Hi all,

I am wondering what people do for preemptive critter and crud prevention.

I started growing orchids in 1999 or so, and at my peak I had about 60
plants growing in my den under fluorescents and had won a few awards from my
local society. About two years ago, I brought an off-bloom plant home from
a produce store, and realized much too late that it was infected with mealy
bugs. I was unable to control the critters (hesitant to use potent
chemicals because I grow indoors), and after a long infestation, I declared
"uncle" and reluctantly got rid of my collection.

Sigh.

Fortunately, I got a nice bonus from my current client, and was able to
start a new collection this winrer. Currently, I have about thirty NBS/BS
plants (phals, milts, and phrags) in the same den.

This weekend, I was watering my plants and noticed some crud growing in a
pot (it was a white hairy mold, but I'm not sure exactly what it was) that
some 1t/G Physan took care of. When I was looking at another plant, I
thought I saw baby mealy bugs (*^$$&&!), but my 18x loupe just revealed the
I am just paranoid (but I am picking up my low-power stereo microscope from
my mom just to be sure).

Let me reinforce the fact that I am a bit paranoid about Critters and Crud
right infecting my orchids. What is the orchid equivalent of a tinfoil hat?
Bathe in neem-oil?

I am curious as to what people do for preemptive plant maintianence for_
indoor_ growing. I could fog my den with a combo of Orthene, Dianazin, and
Malthalion and water with 100% Physan, but that is a bit overkill. My
primary concerns are human/cat health (ie, non-death) and preventing
breeding super bugs / super mold), but I would like to do my best to prevent
future problems.

Thoughts? Thanks.

--Matt

Matt,

Generally speaking, preventive chemical applications are to be avoided, as they lead to the
development of resistant strains of bugs.

The best preemptive moves, in my opinion, are good observational skills and attentiveness. Do a
periodic close inspection of your collection. It will allow you to see such problems as they
develop and take quick, but minor action to get rid of the problem.

I find it good to keep a spray bottle of a general purpose, but relatively innocuous stuff handy on
those inspections - I use Rise & Shine as it kills almost anything and shines the leaves while
you're at it, but I know the manufacturer, so get a great price! Prior to coming up with that, I
had a two-weapon arsenal - a spray bottle each of pure isopropanol and liquid dishwashing detergent
in water.

The white stuff in the medium sounds like it might be a fungus growing in decomposing medium, a
fairly sure sign that it's time to repot!

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

.. . . . . . . . . . .
"Matthew Donadio" wrote in message ...
Hi all,

I am wondering what people do for preemptive critter and crud prevention.

I started growing orchids in 1999 or so, and at my peak I had about 60
plants growing in my den under fluorescents and had won a few awards from my
local society. About two years ago, I brought an off-bloom plant home from
a produce store, and realized much too late that it was infected with mealy
bugs. I was unable to control the critters (hesitant to use potent
chemicals because I grow indoors), and after a long infestation, I declared
"uncle" and reluctantly got rid of my collection.

Sigh.

Fortunately, I got a nice bonus from my current client, and was able to
start a new collection this winrer. Currently, I have about thirty NBS/BS
plants (phals, milts, and phrags) in the same den.

This weekend, I was watering my plants and noticed some crud growing in a
pot (it was a white hairy mold, but I'm not sure exactly what it was) that
some 1t/G Physan took care of. When I was looking at another plant, I
thought I saw baby mealy bugs (*^$$&&!), but my 18x loupe just revealed the
I am just paranoid (but I am picking up my low-power stereo microscope from
my mom just to be sure).

Let me reinforce the fact that I am a bit paranoid about Critters and Crud
right infecting my orchids. What is the orchid equivalent of a tinfoil hat?
Bathe in neem-oil?

I am curious as to what people do for preemptive plant maintianence for_
indoor_ growing. I could fog my den with a combo of Orthene, Dianazin, and
Malthalion and water with 100% Physan, but that is a bit overkill. My
primary concerns are human/cat health (ie, non-death) and preventing
breeding super bugs / super mold), but I would like to do my best to prevent
future problems.

Thoughts? Thanks.

