K Barrett wrote:
Just saying let's all be friends doesn't raise the awareness of the issues
for the newbies, now does it?

It's a bummer. I read the thread "Is there money in orchids" and made
no comment. As I see it, here are some of the issues.

1. Utility costs have quadrupled in the last 2 years.
2. Taxes have doubled.
3. Water quality. Most areas the water is treated before application
to the orchids, some areas it is tested and treated again before being
allowed to be removed
4. Chemicals. Insecticides, fungicides, fertilizer, hormones, and
supplements
5. Lighting. Natural, supplemented, or artificially supplied. There
is the cost of the fixture, replacement bulbs, expense of operation,
type, spectrum, and meters to test all of the above.
6. Hardgoods. Pots, mounts, medium, clips, stakes, blades, hangers,
etc the list is endless and it all adds to the cost or price.
7 Space and equipment. I've allowed about 1 square foot for a mature
catlleya, I can go vertical, but have to protect against overspray and
drips.
8. Time. Inspection, watering, transplanting/dividing. That's just
time spent with the orchids. If I hire locally there is training.
9. Environment. I like miltonias, but have left them alone, have
mostly intermediate to warm growing, low altitude orchids.
10. Breeding. Eventually want to make my own cross, but then there is
time and uncertainty. However we all recognize the Krull-Smith,
Hauserman, Orchidview, Mendenhall/Oconee, Carmela, and Baldan to name a
few. Those are some of the "big guns", it doesn't mean there aren't
others trying it on their scale that haven't been recognized yet.
There is a bit of "Walter Mitty" in all of us.
11. Promotion, exhibition, control. I saw an online ad for a
"recently awarded" orchid for sale, $30,000. They weren't selling
divisions, they were selling rights to mass produce, before a leaf,
root, or stem got hijacked.
12. Marketability. Obscure species are interesting. Most sales
however aren't for orchids that you need to have magnification to see
or smell like road kill.

I know, I've left out a bunch of stuff. But it is a start. What are
some of the other issues?

Nancy

I know that some things have been left out of this lift.

You've left out pressures from government subsidized foreign trade.
Companies in other countries can bring fully grown flowering sized plants to
US markets for pennies on the dollar. It used to be that these companies
would import flasks to the USA, and a second level of industry here would
raise these plants to flowering size and market them. Takes a lot of time,
supplies and man hours to pot and repot these seedlings to flowering size.
Now foriegn companies don't have to waste the time and trouble to own
businesses in the USA (putting US workers/suppliers out of work) they can
bring in already potted orchids for sale. The US has to deal with any
imported pests (which the foriegn countries say doesn't happen, but which I
believe remains to be seen. When did you ever see a pest free port?) US
companies can't compete because 1) they aren't subsidized, they actually
have to turn a profit and 2) they have to pay a living wage in the US.

At one point in time an rgo Florida vendor mentioned a company in Florida
was selling Phalaenopsis orchids with 2 spikesfor $6. Two spikes. 6 bucks.
Boy that's cheap! And they still make a profit on that $6.

So what's a vendor to do? Go out of business? Get real small? How small
can you get? Especially considering all your points listed below?

So what's a hobbyist to do if they want something other than a boxstore
orchid? Create their own hybrids, trade 'em with their friends? Drive for
miles to get to the few shows in their areas that sell something other than
boxstore orchids? (SBOE, Redlands, Chicago)

So where's a vendor or a hobbyists going to get their supplies to repot all
their orchids every other year? Shipping and handling on bark is costly!
Join a club and share the costs of a pallet of bark?

You mentioned water quality. There was a vendor down in the San Diego area
who went out of business because California enacted legislation that every
business had to control the purity of the runoff from their property. They
didn't want a bunch of phosphates etc clogging up the streams, rivers, bays
etc. So water from your fields have to be at a standard before it can be
released into streams. He couldn't do that, he was a small operation and to
comply was onerous, so decided to close down. I believe he only sells pots
now. I believe these laws were enacted to keep stores with their huge
parking lots from dumping oil soaked runoff into storm drains, but there you
are, an unforseen consequence.

