unexploded ordnance. Dust and static free
doesn't mix well with open house and tours. I resented the intrusion
and distraction. I have zero tolerance for thieves.

Again, sorry and thank you.

Nancy


Mick Fournier wrote:
Nancy,


Yes, you have entered the abstract/esoteric realm of orchid growing. I
haven't let myself go past mesoteric much less exoteric (ref Gurdjieff). As
far as multi-tier growing I draw the line at anoles and snakes in my
greenhouse.

I will try and answer a few questions that seem applicable to my operation.
I don't advertise or leave little CONSPICUOUS notes on people's windshields
any more. I don't tell people where my greenhouse is and I don't let
customers onto the premises if they do find it. Mail order only is my rule
and I only want to talk to new customers that know my base regular clientele
(those who can vouch for this potential new customer as basically sane).
When orchid people from the "general public" (yuck) were on site I hated
listening to their endless orchid chatter about the same boring stuff over
and over plus they steal way too much when I turn my back... so no one gets
into the lab anymore except a few Germans from overseas when they fly into
Florida for a pick-up. Germans are the best orchid buyers in my book...
Chinese second, Hong Kongers are third, Japan tied for third, Vietnam
fourth. Aussies and Canadians will have to shoot me dead first before I
ever let them into the lab again. And Brits? Whoever heard of those
penny-pinching Brits buying orchids from Americans? Ha- ha... it will never
happen.

As far as subsidized training programs go, everyone I hire is registered
retard... I live in Florida, they're everywhere here like ants.

As far expanding the greenhouse goes I don't get too overly particular. I
concentrate on getting the water right and the shadecloth overhead
positioned right so as not to burn up the plants. If I build it the orchids
will come... like in the movie with Kevin Costner. If the orchids need a
special, environment controlled, super fancy greenhouse then I don't want
'em. Besides I sell flasks not plants. I am more concerned about my flask
store room.

If anyone from the government tries to impose a tax on orchids... then I say
we give them 3 "free" orchids. That'll fix their ass good.

I hope I have answered your questions good. I like helping new people get
off on the right foot when they're thinking about getting into this
business.

Now I am going to go shave to go to my real job... which ain't growing
orchids. I work at a real job where there is real money.

Mick

PS, The AOS name is OK as it is. I don't see a reason to change it.

=======================

"Nancy G." wrote in message
oups.com...
Mick Fournier wrote:
Nancy and Kathy,

Both of your letters are interesting and thought-stimulating.

Mick

Somehow Mick I expected more out of you. Of course, it was either very
early or late when you posted. Don't go out of orchids because of this
discussion, at least not before I feel confident enough to buy a flask
or two.

Some of this may start to sound pretty abstract, so bear with me.

Can you grow multi tier? Not necessarily orchids or even plants.
What about small caged animals that would fit under the enches.
Earthworms, exotic (decorative) poultry, finches, canaries, parrots,
rabbits, cavies, mice, rats, lambs, kids (baby goats), reptiles,
amphibians, tarantulas, etc. All would contribute carbon dioxide, some
that require no additional heat could help raise the temperature by
occupying a trermal layer that we ordinarily avoid using. Properly
designed and maintained, there are by-products that can be recycled
back to the orchids or marketed and sold. Commercially available
"composted steer manure" sells for 4 cents a pound in a 40# bag.

For the squeamish, mushrooms or medicinal herbs (not that kind, don't
want anyone breaking into your space).

Are grants available, do some homework. What does it take to qualify?
Sheltered workshops were extensive in my area. That may not be the
answer, but in the past grants and tax breaks were available to
employers. It will add expenses. Payroll, book keeping,
justification, etc. They may require more expansive supervision to
keep their environment safe, limited use of chemicals, dangerous
equipment, etc. Most of the work is mind numbing and repetitive,
watering, transplanting, cleaning, packing and more. That's assuming a
mental handicap, unfair and limiting, but what most people conjure in
their mind. Are other qualifying individuals available? People to do
more critical work or "help drive the bus". Unfair question, but if
you wanted to expand your operation, would you hire a deaf/mute,
paraplegic, burn victim, someone in recovery, or parolee? I know
that's another can of worms, and Ray will probably say I'm being naive.
He'll be right, too.

What about training programs? Is there a local 4-H, FFA, agricultural
extension? Could you offer a fee based seminar or small class? Charge
them to learn how to transplant and care for their beginner orchid,
have some plants, books, and products available for sale at the same
time.

Do you advertise? Possibly there would be more local buyers if they
knew you existed. Cheat. Wear an orchid corsage to an event you are
going to attend anyway, deliver a plant or arrangement to a friends
workplace, church, wedding, or funeral. Leave a CONSPICUOUS card on
the gift. Don't make it too elaborate or expensive. The first may be
gratis, but have ongoing benefits. Maybe a table top display in a
business. Most won't let you set prices there, but people would see
your name and possibly your web address. Post your hours, prices,
point of contact there.

Before you build or expand, evaluate the greenhouse or your potential
growing area. Most are grotesquely inefficient. Wasted space, energy,
and resources. Would a better design or location give you a more
competive edge. I've been reading a solar greenhouse book and have
some articles on energy saving features. Sure the book was published
in the 70's, but is still an area that is sumarily ignored.
Orientation, angle, materials, thermal mass, glazing, insulation,
reflectivity. In a northern or midwest climate a better plan could
save the cost of modification in one season of heating. Some features
are tax deductible, expand. Would you be able to look at old mines
where 8 lights = 1 heater. How about underground parking, former
warehouses, the basements of apartment complexes?

Maybe the AOS should change its name to the AOG, Inc. "American Orchid
Growers, Inc." If it sounded more like a business than a good old boys
club it would get more respect. Little better actually than a local
garden club. Images of high tea, flowered dresses, and frumpy hats.
It started as a society for the idle rich. Orchids probably have a
luxery tax that no one knows about, too. If it doesn't, someone
somewhere is plotting to impose one.

So much for now, just some ideas I've been kicking around. Yes I'm
aware there is a big difference between "in theory" and "in practice".

Nancy

What are the issues?
 

SuE: Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't figure most hobbyists had the space to
hold 1000, or even 500, plants from flask or compot to first bloom. It's a
pretty long time ... And e-baying 2 flasks only gets you down from 1000 to
900.

I don't agree with you about the higher percentage of die-off. We don't baby
our plants, here -- if they can't take the local environment, they just die.
We would much rather lose plants early, than after we've put 3-5 years into
them, bringing them up to flowering, so we practice Darwin "survival of the
fittest." Hobbyists are more likely to fuss over them than we are... and
thereby keep the weak along with the strong.

No dispute that pitching the unsellable is a cost of doing business. But
all costs of doing business have to somehow get plugged back into the price
of what one does sell, if one wants to remain in business ... Kenni


The easy answer on that is that they will have a higher percentage die
off from compot stage to first bloom. So they see if they can e-bay a
flask or two, double their expected ability to handle plants and pitch
the rest. Cost of doing business is sometimes the unsellable gets
tossed even if you paid for it.
SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/orchids

What are the issues?
 

On Mon, 6 Nov 2006 22:02:40 -0500, "Kenni Judd"
wrote:

I don't agree with you about the higher percentage of die-off. We don't baby
our plants, here -- if they can't take the local environment, they just die.

Kenni -
My thought was 50-75% would not make a week out of flask due to
inexperienced handling. I have enough trouble keeping compots
healthy... of course I forget to fuss.
SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/orchids

What are the issues?
 

Hi Nancy,

Thanks for the ideas, do not apologize.

One thing that does worry me is the local society sponsored orchid shows.
These shows count on orchid sales to pay the bills and the current show
trends have not been very good. At most shows it seems that attendance is
down and a more common attitude of the public seems to be "A great variety,
but not
many interesting ones........And of course you can not beat the price at the
box store!" Instead of coming home from the show with two plants, they get
fired up at the show and then head off to the box store to buy three plants
for the same money.

