Horse manure?
 

http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/6917/manure.htm

What do y'all think about growing orchids in horse manure?

Ruth CM

Horse manure?
 

Nic is, and has been a proponent for years. While it may work, it's messy
and unsanitary.

I find my greenhouse a pleasant environment to visit. The last thing I want
to do is fill it with sh**.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

.. . . . . . . . . . .
"RPM1" wrote in message
...
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/6917/manure.htm

What do y'all think about growing orchids in horse manure?

Ruth CM

Horse manure?
 

Ray wrote:

Nic is, and has been a proponent for years. While it may work, it's messy
and unsanitary.



Messy, a bit. Unsanitary? I strongly doubt that horse manure is a
vector of human disease. I wouldn't eat it, but you don't eat your
current potting mix, do you? Wash your hands.

I find my greenhouse a pleasant environment to visit. The last thing I want
to do is fill it with sh**.


Horse manure isn't bad. Pig manure... that smell will kill you.
Not a knock against Ray, but this seems to be a common problem these
days. Synthesized fertilizers (made from dead dinosaurs) are great, and
smell ok. Manure (made from live hay, via a live horse) smells a little
funky and so should be avoided at all costs. Yet another instance of
people being so distant from their food that the only thing the know
about vegetables is where they are located at the megamart. I
personally find the smell of horse manure to be kind of earthy. Would I
use it as cologne? No.

Do I use manure in my greenhouse? Don't have one yet. I do use it
in my garden. I moved approximately 100 yards of horse manure into my
garden last year, and will do it again this year. My vegetables were
not only tasty, but prolific and a wonderment to all who shared in the
bounty. If I did try it in my greenhouse, and saw excellent results,
then any visitors would have to cope with the aroma. They aren't
getting to my door without finding that aroma anyway, thanks to my
neighbors with the 30 horses...

I'm not at all saying I would use manure instead of 'regular'
fertilizers on orchids. There is a good reason to use well standardized
products. But in addtion to regular fertilizers? Maybe, if I was
feeling experimental. However, the experience of a farm boy leads me to
suggest: raw horse manu ok. Raw any other manure - no. Compost
anything else for a good long time before you use it (to remove odor,
strength, and any potential pathogens). Chicken manure will burn your
plants right up (and your hands). Horses are particularly inefficient
digestors, so the majority of the excrement is undigested fodder. The
other barnyard animals excrete much more potent waste.

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

Horse manure?
 

Subject: Horse manure?
From: "RPM1"
Date: Mon, Feb 9, 2004 7:38 AM
Message-id:

http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/6917/manure.htm

What do y'all think about growing orchids in horse manure?

Ruth CM


Having read about this over the past year or two, I decided to give it a try
with cymbidiums, where it had been suggested in the first place. By way of
background, I have grown cymbidiums for several years, won ribbons at shows,
and twice won for best cymbidium in an annual society show.
Last spring I started with three plants, each of which had previously flowered.
They were repotted, with cleaning off all old media and being careful not to
damage the roots. They were repotted using only fresh horse manure. They were
watered every day as advised, and fed additionally, once a week with 100pp
N/gal of a balanced fertilizer.
In my opinion, they grew very well, but no better than previously, in a bark
mix. They are in flower, now, but each has the same number of inflorescences
that they produced last year.
The horse manure worked quite well, but no better than my bark mix.
Will I use it again? I doubt it as it is not as convenient; but there was no
odor, and I did not find it messy-just not as convenient.

Horse manure?
 

Rob Halgren writes:
Messy, a bit. Unsanitary? I strongly doubt that horse manure is
a vector of human disease.

It is. Tetanus and other nasty germs thrive in more or less all kinds
of soil and manure.

and smell ok. Manure (made from live hay, via a live horse) smells a
little funky and so should be avoided at all costs. Yet another

This is wrong. You are talking about the fresh doodahs. If you ferment
the doodahs you get something akin to compost, and almost without a
smell. I use this stuff indoors on my limes, and nobody has complained
about any smell yet. They have said the taste is "fuller" than the
shopbought limes. I haven't had the heart to tell them why.

People _do_ think it is an interesting experience to be able to pick a
lime off the wall in the living room and put a slice directly into the
gin&tonic. Running a 250w HID light for the orchids during the day has
a couple of pleasant side effects. :)

Geir

Horse manure?
 

Geir Harris Hedemark wrote:

Rob Halgren writes:


Messy, a bit. Unsanitary? I strongly doubt that horse manure is
a vector of human disease.



It is. Tetanus and other nasty germs thrive in more or less all kinds
of soil and manure.


Tetanus is anaerobic, I believe. Not likely to pick it up from
simple skin contact. But I think the point is "is it any more
unsanitary than garden dirt"? I don't know of any diseases that are
passed from horse to human via a fecal route. Other animals, sure. I
could be wrong, of course (say it ain't so!!). If you know of a
specific human pathogen in horse manure, then by all means let me know
so I know to take appropriate precautions. E. coli might be a danger,
but the only hazardous strains of that that I have seen are from
bovines. Of course there all sorts of microorganisms in any biological
sample, including what comes out of the back of a large grazing
animal... But it isn't biohazardous waste, requiring orange bags,
gloves, and a ventilator. I might use a shovel or pitchfork, and some
of those kitchen gloves if I was feeling particularly squeemish. Immune
compromised individuals should probably run screaming the other way, of
course. I've gotten far more diseases from my daughter's day-care
center than I have ever gotten working outside in the garden.


But I thought the trick of growing in horse manure involved using
....medium... fresh off the horse, so to speak. Anyway, I think that as
long as you don't eat it, grind it up and inject it under your skin (or
poke yourself with sharp objects in its presence), or snort it, you
shouldn't be able to harm yourself with fresh horse dung. You would
really have to go out of your way. It has a bit of a fragrance, but not
terribly offensive. It certainly doesn't smell like human waste. Wash
your hands after repotting. You should do that anyway, regardless of
what you pot in.


Once manure (of any kind) has been properly composted, it is safe,
however. Proper composting involves getting the pile to pretty warm
temperatures for a considerable time, which kills any remaining
pathogens. At that point it is as safe or safer than dirt. And smells
better, too. I wouldn't use other than barnyard manures on food crops.
Some 'organic' regulations (if you want to be certified as an organic
grower) require that no manures be applied to food crops within a few
weeks of harvest. Whatever. Some people compost dog or cat waste (not
I), or even human waste (again not I), but I think the general
recommendation there is that even if it has been well composted it is
best to use these manures on non-edible crops. It is quite easy to pass
human disease through human waste, so don't be stupid.


I partially compost my 'horsey gold' before putting it on the
garden. That means that when my neighbor drops it off (in big piles in
my yard), it usually takes a few days or a week or so before I can move
it. By then it has cooked a little bit. For a gardener, living next to
a horse farm is like finding diamonds in your soup.

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

Horse manure?
 

Geir Harris Hedemark wrote:

Rob Halgren writes:


Messy, a bit. Unsanitary? I strongly doubt that horse manure is
a vector of human disease.



It is. Tetanus and other nasty germs thrive in more or less all kinds
of soil and manure.


Tetanus is anaerobic, I believe. Not likely to pick it up from
simple skin contact. But I think the point is "is it any more
unsanitary than garden dirt"? I don't know of any diseases that are
passed from horse to human via a fecal route. Other animals, sure. I
could be wrong, of course (say it ain't so!!). If you know of a
specific human pathogen in horse manure, then by all means let me know
so I know to take appropriate precautions. E. coli might be a danger,
but the only hazardous strains of that that I have seen are from
bovines. Of course there all sorts of microorganisms in any biological
sample, including what comes out of the back of a large grazing
animal... But it isn't biohazardous waste, requiring orange bags,
gloves, and a ventilator. I might use a shovel or pitchfork, and some
of those kitchen gloves if I was feeling particularly squeemish. Immune
compromised individuals should probably run screaming the other way, of
course. I've gotten far more diseases from my daughter's day-care
center than I have ever gotten working outside in the garden.


But I thought the trick of growing in horse manure involved using
....medium... fresh off the horse, so to speak. Anyway, I think that as
long as you don't eat it, grind it up and inject it under your skin (or
poke yourself with sharp objects in its presence), or snort it, you
shouldn't be able to harm yourself with fresh horse dung. You would
really have to go out of your way. It has a bit of a fragrance, but not
terribly offensive. It certainly doesn't smell like human waste. Wash
your hands after repotting. You should do that anyway, regardless of
what you pot in.


Once manure (of any kind) has been properly composted, it is safe,
however. Proper composting involves getting the pile to pretty warm
temperatures for a considerable time, which kills any remaining
pathogens. At that point it is as safe or safer than dirt. And smells
better, too. I wouldn't use other than barnyard manures on food crops.
Some 'organic' regulations (if you want to be certified as an organic
grower) require that no manures be applied to food crops within a few
weeks of harvest. Whatever. Some people compost dog or cat waste (not
I), or even human waste (again not I), but I think the general
recommendation there is that even if it has been well composted it is
best to use these manures on non-edible crops. It is quite easy to pass
human disease through human waste, so don't be stupid.