Do you rememebr several years ago the Chinese shot down one of our spyplanes
and held the crew 'hostage' until they stripped any advanced electronics out
of the plane. Then they let the crew go. I remember a picture of one of
the airmen who stepped off the plane back in the USA wearing a T-shirt
captioned 'I was held hostage by a WalMart supplier'.

But I digress.

All we can agree upon is that its a mess.

K Barrett


"Nancy G." wrote in message
oups.com...
K Barrett wrote:
Just saying let's all be friends doesn't raise the awareness of the
issues
for the newbies, now does it?

It's a bummer. I read the thread "Is there money in orchids" and made
no comment. As I see it, here are some of the issues.

1. Utility costs have quadrupled in the last 2 years.
2. Taxes have doubled.
3. Water quality. Most areas the water is treated before application
to the orchids, some areas it is tested and treated again before being
allowed to be removed
4. Chemicals. Insecticides, fungicides, fertilizer, hormones, and
supplements
5. Lighting. Natural, supplemented, or artificially supplied. There
is the cost of the fixture, replacement bulbs, expense of operation,
type, spectrum, and meters to test all of the above.
6. Hardgoods. Pots, mounts, medium, clips, stakes, blades, hangers,
etc the list is endless and it all adds to the cost or price.
7 Space and equipment. I've allowed about 1 square foot for a mature
catlleya, I can go vertical, but have to protect against overspray and
drips.
8. Time. Inspection, watering, transplanting/dividing. That's just
time spent with the orchids. If I hire locally there is training.
9. Environment. I like miltonias, but have left them alone, have
mostly intermediate to warm growing, low altitude orchids.
10. Breeding. Eventually want to make my own cross, but then there is
time and uncertainty. However we all recognize the Krull-Smith,
Hauserman, Orchidview, Mendenhall/Oconee, Carmela, and Baldan to name a
few. Those are some of the "big guns", it doesn't mean there aren't
others trying it on their scale that haven't been recognized yet.
There is a bit of "Walter Mitty" in all of us.
11. Promotion, exhibition, control. I saw an online ad for a
"recently awarded" orchid for sale, $30,000. They weren't selling
divisions, they were selling rights to mass produce, before a leaf,
root, or stem got hijacked.
12. Marketability. Obscure species are interesting. Most sales
however aren't for orchids that you need to have magnification to see
or smell like road kill.

I know, I've left out a bunch of stuff. But it is a start. What are
some of the other issues?

Nancy

I know that some things have been left out of this lift.

Nancy and Kathy,

Both of your letters are interesting and thought-stimulating.

Mick

Fuel/transportation costs have tripled or quadrupled in recent years. Even
when you start with flasks, compots or seedlings, they have to come from
somewhere. For shows or other off-site events, yet more transportation.

Interest rates, also doubled in the last few years.

Kenni


"Nancy G." wrote in message
oups.com...

It's a bummer. I read the thread "Is there money in orchids" and made
no comment. As I see it, here are some of the issues.

1. Utility costs have quadrupled in the last 2 years.
2. Taxes have doubled.
3. Water quality. Most areas the water is treated before application
to the orchids, some areas it is tested and treated again before being
allowed to be removed
4. Chemicals. Insecticides, fungicides, fertilizer, hormones, and
supplements
5. Lighting. Natural, supplemented, or artificially supplied. There
is the cost of the fixture, replacement bulbs, expense of operation,
type, spectrum, and meters to test all of the above.
6. Hardgoods. Pots, mounts, medium, clips, stakes, blades, hangers,
etc the list is endless and it all adds to the cost or price.
7 Space and equipment. I've allowed about 1 square foot for a mature
catlleya, I can go vertical, but have to protect against overspray and
drips.
8. Time. Inspection, watering, transplanting/dividing. That's just
time spent with the orchids. If I hire locally there is training.
9. Environment. I like miltonias, but have left them alone, have
mostly intermediate to warm growing, low altitude orchids.
10. Breeding. Eventually want to make my own cross, but then there is
time and uncertainty. However we all recognize the Krull-Smith,
Hauserman, Orchidview, Mendenhall/Oconee, Carmela, and Baldan to name a
few. Those are some of the "big guns", it doesn't mean there aren't
others trying it on their scale that haven't been recognized yet.
There is a bit of "Walter Mitty" in all of us.
11. Promotion, exhibition, control. I saw an online ad for a
"recently awarded" orchid for sale, $30,000. They weren't selling
divisions, they were selling rights to mass produce, before a leaf,
root, or stem got hijacked.
12. Marketability. Obscure species are interesting. Most sales
however aren't for orchids that you need to have magnification to see
or smell like road kill.