I do not think that there is much the vendors can do about price. I tend to
sell plants at shows for about $30. Of that $30, about $6 from every plant
sold goes directly to the society as a table fee or commission. In
addition, I figure another $2 from every plant sold goes to pay for the
costs associated with putting in an exhibit. If we remove the fees that I
must pay to underwrite the cost of a show, I am receiving about $22 per
plants sold. Not very different from what some box stores receive.

Some societies are already feeling the pinch. Over the past few months two
of my commission shows have announced rate hikes. It is the first time I
have seen rate hikes in ten years. In the first one, all of the vendors
refused to do the show. I attended the society meeting of the second.
There was a general feeling at the meeting that vendors could just raise
their prices to cover the increase in fees. Thankfully my wife was there (I
am too gruff to be allowed to speak in public) and she was able to explain
we deal in a commodity that has it price set by the market (i.e. box
stores.) If we raise our prices too high not only will we lose sales but
the general public will think of the show as a rip-off and never come back.
I did this show and most of the commission increase came directly out of my
back pocket. I do not know if the other vendors were able to past on the
costs or if they ate them as well.

I just got a mailing from New York and they are introducing new rules which
they hope will help vendors. One rule prohibits bottom feeding pricing and
another prohibits Sunday afternoon dumping. The mailing is just about as
adamant as it can be without crossing the price fixing line. I have always
though trying to control a commodity's price was never easy and in most
cases not a good idea. At least the show's board recognized problems and
acted in a mater they felt was best for the show and its vendors. We will
see.

All you guys out there involved in putting on these shows need to be
watching closely to make sure your show remands viable for the number and
type of vendors it involves or the society desires. Creative solutions are
going to be required and show boards are facing hard decisions.


Pat

What are the issues?
 

On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 17:22:21 -0500, "Pat Brennan"
wrote:
I just got a mailing from New York and they are introducing new rules which
they hope will help vendors. One rule prohibits bottom feeding pricing and
another prohibits Sunday afternoon dumping. The mailing is just about as
adamant as it can be without crossing the price fixing line. I have always
though trying to control a commodity's price was never easy and in most
cases not a good idea. At least the show's board recognized problems and
acted in a mater they felt was best for the show and its vendors. We will
see.

All you guys out there involved in putting on these shows need to be
watching closely to make sure your show remands viable for the number and
type of vendors it involves or the society desires. Creative solutions are
going to be required and show boards are facing hard decisions.
Pat

Denver acts as vendor for the Spring show in March and uses that for a
fund raiser. The prior year we paid the gardens over $800 as their
25% take on profits after sales. This year it was under $300. One of
the problems this year has been the Gardens keep miss printing our
show dates. So that we have the Second Weekend in March and in
October. They published this fall show as the 3rd weekend. All we
need is a Bronco game or a Snow storm and we are out the entire
commission.

We used to drop prices on Sunday afternoon - it increased traffic...
but it got so people often waited for Sunday afternoon to buy. This
year we found a local vendor to front for us. We did not take
discounts because he took back what we could not sell. So we had a
better selection on Sunday and nothing looked Shop-worn. He claimed
he was getting the phone calls - he might as well be our wholesaler.
Have his tags in the plants, etc.
SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/orchids

What are the issues?
 

Big question: would he be willing to do it again?

We used to drop prices on Sunday afternoon - it increased traffic...
but it got so people often waited for Sunday afternoon to buy. This
year we found a local vendor to front for us. We did not take
discounts because he took back what we could not sell. So we had a
better selection on Sunday and nothing looked Shop-worn. He claimed
he was getting the phone calls - he might as well be our wholesaler.
Have his tags in the plants, etc.
SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/orchids

What are the issues?
 

Taken with Koopowitz's recent editorial in 'The Orchid Digest' it appears
some societies are moving away from the 'show' aspect of their annual fund
raisers and only having the 'sale' portions. Two of the societies in the
CalSierra region hold sales instead of shows. I believe both are held in
conjunction with large home and garden shows. The DVOS had their show in
October, did not buy any plants as a society, only sold member's plants and
took a cut from the vendor (like what Pat was saying). We made more $$ than
in any previous year. We tried 1) being a vendor and having other vendors,
2) being the only vendor and 3) this time selling society members plants and
letting vendors sell. To us it looks like #3 is the winner. Also we
advertised the heck out of the show with signs placed at just about every
intersection in town. Lo tech.

I like Pat's comment that the local show may act only to whet the public's
appetite for orchids, so they then go off to Trader Joe's and buy their
plants. I suppose one would have to wonder where does one's sympathies lie?
As a Board member I wanted more members to come to the meetings. But as I
write this, maybe the club makes more money from the sale than they do from
the members and so why spend so much energy on the least productive portion
of the Club's income? If a club was to be run as a business then members,
newsletters and meetings are a loss leader. The real money comes from
auctions and sales.

I dunno, I'm just talking off the top of my head here, and I think I just
scared myself. *G*. Where's that dang 'Matrix' when you need it?

One of my friends eyes the progress of big box stores as a good thing.
Finally time for the vendor to finally make some decent money. But then
he's on the *Big* side of the business. He wholesales to box stores. To
him the debate is one of Darwinism. If you can't compete then get out of
the way. I suppose its the same way in any ag business. The little niche
growers vs the multinational conglomerates. I suppose our local societies
could be thought of as the Chez Panisses of the restaurant world, insisting
on the freshest most organic of foods for our restaurant's clientele who are
willing to pay the price. (Hmmm... there may be a newsletter article in
that notion...)

K Barrett

What are the issues?
 

The NCOS publishes a growing guide with articles about how to grow various
genera and different aspects of orchid culture. It is about 20 to 30 pages
and the ads are in color so it costs a bit to produce. They hand it out
free at the show/sale they have in October. They sell advertising space in
this book to offset the cost of producing it. It is worth it to me, and I
think to other local orchid growers, to buy the ad space in this book
because it is local and given out to like 10,000 people a year who show up
at the NCOS show/sale with an interest in finding local orchid recourses.
It is one of the few places where I *see* a benefit of buying advertising.
It is one of the few ideas to come out of my local orchid society that I
think all local vendors could easily support with a minimum of fuss and
competitive jostling. Included in this guide are also advertisements for
local nearby smaller societies so it is possible that local societies could
band together to produce it and share its costs and benefits at local
functions. Two years ago they bought enough booklets to last two years but
Sadly, I think my society has concluded it is too expensive to produce and
is not going to do it again next year. This is really a pity from my point
of view.

What are the issues?
 

Past exchanges have shown that OS show procedures vary greatly in different
parts of the country. I can speak only to South Florida. In our area:

Yes, local OS shows are struggling. It's harder every year to find
affordable venues that are suitable. The rent for both mall space and
freestanding buildings goes up and up each year. Mall space is not
conducive to charging admission, and requires MISERABLE hours from both OS
volunteers and the vendors. Freestanding buildings are difficult to even
find, much less rent, and often the size doesn't match, compared to the OS'
most recent show. So they either have to add or drop vendors. Both
problematic, from the grower side of the equation. No one wants to be
dropped because of a smaller location; on the other hand, going into a
10-vendor show that used to be 5
vendors, in a new location (with no assurance that the OS has put any of our
show fee $$ into extra advertising to compensate), is also pretty scary.