I partially compost my 'horsey gold' before putting it on the
garden. That means that when my neighbor drops it off (in big piles in
my yard), it usually takes a few days or a week or so before I can move
it. By then it has cooked a little bit. For a gardener, living next to
a horse farm is like finding diamonds in your soup.

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

Horse manure?
 

Horse manure may be the way to go if one has had tetnus shots.

.. . . Pam
Everything Orchid Management System
http://www.pe.net/~profpam/page3.html

------------------------------------------
Wendy wrote:

: Rob -
: I think Geir is correct ... it is not hard on the digestion. It
: is hard on the keyboard. G
:
: SuE
: http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php
:
:
: This is precisely why I drink diet soda instead of coffee. I can
: still read the keys, and they don't stick to my fingers. Otherwise I'd
: be skroood. *grin*
:
: Rob
:
But...........but Rob, doesn't soda eat into the metal parts of a keyboard?
There was some experiment where a penny was put into
a glass of coca cola?
Cheers Wendy

Horse manure?
 

I remember back on the farm, it was considered "hot." Tending to burn
plants if fresh. But, composted, it's fairly good stuff and much more
sanitary. I've never tried it for orchids. I've recently switch from
bark, cinder (volcanice), and perlite; to using cut coconut husk instead of
bark, better aeration and lighter.

--
--
David C. Vaughn
davon96720

http://members.tripod.com/davon96720

No of SETI units returned: 1355
Processing time: 1 years, 303 days, 17 hours.
(Total hours: 16049)
www.setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu

"RPM1" wrote in message
...
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/6917/manure.htm

What do y'all think about growing orchids in horse manure?

Ruth CM

Horse manure?
 

: Rob -
: I think Geir is correct ... it is not hard on the digestion. It
: is hard on the keyboard. G
:
: SuE
: http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php
:
:
: This is precisely why I drink diet soda instead of coffee. I can
: still read the keys, and they don't stick to my fingers. Otherwise I'd
: be skroood. *grin*
:
: Rob
:
But...........but Rob, doesn't soda eat into the metal parts of a keyboard?
There was some experiment where a penny was put into
a glass of coca cola?
Cheers Wendy

Horse manure?
 

: Rob -
: I think Geir is correct ... it is not hard on the digestion. It
: is hard on the keyboard. G
:
: SuE
: http://orchids.legolas.org/gallery/albums.php
:
:
: This is precisely why I drink diet soda instead of coffee. I can
: still read the keys, and they don't stick to my fingers. Otherwise I'd
: be skroood. *grin*
:
: Rob
:
But...........but Rob, doesn't soda eat into the metal parts of a keyboard?
There was some experiment where a penny was put into
a glass of coca cola?
Cheers Wendy

Horse manure?
 

Xref: kermit rec.gardens.orchids:55667


"Rob Halgren" wrote in message
...

The ONLY way your keyboard is going to be really safe is if a) you ban
liquids from within a metre of the keyboard, or b) you install a keyboard
condom (a flexible plastic envelop molded to the shape of your keyboard -
flexible so that you can type with it in place, but guaranteed to keep
liquids out of your keyboard unless it is torn or punctured).



ACKKK!!! First carpal tunnel and now I can't even drink the
programmer's friend? (Diet Mountain Dew...) I'm going to have to build
that greenhouse now, it is all over for me as a computer jockey.

Sure you can! Just get yourself a condom!

;-)

Cheers,

Ted

Horse manure?
 

"Ted Byers" writes:
The ONLY way your keyboard is going to be really safe is if a) you ban
liquids from within a metre of the keyboard, or b) you install a keyboard
condom (a flexible plastic envelop molded to the shape of your keyboard -
flexible so that you can type with it in place, but guaranteed to keep
liquids out of your keyboard unless it is torn or punctured).

Keyboards are inexpensive. I keep a spare, and this one get to take a shower
with me (no, really) once in a while. When it dies, it will get a
proper burial in the dustbin before I break out the new one.

Keyboard condoms are only an option in kitchens where you want your
keyboards to be _clean_. But why are people typing when they should be
cooking my food?

Geir

Horse manure?
 

Geir Harris Hedemark wrote in message ...
Rob Halgren writes:
Messy, a bit. Unsanitary? I strongly doubt that horse manure is
a vector of human disease.

It is. Tetanus and other nasty germs thrive in more or less all kinds
of soil and manure.


Indeed, the tetanus bacterium is a normal part of a horse's intestinal
flora.

This is also true for many other animals.

Curiously, horses themselves must be immunized against tetanus. The
situation is analogous to that involving humans and --E. coli--; as
long as the bacteria stay where they belong, they aren't a problem.
Introduced to other parts of the body, they cause trouble.

J. Del Col

Horse manure?
 

Geir Harris Hedemark wrote in message ...
Rob Halgren writes:
Messy, a bit. Unsanitary? I strongly doubt that horse manure is
a vector of human disease.

It is. Tetanus and other nasty germs thrive in more or less all kinds
of soil and manure.


Indeed, the tetanus bacterium is a normal part of a horse's intestinal
flora.

This is also true for many other animals.

Curiously, horses themselves must be immunized against tetanus. The
situation is analogous to that involving humans and --E. coli--; as
long as the bacteria stay where they belong, they aren't a problem.
Introduced to other parts of the body, they cause trouble.

J. Del Col

Horse manure?
 

Geir Harris Hedemark wrote in message ...
Rob Halgren writes:
Messy, a bit. Unsanitary? I strongly doubt that horse manure is
a vector of human disease.

It is. Tetanus and other nasty germs thrive in more or less all kinds
of soil and manure.


Indeed, the tetanus bacterium is a normal part of a horse's intestinal
flora.

This is also true for many other animals.

Curiously, horses themselves must be immunized against tetanus. The
situation is analogous to that involving humans and --E. coli--; as
long as the bacteria stay where they belong, they aren't a problem.
Introduced to other parts of the body, they cause trouble.

J. Del Col

Horse manure?
 

Geir Harris Hedemark wrote in message ...
Rob Halgren writes:
Messy, a bit. Unsanitary? I strongly doubt that horse manure is
a vector of human disease.

It is. Tetanus and other nasty germs thrive in more or less all kinds
of soil and manure.


Indeed, the tetanus bacterium is a normal part of a horse's intestinal
flora.

This is also true for many other animals.

Curiously, horses themselves must be immunized against tetanus. The
situation is analogous to that involving humans and --E. coli--; as
long as the bacteria stay where they belong, they aren't a problem.
Introduced to other parts of the body, they cause trouble.

J. Del Col

Horse manure?
 

Geir Harris Hedemark wrote in message ...
Rob Halgren writes:
Messy, a bit. Unsanitary? I strongly doubt that horse manure is
a vector of human disease.

It is. Tetanus and other nasty germs thrive in more or less all kinds
of soil and manure.


Indeed, the tetanus bacterium is a normal part of a horse's intestinal
flora.

This is also true for many other animals.

Curiously, horses themselves must be immunized against tetanus. The
situation is analogous to that involving humans and --E. coli--; as
long as the bacteria stay where they belong, they aren't a problem.
Introduced to other parts of the body, they cause trouble.

J. Del Col

Horse manure?
 

Geir Harris Hedemark wrote in message ...
Rob Halgren writes:
Messy, a bit. Unsanitary? I strongly doubt that horse manure is
a vector of human disease.

It is. Tetanus and other nasty germs thrive in more or less all kinds
of soil and manure.


Indeed, the tetanus bacterium is a normal part of a horse's intestinal
flora.

This is also true for many other animals.

Curiously, horses themselves must be immunized against tetanus. The
situation is analogous to that involving humans and --E. coli--; as
long as the bacteria stay where they belong, they aren't a problem.
Introduced to other parts of the body, they cause trouble.

J. Del Col

Horse manure?
 

Geir Harris Hedemark wrote in message ...
Rob Halgren writes:
Messy, a bit. Unsanitary? I strongly doubt that horse manure is
a vector of human disease.

It is. Tetanus and other nasty germs thrive in more or less all kinds
of soil and manure.


Indeed, the tetanus bacterium is a normal part of a horse's intestinal
flora.

This is also true for many other animals.

Curiously, horses themselves must be immunized against tetanus. The
situation is analogous to that involving humans and --E. coli--; as
long as the bacteria stay where they belong, they aren't a problem.
Introduced to other parts of the body, they cause trouble.

J. Del Col

Horse manure?
 

"Geir Harris Hedemark" wrote in message
...
"Ted Byers" writes:
The ONLY way your keyboard is going to be really safe is if a) you ban
liquids from within a metre of the keyboard, or b) you install a
keyboard
condom (a flexible plastic envelop molded to the shape of your
keyboard -
flexible so that you can type with it in place, but guaranteed to keep
liquids out of your keyboard unless it is torn or punctured).