I know, I've left out a bunch of stuff. But it is a start. What are
some of the other issues?

Nancy

I know that some things have been left out of this lift.

Mick Fournier wrote:
Nancy and Kathy,

Both of your letters are interesting and thought-stimulating.

Mick

Somehow Mick I expected more out of you. Of course, it was either very
early or late when you posted. Don't go out of orchids because of this
discussion, at least not before I feel confident enough to buy a flask
or two.

Some of this may start to sound pretty abstract, so bear with me.

Can you grow multi tier? Not necessarily orchids or even plants.
What about small caged animals that would fit under the enches.
Earthworms, exotic (decorative) poultry, finches, canaries, parrots,
rabbits, cavies, mice, rats, lambs, kids (baby goats), reptiles,
amphibians, tarantulas, etc. All would contribute carbon dioxide, some
that require no additional heat could help raise the temperature by
occupying a trermal layer that we ordinarily avoid using. Properly
designed and maintained, there are by-products that can be recycled
back to the orchids or marketed and sold. Commercially available
"composted steer manure" sells for 4 cents a pound in a 40# bag.

For the squeamish, mushrooms or medicinal herbs (not that kind, don't
want anyone breaking into your space).

Are grants available, do some homework. What does it take to qualify?
Sheltered workshops were extensive in my area. That may not be the
answer, but in the past grants and tax breaks were available to
employers. It will add expenses. Payroll, book keeping,
justification, etc. They may require more expansive supervision to
keep their environment safe, limited use of chemicals, dangerous
equipment, etc. Most of the work is mind numbing and repetitive,
watering, transplanting, cleaning, packing and more. That's assuming a
mental handicap, unfair and limiting, but what most people conjure in
their mind. Are other qualifying individuals available? People to do
more critical work or "help drive the bus". Unfair question, but if
you wanted to expand your operation, would you hire a deaf/mute,
paraplegic, burn victim, someone in recovery, or parolee? I know
that's another can of worms, and Ray will probably say I'm being naive.
He'll be right, too.

What about training programs? Is there a local 4-H, FFA, agricultural
extension? Could you offer a fee based seminar or small class? Charge
them to learn how to transplant and care for their beginner orchid,
have some plants, books, and products available for sale at the same
time.

Do you advertise? Possibly there would be more local buyers if they
knew you existed. Cheat. Wear an orchid corsage to an event you are
going to attend anyway, deliver a plant or arrangement to a friends
workplace, church, wedding, or funeral. Leave a CONSPICUOUS card on
the gift. Don't make it too elaborate or expensive. The first may be
gratis, but have ongoing benefits. Maybe a table top display in a
business. Most won't let you set prices there, but people would see
your name and possibly your web address. Post your hours, prices,
point of contact there.

Before you build or expand, evaluate the greenhouse or your potential
growing area. Most are grotesquely inefficient. Wasted space, energy,
and resources. Would a better design or location give you a more
competive edge. I've been reading a solar greenhouse book and have
some articles on energy saving features. Sure the book was published
in the 70's, but is still an area that is sumarily ignored.
Orientation, angle, materials, thermal mass, glazing, insulation,
reflectivity. In a northern or midwest climate a better plan could
save the cost of modification in one season of heating. Some features
are tax deductible, expand. Would you be able to look at old mines
where 8 lights = 1 heater. How about underground parking, former
warehouses, the basements of apartment complexes?

Maybe the AOS should change its name to the AOG, Inc. "American Orchid
Growers, Inc." If it sounded more like a business than a good old boys
club it would get more respect. Little better actually than a local
garden club. Images of high tea, flowered dresses, and frumpy hats.
It started as a society for the idle rich. Orchids probably have a
luxery tax that no one knows about, too. If it doesn't, someone
somewhere is plotting to impose one.