It's also becoming harder to charge admission even at free-standing
locations, at least in some cases. I've seen people walk away rather than
pay $3, or even
$1, to enter a show. I'm no longer active in any local OS management (I
found it a conflict of interest with my job here at JBO), but I hear through
the
grapevine that raffle sales are also generally down. All of which means
that vendor fees keep going up -- I WISH it had been 10 years since I'd seen
a rate hike!
[Although honesty compels me to say that since everything else in the world
seems to be going up (except the price of blooming orchids), if you haven't
had one for 10 years, you're probably overdue .... ]

The insistence of the OSs on having exhibits, in addition to the growers'
sales booths, further restricts their available options for venues, but they
obviously want them, and if they're sponsoring the show, that's their
prerogative. But when the OSs have to pay more for venue rent, that turns
into higher vendor fees (added to the cost that Pat mentioned -- it costs us
vendors $$ to put those things together). My option as a vendor is simply
to either accept or decline the invitation.

I hope the rules at the show you mentioned work, but I'm doubtful. In my
experience, OS tend to invite 2 categories of growers for whom Sunday
dumping is simply inevitable:

1. Out-of-country growers who truly can't afford to ship any unsold plants
back to their country-of-origin. Yes, these plants were really cheap, back
in those countries ... By the time you get them landed here, the cost is
usually triple or better. Sending them back simply wouldn't be feasible.
[Besides the cost, there's the double shipping stress on the plants]. So
"everything must go" before the show ends. They'll lose less money selling
them below cost than they will by throwing them in the dumpster.

2. Backyard growers. They take a booth because they have excess plants to
sell (divisions of plants they bought a long time ago, things they didn't
like as much as they thought they would, the other X#plants from a compot or
flask after they've picked their 2 or 3 favs) and need to make room in
their own growing areas. Then, they realize that these plants won't fill
their tables nor cover the booth fee, so they order a couple boxes from
Hawaii, Thailand, or wherever (and find out _after_ they've paid the nursery
that the "landed" cost is a lot more than the per plant cost they saw on
some website). They don't want to take anything home, because after all,
their original goal was to make room, not get more filled up. [And they
need to pay the current VISA bills for what they bought, along with the
shipping, but have no venue to sell the plants the following week.]

When those in charge are serious about such rules (in my experience, seldom
at OS shows), these growers will at least try to wholesale their excess to
the professionals in attendance as vendors. But what can't be disposed of
that way will be dumped -- to the public -- at ridiculously low prices. So
the customers don't need to leave the show and go to box stores; they can
just walk to the next booth. Some of these customers realize they're
getting "distress sale" prices; others think that's what the prices should
have been all along and that the other vendors charging realistic prices are
a "bunch of ripoffs."

Best of luck to all, Kenni

One thing that does worry me is the local society sponsored orchid shows.
These shows count on orchid sales to pay the bills and the current show
trends have not been very good. At most shows it seems that attendance is
down and a more common attitude of the public seems to be "A great
variety, but not
many interesting ones........And of course you can not beat the price at
the
box store!" Instead of coming home from the show with two plants, they
get fired up at the show and then head off to the box store to buy three
plants for the same money.

I do not think that there is much the vendors can do about price. I tend
to sell plants at shows for about $30. Of that $30, about $6 from every
plant sold goes directly to the society as a table fee or commission. In
addition, I figure another $2 from every plant sold goes to pay for the
costs associated with putting in an exhibit. If we remove the fees that I
must pay to underwrite the cost of a show, I am receiving about $22 per
plants sold. Not very different from what some box stores receive.

Some societies are already feeling the pinch. Over the past few months
two of my commission shows have announced rate hikes. It is the first
time I have seen rate hikes in ten years. In the first one, all of the
vendors refused to do the show. I attended the society meeting of the
second. There was a general feeling at the meeting that vendors could just
raise their prices to cover the increase in fees. Thankfully my wife was
there (I am too gruff to be allowed to speak in public) and she was able
to explain we deal in a commodity that has it price set by the market
(i.e. box stores.) If we raise our prices too high not only will we lose
sales but the general public will think of the show as a rip-off and never
come back. I did this show and most of the commission increase came
directly out of my back pocket. I do not know if the other vendors were
able to past on the costs or if they ate them as well.

I just got a mailing from New York and they are introducing new rules
which they hope will help vendors. One rule prohibits bottom feeding
pricing and another prohibits Sunday afternoon dumping. The mailing is
just about as adamant as it can be without crossing the price fixing line.
I have always though trying to control a commodity's price was never easy
and in most cases not a good idea. At least the show's board recognized
problems and acted in a mater they felt was best for the show and its
vendors. We will see.

All you guys out there involved in putting on these shows need to be
watching closely to make sure your show remands viable for the number and
type of vendors it involves or the society desires. Creative solutions
are going to be required and show boards are facing hard decisions.


Pat

What are the issues?
 

On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 21:29:13 -0500, "Kenni Judd"
wrote:

Big question: would he be willing to do it again?

We used to drop prices on Sunday afternoon - it increased traffic...
but it got so people often waited for Sunday afternoon to buy. This
year we found a local vendor to front for us. We did not take
discounts because he took back what we could not sell. So we had a
better selection on Sunday and nothing looked Shop-worn. He claimed
he was getting the phone calls - he might as well be our wholesaler.
Have his tags in the plants, etc.
SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/orchids


Yes, He has signed up for March 2007. He considered it an advertising
piece as well as covering his costs. It is the Contribution Margin
that is slim here. But at least when someone calls to ask about one
of the plants they bought he can tell them to come in and bring it. It
has his tag and it was his volume sale. He wants to bring "club
specials" to the preview party and have more exciting plants for the
club growers. Species and Ascda, Vanda, etc.
Most of the sales are for the non-growing public. Generic (but
labeled) phals and other pretties or easy growers.
SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/orchids

What are the issues?
 

On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 17:12:53 -0500, "Kenni Judd"
wrote:

When those in charge are serious about such rules (in my experience, seldom
at OS shows), these growers will at least try to wholesale their excess to
the professionals in attendance as vendors. But what can't be disposed of
that way will be dumped -- to the public -- at ridiculously low prices. So
the customers don't need to leave the show and go to box stores; they can
just walk to the next booth. Some of these customers realize they're
getting "distress sale" prices; others think that's what the prices should
have been all along and that the other vendors charging realistic prices are
a "bunch of ripoffs."

Best of luck to all, Kenni

Kenni -
The no dumping is one Alan of Gold Country taught us. He believes in
it to the point he will find a way to ship or offer them to the OS for
Raffle. We only 'rule' that way when we are our own vendor at the
spring show. That is why we were so happy to be able to use the ONE
vendor in the region as a wholesaler. And not have to dump. We had a
1/3 of our sales during preview and 1/3 after lunch on Sunday. That
meant we were getting price cutters only. First it was a discounted
price, then we were discounting during preview for members (closed
preview) and have the dumpers shop on Sunday for discounts. Cutting
that helped.
We had more variety - but we had members who would not come berceuse
they could go to the shop on Monday and get the same plant. Their
loss.

Our spring show is now going to be a bench show - no displays except
the bench committees' attempt to make their table a nicer display than
the next door set. Using the display of similar plants and
arrangement to assist in getting people over the fear of putting
together a display.


Al - I like your booklet idea if the area has enough growers and
societies to do it.

We are having trouble getting small local groups to continue to do a
display. 2 that had regularly displayed with us, did not do anything
this spring or fall.
SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/orchids

What are the issues?
 

" I suppose our local societies
could be thought of as the Chez Panisses of the restaurant world,
insisting
on the freshest most organic of foods for our restaurant's clientele
who are
willing to pay the price. (Hmmm... there may be a newsletter article
in
that notion...)