--Matt

Ray,

Does the alcohol kill the eggs from scale and other critters?

Bob

"Ray" wrote in message
...
Matt,

Generally speaking, preventive chemical applications are to be avoided, as
they lead to the
development of resistant strains of bugs.

The best preemptive moves, in my opinion, are good observational skills
and attentiveness. Do a
periodic close inspection of your collection. It will allow you to see
such problems as they
develop and take quick, but minor action to get rid of the problem.

I find it good to keep a spray bottle of a general purpose, but relatively
innocuous stuff handy on
those inspections - I use Rise & Shine as it kills almost anything and
shines the leaves while
you're at it, but I know the manufacturer, so get a great price! Prior to
coming up with that, I
had a two-weapon arsenal - a spray bottle each of pure isopropanol and
liquid dishwashing detergent
in water.

The white stuff in the medium sounds like it might be a fungus growing in
decomposing medium, a
fairly sure sign that it's time to repot!

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

. . . . . . . . . . .
"Matthew Donadio" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

I am wondering what people do for preemptive critter and crud
prevention.

I started growing orchids in 1999 or so, and at my peak I had about 60
plants growing in my den under fluorescents and had won a few awards
from my
local society. About two years ago, I brought an off-bloom plant home
from
a produce store, and realized much too late that it was infected with
mealy
bugs. I was unable to control the critters (hesitant to use potent
chemicals because I grow indoors), and after a long infestation, I
declared
"uncle" and reluctantly got rid of my collection.

Sigh.

Fortunately, I got a nice bonus from my current client, and was able to
start a new collection this winrer. Currently, I have about thirty
NBS/BS
plants (phals, milts, and phrags) in the same den.

This weekend, I was watering my plants and noticed some crud growing in
a
pot (it was a white hairy mold, but I'm not sure exactly what it was)
that
some 1t/G Physan took care of. When I was looking at another plant, I
thought I saw baby mealy bugs (*^$$&&!), but my 18x loupe just revealed
the
I am just paranoid (but I am picking up my low-power stereo microscope
from
my mom just to be sure).

Let me reinforce the fact that I am a bit paranoid about Critters and
Crud
right infecting my orchids. What is the orchid equivalent of a tinfoil
hat?
Bathe in neem-oil?

I am curious as to what people do for preemptive plant maintianence for_
indoor_ growing. I could fog my den with a combo of Orthene, Dianazin,
and
Malthalion and water with 100% Physan, but that is a bit overkill.
My
primary concerns are human/cat health (ie, non-death) and preventing
breeding super bugs / super mold), but I would like to do my best to
prevent
future problems.

Thoughts? Thanks.

--Matt

"Matthew Donadio" wrote in message ...

I am curious as to what people do for preemptive plant maintianence for_
indoor_ growing. I could fog my den with a combo of Orthene, Dianazin, and
Malthalion and water with 100% Physan, but that is a bit overkill. My
primary concerns are human/cat health (ie, non-death) and preventing
breeding super bugs / super mold), but I would like to do my best to prevent
future problems.

"Preventative" treatment with pesticides is just asking for the bugs
to evolve resistance. Carefully screen all new plants and only treat
if you actually see pests.

Since you grow indoors, you have a couple of choices:

1. If the temperature is above 50 F (10 C), take the plants outside
and spray them with whatever pesticide appeals to you. Those with low
toxicity to mammals include pyrethrins and imidicloprid, but you can
use nastier stuff if you wait until the plants are dry and don't let
the cat chew on the leaves. Always follow the manufacturer's
directions regarding protective equipment.

2. If you absolutely cannot put the plants outside, use horticultural
soap, neem oil, or isopropyl rubbing alcohol (don't use ethyl
alcohol).

Spray the same plant several times at intervals of a week or so.
Non-systemics will probably not affect eggs or any bugs that aren't
physically covered. Your previous battle against mealies may have
failed because you gave the few survivors a chance to reproduce. If
you have lots of affected plants, treat the entire collection at the
same time.

Alternate pesticides to minimize evolution of resistance. Bugs are
less likely to become resistant to pesticides with more general
smothering or dessicating action (e.g. alcohol, oils, and soaps).
Pyrethrins can often be rendered useless by a single mutation in the
insects' voltage-gated sodium channel gene.