Keyboards are inexpensive. I keep a spare, and this one get to take a
shower
with me (no, really) once in a while. When it dies, it will get a
proper burial in the dustbin before I break out the new one.

Yes, keyboards are inexpensive, but a keyboard failure due to shorts caused
by liquid can prove to be quite expensive. I gave one example in which
precisely such a failure destroyed every printed circuit board in the
machine. In such a failure, everything that is in the computer needs to be
replaced and in such a case, the cost can run to several thousand dollars.
The reason this is a problem is that the circuit in the keyboard is
connected to circuits in the motherboard which in turn is connected to
everything else, and the mere existance of such connections puts everything
in the box at risk. NB: there are multiple ciruits in most of these
devices, so there is a random element in that a given spill may not affect
some ciruits and therefore some devices might escape damage in some spills.

Keyboard condoms are only an option in kitchens where you want your
keyboards to be _clean_. But why are people typing when they should be
cooking my food?

I don't agree here. Keyboard condoms are an option in any office where
there may be liquids near the keyboard. The alternative is to ban all
liquids from proximity to the keyboard (possibly to the point of requiring
drinks such as coffee or soda to be on any other desk where there is no
electical device to even banning any liquid in the entire working area). I
KNOW, from first hand experience, that software developers (and presumably
others) are quite productive when they have their coffee close at hand, and
so if I employed other software developers (or if I had a need for office
workers), I would ensure that all of the keyboards in use had a condom in
place, just in case of an accident.

Also, I would say that computers can have a useful role in a kitchen. As an
example, I recently designed and implemented a consumer software product
that allows the user to enter and store any recipe in a database, as well as
store dietary limits for each member of his family (e.g. food allergies,
limits on fat or salt intake, &c.) and prepare meal plans that take dietary
limitations into account (and produce a shooping list that supports full
implementation of the meal plan). Clearly, unless your cook or chef has
memorized all of the recipes he or she ever uses, it is useful to have such
a product in which the recipes to be used for a given meal can be sought and
displayed. A related suite of products will involve recipe databases that
can be used with this consumer product, and of course they will be of
interest to anyone who might buy a recipe book. With such software
products, one would not want to waste paper by printing out the recipes
every time it is needed (or to print them and then have to store or file
them away for later use). It is most convenient to have such a product on a
computer located in or adjacent to the kitchen. I will grant that the
keyboard can be done away with (as can the mouse) by resorting to a touch
screen, but that makes entering a new recipe tedious at best. With software
products such as those I described, it becomes easy and practical to
experiment with recipes since each variant of a recpe can be stored (and in
a planned premium version, annotated). NB: I am talking here about
supporting and enhancing processes that belong in the kitchen, not importing
tasks that don't really belong in the kitchen.

Cheers,

Ted

Horse manure?
 

"Geir Harris Hedemark" wrote in message
...
"Ted Byers" writes:
The ONLY way your keyboard is going to be really safe is if a) you ban
liquids from within a metre of the keyboard, or b) you install a
keyboard
condom (a flexible plastic envelop molded to the shape of your
keyboard -
flexible so that you can type with it in place, but guaranteed to keep
liquids out of your keyboard unless it is torn or punctured).

Keyboards are inexpensive. I keep a spare, and this one get to take a
shower
with me (no, really) once in a while. When it dies, it will get a
proper burial in the dustbin before I break out the new one.

Yes, keyboards are inexpensive, but a keyboard failure due to shorts caused
by liquid can prove to be quite expensive. I gave one example in which
precisely such a failure destroyed every printed circuit board in the
machine. In such a failure, everything that is in the computer needs to be
replaced and in such a case, the cost can run to several thousand dollars.
The reason this is a problem is that the circuit in the keyboard is
connected to circuits in the motherboard which in turn is connected to
everything else, and the mere existance of such connections puts everything
in the box at risk. NB: there are multiple ciruits in most of these
devices, so there is a random element in that a given spill may not affect
some ciruits and therefore some devices might escape damage in some spills.

Keyboard condoms are only an option in kitchens where you want your
keyboards to be _clean_. But why are people typing when they should be
cooking my food?

I don't agree here. Keyboard condoms are an option in any office where
there may be liquids near the keyboard. The alternative is to ban all
liquids from proximity to the keyboard (possibly to the point of requiring
drinks such as coffee or soda to be on any other desk where there is no
electical device to even banning any liquid in the entire working area). I
KNOW, from first hand experience, that software developers (and presumably
others) are quite productive when they have their coffee close at hand, and
so if I employed other software developers (or if I had a need for office
workers), I would ensure that all of the keyboards in use had a condom in
place, just in case of an accident.

Also, I would say that computers can have a useful role in a kitchen. As an
example, I recently designed and implemented a consumer software product
that allows the user to enter and store any recipe in a database, as well as
store dietary limits for each member of his family (e.g. food allergies,
limits on fat or salt intake, &c.) and prepare meal plans that take dietary
limitations into account (and produce a shooping list that supports full
implementation of the meal plan). Clearly, unless your cook or chef has
memorized all of the recipes he or she ever uses, it is useful to have such
a product in which the recipes to be used for a given meal can be sought and
displayed. A related suite of products will involve recipe databases that
can be used with this consumer product, and of course they will be of
interest to anyone who might buy a recipe book. With such software
products, one would not want to waste paper by printing out the recipes
every time it is needed (or to print them and then have to store or file
them away for later use). It is most convenient to have such a product on a
computer located in or adjacent to the kitchen. I will grant that the
keyboard can be done away with (as can the mouse) by resorting to a touch
screen, but that makes entering a new recipe tedious at best. With software
products such as those I described, it becomes easy and practical to
experiment with recipes since each variant of a recpe can be stored (and in
a planned premium version, annotated). NB: I am talking here about
supporting and enhancing processes that belong in the kitchen, not importing
tasks that don't really belong in the kitchen.

Cheers,

Ted

Horse manure?
 

"Geir Harris Hedemark" wrote in message
...
"Ted Byers" writes:
The ONLY way your keyboard is going to be really safe is if a) you ban
liquids from within a metre of the keyboard, or b) you install a
keyboard
condom (a flexible plastic envelop molded to the shape of your
keyboard -
flexible so that you can type with it in place, but guaranteed to keep
liquids out of your keyboard unless it is torn or punctured).

Keyboards are inexpensive. I keep a spare, and this one get to take a
shower
with me (no, really) once in a while. When it dies, it will get a
proper burial in the dustbin before I break out the new one.

Yes, keyboards are inexpensive, but a keyboard failure due to shorts caused
by liquid can prove to be quite expensive. I gave one example in which
precisely such a failure destroyed every printed circuit board in the
machine. In such a failure, everything that is in the computer needs to be
replaced and in such a case, the cost can run to several thousand dollars.
The reason this is a problem is that the circuit in the keyboard is
connected to circuits in the motherboard which in turn is connected to
everything else, and the mere existance of such connections puts everything
in the box at risk. NB: there are multiple ciruits in most of these
devices, so there is a random element in that a given spill may not affect
some ciruits and therefore some devices might escape damage in some spills.

Keyboard condoms are only an option in kitchens where you want your
keyboards to be _clean_. But why are people typing when they should be
cooking my food?

I don't agree here. Keyboard condoms are an option in any office where
there may be liquids near the keyboard. The alternative is to ban all
liquids from proximity to the keyboard (possibly to the point of requiring
drinks such as coffee or soda to be on any other desk where there is no
electical device to even banning any liquid in the entire working area). I
KNOW, from first hand experience, that software developers (and presumably
others) are quite productive when they have their coffee close at hand, and
so if I employed other software developers (or if I had a need for office
workers), I would ensure that all of the keyboards in use had a condom in
place, just in case of an accident.

Also, I would say that computers can have a useful role in a kitchen. As an
example, I recently designed and implemented a consumer software product
that allows the user to enter and store any recipe in a database, as well as
store dietary limits for each member of his family (e.g. food allergies,
limits on fat or salt intake, &c.) and prepare meal plans that take dietary
limitations into account (and produce a shooping list that supports full
implementation of the meal plan). Clearly, unless your cook or chef has
memorized all of the recipes he or she ever uses, it is useful to have such
a product in which the recipes to be used for a given meal can be sought and
displayed. A related suite of products will involve recipe databases that
can be used with this consumer product, and of course they will be of
interest to anyone who might buy a recipe book. With such software
products, one would not want to waste paper by printing out the recipes
every time it is needed (or to print them and then have to store or file
them away for later use). It is most convenient to have such a product on a
computer located in or adjacent to the kitchen. I will grant that the
keyboard can be done away with (as can the mouse) by resorting to a touch
screen, but that makes entering a new recipe tedious at best. With software
products such as those I described, it becomes easy and practical to
experiment with recipes since each variant of a recpe can be stored (and in
a planned premium version, annotated). NB: I am talking here about
supporting and enhancing processes that belong in the kitchen, not importing
tasks that don't really belong in the kitchen.