So much for now, just some ideas I've been kicking around. Yes I'm
aware there is a big difference between "in theory" and "in practice".

Nancy

K: That could work -- if they have a LOT of friends also interested in
orchids, or do their own lab work. I've been thru 2 labs which couldn't
deliver any product (claimed that everything either didn't germinate or
contaminated). The 3d lab is producing almost every pod I send (no reports
of contamination, only one report of "no germination"), but has a minimum
order of 1000 seedlings ... That's a lot of plants, so I need to be very
confident before I send one. Kenni

"K Barrett" wrote in message
. ..So what's a hobbyist to
do if they want something other than a boxstore
orchid? Create their own hybrids, trade 'em with their friends? Drive for
miles to get to the few shows in their areas that sell something other than
boxstore orchids? (SBOE, Redlands, Chicago)

FWIW, this has happened to me too with stem props. I have heard many people
make the same statements. I have decided it is best to deal only with
companies who will refund the set up fees if EVERYTHING turns out to get
contaminated. I mean, honestly, *I* can do stem props with less than 100%
contamination on 20 stems, if I only had the time. And if the best a
company can do is tell me to wipe them with Physan BEFORE I FedEx more stems
next time, I can do with out their EXPERTISE. How can you even tell if they
did anything but charge a credit card and report failure several weeks
later?

"Kenni Judd" wrote in message
...
K: That could work -- if they have a LOT of friends also interested in
orchids, or do their own lab work. I've been thru 2 labs which couldn't
deliver any product (claimed that everything either didn't germinate or
contaminated). The 3d lab is producing almost every pod I send (no
reports of contamination, only one report of "no germination"), but has a
minimum order of 1000 seedlings ... That's a lot of plants, so I need to
be very confident before I send one. Kenni

"K Barrett" wrote in message
. ..So what's a hobbyist
to do if they want something other than a boxstore
orchid? Create their own hybrids, trade 'em with their friends? Drive
for
miles to get to the few shows in their areas that sell something other
than
boxstore orchids? (SBOE, Redlands, Chicago)

Al: Altho I think stem props are a slightly different issue, compared to
seed pods, or even mericlones, I am pleased to report that the first 2 labs
got $0 of my money. The third lab, which is sending me progeny faster than
I can comfortably handle, invoices me only after shipping, so I also didn't
pay for the "no germination" pod that it reported. The first 2 labs didn't
get any $ from me, but they sure did mess up my long-term planning. [The 3d
lab also got back to me a lot faster, on the "no germination" pod, so I
could take it off my list of things to deal with.]

All of which begs the question of, what's a hobbyist to do with 1000 of a
particular clone or cross? That's a lot of plants for me to handle ...
Kenni




"al" wrote in message news:Q4t3h.958$244.476@trnddc01...
FWIW, this has happened to me too with stem props. I have heard many
people make the same statements. I have decided it is best to deal only
with companies who will refund the set up fees if EVERYTHING turns out to
get contaminated. I mean, honestly, *I* can do stem props with less than
100% contamination on 20 stems, if I only had the time. And if the best a
company can do is tell me to wipe them with Physan BEFORE I FedEx more
stems next time, I can do with out their EXPERTISE. How can you even tell
if they did anything but charge a credit card and report failure several
weeks later?

Nancy,

Yes, you have entered the abstract/esoteric realm of orchid growing. I
haven't let myself go past mesoteric much less exoteric (ref Gurdjieff). As
far as multi-tier growing I draw the line at anoles and snakes in my
greenhouse.

I will try and answer a few questions that seem applicable to my operation.
I don't advertise or leave little CONSPICUOUS notes on people's windshields
any more. I don't tell people where my greenhouse is and I don't let
customers onto the premises if they do find it. Mail order only is my rule
and I only want to talk to new customers that know my base regular clientele
(those who can vouch for this potential new customer as basically sane).
When orchid people from the "general public" (yuck) were on site I hated
listening to their endless orchid chatter about the same boring stuff over
and over plus they steal way too much when I turn my back... so no one gets
into the lab anymore except a few Germans from overseas when they fly into
Florida for a pick-up. Germans are the best orchid buyers in my book...
Chinese second, Hong Kongers are third, Japan tied for third, Vietnam
fourth. Aussies and Canadians will have to shoot me dead first before I
ever let them into the lab again. And Brits? Whoever heard of those
penny-pinching Brits buying orchids from Americans? Ha- ha... it will never
happen.