Mold in the potting mix suggests it may be starting to decay. Instead
of mucking around with physan, repot. I can't remember the last time I
used physan. The occasional patch of mold or little brown mushrooms
just doesn't bother me.

Hope this helps.

Nick

I honestly don't know, Bob, but I suspect it's not 100% effective for that.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

.. . . . . . . . . . .
"Bob Walsh" wrote in message news:QaIoc.39308$xw3.2540937@attbi_s04...
Ray,

Does the alcohol kill the eggs from scale and other critters?

Bob

"Ray" wrote in message
...
Matt,

Generally speaking, preventive chemical applications are to be avoided, as
they lead to the
development of resistant strains of bugs.

The best preemptive moves, in my opinion, are good observational skills
and attentiveness. Do a
periodic close inspection of your collection. It will allow you to see
such problems as they
develop and take quick, but minor action to get rid of the problem.

I find it good to keep a spray bottle of a general purpose, but relatively
innocuous stuff handy on
those inspections - I use Rise & Shine as it kills almost anything and
shines the leaves while
you're at it, but I know the manufacturer, so get a great price! Prior to
coming up with that, I
had a two-weapon arsenal - a spray bottle each of pure isopropanol and
liquid dishwashing detergent
in water.

The white stuff in the medium sounds like it might be a fungus growing in
decomposing medium, a
fairly sure sign that it's time to repot!

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

. . . . . . . . . . .
"Matthew Donadio" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

I am wondering what people do for preemptive critter and crud
prevention.

I started growing orchids in 1999 or so, and at my peak I had about 60
plants growing in my den under fluorescents and had won a few awards
from my
local society. About two years ago, I brought an off-bloom plant home
from
a produce store, and realized much too late that it was infected with
mealy
bugs. I was unable to control the critters (hesitant to use potent
chemicals because I grow indoors), and after a long infestation, I
declared
"uncle" and reluctantly got rid of my collection.

Sigh.

Fortunately, I got a nice bonus from my current client, and was able to
start a new collection this winrer. Currently, I have about thirty
NBS/BS
plants (phals, milts, and phrags) in the same den.

This weekend, I was watering my plants and noticed some crud growing in
a
pot (it was a white hairy mold, but I'm not sure exactly what it was)
that
some 1t/G Physan took care of. When I was looking at another plant, I
thought I saw baby mealy bugs (*^$$&&!), but my 18x loupe just revealed
the
I am just paranoid (but I am picking up my low-power stereo microscope
from
my mom just to be sure).

Let me reinforce the fact that I am a bit paranoid about Critters and
Crud
right infecting my orchids. What is the orchid equivalent of a tinfoil
hat?
Bathe in neem-oil?

I am curious as to what people do for preemptive plant maintianence for_
indoor_ growing. I could fog my den with a combo of Orthene, Dianazin,
and
Malthalion and water with 100% Physan, but that is a bit overkill.
My
primary concerns are human/cat health (ie, non-death) and preventing
breeding super bugs / super mold), but I would like to do my best to
prevent
future problems.

Thoughts? Thanks.

--Matt

Good advice Nick, but please could you explain your quote:-

"Pyrethrins can often be rendered useless by a single mutation in the
insects' voltage-gated sodium channel gene".

Thanks,
--
Cheers Wendy

Remove PETERPAN for email reply

Myrmecodia wrote:
"Matthew Donadio" wrote in message
...

I am curious as to what people do for preemptive plant maintianence
for_ indoor_ growing. I could fog my den with a combo of Orthene,
Dianazin, and Malthalion and water with 100% Physan, but that is a
bit overkill. My primary concerns are human/cat health (ie,
non-death) and preventing breeding super bugs / super mold), but I
would like to do my best to prevent future problems.

"Preventative" treatment with pesticides is just asking for the bugs
to evolve resistance. Carefully screen all new plants and only treat
if you actually see pests.