Cheers,

Ted

Horse manure?
 

"Ted Byers" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
.. .

I will grant that the
keyboard can be done away with (as can the mouse) by resorting to a touch
screen, but that makes entering a new recipe tedious at best.

I am really trying hard to picture this, Ted. Pizza dough on my fingers,
pizza dough on the screen, chocolate frosting on my fingers...well, you get
the picture. ;-)
--
Reka

I don't give a damn for a man that can only spell a word one way.
Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)
http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.573 / Virus Database: 363 - Release Date: 28.01.04

Horse manure?
 

"Ted Byers" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
.. .

I will grant that the
keyboard can be done away with (as can the mouse) by resorting to a touch
screen, but that makes entering a new recipe tedious at best.

I am really trying hard to picture this, Ted. Pizza dough on my fingers,
pizza dough on the screen, chocolate frosting on my fingers...well, you get
the picture. ;-)
--
Reka

I don't give a damn for a man that can only spell a word one way.
Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)
http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.573 / Virus Database: 363 - Release Date: 28.01.04

Horse manure?
 

"Reka" wrote in message
...

"Ted Byers" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
.. .

I will grant that the
keyboard can be done away with (as can the mouse) by resorting to a
touch
screen, but that makes entering a new recipe tedious at best.

I am really trying hard to picture this, Ted. Pizza dough on my fingers,
pizza dough on the screen, chocolate frosting on my fingers...well, you
get
the picture. ;-)

;-)

You must make some wild pizza! Chocolate frosting? Never heard of THAT on
pizza. And my sister learned how to prepare real Italian cuisine from her
mother-in-law (my brother-in-law's family is from the area near Galabria
(sp.?))! She has made some strange stuff, but nothing quite like that. ;-)
You DO have running water and a sink and towels (or a granny apron would do)
in your kitchen, don't you? ;-)

Cheers,

Ted

Horse manure?
 

"Reka" wrote in message
...

"Ted Byers" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
.. .

I will grant that the
keyboard can be done away with (as can the mouse) by resorting to a
touch
screen, but that makes entering a new recipe tedious at best.

I am really trying hard to picture this, Ted. Pizza dough on my fingers,
pizza dough on the screen, chocolate frosting on my fingers...well, you
get
the picture. ;-)

;-)

You must make some wild pizza! Chocolate frosting? Never heard of THAT on
pizza. And my sister learned how to prepare real Italian cuisine from her
mother-in-law (my brother-in-law's family is from the area near Galabria
(sp.?))! She has made some strange stuff, but nothing quite like that. ;-)
You DO have running water and a sink and towels (or a granny apron would do)
in your kitchen, don't you? ;-)

Cheers,

Ted

Horse manure?
 

"Ted Byers" writes:
computer located in or adjacent to the kitchen. I will grant that the
keyboard can be done away with (as can the mouse) by resorting to a touch
screen, but that makes entering a new recipe tedious at best. With software

You would also need a power washer to clean the gunk off the touch
screen if you are anything like me when cooking.

We have thought along the same lines, by the way. My employer makes a
customizable XML publishing system. I had thought of using that,
interlinking ingredients and categories to make something you can tell
what you have, and get a list of possible recipes along with skill
level needed and preparation time. This would also make it possible to
get derivatives of sauce hollandaise by navigating the "genealogy" of
recipes.

I already have an old laptop I had figured on using as an LCD screen
donor. I don't want a touch screen. I want a touchpad which is easily
detached from the LCD and which can be cleaned by washing under
running water (epoxy is your friend, at least at a steady 22C), chassi
would be a homegrown fibreglass/carbon fibre molding with Daddys
Heatsink on the back, eliminating the need for a fan and the fan
opening, which is a good way for water to get inside. The recipes
would be located on the stationary box, which has a keyboard. IP
interconnection by 802.11b, which just leaves the power cord for the
laptop/webpad thingy. Power outlets are readily available in fully
sealed variants. I don't work designing military electronics any more,
which is a hassle. A handful of weatherproof connectors and a few
metres of sealing gaskets would come in handy. There seems to be no
limit to the amount of money stuff like that can cost when you buy a
few at a time.

The problem is time. The problem is always time.

Geir

Horse manure?
 

"Geir Harris Hedemark" wrote in message
...
"Ted Byers" writes:
computer located in or adjacent to the kitchen. I will grant that the
keyboard can be done away with (as can the mouse) by resorting to a
touch
screen, but that makes entering a new recipe tedious at best. With
software

You would also need a power washer to clean the gunk off the touch
screen if you are anything like me when cooking.

;-)

When I cook, I tend to wash my hands repeatedly, every time I handle a
different food; especially meats. And I clean my work area thoroughly when
I have finished with a major step in a given recipe. I guess that is a
habit learned from Mom.

Alas, I don't do much cooking any more because I like things a little
diverse and interesting but my sister and neice and nephew prefer things I
find bland and won't eat the kinds of things I'd prepare (if I made a meat
sauce for pasta, they won't eat it if I put in garlic or chili or cumin or
mushrooms or beans or onion ...). :-( And I can't be bothered just for
me.

We have thought along the same lines, by the way. My employer makes a
customizable XML publishing system. I had thought of using that,
interlinking ingredients and categories to make something you can tell
what you have, and get a list of possible recipes along with skill
level needed and preparation time. This would also make it possible to
get derivatives of sauce hollandaise by navigating the "genealogy" of
recipes.

The single biggest benefit of my product is that it does a thorough analysis
of the ingredients of a recipe (including especially quantities) in order to
estimate the nutritional properties of the recipe (e.g. calories, fats,
protein, carbohydrates, sodium, &c.) and supports the entry of limits on
nutrient intake (e.g. at least so many grams/day but not more than this
number of grams/day) and food allergies.

I had thought of using XML, but I post-poned that since I didn't want to
take the time to develop fully fledged XML parsing code. XML is easy,
almost as easy as basic HTML, but the code to manage it isn't.

It hadn't occured to me to add the ability to search the recipes on the
basis of an ingredient list, or to add skill level and preparation time as
fields describing a recipe. I think I'll add that, as well as categories,
to the "premium" version of the product. :-) I am intrigued by the notion
of interlinking ingredients and categories, but I haven't yet done an
analysis of that kind of feature so I don't yet have a good idea as to how
to implement it.

I already have an old laptop I had figured on using as an LCD screen
donor. I don't want a touch screen. I want a touchpad which is easily
detached from the LCD and which can be cleaned by washing under
running water (epoxy is your friend, at least at a steady 22C), chassi
would be a homegrown fibreglass/carbon fibre molding with Daddys
Heatsink on the back, eliminating the need for a fan and the fan
opening, which is a good way for water to get inside. The recipes
would be located on the stationary box, which has a keyboard. IP
interconnection by 802.11b, which just leaves the power cord for the
laptop/webpad thingy. Power outlets are readily available in fully
sealed variants. I don't work designing military electronics any more,
which is a hassle. A handful of weatherproof connectors and a few
metres of sealing gaskets would come in handy. There seems to be no
limit to the amount of money stuff like that can cost when you buy a
few at a time.

I don't normally want a touch screen. Using it is usually a royal PITA when
it comes to designing a user friendly interface that doesn't care if there
is a keyboard attached or not.

I like your design, but I don't know enough about hardware to hazard making
one of my own (plus, as a result of a diabetes related neuropathy, I am
slowly losing my manual dexterity). When it comes to hardware, I rely on my
brother-in-law to handle the details.

The problem is time. The problem is always time.

Ah yes. You ARE prone to understatement, aren't you?!?!?! ;-)

Cheers,

Ted

Horse manure?
 

"Geir Harris Hedemark" wrote in message
...
"Ted Byers" writes:
computer located in or adjacent to the kitchen. I will grant that the
keyboard can be done away with (as can the mouse) by resorting to a
touch
screen, but that makes entering a new recipe tedious at best. With
software

You would also need a power washer to clean the gunk off the touch
screen if you are anything like me when cooking.

;-)

When I cook, I tend to wash my hands repeatedly, every time I handle a
different food; especially meats. And I clean my work area thoroughly when
I have finished with a major step in a given recipe. I guess that is a
habit learned from Mom.

Alas, I don't do much cooking any more because I like things a little
diverse and interesting but my sister and neice and nephew prefer things I
find bland and won't eat the kinds of things I'd prepare (if I made a meat
sauce for pasta, they won't eat it if I put in garlic or chili or cumin or
mushrooms or beans or onion ...). :-( And I can't be bothered just for
me.