K Barrett "

From a user's view point, this quote is the smartest thing said in this
thread. IMHO "club" and "business" are and should be separate. Mixing
the two, in clubs I have joined, works the hell out of members and
produces a bland product. The best clubs concentrate on member
enjoyment and let the business aspects take a back seat. The local OS
serves bad coffee and speakers, has little room for socializing, is set
up like a classroom and is populated by a pretty dour member set. At
their shows everybody is hovered around the sales booths and the
exhibits stand in lonely beauty, abandoned, unexplained, an
afterthought to this business of selling. Wouldn't it be a winner if,
lined up behind a First Prize Winner there were a dozen siblings, in
bloom, waiting for a new owner! Instead, you must walk from this beauty
to some forlorn stall and buy a bare root baby that looks like a cold
wet dog. That, by the way, is the feeling I get when buying from a big
box. That, by the way, is the way I got into orchids, buying a blooming
beauty for someone. That rule still applies for me. I seldom buy one to
grow, I buy it to bloom! There the BBs have you beat, sell the bloom
not the plant. They just cannot perform that feat very well, you should
be able to.OR, split your effort to sell plants AND bloomers, two VERY
different markets. Plants should arrive ready to grow, no repotting for
two years, with complete instructions. No difficult to grow,seldom
blooming wonders. Check roses, they only sell when in bloom, orchids
should be the same. If you would only decide to be bloom sellers your
life would be easy and wallets fat. Lowe's only sells blooming plants
in pots, maybe you should take the hint. Lowe's orchids in a bag you
ask ? The bag has a huge bloom on it! Like I say, they only sell
blooms. Most orchid sellers show you the bloom then sell you the plant!
Most that will bloom in two to five YEARS!!! Give me a break.
Joe T
I confess that I do have one plant to grow, a Max. Picta. My wife gave
me a hand full of pbulbs 12 years ago saying "this is an orchid" Yeah,
right! I have been growing that damn thing for TWELVE YEARS! Always
near death, never a bloom. My wife could compete with some orchid
sellers I have known. Heavy on the "have"



K Barrett wrote:
Taken with Koopowitz's recent editorial in 'The Orchid Digest' it appears
some societies are moving away from the 'show' aspect of their annual fund
raisers and only having the 'sale' portions. Two of the societies in the
CalSierra region hold sales instead of shows. I believe both are held in
conjunction with large home and garden shows. The DVOS had their show in
October, did not buy any plants as a society, only sold member's plants and
took a cut from the vendor (like what Pat was saying). We made more $$ than
in any previous year. We tried 1) being a vendor and having other vendors,
2) being the only vendor and 3) this time selling society members plants and
letting vendors sell. To us it looks like #3 is the winner. Also we
advertised the heck out of the show with signs placed at just about every
intersection in town. Lo tech.

I like Pat's comment that the local show may act only to whet the public's
appetite for orchids, so they then go off to Trader Joe's and buy their
plants. I suppose one would have to wonder where does one's sympathies lie?
As a Board member I wanted more members to come to the meetings. But as I
write this, maybe the club makes more money from the sale than they do from
the members and so why spend so much energy on the least productive portion
of the Club's income? If a club was to be run as a business then members,
newsletters and meetings are a loss leader. The real money comes from
auctions and sales.

I dunno, I'm just talking off the top of my head here, and I think I just
scared myself. *G*. Where's that dang 'Matrix' when you need it?

One of my friends eyes the progress of big box stores as a good thing.
Finally time for the vendor to finally make some decent money. But then
he's on the *Big* side of the business. He wholesales to box stores. To
him the debate is one of Darwinism. If you can't compete then get out of
the way. I suppose its the same way in any ag business. The little niche
growers vs the multinational conglomerates. I suppose our local societies
could be thought of as the Chez Panisses of the restaurant world, insisting
on the freshest most organic of foods for our restaurant's clientele who are
willing to pay the price. (Hmmm... there may be a newsletter article in
that notion...)

K Barrett

What are the issues?
 

No dumping: I had a boss who produced Poinsettias for retail sale in his
greenhouse at a local nursery which was open to the public. People came in
all summer and fall to watch the progress. We did them from cuttings in the
summer and tended them as they grew and the season arrived to sell them.
These were PREMIUM Poinsettias. He would *NOT* discount them as Christmas
got closer and customers started trying to bargain. He would say he would
rather toss them outside the morning after Christmas than give them away the
day before. Since their selling value drops to zero on Christmas morning,
this is exactly what he did with many of them, but I do believe he was
correct in his assertion that dropping the price creates a false sense of
their value for future sales. Another way to illustrate this future value
effect is with that of seasonal sales. I had a 20% sale one July, typically
my lowest sales month, and the next year in May and June I had customers
asking me when I was going to put things on sale again and telling me they
were holding off buying until I had the sale. And the numbers for the
months leading up to known sales did tend to drop a bit as people waited for
the bargains they thought were coming. The only reason to have a sale is to
increase income. Often you shoot yourself in the foot by reducing the price
to prevent loss. It is better to plan ahead as much as possible (I prefer
spreadsheets) and learn how much stock to have on hand than to dump or slash
because in the end it comes back to bite you on the butt. I can imagine it
must drive the vendors who rely on show sales to put their kids through
college insane to watch backyard vendors destroy livelihoods and calling it
'profit' without any inkling of what they are truly doing. There are ways
to do things like "George Washington's Birthday Sale" that increase income
and reduce prices, but these are *planned events* and do not dump
merchandise in the manner we are discussing here.


"Susan Erickson" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 21:29:13 -0500, "Kenni Judd"
wrote:

Big question: would he be willing to do it again?

We used to drop prices on Sunday afternoon - it increased traffic...
but it got so people often waited for Sunday afternoon to buy. This
year we found a local vendor to front for us. We did not take
discounts because he took back what we could not sell. So we had a
better selection on Sunday and nothing looked Shop-worn. He claimed
he was getting the phone calls - he might as well be our wholesaler.
Have his tags in the plants, etc.
SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/orchids


Yes, He has signed up for March 2007. He considered it an advertising
piece as well as covering his costs. It is the Contribution Margin
that is slim here. But at least when someone calls to ask about one
of the plants they bought he can tell them to come in and bring it. It
has his tag and it was his volume sale. He wants to bring "club
specials" to the preview party and have more exciting plants for the
club growers. Species and Ascda, Vanda, etc.
Most of the sales are for the non-growing public. Generic (but
labeled) phals and other pretties or easy growers.
SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/orchids

What are the issues?
 

We started e baying different stuff available locally and one orchid
that didn't sell. There's a lot more that goes into it than meets the
eye at first glance. The listing charge, final value fee, Paypal fees,
packaging and shipping. The value of an e bay store v cost of
individual listing, etc.

The break points for product acquisition (price break for quantity and
cost of shipping to your location). You said 1000 plants per flask
order on your end. (Don't anser, comes under the heading of NUNYA)
That could be 10 flasks @100 or 50 flasks @ 20. You know the flask
style, your cost, condition, and have a pretty good idea of the shelf
life of the flask before it breaks down and has to be potted out. Do
you have enough time to sell before the expiration date? Do you take a
chance and sell at auction or for a fixed price with a margin for your
time?

I"m trying to grow from flask. Stupid me, but I've received deflasked,
jumbled, overgrown, small plants, as well as really premier quality and
condition. The first 3 have to be dealt with immediately, the small
plants might be held for a while, recipients option. The last gives
the best results for survival obviously. Now I'm suspicious of the out
of flask or overgrown. It's bad enough that the estimated mortality is
25% without adding the extra handling 4 days apart for the deflasked
(one order deflasked was very nice) or plants that are already
deteriorating in flask. Jumbling is outside the control and a chance
you take. Heck, even you take that chance unless you can pick up your
order and drive them yourself.

Then there's the hype. In your case the uniqueness and objective of
the cross. Are the parent plants awarded, were they clones, blah blah?
Can you provide an off site link of the photos to minimize the price
of the ad? Do you have photos of the parent plants and blooms, pod
development, maybe a photo of the lab? You are selling dreams in
addition to orchids. You know the hype, limited availability, every
plant will have a different bloom, etc.

Here I am back in the fray.