Since you grow indoors, you have a couple of choices:

1. If the temperature is above 50 F (10 C), take the plants outside
and spray them with whatever pesticide appeals to you. Those with low
toxicity to mammals include pyrethrins and imidicloprid, but you can
use nastier stuff if you wait until the plants are dry and don't let
the cat chew on the leaves. Always follow the manufacturer's
directions regarding protective equipment.

2. If you absolutely cannot put the plants outside, use horticultural
soap, neem oil, or isopropyl rubbing alcohol (don't use ethyl
alcohol).

Spray the same plant several times at intervals of a week or so.
Non-systemics will probably not affect eggs or any bugs that aren't
physically covered. Your previous battle against mealies may have
failed because you gave the few survivors a chance to reproduce. If
you have lots of affected plants, treat the entire collection at the
same time.

Alternate pesticides to minimize evolution of resistance. Bugs are
less likely to become resistant to pesticides with more general
smothering or dessicating action (e.g. alcohol, oils, and soaps).
Pyrethrins can often be rendered useless by a single mutation in the
insects' voltage-gated sodium channel gene.

Mold in the potting mix suggests it may be starting to decay. Instead
of mucking around with physan, repot. I can't remember the last time I
used physan. The occasional patch of mold or little brown mushrooms
just doesn't bother me.

Hope this helps.

Nick

"Ray" wrote in message
...
I find it good to keep a spray bottle of a general purpose, but relatively
innocuous stuff handy on
those inspections - I use Rise & Shine as it kills almost anything and
shines the leaves while
you're at it, but I know the manufacturer, so get a great price! Prior to
coming up with that, I
had a two-weapon arsenal - a spray bottle each of pure isopropanol and
liquid dishwashing detergent
in water.

By pure, do you mean non-diluted? Most drug stores carry 70% and 90% by
volume for first-aid, but I know 100% is fairly available. I have used it
for cleaning electronics.

The white stuff in the medium sounds like it might be a fungus growing in
decomposing medium, a
fairly sure sign that it's time to repot!

All of my plants are in Prime-Agra, so I doubt the medium is decaying.
This partiular plant was previously in sphagnum, and the roots were covered
with a lot of algae. It could be possible that I missed some small bits
when I repotted a few months ago.

Thanks for the advice.

--Matt

Why not ethyl alcohol? Laquer thinner seemed to do the job, too.

Paul

1. If the temperature is above 50 F (10 C), take the plants outside
and spray them with whatever pesticide appeals to you. Those with low
toxicity to mammals include pyrethrins and imidicloprid, but you can
use nastier stuff if you wait until the plants are dry and don't let
the cat chew on the leaves. Always follow the manufacturer's
directions regarding protective equipment.

2. If you absolutely cannot put the plants outside, use horticultural
soap, neem oil, or isopropyl rubbing alcohol (don't use ethyl
alcohol).

Matt,

The most common drug store rubbing alcohol is 70%, and I meant that I use it undiluted. There seems
to be no need for going to the extra expense of others.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

.. . . . . . . . . . .
"Matthew Donadio" wrote in message ...
"Ray" wrote in message
...
I find it good to keep a spray bottle of a general purpose, but relatively
innocuous stuff handy on
those inspections - I use Rise & Shine as it kills almost anything and
shines the leaves while
you're at it, but I know the manufacturer, so get a great price! Prior to
coming up with that, I
had a two-weapon arsenal - a spray bottle each of pure isopropanol and
liquid dishwashing detergent
in water.

By pure, do you mean non-diluted? Most drug stores carry 70% and 90% by
volume for first-aid, but I know 100% is fairly available. I have used it
for cleaning electronics.

The white stuff in the medium sounds like it might be a fungus growing in
decomposing medium, a
fairly sure sign that it's time to repot!

All of my plants are in Prime-Agra, so I doubt the medium is decaying.
This partiular plant was previously in sphagnum, and the roots were covered
with a lot of algae. It could be possible that I missed some small bits
when I repotted a few months ago.

Thanks for the advice.

--Matt

"wendy7" wrote in message news:%ZToc.29105$fE.24424@fed1read02...
Good advice Nick, but please could you explain your quote:-

"Pyrethrins can often be rendered useless by a single mutation in the
insects' voltage-gated sodium channel gene".