We have thought along the same lines, by the way. My employer makes a
customizable XML publishing system. I had thought of using that,
interlinking ingredients and categories to make something you can tell
what you have, and get a list of possible recipes along with skill
level needed and preparation time. This would also make it possible to
get derivatives of sauce hollandaise by navigating the "genealogy" of
recipes.

The single biggest benefit of my product is that it does a thorough analysis
of the ingredients of a recipe (including especially quantities) in order to
estimate the nutritional properties of the recipe (e.g. calories, fats,
protein, carbohydrates, sodium, &c.) and supports the entry of limits on
nutrient intake (e.g. at least so many grams/day but not more than this
number of grams/day) and food allergies.

I had thought of using XML, but I post-poned that since I didn't want to
take the time to develop fully fledged XML parsing code. XML is easy,
almost as easy as basic HTML, but the code to manage it isn't.

It hadn't occured to me to add the ability to search the recipes on the
basis of an ingredient list, or to add skill level and preparation time as
fields describing a recipe. I think I'll add that, as well as categories,
to the "premium" version of the product. :-) I am intrigued by the notion
of interlinking ingredients and categories, but I haven't yet done an
analysis of that kind of feature so I don't yet have a good idea as to how
to implement it.

I already have an old laptop I had figured on using as an LCD screen
donor. I don't want a touch screen. I want a touchpad which is easily
detached from the LCD and which can be cleaned by washing under
running water (epoxy is your friend, at least at a steady 22C), chassi
would be a homegrown fibreglass/carbon fibre molding with Daddys
Heatsink on the back, eliminating the need for a fan and the fan
opening, which is a good way for water to get inside. The recipes
would be located on the stationary box, which has a keyboard. IP
interconnection by 802.11b, which just leaves the power cord for the
laptop/webpad thingy. Power outlets are readily available in fully
sealed variants. I don't work designing military electronics any more,
which is a hassle. A handful of weatherproof connectors and a few
metres of sealing gaskets would come in handy. There seems to be no
limit to the amount of money stuff like that can cost when you buy a
few at a time.

I don't normally want a touch screen. Using it is usually a royal PITA when
it comes to designing a user friendly interface that doesn't care if there
is a keyboard attached or not.

I like your design, but I don't know enough about hardware to hazard making
one of my own (plus, as a result of a diabetes related neuropathy, I am
slowly losing my manual dexterity). When it comes to hardware, I rely on my
brother-in-law to handle the details.

The problem is time. The problem is always time.

Ah yes. You ARE prone to understatement, aren't you?!?!?! ;-)

Cheers,

Ted

Horse manure?
 

"Ted Byers" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
.. .

"Reka" wrote in message
...

"Ted Byers" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
.. .

I will grant that the
keyboard can be done away with (as can the mouse) by resorting to a
touch
screen, but that makes entering a new recipe tedious at best.

I am really trying hard to picture this, Ted. Pizza dough on my
fingers,
pizza dough on the screen, chocolate frosting on my fingers...well, you
get
the picture. ;-)

;-)

You must make some wild pizza! Chocolate frosting? Never heard of THAT
on
pizza. And my sister learned how to prepare real Italian cuisine from her
mother-in-law (my brother-in-law's family is from the area near Galabria
(sp.?))! She has made some strange stuff, but nothing quite like that.
;-)
You DO have running water and a sink and towels (or a granny apron would
do)
in your kitchen, don't you? ;-)

Silly! I didn't mean all at the same time! I even have a microwave, so
there! ;-)
--
Reka

I don't give a damn for a man that can only spell a word one way.
Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)
http://www.rolbox.it/hukari/index.html



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.573 / Virus Database: 363 - Release Date: 28.01.04

Horse manure?
 

"Ted Byers" writes:
When I cook, I tend to wash my hands repeatedly, every time I handle a
different food; especially meats. And I clean my work area thoroughly when

And what do you do when you are handling a dough? You can't keep
washing your hands every time you touch it, can you?

Alas, I don't do much cooking any more because I like things a little
diverse and interesting but my sister and neice and nephew prefer things I
find bland and won't eat the kinds of things I'd prepare (if I made a meat
sauce for pasta, they won't eat it if I put in garlic or chili or cumin or
mushrooms or beans or onion ...). :-( And I can't be bothered just for
me.

Not even onions? You _are_ in trouble.

The single biggest benefit of my product is that it does a thorough analysis
of the ingredients of a recipe (including especially quantities) in order to
estimate the nutritional properties of the recipe (e.g. calories, fats,
protein, carbohydrates, sodium, &c.) and supports the entry of limits on
nutrient intake (e.g. at least so many grams/day but not more than this
number of grams/day) and food allergies.

I can't see why I need this function, but I may of course be wrong. I
eat more or less whatever I want. Luckily, I am fond of healthy
food. If I had liked chips, french fries or other fatty foods, I would
be in trouble.

I had thought of using XML, but I post-poned that since I didn't want to
take the time to develop fully fledged XML parsing code. XML is easy,
almost as easy as basic HTML, but the code to manage it isn't.

This is why people use things like xerces, xalan, xpath and the
like. You do _not_ want to write your own parser. I like the ability
to be able to say "give me the nodes that has a "keywords" element
attached containing a "keyword" element with the word "indian" in it".

There are no production-quality (as I define production-quality) free
as in beer XML databases out there yet. This is probably the biggest
problem to my solution. Xindice is getting close. Hibernate may help
out, though, but I would think there is a need to serialize the xml to
text for storage. I haven't tried yet. YMMV.

My opinions may be skewed. We are an all-objects, all-xml shop. :)

Geir

Horse manure?
 

Maybe I got lucky, or have weird kids - mine wouldn't even touch most meats
until I started going nuts with garlic....

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

.. . . . . . . . . . .
"Ted Byers" wrote in message
.. .

"Geir Harris Hedemark" wrote in message
...
"Ted Byers" writes:
computer located in or adjacent to the kitchen. I will grant that the
keyboard can be done away with (as can the mouse) by resorting to a
touch
screen, but that makes entering a new recipe tedious at best. With
software

You would also need a power washer to clean the gunk off the touch
screen if you are anything like me when cooking.

;-)

When I cook, I tend to wash my hands repeatedly, every time I handle a
different food; especially meats. And I clean my work area thoroughly
when
I have finished with a major step in a given recipe. I guess that is a
habit learned from Mom.

Alas, I don't do much cooking any more because I like things a little
diverse and interesting but my sister and neice and nephew prefer things I
find bland and won't eat the kinds of things I'd prepare (if I made a meat
sauce for pasta, they won't eat it if I put in garlic or chili or cumin or
mushrooms or beans or onion ...). :-( And I can't be bothered just
for
me.

We have thought along the same lines, by the way. My employer makes a
customizable XML publishing system. I had thought of using that,
interlinking ingredients and categories to make something you can tell
what you have, and get a list of possible recipes along with skill
level needed and preparation time. This would also make it possible to
get derivatives of sauce hollandaise by navigating the "genealogy" of
recipes.

The single biggest benefit of my product is that it does a thorough
analysis
of the ingredients of a recipe (including especially quantities) in order
to
estimate the nutritional properties of the recipe (e.g. calories, fats,
protein, carbohydrates, sodium, &c.) and supports the entry of limits on
nutrient intake (e.g. at least so many grams/day but not more than this
number of grams/day) and food allergies.

I had thought of using XML, but I post-poned that since I didn't want to
take the time to develop fully fledged XML parsing code. XML is easy,
almost as easy as basic HTML, but the code to manage it isn't.

It hadn't occured to me to add the ability to search the recipes on the
basis of an ingredient list, or to add skill level and preparation time as
fields describing a recipe. I think I'll add that, as well as categories,
to the "premium" version of the product. :-) I am intrigued by the
notion
of interlinking ingredients and categories, but I haven't yet done an
analysis of that kind of feature so I don't yet have a good idea as to how
to implement it.

I already have an old laptop I had figured on using as an LCD screen
donor. I don't want a touch screen. I want a touchpad which is easily
detached from the LCD and which can be cleaned by washing under
running water (epoxy is your friend, at least at a steady 22C), chassi
would be a homegrown fibreglass/carbon fibre molding with Daddys
Heatsink on the back, eliminating the need for a fan and the fan
opening, which is a good way for water to get inside. The recipes
would be located on the stationary box, which has a keyboard. IP
interconnection by 802.11b, which just leaves the power cord for the
laptop/webpad thingy. Power outlets are readily available in fully
sealed variants. I don't work designing military electronics any more,
which is a hassle. A handful of weatherproof connectors and a few
metres of sealing gaskets would come in handy. There seems to be no
limit to the amount of money stuff like that can cost when you buy a
few at a time.

I don't normally want a touch screen. Using it is usually a royal PITA
when
it comes to designing a user friendly interface that doesn't care if there
is a keyboard attached or not.

I like your design, but I don't know enough about hardware to hazard
making
one of my own (plus, as a result of a diabetes related neuropathy, I am
slowly losing my manual dexterity). When it comes to hardware, I rely on
my
brother-in-law to handle the details.