As far as subsidized training programs go, everyone I hire is registered
retard... I live in Florida, they're everywhere here like ants.

As far expanding the greenhouse goes I don't get too overly particular. I
concentrate on getting the water right and the shadecloth overhead
positioned right so as not to burn up the plants. If I build it the orchids
will come... like in the movie with Kevin Costner. If the orchids need a
special, environment controlled, super fancy greenhouse then I don't want
'em. Besides I sell flasks not plants. I am more concerned about my flask
store room.

If anyone from the government tries to impose a tax on orchids... then I say
we give them 3 "free" orchids. That'll fix their ass good.

I hope I have answered your questions good. I like helping new people get
off on the right foot when they're thinking about getting into this
business.

Now I am going to go shave to go to my real job... which ain't growing
orchids. I work at a real job where there is real money.

Mick

PS, The AOS name is OK as it is. I don't see a reason to change it.

=======================

"Nancy G." wrote in message
oups.com...
Mick Fournier wrote:
Nancy and Kathy,

Both of your letters are interesting and thought-stimulating.

Mick

Somehow Mick I expected more out of you. Of course, it was either very
early or late when you posted. Don't go out of orchids because of this
discussion, at least not before I feel confident enough to buy a flask
or two.

Some of this may start to sound pretty abstract, so bear with me.

Can you grow multi tier? Not necessarily orchids or even plants.
What about small caged animals that would fit under the enches.
Earthworms, exotic (decorative) poultry, finches, canaries, parrots,
rabbits, cavies, mice, rats, lambs, kids (baby goats), reptiles,
amphibians, tarantulas, etc. All would contribute carbon dioxide, some
that require no additional heat could help raise the temperature by
occupying a trermal layer that we ordinarily avoid using. Properly
designed and maintained, there are by-products that can be recycled
back to the orchids or marketed and sold. Commercially available
"composted steer manure" sells for 4 cents a pound in a 40# bag.

For the squeamish, mushrooms or medicinal herbs (not that kind, don't
want anyone breaking into your space).

Are grants available, do some homework. What does it take to qualify?
Sheltered workshops were extensive in my area. That may not be the
answer, but in the past grants and tax breaks were available to
employers. It will add expenses. Payroll, book keeping,
justification, etc. They may require more expansive supervision to
keep their environment safe, limited use of chemicals, dangerous
equipment, etc. Most of the work is mind numbing and repetitive,
watering, transplanting, cleaning, packing and more. That's assuming a
mental handicap, unfair and limiting, but what most people conjure in
their mind. Are other qualifying individuals available? People to do
more critical work or "help drive the bus". Unfair question, but if
you wanted to expand your operation, would you hire a deaf/mute,
paraplegic, burn victim, someone in recovery, or parolee? I know
that's another can of worms, and Ray will probably say I'm being naive.
He'll be right, too.

What about training programs? Is there a local 4-H, FFA, agricultural
extension? Could you offer a fee based seminar or small class? Charge
them to learn how to transplant and care for their beginner orchid,
have some plants, books, and products available for sale at the same
time.

Do you advertise? Possibly there would be more local buyers if they
knew you existed. Cheat. Wear an orchid corsage to an event you are
going to attend anyway, deliver a plant or arrangement to a friends
workplace, church, wedding, or funeral. Leave a CONSPICUOUS card on
the gift. Don't make it too elaborate or expensive. The first may be
gratis, but have ongoing benefits. Maybe a table top display in a
business. Most won't let you set prices there, but people would see
your name and possibly your web address. Post your hours, prices,
point of contact there.