Nancy


Susan Erickson wrote:
On Sun, 5 Nov 2006 17:19:05 -0500, "Kenni Judd"
wrote:

All of which begs the question of, what's a hobbyist to do with 1000 of a
particular clone or cross? That's a lot of plants for me to handle ...
Kenni

So they see if they can e-bay a
flask or two, double their expected ability to handle plants and pitch
the rest. Cost of doing business is sometimes the unsellable gets
tossed even if you paid for it.
SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/orchids

What are the issues?
 

Nancy: I don't e-bay, for reasons including and beyond those you mention.
Nor do I ship flasks, retail (same -- and I always plan for the likelihood
that I may have to de-flask all 1000 within a day of arrival, if I have
flasks shipped to me). The 1000 plants per clone or seed pod flasked can
break down in varying amounts, but the usual around here for
grower-nurseries is 20 flasks of 50 plants each. That's why I said that
selling off 2 flasks would only get you down from 1000 to 900. There may be
labs out there which would do smaller runs or smaller bottles, but I haven't
found them yet and in any event, the per-plant or per-bottle cost would have
to be higher.

The earlier expressed view (I forget the author) that _flowers_ rather than
plants are the sellers is mostly correct. Flowers are relatively easy to
sell. The market for plants out-of-flower is very limited, but it does
exist, and we do try to use it to supplement our sales of flowering plants.
Holding even 100 plants from flask to bloom would be a big task for most
hobbyists ... It also costs $$ to the pro growers, to raise 1000 of them
(less mortality), which is why whomever said our lives would be easy and our
wallets fat, if we quit trying to sell plants and just sold flowers, is
seriously wrong. Even a mature plant spends x% of its time out of bloom
(varies by type of plant, rarely less than 50%), but it still costs $$ to
maintain that plant till it blooms again ...

Marketing/hype is an art; we try (and yes, we have flower pictures, but no
lab pics as we do not do this in-house). I suspect I could do better if I
were less honest (a sad state of affairs).

As for the quality of the product, so far we have done mostly species (what
the hobbyist customer says s/he wants) and a couple of clones -- one
awarded, the other might well be if I had time to take it to judging,
assuming it bloomed at the right time of the month to get it there in prime
condition. But I have also long maintained that the AOS judging system is
way out of step with the wants of the orchid-buying public. The plant may
have an FCC, an AM, or an HCC. None of those awards give any points for
most of what hobby-customers say they want: long flower life, frequent
blooming, fragrance, etc., etc.

Best of luck with your own flasks! Kenni


"Nancy G." wrote in message
ups.com...
We started e baying different stuff available locally and one orchid
that didn't sell. There's a lot more that goes into it than meets the
eye at first glance. The listing charge, final value fee, Paypal fees,
packaging and shipping. The value of an e bay store v cost of
individual listing, etc.

The break points for product acquisition (price break for quantity and
cost of shipping to your location). You said 1000 plants per flask
order on your end. (Don't anser, comes under the heading of NUNYA)
That could be 10 flasks @100 or 50 flasks @ 20. You know the flask
style, your cost, condition, and have a pretty good idea of the shelf
life of the flask before it breaks down and has to be potted out. Do
you have enough time to sell before the expiration date? Do you take a
chance and sell at auction or for a fixed price with a margin for your
time?

I"m trying to grow from flask. Stupid me, but I've received deflasked,
jumbled, overgrown, small plants, as well as really premier quality and
condition. The first 3 have to be dealt with immediately, the small
plants might be held for a while, recipients option. The last gives
the best results for survival obviously. Now I'm suspicious of the out
of flask or overgrown. It's bad enough that the estimated mortality is
25% without adding the extra handling 4 days apart for the deflasked
(one order deflasked was very nice) or plants that are already
deteriorating in flask. Jumbling is outside the control and a chance
you take. Heck, even you take that chance unless you can pick up your
order and drive them yourself.

Then there's the hype. In your case the uniqueness and objective of
the cross. Are the parent plants awarded, were they clones, blah blah?
Can you provide an off site link of the photos to minimize the price
of the ad? Do you have photos of the parent plants and blooms, pod
development, maybe a photo of the lab? You are selling dreams in
addition to orchids. You know the hype, limited availability, every
plant will have a different bloom, etc.

Here I am back in the fray.

Nancy

What are the issues?
 

"Kenni Judd" wrote in message
...
All of which means
that vendor fees keep going up -- I WISH it had been 10 years since I'd
seen
a rate hike!
[Although honesty compels me to say that since everything else in the
world
seems to be going up (except the price of blooming orchids), if you
haven't
had one for 10 years, you're probably overdue .... ]

Hi Kenni,

Around here we have two types of shows. The first is much like yours in
that the society sells sales tables. The cost of tables at these shows have
risen like every thing else over the years.

In the Mid Atlantic area we also have a second type of show, the commission
show. They are part of the legacy left by Merit Huntington. Instead of
vendors taking money, the society runs a central checkout. The society
collects money, handles sales tax, processes credit cards, packs the
purchases, and provides culture info (thus the booklet Al was talking about
for the DC show). Instead of receiving a fixed table fee, the society takes
a percent of the sales (20% in most cases). These shows are cool in that a
society's financial success in not measured by the number of tables they
sell and the amount they charged for them, instead the society's financial
success is measured by how successful the show was for its vendors. The
society is directly rewarded for advertising the show and getting out the
people.

When one of these shows is very successful, the 20% commission I pay is much
higher than what I would have paid at a flat fee show. On the other hand,
if people fail to show up for a show (a tropical storm the weekend of the
show) I end up paying less for my space than I would have if it had been a
flat fee show. Both risk and reward are shared by the society and the
vendors. As long as the show's sales increased over time, so did the amount
I paid to the society. It is not like my fees for these shows have not
increased, over the years the societies and their vendors have built up some
very successful shows. It is just the 20% commission rate that has remained
constant.

Pat

What are the issues?
 

At the recent Merritt Huntington Symposium in Virginia Beach last weekend,
they sold table space at $200 a table. The tables are like 2 x 6 feet.
They had seven vendors that each purchased between two and four tables.
They had an attendance of 55 people over the two day symposium, even though
110 had registered. That kind of success should weed out just about all the
vendors from next year's symposium...

"Pat Brennan" wrote in message
...
In the Mid Atlantic area we also have a second type of show, the
commission show. They are part of the legacy left by Merit Huntington.
Instead of vendors taking money, the society runs a central checkout. The
society collects money, handles sales tax, processes credit cards, packs
the purchases, and provides culture info (thus the booklet Al was talking
about for the DC show). Instead of receiving a fixed table fee, the
society takes a percent of the sales (20% in most cases). These shows are
cool in that a society's financial success in not measured by the number
of tables they sell and the amount they charged for them, instead the
society's financial success is measured by how successful the show was for
its vendors. The society is directly rewarded for advertising the show
and getting out the people.

When one of these shows is very successful, the 20% commission I pay is
much higher than what I would have paid at a flat fee show. On the other
hand, if people fail to show up for a show (a tropical storm the weekend
of the show) I end up paying less for my space than I would have if it had
been a flat fee show. Both risk and reward are shared by the society and
the vendors. As long as the show's sales increased over time, so did the
amount I paid to the society. It is not like my fees for these shows have
not increased, over the years the societies and their vendors have built
up some very successful shows. It is just the 20% commission rate that
has remained constant.

Pat

What are the issues?
 

I remember Merritt lobbying to disband the EOC saying there was just no
future in these type of events. Seems about right that now one of these
type of events bearing his name would have fixed price tables.

As for the numbers, they look very good for me. Maybe if I figure out the
right people to kiss up to I might score an invite for next year.


"al" wrote in message news:Coo6h.8596$tb2.8255@trnddc08...
At the recent Merritt Huntington Symposium in Virginia Beach last weekend,
they sold table space at $200 a table. The tables are like 2 x 6 feet.
They had seven vendors that each purchased between two and four tables.
They had an attendance of 55 people over the two day symposium, even
though 110 had registered. That kind of success should weed out just
about all the vendors from next year's symposium...

