Posted originally on the OGD:

From: Marianna Max


George had a visit from the plant police who confiscated all of his
computer files. He was left with no way to contact his customers while
they go over his computer so he would like it if you all would email him.
Please pass this on to anyone who might not already know. I'll let him
explain what happened in his own words.


Howdy Buckeroos,


Well, here's the story and pay attention, you might be next!


Tuesday morning about 10 am, 6 armed agents of our government served
me with a search warrant and proceeded to ransack my house, special
emphasis on my office. Seems this is an investigation into a possible
violation of the Lacey Act. In looking up the Lacey Act, I find that
it pertains to the Importation or Shipment of Injurious Mammels,
Birds, Fish (including mollusks and crustacea) Amphinia and Reptiles.
It outlines the penalties for anyone engaged in shipping to the
United States, Herpestes auropunctatus which seems to be a certain
species of Mongoose. It also prohibits trade to the U.S. of any wild
animals, birds, fish, mollusks, crustacae, amphibians, reptiles or
their offspring or eggs of anything the Secretary of the Interior may
prescribe as injurious to humans, agriculture, horticulture, forestry
or wildlife resources of the U.S. It further goes on to repeal the
Black Bass Act of 1900????????


Also included now by the Lacey Act Amendment of 1981, they have
vaguely added "plants", not anything specific like maybe orchids or
cactus but just "plants".


The Feds or as I like to call them, The Plant Gestapo seems to think
something was wrong with the Phrags. I sold from Peru in August even
though they are listed as I-D on the CITES from that country and
legally qualified for this designation by the government of Peru. The
documents were passed by U.S. Customs and satisfied the USDA and
those plants were inspected and sent on to me as released by the
government.


Somehow the Plant Gestapo was able to convince a U.S. Federal
Magistrate by taking parts of emails out of context, to issue a
search warrant. After 3 hours and 45 minutes, they boxed up 20 big
cartons of all my office stuff, emails, correspondence, files,
catalogs, floppies, fishing pictures and personal stuff, took my CPU
from my computer and left. They read me my Miranda Rights, searched
my greenhouse and said I was not being charged with
anything.........yet!


So I am now without computer with any addresses or business
information and can not contact my customers and friends except
through this Forum. I am still kicking and apparently going to take a
months vacation from business whether I like it or not. It will be at
least that long before I get my computer back as it is on it's way to
a forensics lab in Oregon to be nuked. Let me assure y'all that they
are just fishing for something...anything and they won't find nuttin.


I have always obeyed the laws, my plants are all legal and they won't
find anything except some really terrible jokes on my computer.
Please bear with me during this period. We are getting plants in but
have no mailing list to send price lists out to so we will just grow
them out. I have email now on Kathy's computer but can only answer
emails as I have no one's address. The "FREE THE OLD WRANGLER DEFENCE
FUND" is not set up yet but we'll let you know later. Please feel
free to write me and ask questions, I have nothing to hide and I
think now the Feds know that.


Good growing to you all and watch who you let in your house.


GN

A quick Google search shows that paragraph 4 under "Prohibitions of
Activities" lists falsification of labeling .

http://ipl.unm.edu/cwl/fedbook/laceyame.html

Looks like George is up against it this time. I'm not even sure who one
would write to in order to protest either. Doesn't look like USFWS.

K Barrett

"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:iWQob.60118$9E1.261218@attbi_s52...
Posted originally on the OGD:

From: Marianna Max


George had a visit from the plant police who confiscated all of his
computer files. He was left with no way to contact his customers while
they go over his computer so he would like it if you all would email him.
Please pass this on to anyone who might not already know. I'll let him
explain what happened in his own words.


Howdy Buckeroos,


Well, here's the story and pay attention, you might be next!