Before you build or expand, evaluate the greenhouse or your potential
growing area. Most are grotesquely inefficient. Wasted space, energy,
and resources. Would a better design or location give you a more
competive edge. I've been reading a solar greenhouse book and have
some articles on energy saving features. Sure the book was published
in the 70's, but is still an area that is sumarily ignored.
Orientation, angle, materials, thermal mass, glazing, insulation,
reflectivity. In a northern or midwest climate a better plan could
save the cost of modification in one season of heating. Some features
are tax deductible, expand. Would you be able to look at old mines
where 8 lights = 1 heater. How about underground parking, former
warehouses, the basements of apartment complexes?

Maybe the AOS should change its name to the AOG, Inc. "American Orchid
Growers, Inc." If it sounded more like a business than a good old boys
club it would get more respect. Little better actually than a local
garden club. Images of high tea, flowered dresses, and frumpy hats.
It started as a society for the idle rich. Orchids probably have a
luxery tax that no one knows about, too. If it doesn't, someone
somewhere is plotting to impose one.

So much for now, just some ideas I've been kicking around. Yes I'm
aware there is a big difference between "in theory" and "in practice".

Nancy

On Sun, 5 Nov 2006 17:19:05 -0500, "Kenni Judd"
wrote:

All of which begs the question of, what's a hobbyist to do with 1000 of a
particular clone or cross? That's a lot of plants for me to handle ...
Kenni

The easy answer on that is that they will have a higher percentage die
off from compot stage to first bloom. So they see if they can e-bay a
flask or two, double their expected ability to handle plants and pitch
the rest. Cost of doing business is sometimes the unsellable gets
tossed even if you paid for it.
SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/orchids

On Sun, 5 Nov 2006 17:19:05 -0500 in Kenni Judd wrote:

All of which begs the question of, what's a hobbyist to do with 1000 of a
particular clone or cross? That's a lot of plants for me to handle ...

Get a bunch of crack vials and some snazzy packaging and sell them to
the local box store as "baby orchids" (See Reka's earlier post on the topic).
--
Chris Dukes
elfick willg: you can't use dell to beat people, it wouldn't stand up
to the strain... much like attacking a tank with a wiffle bat

First, let me apologize to the group, and thank you Mick for not over
reacting.
I got other private responses that said "been there, tried that, it
didn't work".

Subsequent markets would need to be developed and would probably be the
'cash crop" supporting the orchids. It would increase labor and
require intensive management. It would be a logistics nightmare.

In my area, most of the ideas I kicked around are implemented on a
rotaional basis on the season and market. Poults, harvest and sorting,
fallow or equipment storage, bedding plants, etc. A recurrent rotation
with a concurrent or dual application based on the season. An empty
structure has the same monthly payment as one utilized to its full
potential. Power failures have wiped out entire brooder operations or
crops of seedlings. Doesn't matter whether it's from heat and lost
ventilation or from cold and lost ventilation. It's a wasted season.

I also understand lab. Human nature is to touch , pick up, and look
at. In my case they may have damaged sensitive electronics or optical
equipment, or be injured by unexploded ordnance. Dust and static free
doesn't mix well with open house and tours. I resented the intrusion
and distraction. I have zero tolerance for thieves.

Again, sorry and thank you.

Nancy


Mick Fournier wrote:
Nancy,


Yes, you have entered the abstract/esoteric realm of orchid growing. I
haven't let myself go past mesoteric much less exoteric (ref Gurdjieff). As
far as multi-tier growing I draw the line at anoles and snakes in my
greenhouse.

I will try and answer a few questions that seem applicable to my operation.
I don't advertise or leave little CONSPICUOUS notes on people's windshields
any more. I don't tell people where my greenhouse is and I don't let
customers onto the premises if they do find it. Mail order only is my rule
and I only want to talk to new customers that know my base regular clientele
(those who can vouch for this potential new customer as basically sane).
When orchid people from the "general public" (yuck) were on site I hated
listening to their endless orchid chatter about the same boring stuff over
and over plus they steal way too much when I turn my back... so no one gets
into the lab anymore except a few Germans from overseas when they fly into
Florida for a pick-up. Germans are the best orchid buyers in my book...
Chinese second, Hong Kongers are third, Japan tied for third, Vietnam
fourth. Aussies and Canadians will have to shoot me dead first before I
ever let them into the lab again. And Brits? Whoever heard of those
penny-pinching Brits buying orchids from Americans? Ha- ha... it will never
happen.