What are the issues?
 

With 55 people in attendance and 7 of THEM vendors, you have to be invited?
Good heavens.

My plants were there but I was not. I can not afford to close the
greenhouse for two days and I don't know how to bi-locate in this body yet.

If you have a 2006 NCOS membership book send Carol Allen an email and see
what you can see. I don't think she will require much kissing, but what do
I know. Despite Carol's association with it, I think it is sponsored by
richmondorchidalliance.com

"Pat Brennan" wrote in message
...
I remember Merritt lobbying to disband the EOC saying there was just no
future in these type of events. Seems about right that now one of these
type of events bearing his name would have fixed price tables.

As for the numbers, they look very good for me. Maybe if I figure out the
right people to kiss up to I might score an invite for next year.


"al" wrote in message
news:Coo6h.8596$tb2.8255@trnddc08...
At the recent Merritt Huntington Symposium in Virginia Beach last
weekend, they sold table space at $200 a table. The tables are like 2 x
6 feet. They had seven vendors that each purchased between two and four
tables. They had an attendance of 55 people over the two day symposium,
even though 110 had registered. That kind of success should weed out
just about all the vendors from next year's symposium...

What are the issues?
 

Pat: Thanks for the info. Around here, the second type of show you mention
simply would not work. Or at least, no professional grower would
participate. They might be able to fill it with backyard growers.
Professional growers already have sales tax accounts, credit card
processors, etc., etc. [that we already pay for, every month]. And I, at
least, have my own culture sheets to hand out -- the ones from AOS are not
real accurate for the So. Fla. environment, so I'd rather any purchasers use
mine.

At the better OS shows, we do still have member volunteers asking to help us
with set-up and break-down. These offers are much appreciated (sometimes I
get stuck or stranded), but I prefer to bring my own help, when at all
possible, even tho I have to pay for it -- the OS volunteers, despite their
best intentions, tend to do as much damage as good. At my last OS show, I
just barely managed to keep some of my equipment from being broken by one of
those eager volunteers ... No way I'd let them handle the $$. And even if I
relented on that, 20% would definitely _not_ work. I don't have enough
margin in the plants to pay that kind of commission, and I can't raise
prices to cover it (as you've mentioned), because the plants just won't sell
at prices raised to cover that.

I do understand the risk/reward aspect. Even tried it once or twice, years
back. Never again. I agree with you that it SHOULD give the show sponsor
an incentive to advertise, etc., but it has never seemed to work out that
way, down here. Hope that your luck with it continues. Kenni


"Pat Brennan" wrote in message
...

Around here we have two types of shows. The first is much like yours in
that the society sells sales tables. The cost of tables at these shows
have risen like every thing else over the years.

In the Mid Atlantic area we also have a second type of show, the
commission show. They are part of the legacy left by Merit Huntington.
Instead of vendors taking money, the society runs a central checkout. The
society collects money, handles sales tax, processes credit cards, packs
the purchases, and provides culture info (thus the booklet Al was talking
about for the DC show). Instead of receiving a fixed table fee, the
society takes a percent of the sales (20% in most cases). These shows are
cool in that a society's financial success in not measured by the number
of tables they sell and the amount they charged for them, instead the
society's financial success is measured by how successful the show was for
its vendors. The society is directly rewarded for advertising the show
and getting out the people.

What are the issues?
 

I've been following this thread with great interest, but I haven't chimed in
yet. Here goes.

This I can tell you all: our society is constantly looking for ways to
increase attendance, and it's not all self serving. We recognize that if the
Vendors don't do well, they won't want to return. As it stands, we have a
waiting list of Vendors who wish to participate.

Last year we did some market research at the entry desk to determine which
of our advertising efforts were most successful, and we will use that to
better focus our ad dollars. For this coming year, we intend to offer some
incentives to other societies, in the form of free admission to groups, for
example. This will not increase our net gate, naturally, but it should be of
value to our Vendors. Hopefully, we will recoup a few $$$ due to increased
raffle sales. In any event, more foot traffic is good for everyone in the
long run.

As Kenni knows, we charge a flat fee for a fairly substantial booth set up.
Our flat fee is in keeping with the surrounding societies (including some
which have far more limited facility space), and in fact we were lower for a
good while. That doesn't mean that our own costs have stayed static. They
have not. We try to make things a bit easier for our Vendors by providing a
paid cleaning crew after the show breaks down. For the next show, we want to
provide light refreshments on the show floor during set up. We can't do
alcohol due to venue regulations that would make it prohibitively costly.

Bottom line: we know our Vendors work hard for their money, and we value
them greatly. As to displays, we have found through informal surveys that
they bring people in. Once in, they become potential purchasers. And it is
rare when I see someone leave our shows empty handed.

Just my two cents.

Diana

"Kenni Judd" wrote in message
...
Pat: Thanks for the info. Around here, the second type of show you
mention simply would not work. Or at least, no professional grower would
participate. They might be able to fill it with backyard growers.
Professional growers already have sales tax accounts, credit card
processors, etc., etc. [that we already pay for, every month]. And I, at
least, have my own culture sheets to hand out -- the ones from AOS are
not real accurate for the So. Fla. environment, so I'd rather any
purchasers use mine.

At the better OS shows, we do still have member volunteers asking to help
us with set-up and break-down. These offers are much appreciated
(sometimes I get stuck or stranded), but I prefer to bring my own help,
when at all possible, even tho I have to pay for it -- the OS volunteers,
despite their best intentions, tend to do as much damage as good. At my
last OS show, I just barely managed to keep some of my equipment from
being broken by one of those eager volunteers ... No way I'd let them
handle the $$. And even if I relented on that, 20% would definitely _not_
work. I don't have enough margin in the plants to pay that kind of
commission, and I can't raise prices to cover it (as you've mentioned),
because the plants just won't sell at prices raised to cover that.

I do understand the risk/reward aspect. Even tried it once or twice,
years back. Never again. I agree with you that it SHOULD give the show
sponsor an incentive to advertise, etc., but it has never seemed to work
out that way, down here. Hope that your luck with it continues. Kenni


"Pat Brennan" wrote in message
...

Around here we have two types of shows. The first is much like yours in
that the society sells sales tables. The cost of tables at these shows
have risen like every thing else over the years.

In the Mid Atlantic area we also have a second type of show, the
commission show. They are part of the legacy left by Merit Huntington.
Instead of vendors taking money, the society runs a central checkout.
The society collects money, handles sales tax, processes credit cards,
packs the purchases, and provides culture info (thus the booklet Al was
talking about for the DC show). Instead of receiving a fixed table fee,
the society takes a percent of the sales (20% in most cases). These
shows are cool in that a society's financial success in not measured by
the number of tables they sell and the amount they charged for them,
instead the society's financial success is measured by how successful the
show was for its vendors. The society is directly rewarded for
advertising the show and getting out the people.

What are the issues?
 

Diana, I have always said that your show is good, and messages like this are
what proves it. Also why it's one of the 3 OS shows I continue to do. PSL
is not one of them, but too many OS shows skimp on advertising, and/or keep
doing what they did 20 years ago and fail to monitor it, and then blame
their growers for low turn-out.

I'm not sure what you mean by free admission for groups, but if you're
talking busses from other OS, admission does need to be included in the
ticket price, otherwise customers get upset. (They already paid for the bus,
possibly a meal, etc., and then someone wants more $$ for admission???
Doesn't sit well) That doesn't mean your OS needs to eat the cost. If your
OS is arranging the bus, you can easily fold it into the ticket price (with
a conspicuous $1 or $2 discount right on the bill or ticket). If the other
OS is arranging the bus, that gets more complicated, but still doable.
Carpools, well, that gets way more complicated.