The problem is time. The problem is always time.

Ah yes. You ARE prone to understatement, aren't you?!?!?! ;-)

Cheers,

Ted

Horse manure?
 

Maybe I got lucky, or have weird kids - mine wouldn't even touch most meats
until I started going nuts with garlic....

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

.. . . . . . . . . . .
"Ted Byers" wrote in message
.. .

"Geir Harris Hedemark" wrote in message
...
"Ted Byers" writes:
computer located in or adjacent to the kitchen. I will grant that the
keyboard can be done away with (as can the mouse) by resorting to a
touch
screen, but that makes entering a new recipe tedious at best. With
software

You would also need a power washer to clean the gunk off the touch
screen if you are anything like me when cooking.

;-)

When I cook, I tend to wash my hands repeatedly, every time I handle a
different food; especially meats. And I clean my work area thoroughly
when
I have finished with a major step in a given recipe. I guess that is a
habit learned from Mom.

Alas, I don't do much cooking any more because I like things a little
diverse and interesting but my sister and neice and nephew prefer things I
find bland and won't eat the kinds of things I'd prepare (if I made a meat
sauce for pasta, they won't eat it if I put in garlic or chili or cumin or
mushrooms or beans or onion ...). :-( And I can't be bothered just
for
me.

We have thought along the same lines, by the way. My employer makes a
customizable XML publishing system. I had thought of using that,
interlinking ingredients and categories to make something you can tell
what you have, and get a list of possible recipes along with skill
level needed and preparation time. This would also make it possible to
get derivatives of sauce hollandaise by navigating the "genealogy" of
recipes.

The single biggest benefit of my product is that it does a thorough
analysis
of the ingredients of a recipe (including especially quantities) in order
to
estimate the nutritional properties of the recipe (e.g. calories, fats,
protein, carbohydrates, sodium, &c.) and supports the entry of limits on
nutrient intake (e.g. at least so many grams/day but not more than this
number of grams/day) and food allergies.

I had thought of using XML, but I post-poned that since I didn't want to
take the time to develop fully fledged XML parsing code. XML is easy,
almost as easy as basic HTML, but the code to manage it isn't.

It hadn't occured to me to add the ability to search the recipes on the
basis of an ingredient list, or to add skill level and preparation time as
fields describing a recipe. I think I'll add that, as well as categories,
to the "premium" version of the product. :-) I am intrigued by the
notion
of interlinking ingredients and categories, but I haven't yet done an
analysis of that kind of feature so I don't yet have a good idea as to how
to implement it.

I already have an old laptop I had figured on using as an LCD screen
donor. I don't want a touch screen. I want a touchpad which is easily
detached from the LCD and which can be cleaned by washing under
running water (epoxy is your friend, at least at a steady 22C), chassi
would be a homegrown fibreglass/carbon fibre molding with Daddys
Heatsink on the back, eliminating the need for a fan and the fan
opening, which is a good way for water to get inside. The recipes
would be located on the stationary box, which has a keyboard. IP
interconnection by 802.11b, which just leaves the power cord for the
laptop/webpad thingy. Power outlets are readily available in fully
sealed variants. I don't work designing military electronics any more,
which is a hassle. A handful of weatherproof connectors and a few
metres of sealing gaskets would come in handy. There seems to be no
limit to the amount of money stuff like that can cost when you buy a
few at a time.

I don't normally want a touch screen. Using it is usually a royal PITA
when
it comes to designing a user friendly interface that doesn't care if there
is a keyboard attached or not.

I like your design, but I don't know enough about hardware to hazard
making
one of my own (plus, as a result of a diabetes related neuropathy, I am
slowly losing my manual dexterity). When it comes to hardware, I rely on
my
brother-in-law to handle the details.

The problem is time. The problem is always time.

Ah yes. You ARE prone to understatement, aren't you?!?!?! ;-)

Cheers,

Ted

Horse manure?
 

Maybe I got lucky, or have weird kids - mine wouldn't even touch most meats
until I started going nuts with garlic....

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

.. . . . . . . . . . .
"Ted Byers" wrote in message
.. .

"Geir Harris Hedemark" wrote in message
...
"Ted Byers" writes:
computer located in or adjacent to the kitchen. I will grant that the
keyboard can be done away with (as can the mouse) by resorting to a
touch
screen, but that makes entering a new recipe tedious at best. With
software

You would also need a power washer to clean the gunk off the touch
screen if you are anything like me when cooking.

;-)

When I cook, I tend to wash my hands repeatedly, every time I handle a
different food; especially meats. And I clean my work area thoroughly
when
I have finished with a major step in a given recipe. I guess that is a
habit learned from Mom.

Alas, I don't do much cooking any more because I like things a little
diverse and interesting but my sister and neice and nephew prefer things I
find bland and won't eat the kinds of things I'd prepare (if I made a meat
sauce for pasta, they won't eat it if I put in garlic or chili or cumin or
mushrooms or beans or onion ...). :-( And I can't be bothered just
for
me.

We have thought along the same lines, by the way. My employer makes a
customizable XML publishing system. I had thought of using that,
interlinking ingredients and categories to make something you can tell
what you have, and get a list of possible recipes along with skill
level needed and preparation time. This would also make it possible to
get derivatives of sauce hollandaise by navigating the "genealogy" of
recipes.

The single biggest benefit of my product is that it does a thorough
analysis
of the ingredients of a recipe (including especially quantities) in order
to
estimate the nutritional properties of the recipe (e.g. calories, fats,
protein, carbohydrates, sodium, &c.) and supports the entry of limits on
nutrient intake (e.g. at least so many grams/day but not more than this
number of grams/day) and food allergies.

I had thought of using XML, but I post-poned that since I didn't want to
take the time to develop fully fledged XML parsing code. XML is easy,
almost as easy as basic HTML, but the code to manage it isn't.

It hadn't occured to me to add the ability to search the recipes on the
basis of an ingredient list, or to add skill level and preparation time as
fields describing a recipe. I think I'll add that, as well as categories,
to the "premium" version of the product. :-) I am intrigued by the
notion
of interlinking ingredients and categories, but I haven't yet done an
analysis of that kind of feature so I don't yet have a good idea as to how
to implement it.

I already have an old laptop I had figured on using as an LCD screen
donor. I don't want a touch screen. I want a touchpad which is easily
detached from the LCD and which can be cleaned by washing under
running water (epoxy is your friend, at least at a steady 22C), chassi
would be a homegrown fibreglass/carbon fibre molding with Daddys
Heatsink on the back, eliminating the need for a fan and the fan
opening, which is a good way for water to get inside. The recipes
would be located on the stationary box, which has a keyboard. IP
interconnection by 802.11b, which just leaves the power cord for the
laptop/webpad thingy. Power outlets are readily available in fully
sealed variants. I don't work designing military electronics any more,
which is a hassle. A handful of weatherproof connectors and a few
metres of sealing gaskets would come in handy. There seems to be no
limit to the amount of money stuff like that can cost when you buy a
few at a time.

I don't normally want a touch screen. Using it is usually a royal PITA
when
it comes to designing a user friendly interface that doesn't care if there
is a keyboard attached or not.

I like your design, but I don't know enough about hardware to hazard
making
one of my own (plus, as a result of a diabetes related neuropathy, I am
slowly losing my manual dexterity). When it comes to hardware, I rely on
my
brother-in-law to handle the details.

The problem is time. The problem is always time.

Ah yes. You ARE prone to understatement, aren't you?!?!?! ;-)

Cheers,

Ted

Horse manure?
 

"Geir Harris Hedemark" wrote in message
...
"Ted Byers" writes:
When I cook, I tend to wash my hands repeatedly, every time I handle a
different food; especially meats. And I clean my work area thoroughly
when

And what do you do when you are handling a dough? You can't keep
washing your hands every time you touch it, can you?

No. But I work in the kitchen in a manner similar to how I used to work in
a wet lab. I'd have everything that I need paid out in an orderly fashion,
wash my hands before beginning a given procedure, start and finish the
procedure, and then wash my hands again. I almost never interrupt a given
procedure, but if it is necessary, I'd wash my hands before and after the
interruption also. One of the advantages of working in a wetlab was that
interruptions are not tolerable (at least in most situations I have seen)
and no-one interrupts because everyone there knows that any interruption in
many procedures will result in the entire effort being scrapped and started
over.

Alas, I don't do much cooking any more because I like things a little
diverse and interesting but my sister and neice and nephew prefer things
I
find bland and won't eat the kinds of things I'd prepare (if I made a
meat
sauce for pasta, they won't eat it if I put in garlic or chili or cumin
or
mushrooms or beans or onion ...). :-( And I can't be bothered just
for
me.

Not even onions? You _are_ in trouble.