As far as subsidized training programs go, everyone I hire is registered
retard... I live in Florida, they're everywhere here like ants.

As far expanding the greenhouse goes I don't get too overly particular. I
concentrate on getting the water right and the shadecloth overhead
positioned right so as not to burn up the plants. If I build it the orchids
will come... like in the movie with Kevin Costner. If the orchids need a
special, environment controlled, super fancy greenhouse then I don't want
'em. Besides I sell flasks not plants. I am more concerned about my flask
store room.

If anyone from the government tries to impose a tax on orchids... then I say
we give them 3 "free" orchids. That'll fix their ass good.

I hope I have answered your questions good. I like helping new people get
off on the right foot when they're thinking about getting into this
business.

Now I am going to go shave to go to my real job... which ain't growing
orchids. I work at a real job where there is real money.

Mick

PS, The AOS name is OK as it is. I don't see a reason to change it.

=======================

"Nancy G." wrote in message
oups.com...
Mick Fournier wrote:
Nancy and Kathy,

Both of your letters are interesting and thought-stimulating.

Mick

Somehow Mick I expected more out of you. Of course, it was either very
early or late when you posted. Don't go out of orchids because of this
discussion, at least not before I feel confident enough to buy a flask
or two.

Some of this may start to sound pretty abstract, so bear with me.

Can you grow multi tier? Not necessarily orchids or even plants.
What about small caged animals that would fit under the enches.
Earthworms, exotic (decorative) poultry, finches, canaries, parrots,
rabbits, cavies, mice, rats, lambs, kids (baby goats), reptiles,
amphibians, tarantulas, etc. All would contribute carbon dioxide, some
that require no additional heat could help raise the temperature by
occupying a trermal layer that we ordinarily avoid using. Properly
designed and maintained, there are by-products that can be recycled
back to the orchids or marketed and sold. Commercially available
"composted steer manure" sells for 4 cents a pound in a 40# bag.

For the squeamish, mushrooms or medicinal herbs (not that kind, don't
want anyone breaking into your space).

Are grants available, do some homework. What does it take to qualify?
Sheltered workshops were extensive in my area. That may not be the
answer, but in the past grants and tax breaks were available to
employers. It will add expenses. Payroll, book keeping,
justification, etc. They may require more expansive supervision to
keep their environment safe, limited use of chemicals, dangerous
equipment, etc. Most of the work is mind numbing and repetitive,
watering, transplanting, cleaning, packing and more. That's assuming a
mental handicap, unfair and limiting, but what most people conjure in
their mind. Are other qualifying individuals available? People to do
more critical work or "help drive the bus". Unfair question, but if
you wanted to expand your operation, would you hire a deaf/mute,
paraplegic, burn victim, someone in recovery, or parolee? I know
that's another can of worms, and Ray will probably say I'm being naive.
He'll be right, too.

What about training programs? Is there a local 4-H, FFA, agricultural
extension? Could you offer a fee based seminar or small class? Charge
them to learn how to transplant and care for their beginner orchid,
have some plants, books, and products available for sale at the same
time.

Do you advertise? Possibly there would be more local buyers if they
knew you existed. Cheat. Wear an orchid corsage to an event you are
going to attend anyway, deliver a plant or arrangement to a friends
workplace, church, wedding, or funeral. Leave a CONSPICUOUS card on
the gift. Don't make it too elaborate or expensive. The first may be
gratis, but have ongoing benefits. Maybe a table top display in a
business. Most won't let you set prices there, but people would see
your name and possibly your web address. Post your hours, prices,
point of contact there.

Before you build or expand, evaluate the greenhouse or your potential
growing area. Most are grotesquely inefficient. Wasted space, energy,
and resources. Would a better design or location give you a more
competive edge. I've been reading a solar greenhouse book and have
some articles on energy saving features. Sure the book was published
in the 70's, but is still an area that is sumarily ignored.
Orientation, angle, materials, thermal mass, glazing, insulation,
reflectivity. In a northern or midwest climate a better plan could
save the cost of modification in one season of heating. Some features
are tax deductible, expand. Would you be able to look at old mines
where 8 lights = 1 heater. How about underground parking, former
warehouses, the basements of apartment complexes?