Tuesday morning about 10 am, 6 armed agents of our government served
me with a search warrant and proceeded to ransack my house, special
emphasis on my office. Seems this is an investigation into a possible
violation of the Lacey Act. In looking up the Lacey Act, I find that
it pertains to the Importation or Shipment of Injurious Mammels,
Birds, Fish (including mollusks and crustacea) Amphinia and Reptiles.
It outlines the penalties for anyone engaged in shipping to the
United States, Herpestes auropunctatus which seems to be a certain
species of Mongoose. It also prohibits trade to the U.S. of any wild
animals, birds, fish, mollusks, crustacae, amphibians, reptiles or
their offspring or eggs of anything the Secretary of the Interior may
prescribe as injurious to humans, agriculture, horticulture, forestry
or wildlife resources of the U.S. It further goes on to repeal the
Black Bass Act of 1900????????


Also included now by the Lacey Act Amendment of 1981, they have
vaguely added "plants", not anything specific like maybe orchids or
cactus but just "plants".


The Feds or as I like to call them, The Plant Gestapo seems to think
something was wrong with the Phrags. I sold from Peru in August even
though they are listed as I-D on the CITES from that country and
legally qualified for this designation by the government of Peru. The
documents were passed by U.S. Customs and satisfied the USDA and
those plants were inspected and sent on to me as released by the
government.


Somehow the Plant Gestapo was able to convince a U.S. Federal
Magistrate by taking parts of emails out of context, to issue a
search warrant. After 3 hours and 45 minutes, they boxed up 20 big
cartons of all my office stuff, emails, correspondence, files,
catalogs, floppies, fishing pictures and personal stuff, took my CPU
from my computer and left. They read me my Miranda Rights, searched
my greenhouse and said I was not being charged with
anything.........yet!


So I am now without computer with any addresses or business
information and can not contact my customers and friends except
through this Forum. I am still kicking and apparently going to take a
months vacation from business whether I like it or not. It will be at
least that long before I get my computer back as it is on it's way to
a forensics lab in Oregon to be nuked. Let me assure y'all that they
are just fishing for something...anything and they won't find nuttin.


I have always obeyed the laws, my plants are all legal and they won't
find anything except some really terrible jokes on my computer.
Please bear with me during this period. We are getting plants in but
have no mailing list to send price lists out to so we will just grow
them out. I have email now on Kathy's computer but can only answer
emails as I have no one's address. The "FREE THE OLD WRANGLER DEFENCE
FUND" is not set up yet but we'll let you know later. Please feel
free to write me and ask questions, I have nothing to hide and I
think now the Feds know that.


Good growing to you all and watch who you let in your house.


GN

Kathy,

Where did you get that there was falsification of labeling from the account
of what happened from George? I re-read it and couldn't figure out what you
mean here.

-Eric in SF

"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:T_Qob.60136$9E1.261919@attbi_s52...
A quick Google search shows that paragraph 4 under "Prohibitions of
Activities" lists falsification of labeling .

http://ipl.unm.edu/cwl/fedbook/laceyame.html

Looks like George is up against it this time. I'm not even sure who one
would write to in order to protest either. Doesn't look like USFWS.

K Barrett

George says he had proper paperwork to import some Phrags from Peru and now
the government is coming back with questions. I know George has had his GHs
investgated before by the USFWS, and has always come out smelling like a
rose becasue his CITES paperwork is always in order. So are they now saying
he falsified the paperwork? That's the only part of the Lacey Act that seems
to pertain to George's troubles.

I think the gov't is probably overly sensitive to anything vaguely
concerning Phrags after all the kovachii troubles. Probably some government
official was routinely looking over paperwork, saw the word 'Phragmipedium'
and sounded the General Alarm calling all hands to Battle Stations.

K Barrett

"Eric Hunt" wrote in message
...
Kathy,

Where did you get that there was falsification of labeling from the
account
of what happened from George? I re-read it and couldn't figure out what
you
mean here.

-Eric in SF

"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:T_Qob.60136$9E1.261919@attbi_s52...
A quick Google search shows that paragraph 4 under "Prohibitions of
Activities" lists falsification of labeling .

http://ipl.unm.edu/cwl/fedbook/laceyame.html

Looks like George is up against it this time. I'm not even sure who one
would write to in order to protest either. Doesn't look like USFWS.

K Barrett

Hello Feds,

Could you please come here to pack up and carry away 20 big cartons of stuff
from my office too? I really need some help tidying the office.

Thanks,
Pat B.