Yep. But I suspect it is, in part, a consequence of how their father's
mother cooks. You wouldn't believe some of the aweful things she prepares.
But to be fair, there are some things she prepares that are quite nice.
They're just fewer in number than the disgusting things she'd feed the kids.

Sometimes there's reasons why a kid is finicky. And my sister is rather
indulgent.

The single biggest benefit of my product is that it does a thorough
analysis
of the ingredients of a recipe (including especially quantities) in
order to
estimate the nutritional properties of the recipe (e.g. calories, fats,
protein, carbohydrates, sodium, &c.) and supports the entry of limits on
nutrient intake (e.g. at least so many grams/day but not more than this
number of grams/day) and food allergies.

I can't see why I need this function, but I may of course be wrong. I
eat more or less whatever I want. Luckily, I am fond of healthy
food. If I had liked chips, french fries or other fatty foods, I would
be in trouble.

I became aware of it as a consequence of being diabetic. While there are
now some cookbooks with recipes where some of this information is provided,
they are of no help with things like Grandma's favourite butter tart recipe,
or with my efforts to modify it so that the revised version doesn't put my
blood sugar ten times higher than it is supposed to be. And on checking, I
found plenty of other health issues affected by diet. Then I recalled that
my mother had trouble finding and preparing foods that my father could eat
(because he was often ill, and had chronic problems greatly influenced by
diet). She would complain that she didn't know what or how to cook for him
because it seemed that no matter what she prepared, someone told her that he
couldn't eat it because it was bad for him. It seemed to me that if she had
had a product like this, and obtained instructions from her physician
regarding what the minimum and maximum daily intake for each nutrient should
be given Dad's health, she could rather easily find recipes and construct
meal plans that would have met Dad's dietary needs. But in adition to those
who have diet related health issues, there are increasing numbers of people
taking steps toward improved health by taking some preventative measures
such as exercising and studying healthy eating (according to the latest data
I saw, some 80% of folk in north america have done something along this line
in the past year). Many people may not need such a feature, but it seems
there are plenty of people who would be interested in it.

I had thought of using XML, but I post-poned that since I didn't want to
take the time to develop fully fledged XML parsing code. XML is easy,
almost as easy as basic HTML, but the code to manage it isn't.

This is why people use things like xerces, xalan, xpath and the
like. You do _not_ want to write your own parser. I like the ability
to be able to say "give me the nodes that has a "keywords" element
attached containing a "keyword" element with the word "indian" in it".

There are no production-quality (as I define production-quality) free
as in beer XML databases out there yet. This is probably the biggest
problem to my solution. Xindice is getting close. Hibernate may help
out, though, but I would think there is a need to serialize the xml to
text for storage. I haven't tried yet. YMMV.

My opinions may be skewed. We are an all-objects, all-xml shop. :)

Isn't everyone's? Almost all of the development I have done in recent years
has been in C++ and very object oriented. I do do some structured and
procedural programming when the occassion calls for it, but most of that is
now deeply embedded in some class. While I am very familiar with VB and
Java, I find the object model in VB seriously broken and the Java runtime a
major performance problem (but Java is a very interesting language - it just
doesn't have much utility in the kinds of programming I do).

Are you familiar with SQL? If so, how would an XML database provide an
advantage over combining SQL with C++ and perhaps COM/DCOM? I can see how
one can relatively easily find all objects satisfying your search criterion
using SQL and C++ and a suitable class inheritance tree (and one of the
things making it easy is the availability of the STL in C++ and the power of
SQL).

Cheers,

Ted

Horse manure?
 

"Ted Byers" writes:
interruptions are not tolerable (at least in most situations I have seen)
and no-one interrupts because everyone there knows that any interruption in
many procedures will result in the entire effort being scrapped and started
over.

You must be fond of souffles.

they are of no help with things like Grandma's favourite butter tart recipe,
or with my efforts to modify it so that the revised version doesn't put my
blood sugar ten times higher than it is supposed to be. And on checking, I

I guess you have a problem with the apples themselves, then.

diet). She would complain that she didn't know what or how to cook for him
because it seemed that no matter what she prepared, someone told her that he
couldn't eat it because it was bad for him. It seemed to me that if she had
had a product like this, and obtained instructions from her physician
regarding what the minimum and maximum daily intake for each nutrient should
be given Dad's health, she could rather easily find recipes and construct
meal plans that would have met Dad's dietary needs. But in adition to those

You are now assuming that we know the full and final truth about
nutritional needs.

If you look ten years back in time, it is easy to see how things have
progressed. I can't see any reason why todays answers aren't wrong
tomorrow.

This is why I think most people should eat a varied diet. People who
tell you to eat something or other usually have a book to sell.

Isn't everyone's? Almost all of the development I have done in recent years
has been in C++ and very object oriented. I do do some structured and

C++ went out of style around here in the early 1990s. Come to think of
it, it never really took off. Awful language, by the way. It feels
like C with a huge great big roof rack on top where are the objects
are kept, making the whole thing waddle through corners.

Java, I find the object model in VB seriously broken and the Java runtime a
major performance problem (but Java is a very interesting language - it just
doesn't have much utility in the kinds of programming I do).

Performance problem? Strange. I can't see more than a 10 or 20%
degradation over using vanilla C. CPUs are inexpensive. Out-of-control
pointer bugs are not.

I wouldn't use Java for low-level OS stuff. For a recipe database, I
think it is a good match. That may be because I use Java every day.

Are you familiar with SQL? If so, how would an XML database provide an
advantage over combining SQL with C++ and perhaps COM/DCOM? I can see how

The query bits of SQL is a relational query language. If something
can't be expressed in terms of static relations, you are out of luck.

The inverse problem also applies - XML is, IMNSHO, truly awful at
efficient static relations.

XQuery may be what XML bigots are waiting for. I am not holding my
breath. I will build the best solutions I can right now with the tools
that are available.

one can relatively easily find all objects satisfying your search criterion
using SQL and C++ and a suitable class inheritance tree (and one of the
things making it easy is the availability of the STL in C++ and the power of
SQL).

How do you propose to do this while at the same time allowing the
user to define his own relations? You place some constraints on the
top-level nodes ("I want a keywords node around here somewhere if it
exists") the rest is left as a user-defined application space.

I sincerely hope you are not telling me you want to create tables for
every node the user may want to dream up on the fly. That
would be maintenance hell.

Many people split things. The topmost information is kept in
relational tables, the rest is put into blobs or object databases as
XML or something else that may be adapted by the user.

Geir

Horse manure?
 

"Geir Harris Hedemark" wrote in message
...
"Ted Byers" writes:
interruptions are not tolerable (at least in most situations I have
seen)
and no-one interrupts because everyone there knows that any interruption
in
many procedures will result in the entire effort being scrapped and
started
over.

You must be fond of souffles.

Can't say that I've tried them. But there are a geat many things, both in
the kitchen and in the wetlab, where an interruption can cause trouble. In
the kitchen, one of the common consequences of interruptions is that the
item burned.

they are of no help with things like Grandma's favourite butter tart
recipe,
or with my efforts to modify it so that the revised version doesn't put
my
blood sugar ten times higher than it is supposed to be. And on
checking, I

I guess you have a problem with the apples themselves, then.

Actually, I have to watch almost all fruits because of their sugar content,
as well as starchy foods (almost all root crops) because of their starch.
Beets are so high in sugar and starch that I can almost never have them, and
I love them. Nothing is trictly forbidden, but quantities haveto be vry
carefully controlled.

diet). She would complain that she didn't know what or how to cook for
him
because it seemed that no matter what she prepared, someone told her
that he
couldn't eat it because it was bad for him. It seemed to me that if she
had
had a product like this, and obtained instructions from her physician
regarding what the minimum and maximum daily intake for each nutrient
should
be given Dad's health, she could rather easily find recipes and
construct
meal plans that would have met Dad's dietary needs. But in adition to
those

You are now assuming that we know the full and final truth about
nutritional needs.

No I don't.

I assume only that the measurements that have been taken of nutrient content
for a given food are reasonably accurate. It is to be expected that there
will be some error in them, though. So we're talking about estimates; not
claims that a given number represents "the TRUTH" with respect to the
nutrient content in a given food.

If you look ten years back in time, it is easy to see how things have
progressed. I can't see any reason why todays answers aren't wrong
tomorrow.

When it gets right down to it, todays answers are wrong today! The
existence of error in empirical data is inevitable. But that doesn't mean
we don't try to do the best we can with the data presently available.

This is why I think most people should eat a varied diet. People who
tell you to eat something or other usually have a book to sell.

You are quite right. A varied diet is indispensible.

This isn't an effort to tell anyone what to eat or not eat.

Rather, it is only to provide the best available information about the
nutrient content of given foods.

It is up to the individual to get advice from his primary health care
provider as to what the daily recommended intake ought to be for each
nutrient; and I have no doubt that that advice will change through time, but
that does not affect how my product would, or could, be used. In fact, I am
planning a custom version for the health care industry in which the user can
maintain a log of what is eaten, what medication is taken, what kinds of
health issues have arisen and when and for how long, &c., so that primary
health care providers can have sufficient data to examine how a given
patient responds to given foods and medications and combinations thereof.