I could bring the alcohol for set-up, and keep it outside in the van, if you
send me some pre-orders so I know what to bring. Although it would be even
more welcome at breakdown G. Kenni

"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message
...
I've been following this thread with great interest, but I haven't chimed
in yet. Here goes.

This I can tell you all: our society is constantly looking for ways to
increase attendance, and it's not all self serving. We recognize that if
the Vendors don't do well, they won't want to return. As it stands, we
have a waiting list of Vendors who wish to participate.

Last year we did some market research at the entry desk to determine which
of our advertising efforts were most successful, and we will use that to
better focus our ad dollars. For this coming year, we intend to offer some
incentives to other societies, in the form of free admission to groups,
for example. This will not increase our net gate, naturally, but it should
be of value to our Vendors. Hopefully, we will recoup a few $$$ due to
increased raffle sales. In any event, more foot traffic is good for
everyone in the long run.

As Kenni knows, we charge a flat fee for a fairly substantial booth set
up. Our flat fee is in keeping with the surrounding societies (including
some which have far more limited facility space), and in fact we were
lower for a good while. That doesn't mean that our own costs have stayed
static. They have not. We try to make things a bit easier for our Vendors
by providing a paid cleaning crew after the show breaks down. For the next
show, we want to provide light refreshments on the show floor during set
up. We can't do alcohol due to venue regulations that would make it
prohibitively costly.

Bottom line: we know our Vendors work hard for their money, and we value
them greatly. As to displays, we have found through informal surveys that
they bring people in. Once in, they become potential purchasers. And it is
rare when I see someone leave our shows empty handed.

Just my two cents.

Diana

What are the issues?
 

Diana Kulaga wrote:
I've been following this thread with great interest, but I haven't chimed in
yet. Here goes.

This I can tell you all: our society is constantly looking for ways to
increase attendance, and it's not all self serving. We recognize that if the
Vendors don't do well, they won't want to return. As it stands, we have a
waiting list of Vendors who wish to participate.


Where do you have your shows? The first show I went to was an
accident. The newspaper gave the wrong date and I thought I missed it.
On the way back from shopping I saw a banner outside the Senior Center
and stopped for it. I don't think they charged admission at that time.


I have since attended shows at Botanical Gardens in Birmingham and St
Louis, in malls in Gautier, MS, Chatanooga TN, and Louisville, KY. The
botanical gardens both charged admission, but it was discounted if you
intended to just see the orchid show. The society in Huntsville, AL,
couldn't get any of the malls in the area. I don't recall if it was
because of the price or the mall's refusal because of insurance
liability. They had the first I attended at the Senior Center, then
later years in an area motel's conference rooms.

The malls had the most viewers and was probably best for the venders
just because of normal mall traffic. The botanical gardens were also
busy. The cubby hole shows, such as the motel conference rooms, really
needed a lot of advertising and support. As stated before, if I had
not seen a banner "Orchid Show Today", on a road I drove frequently, I
would have missed it altogether.

Nancy

What are the issues?
 

We are talking about buses from other areas, but I'm not going to get
involved in doing that. IMO, it has to be handled at the local society
level. And yes, we will absorb the admission fee, but what of it? We are
talking about getting people through the door who most likely would not
otherwise have come. So, it's good for the Vendors and maybe we get a kick
for the raffle. We need to discuss how to handle car pooling. Martin Motes
offers free admish for groups of ten or more (at the Miami International
Festival, not the Miami Show) plus a $5.00 coupon good at any Vendor's
booth. We won't be offering the coupons-too costly.

Thanks for offering to tend bar! The Community Center rules call for
expensive insurance and a hired cop for any event that has booze. OTOH, if
it's breakfast, who's to know what's in your OJ or V8 juice? G

Diana


"Kenni Judd" wrote in message
...
Diana, I have always said that your show is good, and messages like this
are
what proves it. Also why it's one of the 3 OS shows I continue to do.
PSL
is not one of them, but too many OS shows skimp on advertising, and/or
keep
doing what they did 20 years ago and fail to monitor it, and then blame
their growers for low turn-out.

I'm not sure what you mean by free admission for groups, but if you're
talking busses from other OS, admission does need to be included in the
ticket price, otherwise customers get upset. (They already paid for the
bus,
possibly a meal, etc., and then someone wants more $$ for admission???
Doesn't sit well) That doesn't mean your OS needs to eat the cost. If
your
OS is arranging the bus, you can easily fold it into the ticket price
(with
a conspicuous $1 or $2 discount right on the bill or ticket). If the
other
OS is arranging the bus, that gets more complicated, but still doable.
Carpools, well, that gets way more complicated.

I could bring the alcohol for set-up, and keep it outside in the van, if
you
send me some pre-orders so I know what to bring. Although it would be
even
more welcome at breakdown G. Kenni

"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message
...
I've been following this thread with great interest, but I haven't chimed
in yet. Here goes.

This I can tell you all: our society is constantly looking for ways to
increase attendance, and it's not all self serving. We recognize that if
the Vendors don't do well, they won't want to return. As it stands, we
have a waiting list of Vendors who wish to participate.

Last year we did some market research at the entry desk to determine
which
of our advertising efforts were most successful, and we will use that to
better focus our ad dollars. For this coming year, we intend to offer
some
incentives to other societies, in the form of free admission to groups,
for example. This will not increase our net gate, naturally, but it
should
be of value to our Vendors. Hopefully, we will recoup a few $$$ due to
increased raffle sales. In any event, more foot traffic is good for
everyone in the long run.

As Kenni knows, we charge a flat fee for a fairly substantial booth set
up. Our flat fee is in keeping with the surrounding societies (including
some which have far more limited facility space), and in fact we were
lower for a good while. That doesn't mean that our own costs have stayed
static. They have not. We try to make things a bit easier for our Vendors
by providing a paid cleaning crew after the show breaks down. For the
next
show, we want to provide light refreshments on the show floor during set
up. We can't do alcohol due to venue regulations that would make it
prohibitively costly.

Bottom line: we know our Vendors work hard for their money, and we value
them greatly. As to displays, we have found through informal surveys that
they bring people in. Once in, they become potential purchasers. And it
is
rare when I see someone leave our shows empty handed.

Just my two cents.

Diana

What are the issues?
 

We have our shows at the city Community Center. Right now, it's the only
venue large enough to accomodate us and the parking is pretty good. The
building has an electronic sign that advertises the show for a week in
advance, which is a nice supplement to our paid ads. And, like you, some
folks do find us by accident, though most intend to come.

Scripps Newspapers now has a function called www.yourhub.com. I don't know
if it is available everywhere, but we have made good use of it, and it's
free. Free is good, LOL!

As far as the mall shows go, you'd have to ask a Vendor how they do at them,
but I know that they are a nightmare for the judges. I have heard from a
few Vendors who have lost plants during shows like that; it has to be tough
to monitor all sides at once, and malls are Mecca to shoplifters. Of course,
people can steal at any venue, and I know of instances where it has happened
to individuals. Still, the displays are really unprotected in malls, subject
to everything from thieves to little kids. Just to add some more to the mix,
at a well run show, it shouldn't matter where a Vendor's booth is, but in a
mall someone really could be left out in the cold, at the end of the line,
for example. Shoppers get weary in malls, and start thinking about walking
all the way back to the entrance nearest their cars. Maybe it's just me. I
guess I'm a traitor to the female cause, because I *really* don't like
shopping, especially for clothes for myself. Yuck.

The problem with Botanical Gardens, as I see it, is weather. On a good day
it's great. If it rains, everyone is screwed.

Diana


"Nancy G." wrote in message
ups.com...

Diana Kulaga wrote:
I've been following this thread with great interest, but I haven't chimed
in
yet. Here goes.