"K Barrett" wrote in message
news:iWQob.60118$9E1.261218@attbi_s52...
Posted originally on the OGD:

From: Marianna Max


George had a visit from the plant police who confiscated all of his
computer files. He was left with no way to contact his customers while
they go over his computer so he would like it if you all would email him.
Please pass this on to anyone who might not already know. I'll let him
explain what happened in his own words.


Howdy Buckeroos,


Well, here's the story and pay attention, you might be next!


Tuesday morning about 10 am, 6 armed agents of our government served
me with a search warrant and proceeded to ransack my house, special
emphasis on my office. Seems this is an investigation into a possible
violation of the Lacey Act. In looking up the Lacey Act, I find that
it pertains to the Importation or Shipment of Injurious Mammels,
Birds, Fish (including mollusks and crustacea) Amphinia and Reptiles.
It outlines the penalties for anyone engaged in shipping to the
United States, Herpestes auropunctatus which seems to be a certain
species of Mongoose. It also prohibits trade to the U.S. of any wild
animals, birds, fish, mollusks, crustacae, amphibians, reptiles or
their offspring or eggs of anything the Secretary of the Interior may
prescribe as injurious to humans, agriculture, horticulture, forestry
or wildlife resources of the U.S. It further goes on to repeal the
Black Bass Act of 1900????????


Also included now by the Lacey Act Amendment of 1981, they have
vaguely added "plants", not anything specific like maybe orchids or
cactus but just "plants".


The Feds or as I like to call them, The Plant Gestapo seems to think
something was wrong with the Phrags. I sold from Peru in August even
though they are listed as I-D on the CITES from that country and
legally qualified for this designation by the government of Peru. The
documents were passed by U.S. Customs and satisfied the USDA and
those plants were inspected and sent on to me as released by the
government.


Somehow the Plant Gestapo was able to convince a U.S. Federal
Magistrate by taking parts of emails out of context, to issue a
search warrant. After 3 hours and 45 minutes, they boxed up 20 big
cartons of all my office stuff, emails, correspondence, files,
catalogs, floppies, fishing pictures and personal stuff, took my CPU
from my computer and left. They read me my Miranda Rights, searched
my greenhouse and said I was not being charged with
anything.........yet!


So I am now without computer with any addresses or business
information and can not contact my customers and friends except
through this Forum. I am still kicking and apparently going to take a
months vacation from business whether I like it or not. It will be at
least that long before I get my computer back as it is on it's way to
a forensics lab in Oregon to be nuked. Let me assure y'all that they
are just fishing for something...anything and they won't find nuttin.


I have always obeyed the laws, my plants are all legal and they won't
find anything except some really terrible jokes on my computer.
Please bear with me during this period. We are getting plants in but
have no mailing list to send price lists out to so we will just grow
them out. I have email now on Kathy's computer but can only answer
emails as I have no one's address. The "FREE THE OLD WRANGLER DEFENCE
FUND" is not set up yet but we'll let you know later. Please feel
free to write me and ask questions, I have nothing to hide and I
think now the Feds know that.


Good growing to you all and watch who you let in your house.


GN

On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 06:43:55 GMT, "K Barrett"
wrote:


I think the gov't is probably overly sensitive to anything vaguely
concerning Phrags after all the kovachii troubles. Probably some government
official was routinely looking over paperwork, saw the word 'Phragmipedium'
and sounded the General Alarm calling all hands to Battle Stations.

K Barrett

You forgot the second fire word. Phragmipedium and Peru -----
There just had to be a General Alarm.
SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php

"Susan Erickson" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 06:43:55 GMT, "K Barrett"
wrote:


I think the gov't is probably overly sensitive to anything vaguely
concerning Phrags after all the kovachii troubles. Probably some
government
official was routinely looking over paperwork, saw the word
'Phragmipedium'
and sounded the General Alarm calling all hands to Battle Stations.

K Barrett

You forgot the second fire word. Phragmipedium and Peru -----
There just had to be a General Alarm.
SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php

*G*, like the scene from 'Mr. Roberts', where the palm tree is tossed
overboard. 'Sound the General Alarm! Sound the General Alarm!"