Thanks,
--
Cheers Wendy


Voltage-gated sodium channels are proteins that sit in cell membranes
and form pores whick allow sodium ions to flow through. The flow of
sodium ions changes the electrical potential of the membrane, and in
neurons, sodium channels are required for propagation of electrical
signals. Pyrethroid pesticides act by blocking the sodium channels in
the insects' neurons. Basically, they shut down the insects' nervous
system.

But since the interaction between sodium channel and pyrethroid is so
precise, it can easily be disrupted. There are a whole host of simple
mutations that change the shape of the sodium channel sufficiently to
prevent pyrethroid binding while still allowing the protein to
function as a sodium channel. Just one or a few DNA base pair changes
is all that is required.

Other sodium channel blockers include tetrodotoxin, which is the toxin
that makes eating Fugu (puffer fish) in a Japanses restaurant so ...
exciting. The major sodium channels in our own neurons are blocked by
tetrodotoxin. I read somewhere that good Fugu contains just enough
tetrodotoxin to make your lips tingle!

Anway, getting back to insects, the result of all this is that
resistance is more likely to occur with a pesiticide that has a single
mode of action that can be blocked by a single nucleotide substitution
than with something like soap or oil that simply smothers the insects.

If you are interested in learning more, a google search using the
terms "knockdown resistance" and "sodium channel" will probably give
you more information than you could possibly want.

regards,
Nick

1) I have heard of phytotoxicity to ethanol, but have also heard recommendations to use it with
fertilizers...

2) Methanol is a known absorption accelerator, a la Jerry's Grow.

3) While I have desiccated buds by spraying way too much, I have never killed a plant with
isopropanol.

--

Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com
Plants, Supplies, Books, Artwork, and Lots of Free Info!

.. . . . . . . . . . .
"Myrmecodia" wrote in message
om...
"Paul Simon" wrote in message
...
Why not ethyl alcohol? Laquer thinner seemed to do the job, too.


I managed to kill a very large specimen of Paphiopedilum fowlei by
spraying it with ethyl alcohol. When I asked why on the old Orchid
List Digest, I was told that ethyl and methyl alcohol will penetrate
plant tissue more easily than isopropyl alcohol. Perhaps the effect
depends on the orchid leaves (soft paphs versus hard and leathery
cattleyas), but I've never had any trouble with isopropanol, so why
risk it?

As always, test a single leaf before spraying the entire plant

Nick

"Paul Simon" wrote in message ...
Why not ethyl alcohol? Laquer thinner seemed to do the job, too.


I managed to kill a very large specimen of Paphiopedilum fowlei by
spraying it with ethyl alcohol. When I asked why on the old Orchid
List Digest, I was told that ethyl and methyl alcohol will penetrate
plant tissue more easily than isopropyl alcohol. Perhaps the effect
depends on the orchid leaves (soft paphs versus hard and leathery
cattleyas), but I've never had any trouble with isopropanol, so why
risk it?

As always, test a single leaf before spraying the entire plant

Nick

"Myrmecodia" wrote in message
om...
"Preventative" treatment with pesticides is just asking for the bugs
to evolve resistance. Carefully screen all new plants and only treat
if you actually see pests.

I know my lesson now. I only buy from a few growers who I trust...

Alternate pesticides to minimize evolution of resistance. Bugs are
less likely to become resistant to pesticides with more general
smothering or dessicating action (e.g. alcohol, oils, and soaps).
Pyrethrins can often be rendered useless by a single mutation in the
insects' voltage-gated sodium channel gene.

I think this was my problem. I was dabbing the bugs with alcohol, and
spraying using a product that had pyrethrins.

Mold in the potting mix suggests it may be starting to decay. Instead
of mucking around with physan, repot. I can't remember the last time I
used physan. The occasional patch of mold or little brown mushrooms
just doesn't bother me.

All of my plants are in Prime-Agra, so I doubt that it is decaying.
This partiular plant was previously in sphagnum, and the roots were covered
with algae. It could be possible that I missed some small bits when I
repotted a few months ago.

Thanks for the tips.

--Matt