Isn't everyone's? Almost all of the development I have done in recent
years
has been in C++ and very object oriented. I do do some structured and

C++ went out of style around here in the early 1990s. Come to think of
it, it never really took off. Awful language, by the way. It feels
like C with a huge great big roof rack on top where are the objects
are kept, making the whole thing waddle through corners.

That is debatable. I don't mind C either. Like all languages, there are
nasty synactic corners, but overall, it is the most useful language I have
studied, with Perl being a close second.

Java, I find the object model in VB seriously broken and the Java
runtime a
major performance problem (but Java is a very interesting language - it
just
doesn't have much utility in the kinds of programming I do).

Performance problem? Strange. I can't see more than a 10 or 20%
degradation over using vanilla C. CPUs are inexpensive. Out-of-control
pointer bugs are not.

That depends very much on what you're doing. The bulk of my work has
involved intensive number crunching and simulation modelling. Between the
overhead of the runtime and the programming idioms supported, I have
personally observed improvement in performance, WRT a JAVA version of a
product, of a factor of well over 100: simulations that took several hours
in the Java version ran to completion in seconds when I reimplemented the
program in C++. One of the big factors proved to be supported idioms;
idioms that could be used trivially easily that would have been quite
painful to adapt to Java. Yes, I know both Java and C++ are Turing
complete, so anything that can be done in one can be done in the other in
theory, but that sidesteps the important issue practicability.

If I were developing a distributed database application, the runtime
overhead would probably not be an issue for a network or website that
doesn't see enormous amounts of traffic.

If a given application has out of control pointer bugs, that speaks directly
to the competence of the team that developed it; not the utility of being
able to use pointers.

I wouldn't use Java for low-level OS stuff. For a recipe database, I
think it is a good match. That may be because I use Java every day.

That is quite possible.

Please note I am NOT saying that Java is a bad language; only that it isn't
appropriate for most of the development I do.

As a point of fact, I am looking at a new database development that will
likely use Java applets for client side processing and PHP+SQL for server
side processing, along with some server side development using either C++ or
fortran (for the number crunching requirements). This project is, in fact,
a database that will include a substantial amount of orchid data (along with
comparable data for all other plants as well as animals).

Are you familiar with SQL? If so, how would an XML database provide an
advantage over combining SQL with C++ and perhaps COM/DCOM? I can see
how

The query bits of SQL is a relational query language. If something
can't be expressed in terms of static relations, you are out of luck.

The inverse problem also applies - XML is, IMNSHO, truly awful at
efficient static relations.

OK, so a little multiparadigm analysis will show that for one part of a
given development, one would use SQL and XML for a different part of it;
given their current strengths and weaknesses. I have no qualms about mixed
language development.

one can relatively easily find all objects satisfying your search
criterion
using SQL and C++ and a suitable class inheritance tree (and one of the
things making it easy is the availability of the STL in C++ and the
power of
SQL).

How do you propose to do this while at the same time allowing the
user to define his own relations? You place some constraints on the
top-level nodes ("I want a keywords node around here somewhere if it
exists") the rest is left as a user-defined application space.

This really isn't an onerous problem. It just takes careful design;
something I have plenty of experience with. Some of my more successful
applications not oly supported but required theuser to establish
relationships for themselves. A careful analysis of what is required (along
with the features of, and idioms supported by, C++ ;-) would show how
simple this really is. In this case, the static relations would be
maintained using SQL, and the dynamic ones by C++. I haven't done the
analysis required to know if what is to be done here using C++ could in
principle be supported by SQL with a suitable abstraction.

I sincerely hope you are not telling me you want to create tables for
every node the user may want to dream up on the fly. That
would be maintenance hell.

Nope! Not a chance! But tables are not the only tool in the toolbox.

Many people split things. The topmost information is kept in
relational tables, the rest is put into blobs or object databases as
XML or something else that may be adapted by the user.

The very act that some relational information might be stored in blobs or
object databases suggests a possible approach to using a mixture of C++ and
SQL to obtain the functionality you require.

These issues are faced in the interaction between orchid growers and
taxonomists all the time when the latter decide to cause us trouble by
changing how species are classified. Relationships are changed, and so hard
coding such information is problematic. I have an advantage in this because
of the importance of numerical taxonomy in my background. But there are
ways around dynamic relationships, even if one is using the mix of languages
I intend to use in my next database project.

Cheers,

Ted

Horse manure?
 

"Ted Byers" writes:
It is up to the individual to get advice from his primary health care
provider as to what the daily recommended intake ought to be for each

In my case, my doctor also tries to sell me books and
stories. *grumble*

He _will_ be swapped for someone else if I actually need serious
medical care.

That is debatable. I don't mind C either. Like all languages, there are
nasty synactic corners, but overall, it is the most useful language I have
studied, with Perl being a close second.

Perl is nice for small scale stuff that needs to be done in a
hurry. We were in for quite a ride when we tried to do a 2000+ line
publication engine in it.

I cut my teeth on Simula. Ole Johan Dahl and Kristen Nygaard were some
of my tutors. That may have caused my innate hate of all things
C++-ish.

Performance problem? Strange. I can't see more than a 10 or 20%
degradation over using vanilla C. CPUs are inexpensive. Out-of-control
pointer bugs are not.
That depends very much on what you're doing. The bulk of my work has
involved intensive number crunching and simulation modelling. Between the

In that case, Java is out. No discussion.

painful to adapt to Java. Yes, I know both Java and C++ are Turing
complete, so anything that can be done in one can be done in the other in
theory, but that sidesteps the important issue practicability.

Yes, they are theoretically equivalent, but not necessarily in the
same time frame. :)

As a point of fact, I am looking at a new database development that will
likely use Java applets for client side processing and PHP+SQL for server

I don't envy you that task. Applets are notoriously hard to do in such
a way that they actually work consistently with what passes for
browsers in Redmond and elsewhere.

Geir

Horse manure?
 

"Geir Harris Hedemark" wrote in message
...
"Ted Byers" writes:
It is up to the individual to get advice from his primary health care
provider as to what the daily recommended intake ought to be for each

In my case, my doctor also tries to sell me books and
stories. *grumble*

He _will_ be swapped for someone else if I actually need serious
medical care.

This presupposes there are doctors available who are taking on new patients.
My diabetes is being taken care of by the specialist who made the diagnosis
yeas ago because I have yet to find a doctor in this area who is taking on
new patients.

That is debatable. I don't mind C either. Like all languages, there
are
nasty synactic corners, but overall, it is the most useful language I
have
studied, with Perl being a close second.

Perl is nice for small scale stuff that needs to be done in a
hurry. We were in for quite a ride when we tried to do a 2000+ line
publication engine in it.


Is that all? ;-) The smallest commercial application I have worked on
required 20,000+ LOC, while 100,000 is more typical. You must have had
quite the library to be able to do something with so little code! Come to
think of it, it seems to me that the library that comes with the latest
version of Perl is quite large: a great many more features than anythng
shipped with any C++ compiler.

I cut my teeth on Simula. Ole Johan Dahl and Kristen Nygaard were some
of my tutors. That may have caused my innate hate of all things
C++-ish.

;-)

While I DO do comparisons of languages, for the purpose of multiparadigm
development, I tend to avoid language wars since every computer programming
language I have seen has its uses. EVEN VB has a role as a pwerful
scripting language for MS Office. But it doesn't have a significant role
elsewhere, IMHO.

[snip]
painful to adapt to Java. Yes, I know both Java and C++ are Turing
complete, so anything that can be done in one can be done in the other
in
theory, but that sidesteps the important issue practicability.

Yes, they are theoretically equivalent, but not necessarily in the
same time frame. :)

Yes, everything that can be done in C++ can be done in assembler, but the
project I finished last year (after three years, and six man-years of
effort) would probably not have been completed in my lifetime had anyone
been silly enough to try to develop it in assembler. But that project has
so far brought to the company for which I developed it over $800,000 since
it was finished, and at least another $700,000 is expected from it this
year.

As a point of fact, I am looking at a new database development that will
likely use Java applets for client side processing and PHP+SQL for
server

I don't envy you that task. Applets are notoriously hard to do in such
a way that they actually work consistently with what passes for
browsers in Redmond and elsewhere.

Alas, my options are limited. I like VBScript and JScript even less than
VB. And ActiveX controls in a web page are problematic since so many of
them introduce major security risks. What else is there for client side
processing? While I don't LIKE the idea, I see no opton other than to test
for the version of the Java runtime on the client machine and, if it is too
old, direct the user to keep the version of the runtime he's using up to
date. At least with Java, I don't have to worry about whether or not the
user is running Windows or Linux or something else.

Cheers,

Ted