Maybe the AOS should change its name to the AOG, Inc. "American Orchid
Growers, Inc." If it sounded more like a business than a good old boys
club it would get more respect. Little better actually than a local
garden club. Images of high tea, flowered dresses, and frumpy hats.
It started as a society for the idle rich. Orchids probably have a
luxery tax that no one knows about, too. If it doesn't, someone
somewhere is plotting to impose one.

So much for now, just some ideas I've been kicking around. Yes I'm
aware there is a big difference between "in theory" and "in practice".

Nancy

SuE: Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't figure most hobbyists had the space to
hold 1000, or even 500, plants from flask or compot to first bloom. It's a
pretty long time ... And e-baying 2 flasks only gets you down from 1000 to
900.

I don't agree with you about the higher percentage of die-off. We don't baby
our plants, here -- if they can't take the local environment, they just die.
We would much rather lose plants early, than after we've put 3-5 years into
them, bringing them up to flowering, so we practice Darwin "survival of the
fittest." Hobbyists are more likely to fuss over them than we are... and
thereby keep the weak along with the strong.

No dispute that pitching the unsellable is a cost of doing business. But
all costs of doing business have to somehow get plugged back into the price
of what one does sell, if one wants to remain in business ... Kenni


The easy answer on that is that they will have a higher percentage die
off from compot stage to first bloom. So they see if they can e-bay a
flask or two, double their expected ability to handle plants and pitch
the rest. Cost of doing business is sometimes the unsellable gets
tossed even if you paid for it.
SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/orchids

On Mon, 6 Nov 2006 22:02:40 -0500, "Kenni Judd"
wrote:

I don't agree with you about the higher percentage of die-off. We don't baby
our plants, here -- if they can't take the local environment, they just die.

Kenni -
My thought was 50-75% would not make a week out of flask due to
inexperienced handling. I have enough trouble keeping compots
healthy... of course I forget to fuss.
SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/orchids

Hi Nancy,

Thanks for the ideas, do not apologize.

One thing that does worry me is the local society sponsored orchid shows.
These shows count on orchid sales to pay the bills and the current show
trends have not been very good. At most shows it seems that attendance is
down and a more common attitude of the public seems to be "A great variety,
but not
many interesting ones........And of course you can not beat the price at the
box store!" Instead of coming home from the show with two plants, they get
fired up at the show and then head off to the box store to buy three plants
for the same money.

I do not think that there is much the vendors can do about price. I tend to
sell plants at shows for about $30. Of that $30, about $6 from every plant
sold goes directly to the society as a table fee or commission. In
addition, I figure another $2 from every plant sold goes to pay for the
costs associated with putting in an exhibit. If we remove the fees that I
must pay to underwrite the cost of a show, I am receiving about $22 per
plants sold. Not very different from what some box stores receive.

Some societies are already feeling the pinch. Over the past few months two
of my commission shows have announced rate hikes. It is the first time I
have seen rate hikes in ten years. In the first one, all of the vendors
refused to do the show. I attended the society meeting of the second.
There was a general feeling at the meeting that vendors could just raise
their prices to cover the increase in fees. Thankfully my wife was there (I
am too gruff to be allowed to speak in public) and she was able to explain
we deal in a commodity that has it price set by the market (i.e. box
stores.) If we raise our prices too high not only will we lose sales but
the general public will think of the show as a rip-off and never come back.
I did this show and most of the commission increase came directly out of my
back pocket. I do not know if the other vendors were able to past on the
costs or if they ate them as well.

I just got a mailing from New York and they are introducing new rules which
they hope will help vendors. One rule prohibits bottom feeding pricing and
another prohibits Sunday afternoon dumping. The mailing is just about as
adamant as it can be without crossing the price fixing line. I have always
though trying to control a commodity's price was never easy and in most
cases not a good idea. At least the show's board recognized problems and
acted in a mater they felt was best for the show and its vendors. We will
see.

All you guys out there involved in putting on these shows need to be
watching closely to make sure your show remands viable for the number and
type of vendors it involves or the society desires. Creative solutions are
going to be required and show boards are facing hard decisions.


Pat