This I can tell you all: our society is constantly looking for ways to
increase attendance, and it's not all self serving. We recognize that if
the
Vendors don't do well, they won't want to return. As it stands, we have a
waiting list of Vendors who wish to participate.


Where do you have your shows? The first show I went to was an
accident. The newspaper gave the wrong date and I thought I missed it.
On the way back from shopping I saw a banner outside the Senior Center
and stopped for it. I don't think they charged admission at that time.


I have since attended shows at Botanical Gardens in Birmingham and St
Louis, in malls in Gautier, MS, Chatanooga TN, and Louisville, KY. The
botanical gardens both charged admission, but it was discounted if you
intended to just see the orchid show. The society in Huntsville, AL,
couldn't get any of the malls in the area. I don't recall if it was
because of the price or the mall's refusal because of insurance
liability. They had the first I attended at the Senior Center, then
later years in an area motel's conference rooms.

The malls had the most viewers and was probably best for the venders
just because of normal mall traffic. The botanical gardens were also
busy. The cubby hole shows, such as the motel conference rooms, really
needed a lot of advertising and support. As stated before, if I had
not seen a banner "Orchid Show Today", on a road I drove frequently, I
would have missed it altogether.

Nancy

What are the issues?
 

Diana, your show is very fortunate to have that facility, my vote (if I have
one) is that you should hang on to it forever. Moving a successful show is
always costly, for both the sponsor and the growers, and sometimes fatal.
Some of your neighbors have been less fortunate -- Hurricanes Frances and
Jeanne did away with the Civic Center that FPOS used to use, TOS lost its
twice-yearly venue to a Lexus dealer ...

Most malls are nightmares, period. Besides all the problems that Diana
mentions, the hours are hellish. Booths have to be staffed the whole time
the mall is open (average 13 hours/day, around here), and setup has to be
done while the mall is closed (breakdown, too, but that's usually a smaller
problem because most malls have shorter hours on Sundays) -- as in after 10
pm the night before the show. If displays are involved, then that's an
all-nighter.

It's also not uncommon to contract with a mall, months in advance, and then
walk in at setup time to find a car, or some other special display,
occupying the space that was planned for the raffle table, or one of the
vendor's booths or exhibits, or whatever --even though the person in charge
checked in with the mall the week or two, or even the day or two, before to
make sure of the final arrangements. And there's no recourse (read the fine
print in one of those contracts).

Good growing to all, Kenni



"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message
...
We have our shows at the city Community Center. Right now, it's the only
venue large enough to accomodate us and the parking is pretty good. The
building has an electronic sign that advertises the show for a week in
advance, which is a nice supplement to our paid ads. And, like you, some
folks do find us by accident, though most intend to come.

Scripps Newspapers now has a function called www.yourhub.com. I don't know
if it is available everywhere, but we have made good use of it, and it's
free. Free is good, LOL!

As far as the mall shows go, you'd have to ask a Vendor how they do at
them, but I know that they are a nightmare for the judges. I have heard
from a few Vendors who have lost plants during shows like that; it has to
be tough to monitor all sides at once, and malls are Mecca to shoplifters.
Of course, people can steal at any venue, and I know of instances where it
has happened to individuals. Still, the displays are really unprotected in
malls, subject to everything from thieves to little kids. Just to add some
more to the mix, at a well run show, it shouldn't matter where a Vendor's
booth is, but in a mall someone really could be left out in the cold, at
the end of the line, for example. Shoppers get weary in malls, and start
thinking about walking all the way back to the entrance nearest their
cars. Maybe it's just me. I guess I'm a traitor to the female cause,
because I *really* don't like shopping, especially for clothes for myself.
Yuck.

The problem with Botanical Gardens, as I see it, is weather. On a good day
it's great. If it rains, everyone is screwed.

Diana

What are the issues?
 

And VBOS lost their venue and some members, too, including the folks who
used to run things. My understanding is that the old guard simply rode off
into the sunshine without so much as a Howdy Ma'am, and left the new people
without needed resources. They are rebounding nicely, and we hope that
continues. When one society in an area is strong, we are all stronger for
it.

Diana

"Kenni Judd" wrote in message
...
Diana, your show is very fortunate to have that facility, my vote (if I
have one) is that you should hang on to it forever. Moving a successful
show is always costly, for both the sponsor and the growers, and sometimes
fatal. Some of your neighbors have been less fortunate -- Hurricanes
Frances and Jeanne did away with the Civic Center that FPOS used to use,
TOS lost its twice-yearly venue to a Lexus dealer ...

Most malls are nightmares, period. Besides all the problems that Diana
mentions, the hours are hellish. Booths have to be staffed the whole time
the mall is open (average 13 hours/day, around here), and setup has to be
done while the mall is closed (breakdown, too, but that's usually a
smaller problem because most malls have shorter hours on Sundays) -- as in
after 10 pm the night before the show. If displays are involved, then
that's an all-nighter.

It's also not uncommon to contract with a mall, months in advance, and
then walk in at setup time to find a car, or some other special display,
occupying the space that was planned for the raffle table, or one of the
vendor's booths or exhibits, or whatever --even though the person in
charge checked in with the mall the week or two, or even the day or two,
before to make sure of the final arrangements. And there's no recourse
(read the fine print in one of those contracts).

Good growing to all, Kenni



"Diana Kulaga" wrote in message
...
We have our shows at the city Community Center. Right now, it's the only
venue large enough to accomodate us and the parking is pretty good. The
building has an electronic sign that advertises the show for a week in
advance, which is a nice supplement to our paid ads. And, like you, some
folks do find us by accident, though most intend to come.

Scripps Newspapers now has a function called www.yourhub.com. I don't
know if it is available everywhere, but we have made good use of it, and
it's free. Free is good, LOL!

As far as the mall shows go, you'd have to ask a Vendor how they do at
them, but I know that they are a nightmare for the judges. I have heard
from a few Vendors who have lost plants during shows like that; it has to
be tough to monitor all sides at once, and malls are Mecca to
shoplifters. Of course, people can steal at any venue, and I know of
instances where it has happened to individuals. Still, the displays are
really unprotected in malls, subject to everything from thieves to little
kids. Just to add some more to the mix, at a well run show, it shouldn't
matter where a Vendor's booth is, but in a mall someone really could be
left out in the cold, at the end of the line, for example. Shoppers get
weary in malls, and start thinking about walking all the way back to the
entrance nearest their cars. Maybe it's just me. I guess I'm a traitor to
the female cause, because I *really* don't like shopping, especially for
clothes for myself. Yuck.

The problem with Botanical Gardens, as I see it, is weather. On a good
day it's great. If it rains, everyone is screwed.

Diana

What are the issues?
 

On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 18:11:55 -0500 in Kenni Judd wrote:
It's also not uncommon to contract with a mall, months in advance, and then
walk in at setup time to find a car, or some other special display,
occupying the space that was planned for the raffle table, or one of the
vendor's booths or exhibits, or whatever --even though the person in charge
checked in with the mall the week or two, or even the day or two, before to
make sure of the final arrangements. And there's no recourse (read the fine
print in one of those contracts).

Well, there's always the recourse of using a maul payphone to call in that
the display vehicle "looks suspicious" and let LEO do their damage...
Wait until after the show is done and ya'll can pretty much guarantee that
the car shows positive on nitrates :-).

--
Chris Dukes, Practicing his inner (and outer) curmudgeon.
elfick willg: you can't use dell to beat people, it wouldn't stand up
to the strain... much like attacking a tank with a wiffle bat

What are the issues?
 

On Thu, 16 Nov 2006 14:35:32 -0500, "Diana Kulaga"
wrote:

Thanks for offering to tend bar! The Community Center rules call for
expensive insurance and a hired cop for any event that has booze. OTOH, if
it's breakfast, who's to know what's in your OJ or V8 juice? G

Diana

How early do I need to be there for Breakfast?
SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/orchids