K Barrett

Oh Boy! I can't wait to hear from George!
To me it seems like a lot more people are being investigated for illegal
traffic nowadays!
I can picture it now, the bureau has their allocation of money & they sit
with their brand new
lap tops searching the internet finding people to zap!
They probably have searched all the news groups too.....................?
But if people abide by the laws & are not guilty of any wrong doing
then the hassle & turmoil that the have been subjected to, becomes
ludicrous!
Cheers Wendy

"Susan Erickson" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 06:43:55 GMT, "K Barrett"
wrote:


I think the gov't is probably overly sensitive to anything vaguely
concerning Phrags after all the kovachii troubles. Probably some
government
official was routinely looking over paperwork, saw the word
'Phragmipedium'
and sounded the General Alarm calling all hands to Battle Stations.

K Barrett

You forgot the second fire word. Phragmipedium and Peru -----
There just had to be a General Alarm.
SuE
http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php

Thank goodness my government is protecting me from George Norris! And to
think they might be wasting the money they're spending chasing him --
feeding the hungry, housi\ing the homeless, providing health care for
those without, and proitecting me from muggers, murderers, and thieves!

Oh, thank goodness! now I can sleep better!

tennis maynard wrote in
:

Thank goodness my government is protecting me from George Norris! And to
think they might be wasting the money they're spending chasing him --
feeding the hungry, housi\ing the homeless, providing health care for
those without, and proitecting me from muggers, murderers, and thieves!

Oh, thank goodness! now I can sleep better!




HALLELUIAH AND AMEN!
I couldn't have said it better
Dusty

tennis maynard writes:
Thank goodness my government is protecting me from George Norris! And to
think they might be wasting the money they're spending chasing him --
feeding the hungry, housi\ing the homeless, providing health care for
those without, and proitecting me from muggers, murderers, and thieves!

Satire is an important tool, but I am left wondering wether you mean
the police should not have confiscated the things they did because you
know this guy and think he is one of the Good Guys, or because seizing
things that way is just plain wrong.

If it is the first option I think you should reconsider. Laws apply to
everybody. "But not him" is not an expression you would want to hear
spoken by a judge in a civilized society.

If it is the latter - how do you mean the police should catch
criminals if they are not allowed to secure evidence? (I see the
problem of the police keeping PCs until they can be regarded as
technical dinosaurs because they don't have the manpower to do what
they should, which is make a backup they can look at) A judge
obviously thought this was servere enough to let the police seize the
records.

What would this guy have done if his harddisk had died on him? He is a
professional and doing a trade. If his whole livelyhood is locked up
in the wellbeing of one computer, something is awfully wrong.

How far would _you_ trust a $500 piece of machinery?

Geir

tennis maynard writes:
Thank goodness my government is protecting me from George Norris! And to
think they might be wasting the money they're spending chasing him --
feeding the hungry, housi\ing the homeless, providing health care for
those without, and proitecting me from muggers, murderers, and thieves!

Satire is an important tool, but I am left wondering wether you mean
the police should not have confiscated the things they did because you
know this guy and think he is one of the Good Guys, or because seizing
things that way is just plain wrong.

If it is the first option I think you should reconsider. Laws apply to
everybody. "But not him" is not an expression you would want to hear
spoken by a judge in a civilized society.

If it is the latter - how do you mean the police should catch
criminals if they are not allowed to secure evidence? (I see the
problem of the police keeping PCs until they can be regarded as
technical dinosaurs because they don't have the manpower to do what
they should, which is make a backup they can look at) A judge
obviously thought this was severe enough to let the police seize the
records.

What would this guy have done if his harddisk had died on him? He is a
professional and doing a trade. If his whole livelyhood is locked up
in the wellbeing of one computer, something is awfully wrong.

How far would _you_ trust a $500 piece of machinery?

Geir

On 08 Nov 2003 00:44:10 +0100, Geir Harris Hedemark
wrote in Message-Id: :

A judge obviously thought this was servere enough to let the
police seize the records.


If Mr. Norris had been authoring a book on his computer, he might have
been successful in blocking its confiscation under this provision:

Sec. 2000aa. - Searches and seizures by government officers and
employees in connection with investigation or prosecution of
criminal offenses:
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/42/2000aa.html